Not at all actually, although it depends is the real answer. Elesh norn is a viable cut for example, but in the end there are really only 3 bad bob reveals. 3 of 60, Those are still good odds at missing. I also play bob alongside FoW.
The draw to burn was that it goes to the face. I wanted more burn in the deck and firebolt was the space saving compromise since it is 2 spells as I will never entomb for it. Dark blast had crossed my mind, but like I was saying, I like that burn can go to the face.
If you want Face, you should play Forked Bolt. It's also sorcery speed for R but does one of the following:
1) 2 to dome (like Firebolt)
2) kills an X/2 (like Firebolt)
3) kills two X/1s (Firebolt cannot do)
4) kills one X/1 and 1 to dome (Firebolt cannot do)
How often do you expect to both hit 5 lands in an 18 land deck AND draw Firebolt? So you're basically picking Firebolt for the corner case that you might somehow hit 5 mana over the increased utility of being able to do everything a single Firebolt can do but also perform better against X/1s.
Firebolt has not been in the deck for some time. 5 mana is achieveable with DRS. Firebolt can also be entombed.
But beyond that, while I will pretend to appreciate your input, you really need to read through to the recent stuff.
To be fair, I did read all the posts. But the last few are just sideboard discussion, the OP isn't up-to-date, and the last maindeck from you is on page 1 (not radically different from the OP list). Firebolt wasn't in the list, but you didn't comment on removing it. So maybe it was a flex slot, maybe you weren't convinced it didn't belong, maybe you were thinking about adding it back in, or maybe it was already added back in by now? Given how much you were arguing for it before, it wasn't clear it was a permanent cut.
PS - you had mentioned that in testing you don't realistically Entomb for Firebolt. And 5 mana is possible with DRS but not easy. Compared to the relatively high chance of an opponent having an X/1 (Bob, unflipped Delver, Lavamancer, Thalia, Mom, two spirit tokens, etc.), it should be clear that the upsides I posted have a higher probability than you hitting 5 mana AND wanting to spend it on flashing back Firebolt. You can choose to ignore the input, but the evidence is there.
Anyway, neither is also fine.
PS - I vote Iona over Sire. Sire might beat non-blue decks, but blue decks can topdeck an answer OR a cantrip into an answer, which makes their topdecks way too dangerous. Better to just shut out their answers for good. Plus, Sire can randomly be stopped from attacking by a single Goyf while Iona usually ends the game in a few turns.
While I did like the enlightened tutor plan, this dudes/spells plan seems better. Also pack rat is a house. Playing this in the tournament today also reminded me that I can play off my deck well which does make a case for sire over Iona. Also of note is the zealous/marsh slot. I think I still prefer marsh for the potential to kill 2 toughness creatures. Persecution is good but it almost feels like its win more.
The point of contention again seems to be the desire for a 19th land again. While I played my round 4 game on 1 land and a DRS quite successfully, I feel like the 19th land would have helped. It's awkward since there is a low curve present and getting flooded is awful, but mana screw is much worse. It may be something I will have to look into again. The current thought is an undiscovered paradise for some added bloodghast triggers and mana fixing.
DRS has multiple functions. It's a win con, more of a mana fixer then ramper, and sometimes it gains you life. The key part is that it takes one slot to give the deck all that flexibility.
Bloodghast is notably an answer to edict effects. Spending life to reanimate a creature makes any non STP removal potentially quite devastating. That said it does also help fuel therapy blow outs. It also helps flash back dread return. His blocking isn't a relevant factor as most of your plays should be more powerful. Bloodghast and equipment for example should be able to win on its own.
No exhume. Reanimation isn't the main plan, but it does create an extremely broken plan to go along with the fair plan. Also reanimate hits any graveyard. The relevance there is quite huge. I've actually reanimated my opponents delvers on numerous occasions. And to point to it again, we can entomb a reanimation spell if needed.
And to touch on it again, the white splash is what differentiates this from young frankenstein. The addition of stoneforge makes all the weaker threats into problems. It also opens up very strong sideboard options.
EDIT
I forgot to touch on looting/white splash, or rather a notable point. The deck is effectively a BR deck. You can actually hide the white splash in game 1 and really throw people off. This indirectly ties in with looting. Faithless looting really helps you key in on a plan by exchanging bad cards for the cards you require while still keeping other options open. I've mentioned it before I believe, but in one tournament I seamlessly moved from DRS, to young pyro, to Reanimator, to SFM all from one turn to the next. Each plan requiring different hate. That is hard enough for prepared decks to deal with. That is the power of the deck.
Paying 7 life to draw cards isn't as helpful here. You aren't drawing into reactive spells like in show and tell. You aren't losing to terminus either. If you stick a Griselbrand you should win anyway by just having it ATTACK and do nothing else. Because of the YP plan you don't have to commit a lot to the board. And the reanimation plan is off of one guy, usually grave titan for being a 2 turn clock. Iona is really their for combo or mono coloured decks like burn because grave titan is almost always better.
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I was designing the deck to have good top decks. Burn, while not a great example here, is built around redundancy and a minimized mana base. Part of the idea is that you will get the minimal amount of mana you need and then knowing the next card doesn't matter. All top decks have a high percentage of winning the game. While I'm not packing that kind of redundancy, I do pack more business spells. Instead of drawing a brainstorm that only digs I am instead drawing a threat. There is no problem with playing "blind" as you put it.
I don't care for top here especially when game 2 I can replace reanimation with dark confidant and similar.
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I am off and on. It's a problem because I brew a lot. As it is I want to work monestary mentor into the deck, possibly just replacing YP. I like that it's a better clock then YP and still does what I wanted YP to do.
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I do not. I was quite happy with where it was. Even just thinking about the games I was able to play while being mana screwed was something. It ain't broke, don't fix it is where I'm at.
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I gotta give this deck a whirl. I must admit I've glanced at it once before and to be honest it looked like a pile of random non-blue Legacy staples without any focus. Looking back at it again I see where you are going WeaponX. Your deck building style is unique, I like it. Maybe I can learn a thing or two. A couple of questions.
Not sure if you have room, but Tithe seems not shabby here. It rounds out your mana base and also pumps out dudes to YP.
I see you've cut Liliana for Vindicate. IMO, Liliana does much more than Vindicate. Especially in this deck. You can use her as an outlet for your fatties and your flashback spells, she disrupts, plus she still counts as three removal slots. I'm always underwhelmed with Vindicate. In my experience it is simply an expensive removal option and usually gets countered.
I'll play your list as it is. These are simply question from someone with zero experience playing the deck. Your list looks f*%#ing bonkers! Props on ingenuity and originality.
Not to toot my own horn but I feel like an unsung hero with respect to deck building. I tend to get a lot of [play scg list] kind of comments with no comprehension of why choices were made.
It's been a while but I think I considered tithe. My main issue was that I wanted to look like a BR deck. The white cards were so minimized that it was easy to hide something like a stoneforge until game two where the graveyard related package could be removed for silver bullets as an example. When mentor came out there was a reason to make it white heavy. The reason for not is simply that BR is better for reanimator, as a strategy it can steal game 1.
Vindicate. That was the generic answer I went with. It could have been oblivion ring, but the draw to vindicate was the ability to hit land. I've played the deck being mana screwed off of a deathrite and land over numerous turns in one game. My threats are better then most of what any opponent is doing. Because of this ability to play off of minimal mana, sometimes the right play is to attack the mana of your opponent. I feel a need to bring that up with most people trying to cut land for cantrips. Spinning wheels doesn't win a game.
Liliana is a card I wanted main. Hell, pack rat is worth main decking in here. Finding the correct spot has proven difficult. Vindicate is the best candidate, but it should be in the 75. It's too valuable. A case could be made for it becoming councils judgement however. Like most things, meta game is a factor.
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I gave a few solitaire test spins on tappedout.com, it's really fun and it top decks nicely with a large variety of options. It's definitely a deck that you need to play a few times to get the hang of. You really need to know it backwards and forwards. After a few spins I began to see why certain card choices were included. I like your take on Vindicate as a slot to take advantage of opponent's mana screw.
Although Thoughtseize doesn't draw you cards I almost want to see it in the Gitaxian Probe slot. Both synergize well with Therapy but I feel the deck is a bit light on the hand disruption. My play style is to first pick apart my opponent's hand and then deal with board later. As much as I want to run 56 card decks I always have trouble squeezing GPs in there.
Since I've been recently playing a lot of home-brew Mardu decks (Pyromancer Pox, Mardu Deathblade and Burning Reanimator) I actually own most of these cards so I might take it to Knightware in Los Angeles sometime next month and see how it does. The average tourneys out there range between 50-80 players regularly and the meta is extremely competitive. I might have to give it a few Cockatrice tests to familiarize myself with the match ups first.
EDIT: BTW, Elesh Norn is a beast with Pyromancer and Grave Titan tokens. I didn't notice that synergy while looking at the list, I just happened upon it in test spins. Fun deck!
Sweet deck list. I've been looking at Bride of Young Frankenstein for awhile now, and I'm thinking of putting it together. There are a couple of new cards I've been looking at though. What are your thoughts on Collective Brutality and Painful Truths? Collective Brutality let's us remove delvers, DRS, duress, and put reanimation targets into the grave from our hand. Painful Truths allows for some card draw at the low cost of 3 life, and we're going to be able to produce 3 different types often. This would probably constrain us to Young Pyromancer as to not load up too heavily on 3 drops. Also a CB discarding cabal therapy could be gas with a YP out.
Thank you. It's been a while since I first put this idea to paper and loved all the options that were available to it. Brutality is a card that I want to play and this could be a great home home for it. I did find my life to be an issue at times so it could be the thoughtseize the deck has needed. Not a fan of painful truths. The skeletal scrying I wanted to play still feels better. Come to think of it fatal push seems perfect for this deck.
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Glad you enjoyed it and had a good outing. I always wanted to tweak the mana as I've been stuck on 2 lands more then I'd like... but the deck functions there. I have been wanting to update for some time. Mathas is something I really want to try here is I feel it does so many things that I want in a single card. Otherwise that 3 pronged attack is why I loved this deck. On top of that most of the cards are good on their own.
My only concern with my build was my life total. The deck can be harsh there and is why I wanted green for DRS. Mathas is something I feel can help there while being a threat. Collective brutality feels like a card the deck is missing and needs. And kolghans command can also do some work. If I get a chance perhaps I can go back to this deck. There are a lot of old ideas I would like to revisit.
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The banning of Deathrite Shaman and Gitaxian Probe really hurt, but I still like this deck, so I've been tinkering with a list incorporating Arclight Phoenix that I like to call Bird of Young Frankenstein.
I haven't had a good chance to test it outside of some goldfishing, but this is where I'm at. Arclight Phoenix would have been better with Probe, but it still seems plenty strong without it. It plays really nicely with Cabal Therapy and you do get occasional nut draws with 2-3 phoenixes coming out on turn 2. The only thing I'm not a fan of is the 2 copies of Surgical Extraction, but free spells are pretty strong here with both phoenix and Young Pyromancer.
If you want Face, you should play Forked Bolt. It's also sorcery speed for R but does one of the following:
1) 2 to dome (like Firebolt)
2) kills an X/2 (like Firebolt)
3) kills two X/1s (Firebolt cannot do)
4) kills one X/1 and 1 to dome (Firebolt cannot do)
How often do you expect to both hit 5 lands in an 18 land deck AND draw Firebolt? So you're basically picking Firebolt for the corner case that you might somehow hit 5 mana over the increased utility of being able to do everything a single Firebolt can do but also perform better against X/1s.
Firebolt has not been in the deck for some time. 5 mana is achieveable with DRS. Firebolt can also be entombed.
But beyond that, while I will pretend to appreciate your input, you really need to read through to the recent stuff.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
To be fair, I did read all the posts. But the last few are just sideboard discussion, the OP isn't up-to-date, and the last maindeck from you is on page 1 (not radically different from the OP list). Firebolt wasn't in the list, but you didn't comment on removing it. So maybe it was a flex slot, maybe you weren't convinced it didn't belong, maybe you were thinking about adding it back in, or maybe it was already added back in by now? Given how much you were arguing for it before, it wasn't clear it was a permanent cut.
PS - you had mentioned that in testing you don't realistically Entomb for Firebolt. And 5 mana is possible with DRS but not easy. Compared to the relatively high chance of an opponent having an X/1 (Bob, unflipped Delver, Lavamancer, Thalia, Mom, two spirit tokens, etc.), it should be clear that the upsides I posted have a higher probability than you hitting 5 mana AND wanting to spend it on flashing back Firebolt. You can choose to ignore the input, but the evidence is there.
Anyway, neither is also fine.
PS - I vote Iona over Sire. Sire might beat non-blue decks, but blue decks can topdeck an answer OR a cantrip into an answer, which makes their topdecks way too dangerous. Better to just shut out their answers for good. Plus, Sire can randomly be stopped from attacking by a single Goyf while Iona usually ends the game in a few turns.
4 young pyromancer
2 stoneforge mystic
1 elesh norn
1 grave Titan
1 bloodghast
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
4 entomb
4 reanimate
4 lightning bolt
3 vindicate
1 dread return
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
3 faithless looting
4 badlands
3 marsh flats
1 bayou
2 scrubland
1 plateau
1 plains
1 swamp
1 mountain
3 dark confidant
3 pack rat
3 lightning helix
2 swords to plowshares
1 marsh casualties / zealous persecution
1 ancient grudge
1 Iona, shield of emeria
1 surgical extraction
While I did like the enlightened tutor plan, this dudes/spells plan seems better. Also pack rat is a house. Playing this in the tournament today also reminded me that I can play off my deck well which does make a case for sire over Iona. Also of note is the zealous/marsh slot. I think I still prefer marsh for the potential to kill 2 toughness creatures. Persecution is good but it almost feels like its win more.
The point of contention again seems to be the desire for a 19th land again. While I played my round 4 game on 1 land and a DRS quite successfully, I feel like the 19th land would have helped. It's awkward since there is a low curve present and getting flooded is awful, but mana screw is much worse. It may be something I will have to look into again. The current thought is an undiscovered paradise for some added bloodghast triggers and mana fixing.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Bloodghast is notably an answer to edict effects. Spending life to reanimate a creature makes any non STP removal potentially quite devastating. That said it does also help fuel therapy blow outs. It also helps flash back dread return. His blocking isn't a relevant factor as most of your plays should be more powerful. Bloodghast and equipment for example should be able to win on its own.
No exhume. Reanimation isn't the main plan, but it does create an extremely broken plan to go along with the fair plan. Also reanimate hits any graveyard. The relevance there is quite huge. I've actually reanimated my opponents delvers on numerous occasions. And to point to it again, we can entomb a reanimation spell if needed.
And to touch on it again, the white splash is what differentiates this from young frankenstein. The addition of stoneforge makes all the weaker threats into problems. It also opens up very strong sideboard options.
EDIT
I forgot to touch on looting/white splash, or rather a notable point. The deck is effectively a BR deck. You can actually hide the white splash in game 1 and really throw people off. This indirectly ties in with looting. Faithless looting really helps you key in on a plan by exchanging bad cards for the cards you require while still keeping other options open. I've mentioned it before I believe, but in one tournament I seamlessly moved from DRS, to young pyro, to Reanimator, to SFM all from one turn to the next. Each plan requiring different hate. That is hard enough for prepared decks to deal with. That is the power of the deck.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
I don't care for top here especially when game 2 I can replace reanimation with dark confidant and similar.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
Not sure if you have room, but Tithe seems not shabby here. It rounds out your mana base and also pumps out dudes to YP.
I see you've cut Liliana for Vindicate. IMO, Liliana does much more than Vindicate. Especially in this deck. You can use her as an outlet for your fatties and your flashback spells, she disrupts, plus she still counts as three removal slots. I'm always underwhelmed with Vindicate. In my experience it is simply an expensive removal option and usually gets countered.
I'll play your list as it is. These are simply question from someone with zero experience playing the deck. Your list looks f*%#ing bonkers! Props on ingenuity and originality.
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
It's been a while but I think I considered tithe. My main issue was that I wanted to look like a BR deck. The white cards were so minimized that it was easy to hide something like a stoneforge until game two where the graveyard related package could be removed for silver bullets as an example. When mentor came out there was a reason to make it white heavy. The reason for not is simply that BR is better for reanimator, as a strategy it can steal game 1.
Vindicate. That was the generic answer I went with. It could have been oblivion ring, but the draw to vindicate was the ability to hit land. I've played the deck being mana screwed off of a deathrite and land over numerous turns in one game. My threats are better then most of what any opponent is doing. Because of this ability to play off of minimal mana, sometimes the right play is to attack the mana of your opponent. I feel a need to bring that up with most people trying to cut land for cantrips. Spinning wheels doesn't win a game.
Liliana is a card I wanted main. Hell, pack rat is worth main decking in here. Finding the correct spot has proven difficult. Vindicate is the best candidate, but it should be in the 75. It's too valuable. A case could be made for it becoming councils judgement however. Like most things, meta game is a factor.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Although Thoughtseize doesn't draw you cards I almost want to see it in the Gitaxian Probe slot. Both synergize well with Therapy but I feel the deck is a bit light on the hand disruption. My play style is to first pick apart my opponent's hand and then deal with board later. As much as I want to run 56 card decks I always have trouble squeezing GPs in there.
Since I've been recently playing a lot of home-brew Mardu decks (Pyromancer Pox, Mardu Deathblade and Burning Reanimator) I actually own most of these cards so I might take it to Knightware in Los Angeles sometime next month and see how it does. The average tourneys out there range between 50-80 players regularly and the meta is extremely competitive. I might have to give it a few Cockatrice tests to familiarize myself with the match ups first.
EDIT: BTW, Elesh Norn is a beast with Pyromancer and Grave Titan tokens. I didn't notice that synergy while looking at the list, I just happened upon it in test spins. Fun deck!
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
My only concern with my build was my life total. The deck can be harsh there and is why I wanted green for DRS. Mathas is something I feel can help there while being a threat. Collective brutality feels like a card the deck is missing and needs. And kolghans command can also do some work. If I get a chance perhaps I can go back to this deck. There are a lot of old ideas I would like to revisit.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Marsh Flats
2x Arid Mesa
2x Mountain
1x Plateau
2x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Collective Brutality
1x Dread Return
4x Faithless Looting
3x Lingering Souls
4x Reanimate
Creature (11)
4x Arclight Phoenix
1x Bloodghast
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Grave Titan
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Entomb
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Surgical Extraction
I haven't had a good chance to test it outside of some goldfishing, but this is where I'm at. Arclight Phoenix would have been better with Probe, but it still seems plenty strong without it. It plays really nicely with Cabal Therapy and you do get occasional nut draws with 2-3 phoenixes coming out on turn 2. The only thing I'm not a fan of is the 2 copies of Surgical Extraction, but free spells are pretty strong here with both phoenix and Young Pyromancer.
Lingering Souls was added in because it plays nicely with Faithless Looting, Collective Brutality, Cabal Therapy and Dread Return in addition to increasing spell density for phoenix.
This list cut Stoneforge Mystic (which could be wrong), but I wanted more slots to play with, so she's sitting out for the moment.
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