I don't know my meta exactly. But many players play blue, one plays Resurection, one plays Birds, some play Elfs, one or two play goblin, one plays Zoo, some play RDW, one Hakon and one play BW Stoneblade and some play casual White-Agro (most Soldiers).
I recently started Magic again (after a 3 years break) and now I wanted to make a competitive deck with limited ressources. Because I like humans and knights and it's not nearly as expansive as Stoneblade I want to try a knight theme (mono when possible).
I think Vial Knights will perform above average in your meta. There is not much of a difference between GW and W Vial Knights other than GW giving the deck better answers to artifact/enchantment and more options in sideboarding. I'll just state some of the matchups against the decks in your meta below:
Against Blue
Against blue (I assume mono-blue or blue with a small black/white splash), Aether Vial always give them a massive problem, the first turn Vial and early stoneforge mystic always give them a big headache. When resolved, it's usually a stroll to victory. If I'm on the draw, I'll usually cast a Student of Warfare to lure their Daze or counters before dropping Vial next turn. Sword of Fire and Ice is great asset against their JTMS, bounce effects etc.
Granted many of my examples are with Aether Vial but I'm just trying to protray how easy it is when we have an active vial. Otherwise even without the Vial we are able to come up with answers against different types of blue decks as depicted above (but open to being countered). With opening hand Vial, our chances of winning can be as high as 70%, without them, we probably still have around 40% winning chance.
Against Ressurection
Are you referring to Reanimator? Against combo deck like this we need to sideboard in graveyard hate. We are never going to stand much of a chance if they reanimate the likes of Jin-Gitaxias or Ionas on the second turn...
One thing bad for knights is it's weakness against combo but that said, any deck without blue is bad against combo and that includes even Zoo & Maverick decks.
Against Zoo
See who can out-aggro who first, Zoo is definitely better. They are not Tier one for nothing.
Against other tribes
Against Birds, try to get equipments early and StP their creatures early so we'll have sufficient life to utilise the swords when they come online. Goblins is a easy matchup unless they get a god hand. Our first strike knights usually hold them back from attacking, and dropping a SoFI end games quickly. There are a few variants of Elves (Combo,Aggro,NO) around and I have not seen them for the longest time.
Knights are superior to soldiers no questions asked.
Knights generally has a favorable matchup against other tribes, I usually like to have games against them. I played in a few competitive Legacy tournaments in my LGS before and I always do well against other Tribal decks. Merfolk and Goblin are in fact one of my favorite matchup but unfortunately we don't see much of them anymore.
I hope the above is useful for you. Actually I think we share the same sentiments towards returning to magic. I came back after 12 years from the game and was blown off by the high prices and investment required to make a Tier 1 deck. I have always love knight creature cards, way back to the iconic Black Knight / White Knight in 1995(when i first started playing). I decided I needed something competitive even if not Top Tier and yet within reasonable investment, and so far I'm pretty happy with the results I get from Knights Tribal.
Yeah, thanks buddy. I try to collect the cards for a knight deck. With the Deck "Knights vs Dragons" I have a good raw deck. Now I bought the vials, the swords and the Stoneforge Mystics. It gets shape^^.
Since you already brought Vial, Swords and SFM, just buying 2 of the "Knights Vs Dragon" deck and it seems you only need to increase Exemplar up to 4 to get a competitive knight deck going.
How is your list so far? You might want to maindeck a few Leonin Relic-Warder for some answers against troublesome artifacts or enchantments.
Hi. Now i´m back after a little break from magic.
Glad to see that misstep is banned. Tweaked my :symg::symw: Vial-Knight deck and entered a local tournament (4 round swiss).
After a horrible misstake due to to many hours without sleep i lost the semi-final and ended on 3rd place.
I thought I would walk you through the tournament and talk a little bit about the matchups.
The sideboard was put together in last minute with card i had in my collection.
First matchup - Tribal Wizard Control (2 - 0)
This decks strategy was to lock down and then slowly beat down the opponent with random wizards.
It was a very slow deck with no chance against my knights.
First game i got Knight of the Reliquary online with a SoFI very fast pumping him really big while fetching fetch and then fetch again.
With 2 Mother of Runes protecting him. No need to sideboard for second game.
Next game, turn 3 Batterskull and then it was pretty much game.
Second matchup - Affinity Post (1 - 1)
This was i deck i never thought i would meet, it played Cloudpost and a bunch of myr-creatures. First game he scooped after a turn 3 Batterskull and a turn 4 Elspeth.
Sideboarded out all mothers and in with Pridemage, Armageddon and Leyline.
Second game he went online with a unlimited damadge combo turn 4. I had no answer at all.
Last game we both locked each other down after my armageddon hit the table. And the game went to time.
Third matchup - Burn (2 - 1)
Not much to say about this deck. Lots of bolts and a few fast evil goblins.
Thought i was going to be run over but in the first game he drew lousy and with two mothers on the board protecting my knights it was a easy win.
Sideboarded in Silver Knight, Leyline and Brave the Elements.
Game two was a different experience. His first drop was a Goblin Guide and then came the fury. One bolt after the other.
Did not draw any of the cards i sideboarded in but I was only one turn away from winning when he finnished me off with a Lava Spike i think.
Game three i topdecked like a god. Turn 1: Vial, Turn 2: Vial in Mother the pass, In his upkeep Orim's Chant which results in him passing,
Turn 3: Vial in Silver Knight then pass, in his upkeep Orim's Chant again, he passes, Turn 4: Leyline of Sanctity, and then he scooped.
Fourth matchup - Enchantress (0 - 2)
This was the deck that ended up winning the tournament. This game didn´t matter so much because I was already qualified for the final 4.
This deck was horrible to play against, locked me down very fast and then I could only lean back and watch him play with him self until he won.
I needed something to eat before the semi-final so i scooped pretty fast in game 2.
Semi-final - Reanimator (1 - 2)
Pretty nice matchup, very fun game to play.
He didn´t draw so good in the first game and i ended up beating him down with Mirran Crusader + Sword of Fire and Ice.
Second game i knew that he was going for that Iona, Shield of Emeria in his sideboard. So I sideboarded in all my Phyrexian Metamorphs.
I drew some pretty lousy hands in the begining of the second game. Had to mulligan down to 4 cards.
Think he played Iona (said white) round 2 and i was desperately drawing for a Metamorph or Karakas. No luck there.
Third game i drew a decent hand and he drew gold. Round 2 Iona again. But here is where i made my big mistake that cost me the game.
I did not realize i had a Swords to Plowshares with one mana available. I could have played it in Iona when here triggered ability still were on the stack.
And of course no Metamorph or Karakas in sight.
Summary
Very fun tournament never the less and I love my knight deck.
The synergy between Knight of the Reliquary, Horizon Canopy, Wasteland and fetch-lands is really nice. He grows fast, really fast and with a sword he is deadly.
Not playing first is not a really big problem with this deck either because Knight of the White Orchid round 2 usually gives you the upper hand.
Please tell me what you think of the deck.
Nice to see another Knight deck doing well in legacy tournaments. Also, thanks for sharing with us your tournament report and decklist.
On your decklist, I'm just a little curious about the 2x Orim's Chant. It looks a little random here.;) Any particular reasons for running it?
I'm not really in favor of Kinsbaile Cavalier anymore, and would rather increase Mother of Runes to 4. A resolved Mother is akin to what Kira, Great Glass-Spinner does for Merfolk and she plays a very big role here to protect our creatures from removals especially with Snapcaster Mage flashbacking removals more often than ever.
I'll also try to find space for at least one Sword of Light and Shadow. It shut down so many removals spells it is really godly in my meta at the moment.
Initally I was bewildered with the singleton Bayou in the maindeck, until I realised you had Perish in the sideboard. Anyway you mentioned the sideboard was hastily formed so I won't go too much into it.
Seems that you were quite unlucky in the matchup against Reanimator but well at least you had the answers in your deck. It beats playing against a deck knowing it is an auto-loss.
All in all, I'm wouldnt mind taking your decklist if I have a tournament tomorrow. Also it's good you enjoyed playing with the knight deck. IMO it is the most enjoyable tribal deck I have played so far.
One question: When I play 20 Lands, I've got the problem, that I often don't get the 4th land for my Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Should I cut her?
I find 20 land to be too low when running out 4-drops, particularly a win-con like Elspeth. I run ~20-21 mana sources and my curve tops out at 3, with Vial doing most of the heavy lifting. Do you have an updated list so we can take a better look?
One question: When I play 20 Lands, I've got the problem, that I often don't get the 4th land for my Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Should I cut her?
I believe you should have a few Knight of the White Orchid from the "Knights Vs Dragons" Set, are you running enough copies of him? He is really good in helping us reach our 3rd and 4th mana.
Generally I don't face the problem of being unable to cast Elspeth, Knight-Errant regularly. Is your meta too fast so much so you simply dont have the chance to slowly curve into Elspeth? I wouldnt want to cut her out because she fits well into the deck strategy and also provides an alternative win-con.
I find 20 land to be too low when running out 4-drops, particularly a win-con like Elspeth. I run ~20-21 mana sources and my curve tops out at 3, with Vial doing most of the heavy lifting. Do you have an updated list so we can take a better look?
I'm quite comfortable with playing 20 lands, and with only 2 cards (Elspeth, Knight-Errant) going above 3 mana I usually have my 4th mana by the time I draw her or either then my mana curve out perfectly for me to cast Elspeth.
I realise I can actually depend on Knight of the White Orchid resolving to obtain the additional land. Otherwise an active Knight of the Reliquary can also generate 4 mana (from 3 lands in play) by tapping the soon to be sacrificed land for mana first.
Like AEIOUsometimesY said, it will be best if you can show us your updated decklist so we can look at the whole picture and identify which part is lacking.
Is Emrakul prevalent enough that you need to run Journey to Nowhere in the main deck? If Emrakul is the main reason, Oblivion Ring would serve the same purpose but handle other threats as well. Sure, it costs 3 instead of 2, but when you are running Journey as a 2-of, it's not like you can count on seeing it by turn 2 or 3 when you need it, anyway.
but the thing is, against those decks where Oring is actually relevant, you probably wont be able to sneak it through (bluewithFOW.dec), so i suppose Journey to Nowhere would actually be better, as it costs less.
Unfortunately if he has an FOW as backup there's really nothing much we can do. If Emrakul is the main reason for running the likes of Journey to Nowhere or Oblivion Ring, personally I would prefer Phyrexian Metamorph. Metamorph can also be aimed at Iona as well.
Really? So instead of running removals we run metamorph? How is that absolutely better considering if they go off they'll have multiple counterspells? Both sure lose in those situations, but i think 2 mana removal is better than 3 mana 2 life! You ARE more resilient to daze after all... Lol damien
Really? So instead of running removals we run metamorph? How is that absolutely better considering if they go off they'll have multiple counterspells? Both sure lose in those situations, but i think 2 mana removal is better than 3 mana 2 life! You ARE more resilient to daze after all... Lol damien
Like Ignithas pointed out, Phyrexian Metamorph can copy a very popular reanimator target in Iona, Shield of Emeria unlike the typical W removal which is totally invalidated with Iona's arrival. Likewise, it can also stop Sneak Attack/Show & Tell decks which usually drop Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into the battlefield. Also, it can copy Progenitus in those Natural Order/Elves decks etc
There are some matchups which I accepted Knights are not going to win (Show & Tell/ Reanimator), that's also partly why they are Tier One. They invalidate all aggro so any discussion on them is moot really.
That said, Metamorph gives us an out, a chance. If opponents have plenty of countermagic available there's nothing much we can do. At the very least the opponent has to ensure they have counters in order to pull it off successfully - which might give us a little time to do our things? On the other hand they might make a mistake which we can capitalise with our Metamorph. Sometimes things like this make a difference....Winston? LOL
Because Phyrexian Metamorph can copy Knight Exemplar and dangerous monsters from the oponent. He isn't effected by Iona, Shield of Emeria. The only downside is his mana cost, which is very dominant in any knight decks.
That's right, with Iona being a very popular reanimator target, Metamorph is our only out against them. Metamorph can be hard-casted on the third turn, or vialed in on the fifth turn? If reanimator/show & tell decks are slow off the blocks, we could very well evade their countermagic by vialing in Metamorph to stop their legendary creatures.
Your creature choices looks solid. However 6 equipments seems to many and will clog up your hand unnecessary. I suggest cutting it to 4, with Stoneforge Mystic around, you could use her to tutor for relevant equipments thus there is no need to pack so many different equipments.
I also realise you do not have any solutions against artifacts/enchantments at all. Perhaps Serenity, Leonin Relic-Warder or even Disenchant might go into the sideboard somehow?
In your sideboard(which is meta dependent), I feel you should run only either Retribution of the Meek or Phyrexian Metamorph, not both. Both of them have the same target - big legendary creatures so perhaps a mixture will do be fine. Running 7 pieces is overkill IMO.
Would some casual feedback be o.k. in this thread? Nabbydian has created a casual primer, but no posts were added to it, and this one seems to garner traffic.
My story is I acquired 4 Duel Decks Knights vs. Dragons for a heavy discount, and I could not pass up the deal. I'd like to take these four decks, my 4 Marsh flats, purchase some more cards such as Student of Warfare and Sunpetal Grove (just examples), and create a decent casual deck.
I'm a pretty heavy "Timmy" so I'd like to employ two flavorful themes that are fun and ensure I don't run off and overpower my casual meta; some feedback on these themes and card choices would be fantastic. I'm not enslaved to the themes, though. The first theme is the awesome variance of abilities that the Duel Deck had. Indestructible, Lifelink, Double Strike, Trample, First Strike, etc. The abilities are the only reason I want to play this tribe.
The second theme I like is the nature of cards that protect the Knights so they can do their job and use those abilities: Sejiri Steppe, Harm's Way and Brave the Elements are examples of this theme that come to mind. Would a deck with those cards or cards similar to those for the spell-base offer enough utility/support for the deck to do its job? I'd like to avoid spot removal for some variety in my decks - I have a lot of black decks that employ heavy spot removal. Wrath effects might be cool with Knight Exemplar though. I figured I'd toss in 2-3 Loxodon Warhammer as well.
I do not mind taking the initiative and making a list after some feedback but I don't know a single thing about mana bases. I really appreciate any help anyone can offer.
I have only 4 equipment. The black equipment aren't in the deck, I only switch them in instead of Sword of Feast an Famine when I know my enemys and/or are in the mood for it.
In my current meta, there isn't an artifact deck, so I boarded out my Leonin Relic-Warder. My sideboard is against my meta, where many people play combo, which I want to hardcounter after game one. Also I want to counter elves, which isn't possible with Metamorph.
My bad, I see wrongly :embarrass:.
I have not played against Elves in ages. Everyone and their grandmother is playing U nowadays, previously it was Mental Mistep Mania, now its Snapcaster Mania.
Would some casual feedback be o.k. in this thread? Nabbydian has created a casual primer, but no posts were added to it, and this one seems to garner traffic.
I probably posted my casual primer in the "wrong" forum. I should have pasted it in "Casual Magic" which is more active and has a much higher readership. The Budget forum in Legacy is pretty dead. From my observations it seems like the better players do not even go in at all and the casual players visit other sub-forums mostly. I don't know if the moderators would be willing to move that thread over to the Casual Magic forum.
My story is I acquired 4 Duel Decks Knights vs. Dragons for a heavy discount, and I could not pass up the deal. I'd like to take these four decks, my 4 Marsh flats, purchase some more cards such as Student of Warfare and Sunpetal Grove (just examples), and create a decent casual deck.
I'm a pretty heavy "Timmy" so I'd like to employ two flavorful themes that are fun and ensure I don't run off and overpower my casual meta; some feedback on these themes and card choices would be fantastic. I'm not enslaved to the themes, though. The first theme is the awesome variance of abilities that the Duel Deck had. Indestructible, Lifelink, Double Strike, Trample, First Strike, etc. The abilities are the only reason I want to play this tribe.
The second theme I like is the nature of cards that protect the Knights so they can do their job and use those abilities: Sejiri Steppe, Harm's Way and Brave the Elements are examples of this theme that come to mind. Would a deck with those cards or cards similar to those for the spell-base offer enough utility/support for the deck to do its job? I'd like to avoid spot removal for some variety in my decks - I have a lot of black decks that employ heavy spot removal. Wrath effects might be cool with Knight Exemplar though. I figured I'd toss in 2-3 Loxodon Warhammer as well.
I do not mind taking the initiative and making a list after some feedback but I don't know a single thing about mana bases. I really appreciate any help anyone can offer.
Alright, I have an idea what you are trying to achieve with knights here, so let's look at the playable creatures/spells you manage to obtain from 4x Duel Decks: Knights vs. Dragons first.
Since you are keen to work along the line of some themes, I'll try to go with the protection/indestructable route you have already identified.
As a start, it would be good to have:
4x Brave the Elements &
4x Swords to Plowshares &
2-3 Sejiri Steppe (it can enter the battlefield via Knight of the Reliquary ability thus granting protection). 4 Brave the Elements will more than suffice, so you can put the likes of Harm's Way & Test of Faith etc aside.
If you insist on playing 0 targetted removals, I would suggest Knight flyers in Knight of Cliffhaven & Leonin Skyhunter. I will also only use Spidersilk Armor if I have no removals because I do not want to lose to a 2/2 flyer over 10 beatings? Just playing the standard playset of Swords to Plowshares would be good enough for you to avoid playing underwhelming cards/creatures like those mentioned above.
Since Knights curve out at 3, there is not much need for Steward of Valeron mana producing ability especially since there is a low probability of missing the 3rd land drop.
I don't really know what are the other cards you have at the moment, but other than Oblivion Ring, none of the spells in the Duel Deck are good enough to see play at all.
Whether Wrath effects are worth playing or not also depends on your meta. If everyone is playing creatures you can adopt a conservative game plan and drop wrath (with or without Exemplar) - it always work for me (especially when I was playing Knights in Standard during the earlier part of the year).
On the mana base, we need to see the spells/creatures list first before we can start deciding the number/type of lands we are running. Perhaps you can start with the knights you want to play first.
You should also consider Savannah or Temple Garden (you don't need to run 4 copies, one is good enough as a tutorable target) if you are going to purchase Marsh Flats. Otherwise it is a waste of Marsh Flats tutoring ability if it can only fetch plains. So far I see the only reason you could be running G is purely for Knight of the Reliquary.
I wouldn't use Loxodon Warhammer, because normaly they aren't worth the mana. I tried Wrath of God, but I wasn't realy impressed. This said, when you build a deck around this combo, it could be pretty neat, especially with Knight of the Holy Nimbus. Sejiri Steppe is used once in the GW version, because it can be searched by Knight of the Reliquary. Harm's Way is a good card, but I didn't put it in my deck, because the slot was filled with 4 Swords to Plowshares. Same goes for Brave the Elements.
Well, Loxodon Warhammer is not the best equipment around, but it is still playable. It happens to come with his Duel Deck and it's decent enough to use as a filler before any changes might come in later on.
I have a soft touch for Knight of the Holy Nimbus, but I'm still unable to use him at the moment. Still worth a mention though.
I wouldn't use Loxodon Warhammer, because normaly they aren't worth the mana. I tried Wrath of God, but I wasn't realy impressed. This said, when you build a deck around this combo, it could be pretty neat, especially with Knight of the Holy Nimbus. Sejiri Steppe is used once in the GW version, because it can be searched by Knight of the Reliquary. Harm's Way is a good card, but I didn't put it in my deck, because the slot was filled with 4 Swords to Plowshares. Same goes for Brave the Elements.
Worth pointing out that Knight of the Holy Nimbus doesn't really go well with Wrath of God...you could try Day of Judgment instead if you want to make this work and aren't worried about other regenerators in your meta.
I threw together a shell out of 3 dd:kvd decks tonight (4th was not on hand) and played 5-6 games against my friend. So much fun! First time I'd ever played the tribe, or White Weenie in general. Every creature having one or more abilities makes for a blast.
Some cards I liked that surprised me (they're pretty jank for Legacy, so apologies in advance): Edge of Autumn fixed my mana or ramped up in the early/mid game, and provided card advantage with a land in the graveyard for KoR in the late game. Never really hated drawing it, but it did sit dead sometimes as I was busy casting 2cc Knights. I realize cards like this are too slow to compete, but it seemed very playable for the table. Reciprocate is inferior to Swords and Path, but I found that with so much Lifelink, I really didn't care if his dude connected once. I might just stick with it for now and save $15 on a playset of Swords since my shell outperformed my friend's decks as it was. Although not a "good" play since it 2-for-1's you, one idea I had that seemed kinda cute was to Harm's Way their creature that is in combat with one of my Knights to hopefully save him, redirect the 2 to me, and Reciprocate to exile. Loxodon Warhammer was my finisher. Trample is always relevant. Oblivion Ring needs no explanation, but really surprised me just how often this card saves your ass. Steward of Valeron was cooler than I thought. For some reason I got a kick out of swinging 2 at my opponent then tapping him with 2 Plains for a Knight of the Reliquary. He was not half bad with a Loxodon Warhammer either.
To be honest, I crushed my buddy's decks with just this shell, so I am reluctant about adding more cards. We thought his decks were a little stronger. Maybe a quality mana base and a few cards to fill in the gaps and that'll probably be it for now.
As for the Marsh Flats, I own them from a Standard deck I used to run (Vampires), so no cost there. I was thinking about putting them in and the 2 Verdant Catacombs I own as well to give KoR another boost. 1 life drop is not that big a deal at the kitchen table.
I liked most of the cards, except for a few exceptions. Grasslands, ugh. Slow fetchlands are just miserable. It does fix mana, though. Caravan Escort, this card has to go. Kabira Vindicator was average, but I was reluctant to invest mana into it at times. I can see now I used too many lands and spells; I'm used to building decks on a bigger curve. I've obviously never built a WW deck before. Nabby, you mentioned me listing the creatures and spells I liked to in order to come up with an example list. I liked everything in that shell I played with the exception of the cards listed above. But I know some of those cards I liked are probably pretty bad, so I am open to suggestions.
As far as ideas I had of my own, Mother of Runes, Student of Warfare, Sejiri Steppe and Sunpetal Grove seem great. Obviously I have the Steppes. I would have put it in before but honestly I didn't put the combat trick between it and KoR together. I'm really not going to spend much on the deck to be honest, it's just a fun deck to throw in and have some fun with from time to time. What do you guys think about some 1-2 off lands KoR could tutor for as combat tricks similar to Sejiri Steppe? Mystifying Maze comes to mind, but that might be a bad card in practice. It seems like it would protect me or a blocker of mine in the late game after I've emptied my hand, acting as fake removal if I do not draw my own removal. Shield of the Oversoul was another thought. This seems just silly on KoR or Steward if I keep him. Day of Judgment has good synergy with Knight Exemplar, and possibly Shield if stuck on Steward/Kor. These are just some thoughts, I'm not a good player or deckbuilder, and am just learning.
Thanks everyone for all the help thus far. This tribe seems to have a lot more tricks and neat interactions than I expected an aggro deck to have. I guess that's why it is Legacy powerful. I can already tell KoR's tutoring is going to provide for a lot of fun moments.
Tangent: Does the deck possess major weaknesses besides creatures with evasion (i.e. flying), and sweepers? Targeted removal is always inconvenient, but seems to be less so with a WW deck. I can already see card advantage is one weakness. I could see the deck potentially running out of gas.
It's all pretty self explanatory. Not sure if Aether Vial or Umezawa's Jitte would be better though. I'm not too familiar with the various utility lands in the game. Are there any of those that I missed? Any and all advice is welcomed! Thanks.
It's a pleasure to read, that you like the knight deck.
Now my suggestions: In casual, Harm's Way and Reciporate are good cards. When you want to spend money, you can swap them to Swords to Plowshares.
I tried Edge of Autumn, but it always disapointed me, so I wouldn't recomend it. Loxodon Warhammer could be replaced by 1 or 2 Umezawa's Jitte. But they are a little bit expensive, so you can leave them in the deck.
When you don't play the Stoneforge Package, I would play Honor of the Pure to buff your creatures. The cards that seem strong to you, are indeed strong. But I wouldn't play Sejiri Steppe more than twice. When you want to see good Lands for KotR, I would look in the Maverick-Thread, but they are realy expensive http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=327502
I wouldn't recomend Mystifying Maze and Shield of the Oversoul.
The major weakness is combo, because we don't play U or B. Creatures with evasion isn't realy our weakness because they rarely see play in Legacy and we normaly get evasion through our Swords. For a aggro deck, we have a pretty good matchup against sweeper, because of equipment and Knight Exemplar (but it hurts nevertheless). Things we also have problems:
-Enchantment/Land-Control: Enchantress, Lands etc.
-Extremly quick aggro decks: Elves, Zoo, Affinity
Strong MU's
-Blue/Black Control
-Burn
-Goblins
-Merfolk
-DnT
-Wizards
Thanks for the advice. What amount of lands does this deck usually pack when vial is not being used? Guessing 22? Kinsbaile does require 4, so I was pondering whether or not it needed more. I looked on the first page but the lists vary.
What creature to spell ratio do you guys usually run? I know typically Knights decks are lighter on the spell side and heavier on the creature side for obvious reasons. I looked at the original posts but they vary a lot in that regard as well.
Worth pointing out that Knight of the Holy Nimbus doesn't really go well with Wrath of God...you could try Day of Judgment instead if you want to make this work and aren't worried about other regenerators in your meta.
Yup, thanks for pointing that out. There are times where we forget about finer details such as this which will ineventually messed up our own strategies!
Day of Judgment is usally good enough, seeing there is usually a lack of good regenerators creatures in Legacy worth playing save for the odd Thrun here and there.
I'm always on the lookout for other Knight strategies & I'm just waiting for more support cards to arrive before I attempt a tempo knights deck with Knight of the Holy Nimbus at the forefront. I like the art and the name of the card so very much.
I threw together a shell out of 3 dd:kvd decks tonight (4th was not on hand) and played 5-6 games against my friend. So much fun! First time I'd ever played the tribe, or White Weenie in general. Every creature having one or more abilities makes for a blast.
Knights are generally low casting cost & efficient creatures with some useful ability, the downside being they are generally 'weenies' and not some big overpowered dude. I don't know what your friend is playing, but in tribe Vs tribe, knights are very strong in this aspect, especially so if the colour protection is relevant. I have managed to pwned the likes of Goblins, Merfolks & Elves which are strong popular tribes as well.
I also play many other tribes and Knights is always the most enjoyable to play with. Knights creature type as individuals are usually superior compared to other tribe thus giving me an aura of indestructability and invincibiltuy when I pilot the tribe :embarrass:. Moreover the name and art of knight cards usually thump the other tribes.
Some cards I liked that surprised me (they're pretty jank for Legacy, so apologies in advance): Edge of Autumn fixed my mana or ramped up in the early/mid game, and provided card advantage with a land in the graveyard for KoR in the late game. Never really hated drawing it, but it did sit dead sometimes as I was busy casting 2cc Knights. I realize cards like this are too slow to compete, but it seemed very playable for the table. Reciprocate is inferior to Swords and Path, but I found that with so much Lifelink, I really didn't care if his dude connected once. I might just stick with it for now and save $15 on a playset of Swords since my shell outperformed my friend's decks as it was. Although not a "good" play since it 2-for-1's you, one idea I had that seemed kinda cute was to Harm's Way their creature that is in combat with one of my Knights to hopefully save him, redirect the 2 to me, and Reciprocate to exile. Loxodon Warhammer was my finisher. Trample is always relevant. Oblivion Ring needs no explanation, but really surprised me just how often this card saves your ass. Steward of Valeron was cooler than I thought. For some reason I got a kick out of swinging 2 at my opponent then tapping him with 2 Plains for a Knight of the Reliquary. He was not half bad with a Loxodon Warhammer either.
Well you know some of the cards are jank. Moving forward I believe they will be the first few cards to go once you decide to enhance your deck.
Like you pointed out, with so many 2 drop knights around and especially since you are playing Steward of Valeron and Knight of the White Orchid, Edge of Autumn looks like a situational mana fixer/cycling card at best. You might want to look at Horizon Canopy (which is a land), which can achieve similar things and also free up slots in your deck for better spells or more knights.
Harm's way and Reciprocate cost plenty of mana to execute/are limited and situational which you are already aware of so there's no need for me to elaborate.
Also, if you have some spare dough and would like to try some planeswalkers, playing Steward of Valeron allows you to drop Elspeth, the Knight Errant or Ajani Goldmane into play earlier on turn 3 which will tend to catch opponents unaware.
To be honest, I crushed my buddy's decks with just this shell, so I am reluctant about adding more cards. We thought his decks were a little stronger. Maybe a quality mana base and a few cards to fill in the gaps and that'll probably be it for now.
Sure, as the cliché goes "never change a winning formula" - but your buddy will probably try to devise ways to strengthen his deck so i guess you should do likewise :rolleyes:.
As for the Marsh Flats, I own them from a Standard deck I used to run (Vampires), so no cost there. I was thinking about putting them in and the 2 Verdant Catacombs I own as well to give KoR another boost. 1 life drop is not that big a deal at the kitchen table.
I liked most of the cards, except for a few exceptions. Grasslands, ugh. Slow fetchlands are just miserable. It does fix mana, though. Caravan Escort, this card has to go. Kabira Vindicator was average, but I was reluctant to invest mana into it at times. I can see now I used too many lands and spells; I'm used to building decks on a bigger curve. I've obviously never built a WW deck before. Nabby, you mentioned me listing the creatures and spells I liked to in order to come up with an example list. I liked everything in that shell I played with the exception of the cards listed above. But I know some of those cards I liked are probably pretty bad, so I am open to suggestions.
Kabira Vindicator → the 4th Exemplar and KoTR from your 4th Duel deck?
Based on your list, 22 lands should be more than enough. Fetchlands and Sunpetal Grove can take up the slots for Grasslands and Forest. Your allocation of G & W mana producing lands looks fine to me at the moment.
As far as ideas I had of my own, Mother of Runes, Student of Warfare, Sejiri Steppe and Sunpetal Grove seem great. Obviously I have the Steppes. I would have put it in before but honestly I didn't put the combat trick between it and KoR together. I'm really not going to spend much on the deck to be honest, it's just a fun deck to throw in and have some fun with from time to time. What do you guys think about some 1-2 off lands KoR could tutor for as combat tricks similar to Sejiri Steppe? Mystifying Maze comes to mind, but that might be a bad card in practice. It seems like it would protect me or a blocker of mine in the late game after I've emptied my hand, acting as fake removal if I do not draw my own removal. Shield of the Oversoul was another thought. This seems just silly on KoR or Steward if I keep him. Day of Judgment has good synergy with Knight Exemplar, and possibly Shield if stuck on Steward/Kor. These are just some thoughts, I'm not a good player or deckbuilder, and am just learning.
Good choice, Mother of Runes is possibly the most irritating creature ever, Mom makes your creature almost immune to targeted removal. I even use her in my tournament Knights deck to great success.
Not more than 2 Sejiri Steppe in my opinion, sometimes I don't even feel like playing one - drawing them early messes with our tempo badly. However it does has it's merit, either allowing a knight to beat through unblocked for the win or protect the knight from a removal spell etc.
You have suggested some useful cards which you can use with, however personally I'm not a fan of enchantment Aura (they don't belong to competitive decks, period) since they are 2-for-1's so i'll never play shield of the oversoul although it can be busted with Steward or KoTR.
Just take note that when adding utility lands for KotR ability, first and foremost it should not compromise with the reliability of your mana base. One example is adding too many non-forest/plains will affect Sunpetal Grove's CITP (Comes into play tapped), or playing colorless mana land will affect your consistency in casting WW knights or leveling Student of Warfare quickly enough.
Thanks everyone for all the help thus far. This tribe seems to have a lot more tricks and neat interactions than I expected an aggro deck to have. I guess that's why it is Legacy powerful. I can already tell KoR's tutoring is going to provide for a lot of fun moments.
Tangent: Does the deck possess major weaknesses besides creatures with evasion (i.e. flying), and sweepers? Targeted removal is always inconvenient, but seems to be less so with a WW deck. I can already see card advantage is one weakness. I could see the deck potentially running out of gas.
Ignithas below has elaborated on some of the matchups. And yes, not playing B(no discards) & U (no counters) means the deck has a miserable matchup against Combo decks. That is applicable to all other aggro decks without disruption as well ((not only knights).
It's a pleasure to read, that you like the knight deck.
Now my suggestions: In casual, Harm's Way and Reciporate are good cards. When you want to spend money, you can swap them to Swords to Plowshares.
I tried Edge of Autumn, but it always disapointed me, so I wouldn't recomend it. Loxodon Warhammer could be replaced by 1 or 2 Umezawa's Jitte. But they are a little bit expensive, so you can leave them in the deck.
When you don't play the Stoneforge Package, I would play Honor of the Pure to buff your creatures. The cards that seem strong to you, are indeed strong. But I wouldn't play Sejiri Steppe more than twice. When you want to see good Lands for KotR, I would look in the Maverick-Thread, but they are realy expensive http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=327502
I wouldn't recomend Mystifying Maze and Shield of the Oversoul.
The major weakness is combo, because we don't play U or B. Creatures with evasion isn't realy our weakness because they rarely see play in Legacy and we normaly get evasion through our Swords. For a aggro deck, we have a pretty good matchup against sweeper, because of equipment and Knight Exemplar (but it hurts nevertheless). Things we also have problems:
-Enchantment/Land-Control: Enchantress, Lands etc.
-Extremly quick aggro decks: Elves, Zoo, Affinity
Strong MU's
-Blue/Black Control
-Burn
-Goblins
-Merfolk
-DnT
-Wizards
Ignithas would have given some solid advice to you considering you guys came from a similar background, he also formed his knights deck out of a few Knights Vs Dragon Duel decks?
It's all pretty self explanatory. Not sure if Aether Vial or Umezawa's Jitte would be better though. I'm not too familiar with the various utility lands in the game. Are there any of those that I missed? Any and all advice is welcomed! Thanks.
Great to have another Knights lover. I played a mono-black knights built recently, I'll come back later with some of my ideas/concepts on Mono-Black Knights!
It's all pretty self explanatory. Not sure if Aether Vial or Umezawa's Jitte would be better though. I'm not too familiar with the various utility lands in the game. Are there any of those that I missed? Any and all advice is welcomed! Thanks.
I found an earlier post in this thread which I made on Mono-black Knights, perhaps you may use as a reference:
I had playtested this decklist extensively(over 2-3 mths regular play) against a good number of different Legacy Tier one decks, and it actually puts in decent results considering it is a rogue list.
Personally i felt the results I garnered from the deck might warrant adding the decklist into the primer.
With regards to your decklist, Ignithas has pointed out Entomb should be played, but since you already have 3x Buried Alive it's decent card advantage although slower.
You can consider Phyrexian Crusader as well, the protection from red could be relevant in some matchups - for me, Crusader is absolutely massive against Zoo.
You should cut out most if not all the fetches, there is no need to run fetchlands as the life loss might be critical compared to to insignificant deck thinning. Also the life loss from Haakon might also hit you towards the later game.
Black Knight will be more suitable as the deck usually requires us to keep using the mana for some spells or ability. I think you are referring to Nameless Inversion as a repeatable spell rather than Cabal Therapy?
You could also use Thoughtsize to get a better combo setup and you could consider Entomb (I know that they are very expensive, so a Duress could make the job of Entomb).
Thoughtseize is the best discard spell in the game, however depending on the meta, usually Inquisition of Kozilek is able to fulfill the task. I usually go for a mix of Inquistion and Therapy. If you can afford Thoughtseize, it should be fine to play a few of them with Inquisition. Just take note of the self-inflicted life loss from it.
Aether Vial is better in this deck, because you can cheat Haakon into play.
And that's correct, Aether Vial is another useful way to get around Haakon unique casting restriction. Seeing that the deck is running a combination of hand disruption and creature aggro + Liliana of the Veil, there isn't really any space leftover for equipments in my opinion.
I just wanted to post up and thank everyone for the advice. This thread is so much more helpful than the Dragons primer that I'm trying to get some help in.
Yeah, I've got some low powered cards, but they were cute and fun. They made the match competitive and a little closer than if I had just blown him out with a sword or 2. He doesn't have the money to make his primary deck really any faster right now, so I will probably hang the deck around similar to where it is now. Lots of my other card thoughts were sort of based around the same principle. I know auras (in general) are bad cards because you can get 2-for-1'd easily.
Emerge Unscathed is right up my alley, I may take a look at that card. Also, I did not realize Ajani 1.0 was down to $3.50. His -1 loyalty looks fun and flavorful, especially for a beefy KotR.
Thanks again you guys, it's a great feeling to see some people actually take a few minutes and give thoughtful feedback about all facets of the tribe. I dig each angle of these guys from the art, to the "defensive" aspects, to the flavor, mechanics and so on. I will post back I make some more adjustments.
By the way, if anyone wants a bit of a deck designing challenge, here is the primary deck my friend is piloting that I am attempting to just make better for him:
I just wanted to post up and thank everyone for the advice. This thread is so much more helpful than the Dragons primer that I'm trying to get some help in.
Yeah, I've got some low powered cards, but they were cute and fun. They made the match competitive and a little closer than if I had just blown him out with a sword or 2. He doesn't have the money to make his primary deck really any faster right now, so I will probably hang the deck around similar to where it is now. Lots of my other card thoughts were sort of based around the same principle. I know auras (in general) are bad cards because you can get 2-for-1'd easily.
Emerge Unscathed is right up my alley, I may take a look at that card. Also, I did not realize Ajani 1.0 was down to $3.50. His -1 loyalty looks fun and flavorful, especially for a beefy KotR.
Thanks again you guys, it's a great feeling to see some people actually take a few minutes and give thoughtful feedback about all facets of the tribe. I dig each angle of these guys from the art, to the "defensive" aspects, to the flavor, mechanics and so on. I will post back I make some more adjustments.
By the way, if anyone wants a bit of a deck designing challenge, here is the primary deck my friend is piloting that I am attempting to just make better for him:
Thanks for this post! And thank you for these kind words. It's always nice to know people appreciate when you offer help. I also wish to say it is really polite of you to do so.
Ajani Goldmane is good value for it's price at the moment, and looks like a mainstay for creatures heavy deck(albeit mostly casual) and as you know our first choice is still Elspeth, Knight-Errant but at that price it's definitely worth it's slot in the deck.
Guess we have some similarities here, I have always been fascinated with the various aspects and characteristics of tribes, and identified early on my love for knights. Anyway hope to see your adjusted list soon.
It has been fun and fulfilling helping you to build a knight deck from scratch(not exactly since you had the Duel Deck Shell but whatever). You have been receptive and affable during the discussion in this thread, which I could only wish all the other posters were, by the way this post you made is the icing on the cake!
There are limited slots for 3 drops knights and even with it's interaction with Knight Exemplar, I still find it too unreliable to pull off. Crusader and Cavalier's protection/flying abilities are far more consistant and relevant thus they are my pick.
I have been building White Green Chrome Mox Knights for the last few weeks. So far the deck preforms very well but some of the cards could use some tweaking.
I have been building White Green Chrome Mox Knights for the last few weeks. So far the deck preforms very well but some of the cards could use some tweaking.
I felt you shouldnt leave Knight of the White Orchid out if you are playing Chrome Mox. KotWO together with Chrome Mox and a W mana producing land automatically gives you the assurance(if uncountered) of another Plains.
Since we don't have any creatures/knights tutor(no need to have creatures variety since it's too random) I felt you could:
- 1x Knight of the Meadowgrain
- 1x Mirran Crusader
- 1x White Knight
- 1x Qasali Pridemage
+ 4x Knight of the White Orchid
I believe this would make the deck more consistent, with a likelihood you could equip with one of the equipment Swords faster and earlier.
Do you need to Path to Exile your own creatures for the additional plains? Otherwise Swords to Plowshares is better. I playtested both extensively and even with PtE interaction with KotWO I felt StP is the choice removal here. I felt the land ramp for my opponent tends to hurt more for me than the life gain they potentially receive.
4x Windswept Heath should be played in place of the Zendikar fetches unless it's budget issues or you are afraid of pitching needles or Surgical Extraction.
this is not typical Knight deck, it is relying on 3 different strategies:
- in early game, I'm mostly waiting for good 3 drops like Exemplars and Mirrans, then at 4 lands I could easily wipe out all opponent table just by casting Day of Judgment (or Divine Reckoning, with is of course selective version od DoJ, it grants me ability to save valuable stuff like Sun Titan, Mentor of the Meek or Pristine Angel)
- in mid game, I'm using Concerted Effort; that's, in fact, the reason why I have so many type's of knights in play (especially that's why I'm using Skyhunters so badly); in most of mid games I'm reciving full power by sharing at least DS, flying and vigilance, and having exemplar on the BF (additional +1/+1 and indestructibility); unless my opponent is able to exile everything on the table, I'm pretty safe.
- in late game, if both previuos will fail to do the trick, I'm useing Emeria Sky Ruins to easily revive creatures from graveyard. It works even more quickly if I have my Sun Titan already there.
Of course, non of mentioned above is perfect. In early phase of game there is a lot of instants that could target me or counter my spells. In fact, in mono W deck like this it is impossible to avoid it, and, still, not sacrifice any valuable card from the list.
Some notable cards and reason thy to use them:
- Mirror Entity - it is still a Knight in fact, and its ability to increase power/toughness can easily end game (especially if there is multiple instances od DS creatures on BF)
- Pentarch Paladin - a knight, that is able to hunt down a planeswalker; limited to color, which is sad, but still quite good to have it;
- Pristine Angel - grants protection from, literally, everything on the BF. + Concerted Effort, and we have unblockable army. + Divine Reckoning, and we can wipe out enemy without losing our protections
- Hero of Bladehold - I do not agree personally with the 1 post, where this card is rated quite low. In fact, it is 4 drop knight with a fair 3/4 and battle cry, plus, it grants us additional tokens (soldiers, shame, but still our soldiers); giving this a indestructibility makes it a real threat;
- Adaptive Automaton - additional +1/+1 boost, and still a knight
- Door of Destinies - I put it experimentally, not seen if works efficiently (quite expensive but imo better than Coat of Arms, becasue works only for us
- Darksteel Plate - protects Exemplars if one on the battlefield, of Meek, of Titan (3 drop in case od Sun Titan)
- Norn's Annex - block's the game, and can be copied by metamorph
- Mask of Avacyn - hexproof, mostly for Exemplars and Titan; or it can be placed on Mirran and grants additional firepower; may be replaced with Whispersilk Cloak, but I assume that strong need of reciving additional unblockable is not an issue here
- Trepanation Blade - funny to play equipment, might suprise
- Day of Judgment - no comment I think
- Planar Cleansing - big brother of DoJ, it is included in the deck because of nasty artifacts (deck doesn't grants a good solution for this issue unfortunatelly); Elspeth 3rd ability could do even better of course if she will survive long enough
- Divine Reckoning - as mentioned, selective version od DoJ (is replaced with DoJ if not needed, or an opponent has some tanks in his/her deck)
- Paraselene - the only "cannon" against enchantments, which are also a real threat (specially things like Call to the Grave), bad thing is that will wipe out our Concered Effort and Leyline of Sanctity (both cannot be revived in late game unfortunatelly), but on the other hand, it grants us a little healing kick
- Leyline of Sanctity - hexproof for the owner of the card is always nice, especialy when playing against black, red or black (or red) splashed decks with things like diabolic edicts (of course, must be in opening hand then).
- Ajani Goldmane - for vigilance and +1/+1 ability, not concentrating on its 3rd ability - should be replaced with another Elspeth, but I'm short-budget right now
- Elspeth Tirel - in the case of this deck imo better than Knight-Errant because it slows game a lot. And in this case, time is on our side (if there is no progenitus-type things, while we are left of metamorphs).
Of course, I was thinking about Students of Warfare, which are perfect 1 drop, but when aiming in 2headed giant and relying on 3 drops creatures (both because of Emeria Sky Ruins and Sun Titan), resigning from 1 drop is not so harmfull.
And this is it, works well as I observed.
I know you mentioned it is for casual two-headed giant matches and is not a typical Knights deck, unfortunately I also wish to add this is not a typical competitive legacy deck. I counted 44 cards and 23 lands in your decklist which is a total of 67 cards. However from what I see in the deck list it really looks like you are a big Knight fan?;)
I have no experiences in two-headed giant so I also don't know what to make of your decklist or card choices. (for example Hero of Bladehold is usually going to be better in two-headed giant games compared to 1v1 legacy game since you have more time to drop bigger creatures in.)
But nonetheless, thanks for sharing with us your 2 headed Giant knights list and how the cards work in this format. By the way I hope my primer has been of good use to you.:)
I think Vial Knights will perform above average in your meta. There is not much of a difference between GW and W Vial Knights other than GW giving the deck better answers to artifact/enchantment and more options in sideboarding. I'll just state some of the matchups against the decks in your meta below:
Against Blue
Against blue (I assume mono-blue or blue with a small black/white splash), Aether Vial always give them a massive problem, the first turn Vial and early stoneforge mystic always give them a big headache. When resolved, it's usually a stroll to victory. If I'm on the draw, I'll usually cast a Student of Warfare to lure their Daze or counters before dropping Vial next turn. Sword of Fire and Ice is great asset against their JTMS, bounce effects etc.
For decks splashing minor black/white, first turn Mother of Runes or end turn Vial into Mother is the key to overcoming their removals. Vialing in a Knight Exemplar is also a good trick to save our knights against black removals such as Smother, Go for the throat, Doomed blade, Ghastly Demise etc. Sword of Light and Shadow is key in rendering their removals useless.
Against Counterbalance decks you can also Vial in Leonin Relic-Warder in Mono-White or Qasali Pridemage for Green/White Knights to mess them up.
Granted many of my examples are with Aether Vial but I'm just trying to protray how easy it is when we have an active vial. Otherwise even without the Vial we are able to come up with answers against different types of blue decks as depicted above (but open to being countered). With opening hand Vial, our chances of winning can be as high as 70%, without them, we probably still have around 40% winning chance.
Against Ressurection
Are you referring to Reanimator? Against combo deck like this we need to sideboard in graveyard hate. We are never going to stand much of a chance if they reanimate the likes of Jin-Gitaxias or Ionas on the second turn...
One thing bad for knights is it's weakness against combo but that said, any deck without blue is bad against combo and that includes even Zoo & Maverick decks.
Against Zoo
See who can out-aggro who first, Zoo is definitely better. They are not Tier one for nothing.
Against other tribes
Against Birds, try to get equipments early and StP their creatures early so we'll have sufficient life to utilise the swords when they come online. Goblins is a easy matchup unless they get a god hand. Our first strike knights usually hold them back from attacking, and dropping a SoFI end games quickly. There are a few variants of Elves (Combo,Aggro,NO) around and I have not seen them for the longest time.
Knights are superior to soldiers no questions asked.
Knights generally has a favorable matchup against other tribes, I usually like to have games against them. I played in a few competitive Legacy tournaments in my LGS before and I always do well against other Tribal decks. Merfolk and Goblin are in fact one of my favorite matchup but unfortunately we don't see much of them anymore.
I hope the above is useful for you. Actually I think we share the same sentiments towards returning to magic. I came back after 12 years from the game and was blown off by the high prices and investment required to make a Tier 1 deck. I have always love knight creature cards, way back to the iconic Black Knight / White Knight in 1995(when i first started playing). I decided I needed something competitive even if not Top Tier and yet within reasonable investment, and so far I'm pretty happy with the results I get from Knights Tribal.
Knights FTW!!!:)
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Yeah, you would have gotten some useful singleton knights such as Silver Knight, White Knight, Kinsbaile Cavalier, Knight Exemplar, Knight of Meadowgrain, Knight of the White Orchid from there.
Since you already brought Vial, Swords and SFM, just buying 2 of the "Knights Vs Dragon" deck and it seems you only need to increase Exemplar up to 4 to get a competitive knight deck going.
How is your list so far? You might want to maindeck a few Leonin Relic-Warder for some answers against troublesome artifacts or enchantments.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Nice to see another Knight deck doing well in legacy tournaments. Also, thanks for sharing with us your tournament report and decklist.
On your decklist, I'm just a little curious about the 2x Orim's Chant. It looks a little random here.;) Any particular reasons for running it?
I'm not really in favor of Kinsbaile Cavalier anymore, and would rather increase Mother of Runes to 4. A resolved Mother is akin to what Kira, Great Glass-Spinner does for Merfolk and she plays a very big role here to protect our creatures from removals especially with Snapcaster Mage flashbacking removals more often than ever.
I'll also try to find space for at least one Sword of Light and Shadow. It shut down so many removals spells it is really godly in my meta at the moment.
Did you run the Marsh Flats playset because you didn't have sufficient Windswept Heath? Windswept can tutor for the singleton forest so we won't have a easy Wasteland target for the opponent. Having a mixture of Marsh Flats and Arid Mesa can help us against the likes of Pitching Needle and Phyrexian Revolver.
Initally I was bewildered with the singleton Bayou in the maindeck, until I realised you had Perish in the sideboard. Anyway you mentioned the sideboard was hastily formed so I won't go too much into it.
Seems that you were quite unlucky in the matchup against Reanimator but well at least you had the answers in your deck. It beats playing against a deck knowing it is an auto-loss.
All in all, I'm wouldnt mind taking your decklist if I have a tournament tomorrow. Also it's good you enjoyed playing with the knight deck. IMO it is the most enjoyable tribal deck I have played so far.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I find 20 land to be too low when running out 4-drops, particularly a win-con like Elspeth. I run ~20-21 mana sources and my curve tops out at 3, with Vial doing most of the heavy lifting. Do you have an updated list so we can take a better look?
I believe you should have a few Knight of the White Orchid from the "Knights Vs Dragons" Set, are you running enough copies of him? He is really good in helping us reach our 3rd and 4th mana.
Generally I don't face the problem of being unable to cast Elspeth, Knight-Errant regularly. Is your meta too fast so much so you simply dont have the chance to slowly curve into Elspeth? I wouldnt want to cut her out because she fits well into the deck strategy and also provides an alternative win-con.
I'm quite comfortable with playing 20 lands, and with only 2 cards (Elspeth, Knight-Errant) going above 3 mana I usually have my 4th mana by the time I draw her or either then my mana curve out perfectly for me to cast Elspeth.
I realise I can actually depend on Knight of the White Orchid resolving to obtain the additional land. Otherwise an active Knight of the Reliquary can also generate 4 mana (from 3 lands in play) by tapping the soon to be sacrificed land for mana first.
Like AEIOUsometimesY said, it will be best if you can show us your updated decklist so we can look at the whole picture and identify which part is lacking.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Why Journey to Nowhere? If you're looking for more removal, I'd just run 2x Path to Exile instead...you are running Knight of the White Orchid, which can help mitigate the drawback. I think I also like Sword of Feast and Famine over Sword of Body and Mind (still gets through Goyfs and KotR), but it's probably a meta call.
Is Emrakul prevalent enough that you need to run Journey to Nowhere in the main deck? If Emrakul is the main reason, Oblivion Ring would serve the same purpose but handle other threats as well. Sure, it costs 3 instead of 2, but when you are running Journey as a 2-of, it's not like you can count on seeing it by turn 2 or 3 when you need it, anyway.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Like Ignithas pointed out, Phyrexian Metamorph can copy a very popular reanimator target in Iona, Shield of Emeria unlike the typical W removal which is totally invalidated with Iona's arrival. Likewise, it can also stop Sneak Attack/Show & Tell decks which usually drop Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into the battlefield. Also, it can copy Progenitus in those Natural Order/Elves decks etc
There are some matchups which I accepted Knights are not going to win (Show & Tell/ Reanimator), that's also partly why they are Tier One. They invalidate all aggro so any discussion on them is moot really.
That said, Metamorph gives us an out, a chance. If opponents have plenty of countermagic available there's nothing much we can do. At the very least the opponent has to ensure they have counters in order to pull it off successfully - which might give us a little time to do our things? On the other hand they might make a mistake which we can capitalise with our Metamorph. Sometimes things like this make a difference....Winston? LOL
That's right, with Iona being a very popular reanimator target, Metamorph is our only out against them. Metamorph can be hard-casted on the third turn, or vialed in on the fifth turn? If reanimator/show & tell decks are slow off the blocks, we could very well evade their countermagic by vialing in Metamorph to stop their legendary creatures.
Your creature choices looks solid. However 6 equipments seems to many and will clog up your hand unnecessary. I suggest cutting it to 4, with Stoneforge Mystic around, you could use her to tutor for relevant equipments thus there is no need to pack so many different equipments.
I also realise you do not have any solutions against artifacts/enchantments at all. Perhaps Serenity, Leonin Relic-Warder or even Disenchant might go into the sideboard somehow?
In your sideboard(which is meta dependent), I feel you should run only either Retribution of the Meek or Phyrexian Metamorph, not both. Both of them have the same target - big legendary creatures so perhaps a mixture will do be fine. Running 7 pieces is overkill IMO.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
My story is I acquired 4 Duel Decks Knights vs. Dragons for a heavy discount, and I could not pass up the deal. I'd like to take these four decks, my 4 Marsh flats, purchase some more cards such as Student of Warfare and Sunpetal Grove (just examples), and create a decent casual deck.
I'm a pretty heavy "Timmy" so I'd like to employ two flavorful themes that are fun and ensure I don't run off and overpower my casual meta; some feedback on these themes and card choices would be fantastic. I'm not enslaved to the themes, though. The first theme is the awesome variance of abilities that the Duel Deck had. Indestructible, Lifelink, Double Strike, Trample, First Strike, etc. The abilities are the only reason I want to play this tribe.
The second theme I like is the nature of cards that protect the Knights so they can do their job and use those abilities: Sejiri Steppe, Harm's Way and Brave the Elements are examples of this theme that come to mind. Would a deck with those cards or cards similar to those for the spell-base offer enough utility/support for the deck to do its job? I'd like to avoid spot removal for some variety in my decks - I have a lot of black decks that employ heavy spot removal. Wrath effects might be cool with Knight Exemplar though. I figured I'd toss in 2-3 Loxodon Warhammer as well.
I do not mind taking the initiative and making a list after some feedback but I don't know a single thing about mana bases. I really appreciate any help anyone can offer.
My bad, I see wrongly :embarrass:.
I have not played against Elves in ages. Everyone and their grandmother is playing U nowadays, previously it was Mental Mistep Mania, now its Snapcaster Mania.
My meta is also very low on artifact count at the moment, but when they land a Batterskull or Sword of Feast and Famine, I usually have either Qasali Pridemage or Leonin Relic-Warder waiting in the wings.
I probably posted my casual primer in the "wrong" forum. I should have pasted it in "Casual Magic" which is more active and has a much higher readership. The Budget forum in Legacy is pretty dead. From my observations it seems like the better players do not even go in at all and the casual players visit other sub-forums mostly. I don't know if the moderators would be willing to move that thread over to the Casual Magic forum.
Alright, I have an idea what you are trying to achieve with knights here, so let's look at the playable creatures/spells you manage to obtain from 4x Duel Decks: Knights vs. Dragons first.
2 Kinsbaile Cavalier
4 Knight of Cliffhaven
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Leonin Skyhunter
4 Silver Knight
4 White Knight
4 Spidersilk Armor
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Loxodon Warhammer
Lands
4 Sejiri Steppe
Since you are keen to work along the line of some themes, I'll try to go with the protection/indestructable route you have already identified.
As a start, it would be good to have:
4x Brave the Elements &
4x Swords to Plowshares &
2-3 Sejiri Steppe (it can enter the battlefield via Knight of the Reliquary ability thus granting protection). 4 Brave the Elements will more than suffice, so you can put the likes of Harm's Way & Test of Faith etc aside.
If you insist on playing 0 targetted removals, I would suggest Knight flyers in Knight of Cliffhaven & Leonin Skyhunter. I will also only use Spidersilk Armor if I have no removals because I do not want to lose to a 2/2 flyer over 10 beatings? Just playing the standard playset of Swords to Plowshares would be good enough for you to avoid playing underwhelming cards/creatures like those mentioned above.
Since Knights curve out at 3, there is not much need for Steward of Valeron mana producing ability especially since there is a low probability of missing the 3rd land drop.
I don't really know what are the other cards you have at the moment, but other than Oblivion Ring, none of the spells in the Duel Deck are good enough to see play at all.
Whether Wrath effects are worth playing or not also depends on your meta. If everyone is playing creatures you can adopt a conservative game plan and drop wrath (with or without Exemplar) - it always work for me (especially when I was playing Knights in Standard during the earlier part of the year).
On the mana base, we need to see the spells/creatures list first before we can start deciding the number/type of lands we are running. Perhaps you can start with the knights you want to play first.
You should also consider Savannah or Temple Garden (you don't need to run 4 copies, one is good enough as a tutorable target) if you are going to purchase Marsh Flats. Otherwise it is a waste of Marsh Flats tutoring ability if it can only fetch plains. So far I see the only reason you could be running G is purely for Knight of the Reliquary.
Well, Loxodon Warhammer is not the best equipment around, but it is still playable. It happens to come with his Duel Deck and it's decent enough to use as a filler before any changes might come in later on.
I have a soft touch for Knight of the Holy Nimbus, but I'm still unable to use him at the moment. Still worth a mention though.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Worth pointing out that Knight of the Holy Nimbus doesn't really go well with Wrath of God...you could try Day of Judgment instead if you want to make this work and aren't worried about other regenerators in your meta.
Some cards I liked that surprised me (they're pretty jank for Legacy, so apologies in advance): Edge of Autumn fixed my mana or ramped up in the early/mid game, and provided card advantage with a land in the graveyard for KoR in the late game. Never really hated drawing it, but it did sit dead sometimes as I was busy casting 2cc Knights. I realize cards like this are too slow to compete, but it seemed very playable for the table. Reciprocate is inferior to Swords and Path, but I found that with so much Lifelink, I really didn't care if his dude connected once. I might just stick with it for now and save $15 on a playset of Swords since my shell outperformed my friend's decks as it was. Although not a "good" play since it 2-for-1's you, one idea I had that seemed kinda cute was to Harm's Way their creature that is in combat with one of my Knights to hopefully save him, redirect the 2 to me, and Reciprocate to exile. Loxodon Warhammer was my finisher. Trample is always relevant. Oblivion Ring needs no explanation, but really surprised me just how often this card saves your ass. Steward of Valeron was cooler than I thought. For some reason I got a kick out of swinging 2 at my opponent then tapping him with 2 Plains for a Knight of the Reliquary. He was not half bad with a Loxodon Warhammer either.
To be honest, I crushed my buddy's decks with just this shell, so I am reluctant about adding more cards. We thought his decks were a little stronger. Maybe a quality mana base and a few cards to fill in the gaps and that'll probably be it for now.
As for the Marsh Flats, I own them from a Standard deck I used to run (Vampires), so no cost there. I was thinking about putting them in and the 2 Verdant Catacombs I own as well to give KoR another boost. 1 life drop is not that big a deal at the kitchen table.
The shell I played:
2 Kinsbaile Cavalier
4 Steward of Valeron
3 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Caravan Escort
2 Kabira Vindicator
3 Knight Exemplar
3 Reciprocate
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Harm's Way
3 Edge of Autumn
2 Loxodon Warhammer
7 Forest
13 Plains
4 Grasslands
I liked most of the cards, except for a few exceptions. Grasslands, ugh. Slow fetchlands are just miserable. It does fix mana, though. Caravan Escort, this card has to go. Kabira Vindicator was average, but I was reluctant to invest mana into it at times. I can see now I used too many lands and spells; I'm used to building decks on a bigger curve. I've obviously never built a WW deck before. Nabby, you mentioned me listing the creatures and spells I liked to in order to come up with an example list. I liked everything in that shell I played with the exception of the cards listed above. But I know some of those cards I liked are probably pretty bad, so I am open to suggestions.
As far as ideas I had of my own, Mother of Runes, Student of Warfare, Sejiri Steppe and Sunpetal Grove seem great. Obviously I have the Steppes. I would have put it in before but honestly I didn't put the combat trick between it and KoR together. I'm really not going to spend much on the deck to be honest, it's just a fun deck to throw in and have some fun with from time to time. What do you guys think about some 1-2 off lands KoR could tutor for as combat tricks similar to Sejiri Steppe? Mystifying Maze comes to mind, but that might be a bad card in practice. It seems like it would protect me or a blocker of mine in the late game after I've emptied my hand, acting as fake removal if I do not draw my own removal. Shield of the Oversoul was another thought. This seems just silly on KoR or Steward if I keep him. Day of Judgment has good synergy with Knight Exemplar, and possibly Shield if stuck on Steward/Kor. These are just some thoughts, I'm not a good player or deckbuilder, and am just learning.
Thanks everyone for all the help thus far. This tribe seems to have a lot more tricks and neat interactions than I expected an aggro deck to have. I guess that's why it is Legacy powerful. I can already tell KoR's tutoring is going to provide for a lot of fun moments.
Tangent: Does the deck possess major weaknesses besides creatures with evasion (i.e. flying), and sweepers? Targeted removal is always inconvenient, but seems to be less so with a WW deck. I can already see card advantage is one weakness. I could see the deck potentially running out of gas.
It's all pretty self explanatory. Not sure if Aether Vial or Umezawa's Jitte would be better though. I'm not too familiar with the various utility lands in the game. Are there any of those that I missed? Any and all advice is welcomed! Thanks.
Thanks for the advice. What amount of lands does this deck usually pack when vial is not being used? Guessing 22? Kinsbaile does require 4, so I was pondering whether or not it needed more. I looked on the first page but the lists vary.
What creature to spell ratio do you guys usually run? I know typically Knights decks are lighter on the spell side and heavier on the creature side for obvious reasons. I looked at the original posts but they vary a lot in that regard as well.
Yup, thanks for pointing that out. There are times where we forget about finer details such as this which will ineventually messed up our own strategies!
Day of Judgment is usally good enough, seeing there is usually a lack of good regenerators creatures in Legacy worth playing save for the odd Thrun here and there.
I'm always on the lookout for other Knight strategies & I'm just waiting for more support cards to arrive before I attempt a tempo knights deck with Knight of the Holy Nimbus at the forefront. I like the art and the name of the card so very much.
Knights are generally low casting cost & efficient creatures with some useful ability, the downside being they are generally 'weenies' and not some big overpowered dude. I don't know what your friend is playing, but in tribe Vs tribe, knights are very strong in this aspect, especially so if the colour protection is relevant. I have managed to pwned the likes of Goblins, Merfolks & Elves which are strong popular tribes as well.
I also play many other tribes and Knights is always the most enjoyable to play with. Knights creature type as individuals are usually superior compared to other tribe thus giving me an aura of indestructability and invincibiltuy when I pilot the tribe :embarrass:. Moreover the name and art of knight cards usually thump the other tribes.
Well you know some of the cards are jank. Moving forward I believe they will be the first few cards to go once you decide to enhance your deck.
Like you pointed out, with so many 2 drop knights around and especially since you are playing Steward of Valeron and Knight of the White Orchid, Edge of Autumn looks like a situational mana fixer/cycling card at best. You might want to look at Horizon Canopy (which is a land), which can achieve similar things and also free up slots in your deck for better spells or more knights.
Harm's way and Reciprocate cost plenty of mana to execute/are limited and situational which you are already aware of so there's no need for me to elaborate.
You might want to look at replacing Harm's way with Brave the Elements or Emerge Unscathed at some stage.
Also, if you have some spare dough and would like to try some planeswalkers, playing Steward of Valeron allows you to drop Elspeth, the Knight Errant or Ajani Goldmane into play earlier on turn 3 which will tend to catch opponents unaware.
Sure, as the cliché goes "never change a winning formula" - but your buddy will probably try to devise ways to strengthen his deck so i guess you should do likewise :rolleyes:.
Based on your list, 22 lands should be more than enough. Fetchlands and Sunpetal Grove can take up the slots for Grasslands and Forest. Your allocation of G & W mana producing lands looks fine to me at the moment.
Some obvious choices such as Reciprocate, Harm's Way & Edge of Autumn could be replaced with better alternatives eventually.
Good choice, Mother of Runes is possibly the most irritating creature ever, Mom makes your creature almost immune to targeted removal. I even use her in my tournament Knights deck to great success.
Not more than 2 Sejiri Steppe in my opinion, sometimes I don't even feel like playing one - drawing them early messes with our tempo badly. However it does has it's merit, either allowing a knight to beat through unblocked for the win or protect the knight from a removal spell etc.
You have suggested some useful cards which you can use with, however personally I'm not a fan of enchantment Aura (they don't belong to competitive decks, period) since they are 2-for-1's so i'll never play shield of the oversoul although it can be busted with Steward or KoTR.
Just take note that when adding utility lands for KotR ability, first and foremost it should not compromise with the reliability of your mana base. One example is adding too many non-forest/plains will affect Sunpetal Grove's CITP (Comes into play tapped), or playing colorless mana land will affect your consistency in casting WW knights or leveling Student of Warfare quickly enough.
Ignithas below has elaborated on some of the matchups. And yes, not playing B(no discards) & U (no counters) means the deck has a miserable matchup against Combo decks. That is applicable to all other aggro decks without disruption as well ((not only knights).
Ignithas would have given some solid advice to you considering you guys came from a similar background, he also formed his knights deck out of a few Knights Vs Dragon Duel decks?
Great to have another Knights lover. I played a mono-black knights built recently, I'll come back later with some of my ideas/concepts on Mono-Black Knights!
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I found an earlier post in this thread which I made on Mono-black Knights, perhaps you may use as a reference:
Mono Black Legacy Knights:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7397191&postcount=112
I had playtested this decklist extensively(over 2-3 mths regular play) against a good number of different Legacy Tier one decks, and it actually puts in decent results considering it is a rogue list.
Below is the final list I came out with:
Liliana and Haakon's Darth Knights - 4th Edition:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7619342&postcount=25
Personally i felt the results I garnered from the deck might warrant adding the decklist into the primer.
With regards to your decklist, Ignithas has pointed out Entomb should be played, but since you already have 3x Buried Alive it's decent card advantage although slower.
You can consider Phyrexian Crusader as well, the protection from red could be relevant in some matchups - for me, Crusader is absolutely massive against Zoo.
You should cut out most if not all the fetches, there is no need to run fetchlands as the life loss might be critical compared to to insignificant deck thinning. Also the life loss from Haakon might also hit you towards the later game.
Black Knight will be more suitable as the deck usually requires us to keep using the mana for some spells or ability. I think you are referring to Nameless Inversion as a repeatable spell rather than Cabal Therapy?
Thoughtseize is the best discard spell in the game, however depending on the meta, usually Inquisition of Kozilek is able to fulfill the task. I usually go for a mix of Inquistion and Therapy. If you can afford Thoughtseize, it should be fine to play a few of them with Inquisition. Just take note of the self-inflicted life loss from it.
And that's correct, Aether Vial is another useful way to get around Haakon unique casting restriction. Seeing that the deck is running a combination of hand disruption and creature aggro + Liliana of the Veil, there isn't really any space leftover for equipments in my opinion.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Yeah, I've got some low powered cards, but they were cute and fun. They made the match competitive and a little closer than if I had just blown him out with a sword or 2. He doesn't have the money to make his primary deck really any faster right now, so I will probably hang the deck around similar to where it is now. Lots of my other card thoughts were sort of based around the same principle. I know auras (in general) are bad cards because you can get 2-for-1'd easily.
Emerge Unscathed is right up my alley, I may take a look at that card. Also, I did not realize Ajani 1.0 was down to $3.50. His -1 loyalty looks fun and flavorful, especially for a beefy KotR.
Thanks again you guys, it's a great feeling to see some people actually take a few minutes and give thoughtful feedback about all facets of the tribe. I dig each angle of these guys from the art, to the "defensive" aspects, to the flavor, mechanics and so on. I will post back I make some more adjustments.
By the way, if anyone wants a bit of a deck designing challenge, here is the primary deck my friend is piloting that I am attempting to just make better for him:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=377097
Hope everyone has a good weekend.
Thanks for this post! And thank you for these kind words. It's always nice to know people appreciate when you offer help. I also wish to say it is really polite of you to do so.
Ajani Goldmane is good value for it's price at the moment, and looks like a mainstay for creatures heavy deck(albeit mostly casual) and as you know our first choice is still Elspeth, Knight-Errant but at that price it's definitely worth it's slot in the deck.
Guess we have some similarities here, I have always been fascinated with the various aspects and characteristics of tribes, and identified early on my love for knights. Anyway hope to see your adjusted list soon.
It has been fun and fulfilling helping you to build a knight deck from scratch(not exactly since you had the Duel Deck Shell but whatever). You have been receptive and affable during the discussion in this thread, which I could only wish all the other posters were, by the way this post you made is the icing on the cake!
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Arrogant Bloodlord is a beefy knight with an interesting drawback. Unfortunately at 3 casting cost, it is competing with the likes of Phyrexian Crusader and Stillmoon Cavalier. Also we are already playing 3cc knight staples such as Haakon, Stromgald Scourge & Knight Exemplar.
There are limited slots for 3 drops knights and even with it's interaction with Knight Exemplar, I still find it too unreliable to pull off. Crusader and Cavalier's protection/flying abilities are far more consistant and relevant thus they are my pick.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
4 Path to Exile
I have updated the list after playtesting it some amount.
EDH:
"">Jenara, Asura of War GWU
I felt you shouldnt leave Knight of the White Orchid out if you are playing Chrome Mox. KotWO together with Chrome Mox and a W mana producing land automatically gives you the assurance(if uncountered) of another Plains.
Since we don't have any creatures/knights tutor(no need to have creatures variety since it's too random) I felt you could:
- 1x Knight of the Meadowgrain
- 1x Mirran Crusader
- 1x White Knight
- 1x Qasali Pridemage
+ 4x Knight of the White Orchid
I believe this would make the deck more consistent, with a likelihood you could equip with one of the equipment Swords faster and earlier.
Do you need to Path to Exile your own creatures for the additional plains? Otherwise Swords to Plowshares is better. I playtested both extensively and even with PtE interaction with KotWO I felt StP is the choice removal here. I felt the land ramp for my opponent tends to hurt more for me than the life gain they potentially receive.
4x Windswept Heath should be played in place of the Zendikar fetches unless it's budget issues or you are afraid of pitching needles or Surgical Extraction.
I know you mentioned it is for casual two-headed giant matches and is not a typical Knights deck, unfortunately I also wish to add this is not a typical competitive legacy deck. I counted 44 cards and 23 lands in your decklist which is a total of 67 cards. However from what I see in the deck list it really looks like you are a big Knight fan?;)
I have no experiences in two-headed giant so I also don't know what to make of your decklist or card choices. (for example Hero of Bladehold is usually going to be better in two-headed giant games compared to 1v1 legacy game since you have more time to drop bigger creatures in.)
But nonetheless, thanks for sharing with us your 2 headed Giant knights list and how the cards work in this format. By the way I hope my primer has been of good use to you.:)
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W