Mother of Runes is arguably one of the best white creature in the game. I think OverlordChao didn't play her because he wants to have a decklist with more knights?
Honestly, it's hard to find a spot for her. Again, she would help against the sheer number of targeted removal in my meta, but every time I put her in, something usually replaces her. I will run her in place of the Knight of Meadowgrain from time to time.
Honestly, it's hard to find a spot for her. Again, she would help against the sheer number of targeted removal in my meta, but every time I put her in, something usually replaces her. I will run her in place of the Knight of Meadowgrain from time to time.
I can understand why it is hard to find a spot for Mother of Runes, when what we want is to get more knights into the deck. Then again, if your meta is full of removals, Mother is really really good - you won't regret playing her, as a resolved Mother is as good as 2 removal spells.
I can understand why it is hard to find a spot for Mother of Runes, when what we want is to get more knights into the deck. Then again, if your meta is full of removals, Mother is really really good - you won't regret playing her, as a resolved Mother is as good as 2 removal spells.
You make a valid point. Granted, taking Mirran Crusader out removes my double striker, and I already run a full set of Knight of the White Orchids... Though, I must admit, I really haven't changed my deck much since Mental Misstep was banned, and that used to be my sole reason for running Meadowgrain over Mom. I think I will replace the Meadowgrains with Moms and see what happens. I'll report back after next weeks Legacy tournament.
You make a valid point. Granted, taking Mirran Crusader out removes my double striker, and I already run a full set of Knight of the White Orchids... Though, I must admit, I really haven't changed my deck much since Mental Misstep was banned, and that used to be my sole reason for running Meadowgrain over Mom. I think I will replace the Meadowgrains with Moms and see what happens. I'll report back after next weeks Legacy tournament.
To be honest all along I wasn't really excited over Mirran Crusader's double strike, sure it was good to have but it was the protection from Green and Black that was relevant to me most of the time. Being able to stop Goyf and black removals were critical against many decks - especially during the period not too long ago when Goyf was rampant and could be seen in pretty much any deck. At the moment, we don't really see Goyf anymore, so I think there is even less reason to run him. Anyway I don't have space for other 3 cmc knights after playing 4x Knight Exemplar and 4x Knight of the Reliquary.
I didn't change much as well before/after the Mental Misstep ban, but I did came out with a Mox Knights version which was a blast to play with, which frequently bypass missteps during the early turns.
And good luck to your Legacy Tournament! By the way do you have any idea what kind of meta you will be playing in?
Yeah, my meta is about 3 Burn decks, a MBC player, one really good Gate player, and then the other half is either Merfolk/Bant/some sort of blue-based aggro-control. I'm so sick of Force of Wills, it isn't funny. So, out of a pool of 16 players, at least 6 blue-centric decks.
Yeah, my meta is about 3 Burn decks, a MBC player, one really good Gate player, and then the other half is either Merfolk/Bant/some sort of blue-based aggro-control. I'm so sick of Force of Wills, it isn't funny. So, out of a pool of 16 players, at least 6 blue-centric decks.
Just like you are sick of Force of Will, I can imagine the blue player being sick of Aether Vial! If your meta is not Wasteland heavy, you could easily add a couple of Cavern of Souls, they will be a house against control deck, but do take note that means although your creature spells can get through, all their counterspells will be left available for your non-creature spells such as Planeswalkers or removal spells. Also, Cavern of Souls is unable to level up Student of Warfare, so a opening turn Student into 2nd turn 3/3 first striker will not materialise if you put Cavern down on the opening turns.
While I am not new to running either tribal knights, or legacy, I am new to building a competitive legacy deck. So, with that being said, here is my first "attempt", after a good bit of research, at a semi-competitive knight deck:
I really would like to stick with B/W, especially for Haakon. Yes, my knights are white, except for him and Stromgald Cabal. I have thought about adding Black Knight, and Stillmoon Cavalier, but I have found that Stillmoon becomes to cost heavy as you want to pump him up, but the fact that he is Black and White makes him a great card to play as he won't be susceptible to mana color screw.
One choice that I have noticed in others' decks is a lack of Lion's Eye. Why is this? I would imagine it to be a great card, yes you lose a land or 2, and your instant/sorcery, but with Nameless Inversion, you don't completely lose removals either. And yes, you are technically top-decking after you cast it, but, unless there is graveyard hate, you still have a good bit of a hand. I imagine playing it on say turn two or three, after I have a mana base established, then going to town:
Another card I think would have a lot of synergy with the deck is Liliana of the Veil. I don't mind discarding since my hand size remains intact, but I ruin my opponent's. Also, it's another way to get Haakon out.
My meta does not really play Wasteland, or other non-basic land removal, so I'm not worried about what lands I play, but suggestions of better lands is appreciated.
Aether Vial is for ramp and to cheat Haakon into play.
All suggestions are welcome and encouraged. Thank you for the help.
Well, I went 3-1 in my last tournament. My one loss was to Belcher, which I hadn't seen at my LGS in a few months. Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Round 1 was against Burn. I'm pretty sure that they got mana-flooded in the first game, as he had 6 Mountains out by the time I killed him. The second game was a bit more evenly matched, but my T1 Mom and T2 Student was pretty hard for him to get through. In the end, it was my Jitte-equipped Student of Warfare that won. Ironically, I sideboarded all of my Leylines, and I never even drew one.
Round 2 was the loss... It went so fast that I don't remember much, but you all know how Belcher goes. Serenity never showed, and I basically got flooded with Plains in game two.
Round 3 was another easy kill. Because of my loss in Round 2, I was matched with someone who had gone 0-2 with some sort of janky mono-Green beats deck. I didn't really notice a theme, but he used a lot of Rancor-Giant Growth-other silly enchantments. Both games, I just waited until he got something really big, and then would Path it. No real challenge, but the kid was MAYBE 12 at the oldest. Not bad for his age and the crappyness of his deck.
Round 4 was the only matchup where I went to a game three, and it was against Bant Controll. Game one I dropped a T1 Vial, which was the ONLY reason I won. T2 I got Mom out with the vial, he got out Goyf. Mom proceeded to chump-block the Goyf for a few turns until I was able to Vial in Stoneforge and cheat in a Batterskull. I think he may have misplayed, because he left himself tapped out. Game two I got really, really mana-screwed. I kept a one land hand with a pair of Students, but it was a bad idea. I never got more than three mana, and no vial meant nothing stuck. He managed to get a fairly large Goyf out, and then basically kept me locked down. Game three was drawn out waaay too long. Basically, I got all of my removal, and he got all of his counterspells. He hit me a few times with a Kitchen Finks, but I finally drew another Path to put it down around turn 6. Then, when I finally got my Vial online, he kept bouncing my stuff back with his JtMS. Luckily, I think on turn 9, I drew a Mom that actually managed to land, and she protected my guys from Jace's bounce shenanigans. I started ti level a Student up, and he saved the day in the end.
I know that this isn't the most detailed or accurate report, but it was last Thursday... And I forgot most of it. Mom really did seem to help, so she stays.
While I am not new to running either tribal knights, or legacy, I am new to building a competitive legacy deck. So, with that being said, here is my first "attempt", after a good bit of research, at a semi-competitive knight deck:
I really would like to stick with B/W, especially for Haakon. Yes, my knights are white, except for him and Stromgald Cabal. I have thought about adding Black Knight, and Stillmoon Cavalier, but I have found that Stillmoon becomes to cost heavy as you want to pump him up, but the fact that he is Black and White makes him a great card to play as he won't be susceptible to mana color screw.
One choice that I have noticed in others' decks is a lack of Lion's Eye. Why is this? I would imagine it to be a great card, yes you lose a land or 2, and your instant/sorcery, but with Nameless Inversion, you don't completely lose removals either. And yes, you are technically top-decking after you cast it, but, unless there is graveyard hate, you still have a good bit of a hand. I imagine playing it on say turn two or three, after I have a mana base established, then going to town:
Another card I think would have a lot of synergy with the deck is Liliana of the Veil. I don't mind discarding since my hand size remains intact, but I ruin my opponent's. Also, it's another way to get Haakon out.
My meta does not really play Wasteland, or other non-basic land removal, so I'm not worried about what lands I play, but suggestions of better lands is appreciated.
Aether Vial is for ramp and to cheat Haakon into play.
All suggestions are welcome and encouraged. Thank you for the help.
I never thought of using Lion’s Eye Diamond in this way, discarding your whole hand including Haakon, Stromgald Scourge (hopefully) in order to cast him from the graveyard with Lion’s Eye mana, I never really approach deckbuilding Haakon deck from such a “show-hand” method because Haakon suffers from the usual vulnerability all creatures have. The problem here is, what if your opponent is holding a Lightning Bolt in his hand? Or worse….Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile? That would effectively leave you with 1 land in play and no hand, and probably nothing to do for least your next 5 or 6 turns. Anyway that is the scenario if you are trying to go off on the first turn without a proper backup plan. But as you mentioned, going off on turn 2 and 3 is a rather more safer and less risky way.
From a Strategy perspective, I notice the deck has the following ways to start the Haakon Engine going, namely:
On one hand, it is always good to have many options/outs, but I realise they will tend to undermine the deck consistency and effectiveness. Thus I felt we could take out Liliana as she does not have sufficient synergy/interaction with the other spells in the Haakon engine room.
Some other cards to consider:
Mox Diamond & Tithe package, which can allow you not only much needed acceleration during early game, but gives you a better mana base when Lion's Eye goes off. Tithe helps to recover from the self-enforced hand discard.
Student of Warfare - as a 1 CMC knight, could be a filler for whatever excess mana after casting Haakon or a 1 mana cheap blocker which can be cast every turn without over-taxing the mana base.
Deck slots are so tight I even had to remove 1x Swords to Plowshares. I reduced Nameless Inversion to 1 piece and bumped Entomb up to 3 pieces.
The land base is re-structured in a way there is a good chance of having B in the opening hand and good odds of WW by turn 3. However, I'm also not happy to only play with 20 lands. I would be more comfortable with probably 21-22 lands.
Anywhere, there goes my decklist. Feel free to discuss on it!
I remembered reading your inital version which has Order of the Sacred Torch and Stromgald Cabal which has been moved out to the sideboard. I wouldn't maindeck them anyway.
Well, I went 3-1 in my last tournament. My one loss was to Belcher, which I hadn't seen at my LGS in a few months. Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Round 1 was against Burn. I'm pretty sure that they got mana-flooded in the first game, as he had 6 Mountains out by the time I killed him. The second game was a bit more evenly matched, but my T1 Mom and T2 Student was pretty hard for him to get through. In the end, it was my Jitte-equipped Student of Warfare that won. Ironically, I sideboarded all of my Leylines, and I never even drew one.
Round 2 was the loss... It went so fast that I don't remember much, but you all know how Belcher goes. Serenity never showed, and I basically got flooded with Plains in game two.
Round 3 was another easy kill. Because of my loss in Round 2, I was matched with someone who had gone 0-2 with some sort of janky mono-Green beats deck. I didn't really notice a theme, but he used a lot of Rancor-Giant Growth-other silly enchantments. Both games, I just waited until he got something really big, and then would Path it. No real challenge, but the kid was MAYBE 12 at the oldest. Not bad for his age and the crappyness of his deck.
Round 4 was the only matchup where I went to a game three, and it was against Bant Controll. Game one I dropped a T1 Vial, which was the ONLY reason I won. T2 I got Mom out with the vial, he got out Goyf. Mom proceeded to chump-block the Goyf for a few turns until I was able to Vial in Stoneforge and cheat in a Batterskull. I think he may have misplayed, because he left himself tapped out. Game two I got really, really mana-screwed. I kept a one land hand with a pair of Students, but it was a bad idea. I never got more than three mana, and no vial meant nothing stuck. He managed to get a fairly large Goyf out, and then basically kept me locked down. Game three was drawn out waaay too long. Basically, I got all of my removal, and he got all of his counterspells. He hit me a few times with a Kitchen Finks, but I finally drew another Path to put it down around turn 6. Then, when I finally got my Vial online, he kept bouncing my stuff back with his JtMS. Luckily, I think on turn 9, I drew a Mom that actually managed to land, and she protected my guys from Jace's bounce shenanigans. I started ti level a Student up, and he saved the day in the end.
I know that this isn't the most detailed or accurate report, but it was last Thursday... And I forgot most of it. Mom really did seem to help, so she stays.
Thanks for the match reports, it is also good to read up on how a competitive knight list perform in tournaments. Also, congratulations on your 3-1 score.
A resolved Mother of Runes is very good. She probably won the matchup against Burn in game 2 since she could protect the Student equipped with Jitte and thus ensure successful hits and Jitte counters. That spells the end for the burn player naturally.
Hard luck you had to match up against Belcher in Round 2.
In your Round 3 against creatures with Rancor? First strike Knights laughs at Rancor and with your 4x Mirran Crusader, it's tough for Mono-Green to fight though that to be honest. Bad matchup for the Green player.
Matches against Bant/Team America/Stoneblade decks are always long drawn out affairs. The games with my mates playing those decks usually lasts 15-20 turns or morefor me. I don't know how long it took, maybe 20 minutes per game and more than 10 lands in play for both players by the time we finish. Long grinding game whereby the player which started first tend to have a much better chance of winning. I know a resolved opening hand Aether Vial or Mother of Runes raises our chances of winning very significantly.
Very interesting report. I run almost the same decklist and really like it. Have the same problem as you which creature to sort out for Mom. Meadowgrain with his lifelink ability did help a lot in many games. On the other hand Mirran Crusader with his protection from two (important) colors and his double strike ability is just too good. Especially protection from green is quite important cause if you don´t run Sword of Feast and Famine, which I don´t do, the protection of Crusader is so useful.
I also think the double strike is especially good in combination with the swords, dealing a tremendous amount of damage in one turn + triggering the abilities of the swords twice. So I think it´s more than a "nice to have" ability cause it can win you games. Crusader also profits most of Elspeth´s +3+3 Flying ability.
So if I compare the pros of Meadowgrain and Mirran Crusader i would also decide for running Crusader MB instead of Meadowgrain.
Other than the different abilities they offer on board, there is also the curve factor between Mirran Crusader and Knight of Meadowgrain you might need to consider. Otherwise, you could run some Basilisk Collar in the Stoneforge Package if you feel you need some lifelink in your creatures. Thereafter, run a mixture of Knight of the White Orchid, Mirran Crusader and Knight of Meadowgrain, maybe something like 3:3:2 ratio etc..
Well you have a point there but didn´t think eight 3-Mana creatures were too much. At least there is no real gap between 1 and 3 Mana with seven 2-Mana creatures (4x Knight of the White Orchid +3x Stoneforge Mystic) and other ways to spend your mana like pumping Student of Warfare or playing Umezawa's Jitte.
I´m not a big fan of Basilisk Collar. Sure, deathtouch is great in combination with first or double strike. But in most cases you will most likely pick the swords or Jitte over Basilisk Collar when playing Stoneforge Mystic. But sure, it is a way to bring in lifelink again although i don´t know if it's worth the card slot.
Putting a one-of Basilisk Collar in for the Stoneforge Package can really help make up for a lack of a Knight of Meadowgrain in the MB. Sure, in most cases you'll go for the swords, but in those long, drawn out matches, or in the aggro-heavy matches, a well timed Collar really makes a difference. The only reason I don't run it is because I need as much pro-red as I can get against the burn decks in my meta.
Well you have a point there but didn´t think eight 3-Mana creatures were too much. At least there is no real gap between 1 and 3 Mana with seven 2-Mana creatures (4x Knight of the White Orchid +3x Stoneforge Mystic) and other ways to spend your mana like pumping Student of Warfare or playing Umezawa's Jitte.
I´m not a big fan of Basilisk Collar. Sure, deathtouch is great in combination with first or double strike. But in most cases you will most likely pick the swords or Jitte over Basilisk Collar when playing Stoneforge Mystic. But sure, it is a way to bring in lifelink again although i don´t know if it's worth the card slot.
It depends, I have had times when I have a clutch of 3 CMC cards in my opening hand, so I'm wary of encountering this issue during deckbuilding. 8x 3CMC knights together with the equipment Swords, Batterskull and Phyrexian Metamorph will push us to around 30% of our cards being 3 CMC and above. I also have 8x 3CMC creature spells in my favourite GW knight lists because of 4x Knight Exemplar and 4x Knight of the Reliquary, if possible I would have prefer to reduce the numbers to lower the mana curve.
Putting a one-of Basilisk Collar in for the Stoneforge Package can really help make up for a lack of a Knight of Meadowgrain in the MB. Sure, in most cases you'll go for the swords, but in those long, drawn out matches, or in the aggro-heavy matches, a well timed Collar really makes a difference. The only reason I don't run it is because I need as much pro-red as I can get against the burn decks in my meta.
Exactly. With the Stoneforge tutor package, you could afford to play a single Basilisk Collar to get much needed lifegain. It is more reliable than Sword of Light and Shadow in gaining life, and could be the equipment of choice when you are mana screwed. It will also be useful in games when you are racing against the opponent.
There is Silver Knight available if your meta is red-heavy. I had him maindecked when Goblins, Burn and Zoo were the rage in my meta earlier on.
I want to test Basilisk Collar while having a 3:3:2 ration of White Orchid:Mirran Crusader:Meadowgrain but then I would be at 61 cards. Even if it´s just one card to throw out I´ve some real problems finding the right spot.
With just 21 lands I don´t think I can reduce them anymore. So there are just three solutions that come to my mind.
I have played 61 cards before in my knight deck, but that was with 4x Knight of the White Orchid, who got me out of many a sticky mana situations ;). I agree it does look like a very tough choice to take 1 out of the 3 knights out.
First would be a 3:2:2 ratio, so just running 2 Mirran Crusaders which would improve the manacurve a little bit. But I´m afraid this would be too inconsistent because it´s a card I really want to draw in most games.
If Mirran Crusader is a card you want to draw very much, then you shouldnt go below 3.
Third would be cutting the Phyrexian Metamorph which I think is the worst solution because it´s the only good answer to all hexproof/protection from white legendaries not to forget the flexibility to copy all possible creatures and artifacts.
Right atm I tend towards the first or second solution.
Phyrexian Metamorph is very flexible and versatile, and as you mentioned, give us an solution against quite a number of different threats which would otherwise be an automatic win for the opponent.
Nabbydian how does your GW Knight deck build look today?
I haven't really looked into it lately, so far I can only see adding a single Cavern of Souls into the GW Knight build. Anything more than 1 piece of Cavern will put us at risk of Wasteland. I'm still undecided over Batterskull or Jitte as the 3rd equipment slot.
I´ve had a couple of months break from magic but now I´m back and going to play a larger legacy tournament in september so time to start tuning the deck again.
Have been playing around with Cavern of Souls in my mind but I don´t thing it will give this deck so much. Maybe just as a Wasteland bate so i can keep my dual or Karakas?
Just wondering why you don´t play Karakas in you deck?
I can´t dare to play without it after I got slaughtered by Iona, Shield of Emeria last time I played without it.
My sideboard is still a mess. Was thinging of putting a few Ethersworn Canonist in there as i expect some people will play Storm.
So tell me what you think of the build.
I think approaching from a tournament perspective with no idea what you expect from your meta, here I'm just commenting based on the assumption the meta is equally distributed between Aggro/Combo/Control. Personally, with regards to my sideboard, I'm actually moving it towards being geared against Aggro and Control. My experiences with combo decks thus far has not been a good experience, before and after sideboarding. Sneak and Tell, Storm, High Tide and Reanimator simply walks over the deck. They are simply too resilient against the hate I put out, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist , Orim's Chant all failed to stop them because they pack too many copies of Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Pact of Negation, hand discard, creature removal etc. After 4x Tormod's Crypt and 4x Leyline of Sanctity I would rather just focus on tuning my sideboard to make sure I can win those control and aggro matchups.
I didnt add Karakas because of my fear of Wasteland. Maybe Karakas should be added I guess, so that at least we have a slight chance to bounce Iona, Shield of Emeria against Reanimator or even Dredge which tries to cast Dread Return on Iona. Karakas can also stop Vendilion Clique and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben chump blocking all day tactic. That said, our odds of drawing Karakas are extremely low....
I don't really have much to say about your main deck - since our card choices are similar, I supposed it's all about finetuning the sideboard to suit your meta from here.
I made the changes because I had the feeling that I´m not drawing enough creatures. Cutting a few equips was the obvious solution. Playing with 3 Meadowgrain and Batterskull I have enough lifelink again so I can cut down the Basilisk Collar. In most games I prefered Batterskull over Jitte so I also swapped the Jitte for another knight creature.
What I´m not really sure about is running 3x Elspeth. Although I love her abilities I drawed her more than once in many games where I could have used more creatures instead. I thought about running just 2 Elspeth and bringing in a fourth Stoneforge perhaps?
What do you think about this decklist? Would you change something? Suggestions are very much appreciated.
I usually struggle to keep my Elspeth, Knight-Errant in play, if she managed to get into the battlefield at all. Sometimes I even think 2 is not enough, that said, I didn't play more because of her non-interaction with Aether Vial & Knight Exemplar and also because I didn't want to increase the mana curve of the deck.
In that case, as per your playtesting proved, you should reduce it to 2, and increased the Stoneforge Mystic count to 4 pieces. Just to add on what I liked about the Stoneforge search for Batterskull play is that - it almost certainly draw a removal next turn. That effectively reduces a potential removal for Knight Exemplar etc
I can't see much to change here, it looks like a solid list to me, but with 21 lands in the deck, I might be willing to cut 1x Knight of the White Orchid for 1 additional Phyrexian Metamorph. Phyrexian Metamorph is extremely useful and versatile and you should run more of it if you can.
Thanks for the advice!
I´ll try running 4 Stoneforge/2 Elspeth and one additional Phyrexian Metamorph. On the paper I think these are really good changes though I´m not sure for myself if 2 Elspeth are enough cause of inconsistent draw.
The Stoneforge search for Batterskull is a real game winner, especially if the opponent has no removal or you´ve got a Mother on the field. So playing her 4x will most likely work out.
That said it's sometimes really hard to keep the knights tribal with all the equipements, Mothers and Stoneforge and the only card synergie being Knight Exemplar+another knight creature. On the other side, knight creatures are strong enough for themselves. So thankfully there aren´t many disadvantages for playing them.
There are times I also felt 2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant is not enough, but the deck really cannot afford to have it's mana curve increased further. There is already a clutch of 3 CMC Knights and equipments around, and I can't cut them either.
One of the key to Knights is their protection from colors, but nowadays I'm also moving away from them. In my earlier lists, I used to play the likes of White Knight and Silver Knight, and they would suddenly win me games out of nowhere. We even have Mirran Crusader, Stillmoon Cavalier and Paladin en-Vec against more colors. What is prevalent in many legacy decks is concentration of removal in a single color, such as Go for the Throat, Doom Blade in BU control and Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile in WU control Decks. I'm thinking with Cavern of Souls, it will be easier to fulfill the double colored mana in most knights, for example RR for Blood Knight in a RW Knights deck - the protection from W could be a massive hoser.
Due to the spate of Counterbalance/Miracle deck and RUG tempo decks in my meta, which has pretty much pushed out G/ and Mono-W Legacy Vial Knights, I decided to come out with a new knight variant to give these decks a better game.
Cavern of Souls - To render their counterspells useless and ensure we can cast the RR and WW knights easily.
I'm not sure if we still need Mother of Runes, with sacrifice effects and Terminus rampant, she doesn't seems as good as before - but I'll still sticking with her for the time being - there are occasions when an active Mother was almost impossible to deal with.
Searing Blaze - Slightly controversial, however if it doesn't work out we can just increase StP and Lightning Bolt count.
No Knight of the White Orchid? The Deck looks like it's quite weak to Wasteland, and this one could help getting more lands online.
Totally! I know the deck is weak to Wasteland, I was prepared to get wasted all day long! How many lands can they waste?
Actually the reason why I went down this route was because Duergar Hedge-Mage is one of the key cards here, so I need to run Duals for it to be effective and with Caverns, Duals and Shocks all wastable targets, I felt we can't really avoid Wasteland, thus why not go ahead and run more non-basics?
I decided to go without Knight of the White Orchid, as we might not have more lands anyway against decks which uses Wasteland.
Searing Blaze? You have Caverns to color fix the RR and WW cost of your Knights, but they only produce colorless if they're tapped for anything else - may be a bit risky.
Have you tested a bit with this version? It seems to me that it lacks some Power it would need to overcome the Midrange and Control Decks. You only get small hits through, giving your opponent a good time to stabilize. It may seem like an uncreative suggestion, but 2 or 3 Umezawa's Jitte may help out. Maybe over 2 Helix and/or something else. And we might also upp the Mirran Crusaders a bit - just for more hitting power, and to give the Goofys and opposing Knight of the Reliquary no chance for getting through.
This build remembers me on Zoo a bit - only with Knights instead of Animals, and, of course, no Green But even Zoo can't stand the power creep that's going on nowadays... I hope that the Protection the Knights bring with them is the solution.
If we could find some way to work around the Power problem, this could become a funny anti-Snapcaster Deck ^^
I have not tested the list at all, this is still in the brewing stage.
I didn't even realised it was resembling Zoo (I haven't seen Zoo around for a long time)! Then again, those 3 are one of the cheapest and most effective instant spells for RW, thus it was a no brainer to choose them! lolz
I did thought about using Umezawa's Jitte, I had it in my first version of R/ Lightning Knights. I think it could be a good replacement for the 2 Searing Blaze. I'm really counting on the protection the knights bring to be honest, I can't wait to use Blood Knights against deck running W removals and Snapcaster Mage!:rolleyes:
Yet another "uncreative" suggestion:
Cutting Mother of Runes completely. Honestly, she doesn't do anything if she's on the Battlefield alone except pinging for one. I'd rather have a 4th Student of Warfare than her in the new WR Knights list - So many of your Knights have protection on their own, it might be useless at times to have an active Mother. IMO, you should just go the Weenie Swarm Route with improved Weenies.
The Moms could be replaced with - what do I know? A 4th Student and 3 more Crusaders? Some Shared Triumph / Honor of the Pure to make the Knights hit harder - because without Mom, Knight Exemplar becomes a premier target for your opponent's removals?
And I agree that your opponent can at times only waste 4 lands a game - unless he boards in / plays cards like Life from the Loam and/or Crucible of Worlds. Decks playing those could become hard Matchups. But a Pithing Needle in the board set on Wasteland could help in this case.
Lolz - that is actually not "uncreative". Maybe should I call it an obvious suggestion?
You do put up a good case regarding Mother of Runes here. I have actually thought before of removing Mother from the list and adding in more Knights, again the "obvious" choices - the "usual suspects", Mirran Crusader and Student of Warfare. I think I will probably remove Mother for Student, White Knight and 2x Mirran Crusader.
I'm still not a fan of creature anthem spells aka Shared Triumph / Honor of the Pure, because of rampant Snapcaster flashbacked removals and Terminus - what's use having an Anthem in play and no creatures?
Rest in Peace1W
Enchantment
When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.
If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.
Illus. Terese Nielsen
This is a contender for sideboards of all Knight builds that's for sure. I think this is a better graveyard hoser than Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. Cyypt and Relic were too slow against Reanimator decks anyway(the artifact hate gets countered almost 99% of the time), but RIP it gives us a better chance to combat against Dredge.
By the way our Knight of the Reliquary should be stronger than opponent's KOTR since we are Tribal Knights - we can call upon Knight Exemplar to the rescue!!!;)
Rest in Peace
Enchantment
When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.
If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.
Illus. Terese Nielsen
This is a contender for sideboards of all Knight builds that's for sure. I think this is a better graveyard hoser than Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. Cyypt and Relic were too slow against Reanimator decks anyway(the artifact hate gets countered almost 99% of the time), but RIP it gives us a better chance to combat against Dredge.
By the way our Knight of the Reliquary should be stronger than opponent's KOTR since we are Tribal Knights - we can call upon Knight Exemplar to the rescue!!!;)
I noticed this one as well. The only concern that I have is that it costs more than any of the alternatives (Crypt and Relic). I do like that it is a constant effect, and not a one shot like the others, but I guess we'll see after some testing.
I noticed this one as well. The only concern that I have is that it costs more than any of the alternatives (Crypt and Relic). I do like that it is a constant effect, and not a one shot like the others, but I guess we'll see after some testing.
That's right about the casting cost, at 1W it is not only slower but also more vulnerable to hand discard compared to Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. I might be using Crypt and Relic wrongly against Dredge, since I was never able to disrupt/slow down their engine sufficiently enough in most of the games when I managed to lay a single Crypt - hoping to draw two crypts during the early game is a tall order :rolleyes:.
The card is strong, but I will continue with my leylines. You can drop critters and attack him. If you don't find them you lose, but hey its the same with crypt or the new enchantment. Round 2 is often too late and crypt... you see? My Paladins where lost so I have to buy a new playset. Have you seen the new s. charm? nice thing! you can create eot a 2/2 token and then drop another pump-knight. Or you can handle creatures which are too big for our critters. And if you cast +2/2 on a mirran, well ist strong and it deserves a chance!
Are you talking about Selesnya Charm on Mirran Crusader? Sadly, protection from green prevents that from happening. I was excited for a brief second, too. As it is, I don't think the charm does enough for Knights.
The card is strong, but I will continue with my leylines. You can drop critters and attack him. If you don't find them you lose, but hey its the same with crypt or the new enchantment. Round 2 is often too late and crypt... you see? My Paladins where lost so I have to buy a new playset. Have you seen the new s. charm? nice thing! you can create eot a 2/2 token and then drop another pump-knight. Or you can handle creatures which are too big for our critters. And if you cast +2/2 on a mirran, well ist strong and it deserves a chance!
Great to hear from you again! Knights FTW!!!
Are you referring to Leyline of the Void? That's definitely a better choice since you play WB knights, I felt at least we have a better chance of hard casting it compared to the Leylines, then again you are right it'll be GG if we can't find them in the first place :rolleyes:.
Sad to hear you lost your Paladins, I suppose they are the Paladin en-Vec and not Puresteel Paladin? Anyway both are not expensive lolz.
Regarding the new charm, I think it's better in Modern Knights than Legacy Knights...
Are you talking about Selesnya Charm on Mirran Crusader? Sadly, protection from green prevents that from happening. I was excited for a brief second, too. As it is, I don't think the charm does enough for Knights.
Thanks for pointing it out! We tend to forget or overlook this even during games, this is pretty similar to activating Mother of Runes's protection on a Knight equipped with Sword of Light and Shadow, or trying to Swords to Plowshares our own creature equipped with SoLS. I had this mistakes happened on me before, so I'll make sure I won't cast the charm targeting my own or any Mirran Crusader!
Honestly, it's hard to find a spot for her. Again, she would help against the sheer number of targeted removal in my meta, but every time I put her in, something usually replaces her. I will run her in place of the Knight of Meadowgrain from time to time.
I can understand why it is hard to find a spot for Mother of Runes, when what we want is to get more knights into the deck. Then again, if your meta is full of removals, Mother is really really good - you won't regret playing her, as a resolved Mother is as good as 2 removal spells.
Knight of Meadowgrain is also incredibly useful, the lifelink has been relevant in many occasions to me. With Mother of Runes in the deck, we can safely run less protection knights such as White Knight/Mirran Crusader in favor of Knight of Meadowgrain or Knight of the White Orchid etc.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
You make a valid point. Granted, taking Mirran Crusader out removes my double striker, and I already run a full set of Knight of the White Orchids... Though, I must admit, I really haven't changed my deck much since Mental Misstep was banned, and that used to be my sole reason for running Meadowgrain over Mom. I think I will replace the Meadowgrains with Moms and see what happens. I'll report back after next weeks Legacy tournament.
To be honest all along I wasn't really excited over Mirran Crusader's double strike, sure it was good to have but it was the protection from Green and Black that was relevant to me most of the time. Being able to stop Goyf and black removals were critical against many decks - especially during the period not too long ago when Goyf was rampant and could be seen in pretty much any deck. At the moment, we don't really see Goyf anymore, so I think there is even less reason to run him. Anyway I don't have space for other 3 cmc knights after playing 4x Knight Exemplar and 4x Knight of the Reliquary.
I didn't change much as well before/after the Mental Misstep ban, but I did came out with a Mox Knights version which was a blast to play with, which frequently bypass missteps during the early turns.
And good luck to your Legacy Tournament! By the way do you have any idea what kind of meta you will be playing in?
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Just like you are sick of Force of Will, I can imagine the blue player being sick of Aether Vial! If your meta is not Wasteland heavy, you could easily add a couple of Cavern of Souls, they will be a house against control deck, but do take note that means although your creature spells can get through, all their counterspells will be left available for your non-creature spells such as Planeswalkers or removal spells. Also, Cavern of Souls is unable to level up Student of Warfare, so a opening turn Student into 2nd turn 3/3 first striker will not materialise if you put Cavern down on the opening turns.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
3x Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
3x Knight of Meadowgrain
3x Knight of the White Orchid
3x Mirran Crusader
4x Knight Exemplar
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
Instant/Sorcery x15
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God
1x Damnation
3x Nameless Inversion
3x Entomb
2x Buried Alive
3x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Aether Vial
Planeswalker x2
2x Liliana of the Veil
Lands x21
4x Marsh Flats
4x Isolated Chapel
7x Plains
6x Swamp
2x Order of the Sacred Torch
2x Stromgald Cabal
I really would like to stick with B/W, especially for Haakon. Yes, my knights are white, except for him and Stromgald Cabal. I have thought about adding Black Knight, and Stillmoon Cavalier, but I have found that Stillmoon becomes to cost heavy as you want to pump him up, but the fact that he is Black and White makes him a great card to play as he won't be susceptible to mana color screw.
One choice that I have noticed in others' decks is a lack of Lion's Eye. Why is this? I would imagine it to be a great card, yes you lose a land or 2, and your instant/sorcery, but with Nameless Inversion, you don't completely lose removals either. And yes, you are technically top-decking after you cast it, but, unless there is graveyard hate, you still have a good bit of a hand. I imagine playing it on say turn two or three, after I have a mana base established, then going to town:
Turn 3:
Cast: Lion's Eye Diamond
Pop Lion's ability
Cast: Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
Cast: Random 3CMC knight
Another card I think would have a lot of synergy with the deck is Liliana of the Veil. I don't mind discarding since my hand size remains intact, but I ruin my opponent's. Also, it's another way to get Haakon out.
My meta does not really play Wasteland, or other non-basic land removal, so I'm not worried about what lands I play, but suggestions of better lands is appreciated.
Aether Vial is for ramp and to cheat Haakon into play.
All suggestions are welcome and encouraged. Thank you for the help.
Round 1 was against Burn. I'm pretty sure that they got mana-flooded in the first game, as he had 6 Mountains out by the time I killed him. The second game was a bit more evenly matched, but my T1 Mom and T2 Student was pretty hard for him to get through. In the end, it was my Jitte-equipped Student of Warfare that won. Ironically, I sideboarded all of my Leylines, and I never even drew one.
Round 2 was the loss... It went so fast that I don't remember much, but you all know how Belcher goes. Serenity never showed, and I basically got flooded with Plains in game two.
Round 3 was another easy kill. Because of my loss in Round 2, I was matched with someone who had gone 0-2 with some sort of janky mono-Green beats deck. I didn't really notice a theme, but he used a lot of Rancor-Giant Growth-other silly enchantments. Both games, I just waited until he got something really big, and then would Path it. No real challenge, but the kid was MAYBE 12 at the oldest. Not bad for his age and the crappyness of his deck.
Round 4 was the only matchup where I went to a game three, and it was against Bant Controll. Game one I dropped a T1 Vial, which was the ONLY reason I won. T2 I got Mom out with the vial, he got out Goyf. Mom proceeded to chump-block the Goyf for a few turns until I was able to Vial in Stoneforge and cheat in a Batterskull. I think he may have misplayed, because he left himself tapped out. Game two I got really, really mana-screwed. I kept a one land hand with a pair of Students, but it was a bad idea. I never got more than three mana, and no vial meant nothing stuck. He managed to get a fairly large Goyf out, and then basically kept me locked down. Game three was drawn out waaay too long. Basically, I got all of my removal, and he got all of his counterspells. He hit me a few times with a Kitchen Finks, but I finally drew another Path to put it down around turn 6. Then, when I finally got my Vial online, he kept bouncing my stuff back with his JtMS. Luckily, I think on turn 9, I drew a Mom that actually managed to land, and she protected my guys from Jace's bounce shenanigans. I started ti level a Student up, and he saved the day in the end.
I know that this isn't the most detailed or accurate report, but it was last Thursday... And I forgot most of it. Mom really did seem to help, so she stays.
Creatures:
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Stoneforge Package:
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
21 Plains
3 Serenity
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Oblivion Ring
I never thought of using Lion’s Eye Diamond in this way, discarding your whole hand including Haakon, Stromgald Scourge (hopefully) in order to cast him from the graveyard with Lion’s Eye mana, I never really approach deckbuilding Haakon deck from such a “show-hand” method because Haakon suffers from the usual vulnerability all creatures have. The problem here is, what if your opponent is holding a Lightning Bolt in his hand? Or worse….Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile? That would effectively leave you with 1 land in play and no hand, and probably nothing to do for least your next 5 or 6 turns. Anyway that is the scenario if you are trying to go off on the first turn without a proper backup plan. But as you mentioned, going off on turn 2 and 3 is a rather more safer and less risky way.
From a Strategy perspective, I notice the deck has the following ways to start the Haakon Engine going, namely:
On one hand, it is always good to have many options/outs, but I realise they will tend to undermine the deck consistency and effectiveness. Thus I felt we could take out Liliana as she does not have sufficient synergy/interaction with the other spells in the Haakon engine room.
Some other cards to consider:
Mox Diamond & Tithe package, which can allow you not only much needed acceleration during early game, but gives you a better mana base when Lion's Eye goes off. Tithe helps to recover from the self-enforced hand discard.
Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, hand discard is always relevant. To remove the dreaded exile removal spells or graveyard hate post-board.
Student of Warfare - as a 1 CMC knight, could be a filler for whatever excess mana after casting Haakon or a 1 mana cheap blocker which can be cast every turn without over-taxing the mana base.
3 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight Exemplar
2 Student of Warfare
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Nameless Inversion
3 Entomb
3 Buried Alive
Artifacts [8]
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Aether Vial
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
5 Plains
4 Swamp
Deck slots are so tight I even had to remove 1x Swords to Plowshares. I reduced Nameless Inversion to 1 piece and bumped Entomb up to 3 pieces.
The land base is re-structured in a way there is a good chance of having B in the opening hand and good odds of WW by turn 3. However, I'm also not happy to only play with 20 lands. I would be more comfortable with probably 21-22 lands.
Anywhere, there goes my decklist. Feel free to discuss on it!
I remembered reading your inital version which has Order of the Sacred Torch and Stromgald Cabal which has been moved out to the sideboard. I wouldn't maindeck them anyway.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Thanks for the match reports, it is also good to read up on how a competitive knight list perform in tournaments. Also, congratulations on your 3-1 score.
A resolved Mother of Runes is very good. She probably won the matchup against Burn in game 2 since she could protect the Student equipped with Jitte and thus ensure successful hits and Jitte counters. That spells the end for the burn player naturally.
Hard luck you had to match up against Belcher in Round 2.
In your Round 3 against creatures with Rancor? First strike Knights laughs at Rancor and with your 4x Mirran Crusader, it's tough for Mono-Green to fight though that to be honest. Bad matchup for the Green player.
Matches against Bant/Team America/Stoneblade decks are always long drawn out affairs. The games with my mates playing those decks usually lasts 15-20 turns or morefor me. I don't know how long it took, maybe 20 minutes per game and more than 10 lands in play for both players by the time we finish. Long grinding game whereby the player which started first tend to have a much better chance of winning. I know a resolved opening hand Aether Vial or Mother of Runes raises our chances of winning very significantly.
Other than the different abilities they offer on board, there is also the curve factor between Mirran Crusader and Knight of Meadowgrain you might need to consider. Otherwise, you could run some Basilisk Collar in the Stoneforge Package if you feel you need some lifelink in your creatures. Thereafter, run a mixture of Knight of the White Orchid, Mirran Crusader and Knight of Meadowgrain, maybe something like 3:3:2 ratio etc..
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Putting a one-of Basilisk Collar in for the Stoneforge Package can really help make up for a lack of a Knight of Meadowgrain in the MB. Sure, in most cases you'll go for the swords, but in those long, drawn out matches, or in the aggro-heavy matches, a well timed Collar really makes a difference. The only reason I don't run it is because I need as much pro-red as I can get against the burn decks in my meta.
It depends, I have had times when I have a clutch of 3 CMC cards in my opening hand, so I'm wary of encountering this issue during deckbuilding. 8x 3CMC knights together with the equipment Swords, Batterskull and Phyrexian Metamorph will push us to around 30% of our cards being 3 CMC and above. I also have 8x 3CMC creature spells in my favourite GW knight lists because of 4x Knight Exemplar and 4x Knight of the Reliquary, if possible I would have prefer to reduce the numbers to lower the mana curve.
Exactly. With the Stoneforge tutor package, you could afford to play a single Basilisk Collar to get much needed lifegain. It is more reliable than Sword of Light and Shadow in gaining life, and could be the equipment of choice when you are mana screwed. It will also be useful in games when you are racing against the opponent.
There is Silver Knight available if your meta is red-heavy. I had him maindecked when Goblins, Burn and Zoo were the rage in my meta earlier on.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I have played 61 cards before in my knight deck, but that was with 4x Knight of the White Orchid, who got me out of many a sticky mana situations ;). I agree it does look like a very tough choice to take 1 out of the 3 knights out.
If Mirran Crusader is a card you want to draw very much, then you shouldnt go below 3.
I like this better, cutting 1x Student of Warfare out. Besides, in most occasions, I'll get Mother of Runes or Aether Vial out first.
Phyrexian Metamorph is very flexible and versatile, and as you mentioned, give us an solution against quite a number of different threats which would otherwise be an automatic win for the opponent.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I haven't really looked into it lately, so far I can only see adding a single Cavern of Souls into the GW Knight build. Anything more than 1 piece of Cavern will put us at risk of Wasteland. I'm still undecided over Batterskull or Jitte as the 3rd equipment slot.
How is your GW knight list going along?
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Student of Warfare
Planeswalkers [2]
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Artifacts [7]
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
Lands [20]
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Retribution of the Meek
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tormod's Crypt
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I think approaching from a tournament perspective with no idea what you expect from your meta, here I'm just commenting based on the assumption the meta is equally distributed between Aggro/Combo/Control. Personally, with regards to my sideboard, I'm actually moving it towards being geared against Aggro and Control. My experiences with combo decks thus far has not been a good experience, before and after sideboarding. Sneak and Tell, Storm, High Tide and Reanimator simply walks over the deck. They are simply too resilient against the hate I put out, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist , Orim's Chant all failed to stop them because they pack too many copies of Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Pact of Negation, hand discard, creature removal etc. After 4x Tormod's Crypt and 4x Leyline of Sanctity I would rather just focus on tuning my sideboard to make sure I can win those control and aggro matchups.
I didnt add Karakas because of my fear of Wasteland. Maybe Karakas should be added I guess, so that at least we have a slight chance to bounce Iona, Shield of Emeria against Reanimator or even Dredge which tries to cast Dread Return on Iona. Karakas can also stop Vendilion Clique and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben chump blocking all day tactic. That said, our odds of drawing Karakas are extremely low....
I don't really have much to say about your main deck - since our card choices are similar, I supposed it's all about finetuning the sideboard to suit your meta from here.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I usually struggle to keep my Elspeth, Knight-Errant in play, if she managed to get into the battlefield at all. Sometimes I even think 2 is not enough, that said, I didn't play more because of her non-interaction with Aether Vial & Knight Exemplar and also because I didn't want to increase the mana curve of the deck.
In that case, as per your playtesting proved, you should reduce it to 2, and increased the Stoneforge Mystic count to 4 pieces. Just to add on what I liked about the Stoneforge search for Batterskull play is that - it almost certainly draw a removal next turn. That effectively reduces a potential removal for Knight Exemplar etc
I can't see much to change here, it looks like a solid list to me, but with 21 lands in the deck, I might be willing to cut 1x Knight of the White Orchid for 1 additional Phyrexian Metamorph. Phyrexian Metamorph is extremely useful and versatile and you should run more of it if you can.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
There are times I also felt 2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant is not enough, but the deck really cannot afford to have it's mana curve increased further. There is already a clutch of 3 CMC Knights and equipments around, and I can't cut them either.
That's why Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic is so good. When the equipment lands we are usually on the way.;)
One of the key to Knights is their protection from colors, but nowadays I'm also moving away from them. In my earlier lists, I used to play the likes of White Knight and Silver Knight, and they would suddenly win me games out of nowhere. We even have Mirran Crusader, Stillmoon Cavalier and Paladin en-Vec against more colors. What is prevalent in many legacy decks is concentration of removal in a single color, such as Go for the Throat, Doom Blade in BU control and Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile in WU control Decks. I'm thinking with Cavern of Souls, it will be easier to fulfill the double colored mana in most knights, for example RR for Blood Knight in a RW Knights deck - the protection from W could be a massive hoser.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Card Choices for RW Vial Knights:
Blood Knight - protection from W to stop Swords to Plowshares and flashbacked StP via Snapcaster Mage.
Silver Knight - protection from R good against RUG's red removal spells. First strike knights to chump block and kill their Nimble Mongoose.
Duergar Hedge-Mage - landing this guy at the right time could break the Counterbalance lock.
Cavern of Souls - To render their counterspells useless and ensure we can cast the RR and WW knights easily.
I'm not sure if we still need Mother of Runes, with sacrifice effects and Terminus rampant, she doesn't seems as good as before - but I'll still sticking with her for the time being - there are occasions when an active Mother was almost impossible to deal with.
Searing Blaze - Slightly controversial, however if it doesn't work out we can just increase StP and Lightning Bolt count.
4 Blood Knight
3 Silver Knight
1 White Knight
4 Duergar Hedge-Mage
4 Knight Exemplar
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Student of Warfare
4 Mother of Runes
4 AEther Vial
Spells [12]
2 Searing Blaze
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Swords to Plowshares
Lands [20]
4 Arid Mesa
2 Marsh Flats
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Plateau
2 Sacred Foundry
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Totally! I know the deck is weak to Wasteland, I was prepared to get wasted all day long! How many lands can they waste?
Actually the reason why I went down this route was because Duergar Hedge-Mage is one of the key cards here, so I need to run Duals for it to be effective and with Caverns, Duals and Shocks all wastable targets, I felt we can't really avoid Wasteland, thus why not go ahead and run more non-basics?
I decided to go without Knight of the White Orchid, as we might not have more lands anyway against decks which uses Wasteland.
I have to agree with you, Searing Blaze RR is a big problem here especially with Caverns of Souls. I will be replacing it with more Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt - or even another creature.
I have not tested the list at all, this is still in the brewing stage.
I didn't even realised it was resembling Zoo (I haven't seen Zoo around for a long time)!
I did thought about using Umezawa's Jitte, I had it in my first version of R/ Lightning Knights. I think it could be a good replacement for the 2 Searing Blaze. I'm really counting on the protection the knights bring to be honest, I can't wait to use Blood Knights against deck running W removals and Snapcaster Mage!:rolleyes:
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Lolz - that is actually not "uncreative". Maybe should I call it an obvious suggestion?
You do put up a good case regarding Mother of Runes here. I have actually thought before of removing Mother from the list and adding in more Knights, again the "obvious" choices - the "usual suspects", Mirran Crusader and Student of Warfare. I think I will probably remove Mother for Student, White Knight and 2x Mirran Crusader.
I'm still not a fan of creature anthem spells aka Shared Triumph / Honor of the Pure, because of rampant Snapcaster flashbacked removals and Terminus - what's use having an Anthem in play and no creatures?
Since the deck is playing Aether Vial, we may also not suffer terribly from Wasteland. Pitching Needle might go into the sideboard for sure because of it's versatility, by the way, Duergar Hedge-Mage could also hit Crucible of Worlds.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Rest in Peace 1W
Enchantment
When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.
If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.
Illus. Terese Nielsen
This is a contender for sideboards of all Knight builds that's for sure. I think this is a better graveyard hoser than Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. Cyypt and Relic were too slow against Reanimator decks anyway(the artifact hate gets countered almost 99% of the time), but RIP it gives us a better chance to combat against Dredge.
It also works against Life from the Loam decks (read Lands, Aggro Loam), Snapcaster Mage, decks using Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary and Terravore (read Zoo, Maverick, The Rock) as beaters.
By the way our Knight of the Reliquary should be stronger than opponent's KOTR since we are Tribal Knights - we can call upon Knight Exemplar to the rescue!!!;)
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I noticed this one as well. The only concern that I have is that it costs more than any of the alternatives (Crypt and Relic). I do like that it is a constant effect, and not a one shot like the others, but I guess we'll see after some testing.
That's right about the casting cost, at 1W it is not only slower but also more vulnerable to hand discard compared to Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. I might be using Crypt and Relic wrongly against Dredge, since I was never able to disrupt/slow down their engine sufficiently enough in most of the games when I managed to lay a single Crypt - hoping to draw two crypts during the early game is a tall order :rolleyes:.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Are you talking about Selesnya Charm on Mirran Crusader? Sadly, protection from green prevents that from happening. I was excited for a brief second, too. As it is, I don't think the charm does enough for Knights.
Great to hear from you again! Knights FTW!!!
Are you referring to Leyline of the Void? That's definitely a better choice since you play WB knights, I felt at least we have a better chance of hard casting it compared to the Leylines, then again you are right it'll be GG if we can't find them in the first place :rolleyes:.
Sad to hear you lost your Paladins, I suppose they are the Paladin en-Vec and not Puresteel Paladin? Anyway both are not expensive lolz.
Regarding the new charm, I think it's better in Modern Knights than Legacy Knights...
Thanks for pointing it out! We tend to forget or overlook this even during games, this is pretty similar to activating Mother of Runes's protection on a Knight equipped with Sword of Light and Shadow, or trying to Swords to Plowshares our own creature equipped with SoLS. I had this mistakes happened on me before, so I'll make sure I won't cast the charm targeting my own or any Mirran Crusader!
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W