So I but the Burt and bought my missing LED on mtgo to properly test the deck I did 2 1v1 legacy constructed ques
First match was tin fins we trade duress abd cabals game 1 abd I still go off turn 4 thanks to a good brainstorm . Games 2 AND 3 he opens double Leyline if sanctity abd I still almost win game 2 with pry but he fluster storms me.
Match 2 is sneak and show I win game 1 lose game 2 too force of will. Get horrible hands game 3 and lose a slow match where I can't draw led it DR for my life goid practice though
So I was reading storm boards today and someone said they are having alot of success running surgicals SB. Surgical is a house in my meta and the main combo ddcks are ringing reanimator and like 1 ad naus 1 show and tell player. These matchups are not my best and seem harder without white not only that but surgical is very good against lands and most fair decks in my metagame. I'm considering cuttin IGGY IU and shipping a tropical MD for a fetch or sea not sure which is better to run 3 in my SB thoughts? I think thus change is much better for my meta than Emmy. However I do Wang to give emerakul a shot dk maybe cut massacre for now ( no one plays maverik or dNT) and playing 2 SB Surgicals and putting in Emmy package thoughts?
Well finally got to play this deck again after losing a week to DGM pre release (at least I got 3rd in that) I played on a differnt night. IU in board had continued to seem good but a i got paired with a Tom a favorable matchups and I could open I hand without dark ritual and led sometimes this deck just let's you smash. Notable I did wish for my IC one game aginst somone with pyro I saw in his hand and won so that was nice. My SB is still not doing enough for me however not sure what to add considering I did so well.
would it be a good idea to centralise all of the information about doomsday here in this thread? Every now and again someone makes a thread about doomsday decks, would be great to have somewhat of a centralising thread about it (even though a primer apparently wishfull thinking).
Not to kill another thread..... But here was my opinion on it a few weeks ago.
I'll also add, that anyone really interested is better off going to the storm boards, as they have an entire section devoted to DDFT. Breaking it into categories as the deck is complicated enough to warrant multiple threads discussing the various intricacies of the deck, which the designers there have come to understand gets lost in a single localized thread.
I could write a thread about the basics, and with some basic piles and the such. The deck is sooo in-depth, though. A thread like this is really more about sideboarding for certain matchups.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: Modern is Bad
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
Played on mtgo till 4 am last night ;/. Won some good matches played vs esper stone blade had done really close games where I spiraled into tendrils just short of lethal at 4 life then empty the warrens for the win. Duressing force of wills left and right. The piles are getting very easy now I can do them in my sleep make new ones on the fly.
I got crushed however by mass discard not sure how you beat someone running 4 hymn 4 seize 4 duress was quite frustrating to almost be able to win on nothing mutiple turns in a row I won game 1 but games 2-3 double hymn + duress / seize is really rough
Beat ANT ws very happy with that but he drew poorly and one game I blind cabal 2 duress turn 1 that was cool.
Feeling much more confidant in my spiral and double DD piles now. Still addicted to this deck.
Im pretty new to DDFT. I have been playing ANT for a while, and for a long time that was pretty much the only deck i ever wanted to play. I have been reading about, goldfishing, and playtesting DDFT for a lil bit now, and this deck seems insanely awesome.
The one thing i can say, is learning this deck is incredibly difficult. Not only because, yeah, the deck is hard.. but also because there is just sooooo much info to read, and so many differing opinions.
When i was first starting to goldfish the deck i was having difficulty figuring out piles, and trying to find piles online for reference can be a taxing ordeal.
so in order to help myself figure these things out, i started writing out the basic skeletons of usable piles. i figured it might be handy for anyone else trying to learn how to pilot this beast as well, so ill post em here.
In hand: Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Lion's Eye Diamond
In Play: Sensei's Divining Top, (B)source(Land or Lotus Petal)
--> Play DR(1 storm), DD(2) --building this pile-->
Ideas Unboud
LED
Gitaxian Probe
LED
Burning wish
-->Play LED(3), crack LED for UUU, Draw with top, play Ideas Unbound(4), GP(5), SDT(6), LED(7), LED(8), crack LEDs for BBB RRR, draw with SDT, Burning Wish(9), Tendrils of Agony
In hand: DR,DD,LED,GP(or another cantrip and (U) available)
In Play: (B)source
-->DR(1),DD(2) -
IU
LED
LED
GP
BW
-->LED(3), GP(4)response crack LED for UUU, IU(5), LED(6), LED(7), GP(8) crack LEDs for BBB RRR, BW(9), TOA
In hand: DR, DD, GP
In Play: (B)source, SDT
-->DR(1), DD(2) -
LED
IU
LED
LED
BW
-->GP(3), LED(4), crack LED for UUU, draw with SDT, IU(5), LED(6), LED(7), SDT(8), crack LEDS for BBB RRR, draw wiith SDT, BW(9), TOA
In hand: GP, GP, DR, DD
In Play: (B)source, (R)source
-->DR(1), DD(2) -
LED
IU
LED
LED
BW
-->GP(3), LED(4), GP(5)resp crack LED for UUU, IU(6), LED(7), LED(8), BW(9)resp crack LEDs for BBBUUU, TOA
[===============================================]
Single Hate ( Gaddock Teeg, Leyline of Sanctity ) Basic Piles
[===============================================]
--SDT Single Hate basic pile--
In hand: DR, DD, LED
In play, SDT, (B)source,(U)source,(1)source
--> DR(1), DD(2) -
IU
LED
Chain of Vapor
LED
BW
-->LED(3), crack LED for UUU, draw with SDT, IU(4), LED(5), SDT(6), draw with SDT resp CoV(7) on SDT, sac a land and CoV(8) on the hatecard, SDT(9), LED(10), crack LEDs for BBB RRR, draw with SDT, BW(11), TOA
In hand: DR, DD, LED, GP,GP
In Play: (B), (1)
--> DR(1), DD(2) -
LED
IU
LED
CoV
BW
-->GP(3), LED(4), LED(5), GP(6)resp crack LED for RRR UUU, IU(7), LED(8), CoV(9) on the hatecard, BW(10)resp crack LED for BBB, TOA
[======================================]
-----------Empty the Warrens Basic Piles-------------
[======================================]
--SDT DD Empty the Warrens basic pile--
In Hand: DR, DD, LED
In play: SDT, (B)
-->DR(1), DD(2) -
IU
LED
LED
BW
DD
-->
LED(3),crack for UUU, draw with SDT, IU(4), LED(4), LED(5), SDT(6), crack LEDs for BBB RRR, draw with SDT, BW(7), Empty the warrens for 16, with 2 turns to attack. If you have mana to play the last doomsday you can rebuild the pile without BW for more turns to swing.
In hand: DR, DD, LED, GP, GP
In play: (B),
--> DR(1), DD(2) -
LED
BW
Duress, or CoV(make sure you have (U) available)
DR
DD
-->GP(3), LED(4), LED(5), GP(6)resp crack LEDs for RRR BBB, BW(7), EtW for 16 with 3+ turns to attack
In Hand: DR, DD, GP, GP
In Play: SDT, (B)
-->DR(1), DD(2) -
LED
LED
BW
DR or Duress or CoV
DD
-->GP(3), GP(4), LED(5),LED(6), crack LEDs for BBB RRR, draw with top, BW(7), EtW for 16 with 3+ turns to attack
In hand: (U)*, DR, DD
In Play: (B)
--> DR, DD -
Shelldock Isle
Emrakul
Duress or CoV or Wipe Away or (U)
DR or Duress or CoV or WA
DD
-->pass turn, draw SI, play SI and hide Emrakul, pass turn, draw duress, play duress, play (U), tap and activate SI to play Emrakul, take an extra turn, if you need to you can play doomsday for extra turns to swing
*note: if you dont have access (U) pre DD, you can stack (U) in place of duress in the pile
--Cantrip/ SDT basic Shelldock pile--
--Land Drop Available--
In hand: (U)*, DR, DD, GP(or any cantrip and (U), or SDT in play)
In play: (B), SDT( or a Cantrip in hand with a way to play it)
--> DR, DD -
SI
Emrakul
Duress or CoV or WA or (U)
DR
DD
--> Cantrip, or draw with SDT, play shelldock hiding Emrakul, pass turn, play (U), play duress, activate Shelldock to play Emrakul.
*note: if you dont have access (U) pre DD, you can stack (U) in place of duress in the pile.
Like i said im rather new to DDFT, so some of those piles may not be the most efficient. You need to take each pile with a grain of salt because of the innumerable variables in each game. and my lack of experience.
If there's anyone who knows the deck better than me, and sees some ways i could do things better, please let me know! I feel pretty determined to play this deck for the long haul
Also, im having a rough time with pass the turn piles than can reach lethal storm. I cant seem to figure out double doomsday piles. Ive also read Time Spiral can be used for pass the turn piles, but is it worth while without chant effects?
I'm on my phone right now so I can't say much. A few questions, though:
Have you applied for Storm Boards?
Why would you play Inquisition of Kozilek?
Do you have the cards to splash green?
Why aren't you playing Time Spiral? You Time Spiral against decks without counters, so it's worth it even with no Chants. I normally Time Spiral as the Hail Mary against Discard decks like Jund or BW decks--even if they do have counters, you do draw discard so it's worth a shot--I'd say that Time Spiral is easily better than some of your other sideboard slots now.
I have applied for storm boards. i actually posted pretty much the same exact post over there too.
I play inquisition because i don't have thoughtseize, and because i don't have access to the cards to play green either. If i did, i would probably run some number of abrupt decay and swarm in the board.
And im not playing time spiral because i don't know how to make that thing work.
If you could run me though a basic time spiral pile that would great.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
I have applied for storm boards. i actually posted pretty much the same exact post over there too.
I play inquisition because i don't have thoughtseize, and because i don't have access to the cards to play green either. If i did, i would probably run some number of abrupt decay and swarm in the board.
And im not playing time spiral because i don't know how to make that thing work.
If you could run me though a basic time spiral pile that would great.
a time spiral pile would look something like this when i managed to pull it off.~
IU,LED,LED,BW,BW. my field had a underground sea and a volcanic island sitting in play.
play 2 LED from my hand (2 storm) dark rit, doomsday(4storm), gitaxian probe(5storm) cracking the leds for UUU RRR, grabbing IU, playit (6storm) grab LED,LED, BW. play both LEDS (8storm) cast burning wish(9storm) with the red mana. breaking the LEDS for UUUUUU, and you still have UR left from the last LEDS.
Grabbing timespiral from the sideboard. cast it (10 storm.) so get rid of the dark rit, the burning wish. say you draw into LED LED LED LED, gprobe, BW, and doomsday. just cast the LED's (14 storm), gitaxian probe(15) play burning wish (16) with your still floating UR and break the LEDS for straight up BBB BBB BBB BBB. grab and cast tendrils (17 storm.) ftw.
probably not the best example but it worked for me loll~
I have applied for storm boards. i actually posted pretty much the same exact post over there too.
I play inquisition because i don't have thoughtseize, and because i don't have access to the cards to play green either. If i did, i would probably run some number of abrupt decay and swarm in the board.
And im not playing time spiral because i don't know how to make that thing work.
If you could run me though a basic time spiral pile that would great.
Thoughtseize isn't a common card for this deck in the first place, so it seems like a weak justification for playing Inquisition.
Without Green, I'd probably play a Wipe Away and some Echoing Truths.
I've gone over why I think the second Ideas Unbound in the sideboard is weaker than playing an Infernal Contract, too.
Concerning Time Spiral...I think you should learn how the card works instead of immediately replacing it. At the least, you'd be more likely to learn on your own by having it in your 75 to be aware of situations when it would work for you. That's merely my opinion, though. I see that you're on the storm boards, and there are some in depth threads on using Time Spiral. It's really that good, you're doing a disservice to yourself by not including it.
Sure, thoughtsieze isn't played in many lists, but that's because those lists have xantid swarms in the board, and/or are playing chant effects. 7 discard is not enough to reliably beat blue heavy decks.
As far as time spiral goes, it is in no way "replaced"
this is the list i have been testing most recently when i play other people, but i still frequently goldfish with time spiral in the board. I havent been able to find anywhere that goes in depth on time spiral piles(i know the info is out there, but spilt across 3 forums on multiple threads, its very hard to find.)
and im not trying to punt games against real people, so i don't feel confidant enough yet to put it in the board.
you might be right though, just having it there during games might help me see the line when it opens up.
infernal contract may very well be better than ideas unbound. i don't have a counter argument there. I guess i have alot more reading and alot more goldfishing/playtesting to do.
Can anyone help out with pass the turn-double doomsday piles?
From what i read, its either time spiral, or double DD that lets you reach lethal storm in pass the turn piles.
Im constantly reading through back pages on the stormboards, but there is ALOT to go through, and much of it is outdated, or using meditate/IGG,Tendrils main
*Edit- just found the "pass the turn strategy" thread on storm boards.. don't know how i missed that so many times!
The list I'm playing has seven discard spells, doesn't play Xantid Swarm nor Chants, and I haven't had any trouble against blue decks. Could you be more specific about the type of deck you're saying you can't beat with 7 discard?
I agree that the info is a little bit hard to find, but it's certainly there and using the search function helps. I'd direct you to the information myself if I weren't out on business at the moment.
There's a discussion on the Storm Boarda about Ideas Unbound versus Infernal Contract in the sideboard. I think moxnix on this thread is the only person who plays the sideboard Ideas Unbound, and every other list plays Contract instead--there is an actual upside to sideboarded Ideas, but I've never felt like it was necessary. In the end though, what you do is up to you, and if you're just learning the deck now, trying to learn Contract piles might get to be too much.
would you mind posting your sideboard for reference?
the decks i have trouble with are most of the tempo builds that play 8 or more counters main and can side in even more, the UW control decks game 1 isn't bad(if they aren't running CB, or they just dont get it online) but they usually have flusterstorms, spell pierces, etc coming in game 2, same with most of the stoneblade decks. Alot of these deck pack tons of extra disruption in the board.
i managed to find the info on double doomsday and timespiral piles. they're surprisingly easy once they're explained decently.
I can say, that while i haven't played this at a local event yet, we have at least 3 Maverick, DnT, and Deadguy running around, some stone blade variants, and then tons of combo. My odd sideboard might be a reflection of that, as well as my inexperience with the deck.
Infernal Contract blanking REB/ Pyroblast is almost a good enough reason all by itself to play it. i suppose at some point ill look more into it. One step at a time though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
Karakas
Shelldock Isle
Tropical Island
Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
Cruel Bargain
Doomsday
Massacre
2 Tendrils of Agony
Empty the Warrens
Time Spiral
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Tempo can be hard because it's the disruption and a clock together that beat you, but control decks are too slow to not get beaten by all your discard (even at 7; Burning Wish is actually pieces 8-11 through the sideboard Therapy). Soft counters out of those decks are easy to play around.
Your meta makes your sideboard make sense. Just take care not to warp your gameplay so much that you couldn't bring the deck to an open meta and understand what to do.
Can i ask what the second tendrils in the board is for? Ive seen it in a few lists, but haven't actually seen an explanation for why its there.
Also, why massacre? Not scared of Teeg?
I don't plan on playing this in an open any time soon, but thanks for the heads up. The list i put up certainly isn't set in stone. I still feel incredibly new to the archetype and i still have alot to learn.
Piloting this deck is probably the most fun I've had playing Magic. It certainly takes alot of effort to learn, but it feels incredibly rewarding, even in the early stages like im at.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
Can i ask what the second tendrils in the board is for? Ive seen it in a few lists, but haven't actually seen an explanation for why its there.
Also, why massacre? Not scared of Teeg?
I don't plan on playing this in an open any time soon, but thanks for the heads up. The list i put up certainly isn't set in stone. I still feel incredibly new to the archetype and i still have alot to learn.
Piloting this deck is probably the most fun I've had playing Magic. It certainly takes alot of effort to learn, but it feels incredibly rewarding, even in the early stages like im at.
there's possibilities for double tendril piles i think~
Here's the double Doomsday and Time Spiral piles i found--
--Double Doomsday pile--
(U)(U)(1) + LED available post Doomsday
-->DD -
IU
SDT
DD
LED
BW
-->pass the turn, LED(1),IU(2)resp crack LED for BBB, LED(3), SDT(4), DD(5)resp crack LED for UUU -
IU
LED
LED
BW
( )
-->draw with SDT, IU(6), LED(7), LED(7), SDT(8), crack LEDs for BBB RRR, draw with top, BW(9), TOA
--Time Spiral pile--
In Hand: DR, DD, LED, (*)
In Play: Usea, (U)*with extra card in hand - or Petal/ Fetchland
--> DR, DD
IU
LED
LED
BW
BW
-->pass turn, LED(1), IU(2)resp crack LED for RRR, LED(3), LED(4), BW(5)resp crack LEDs for UUU UUU, TSP(6), draw and untap, LED(7),LED(8),LED(9), BW(10)resp crack LEDs for BBB BBB, TOA
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
Can i ask what the second tendrils in the board is for? Ive seen it in a few lists, but haven't actually seen an explanation for why its there.
Also, why massacre? Not scared of Teeg?
I don't plan on playing this in an open any time soon, but thanks for the heads up. The list i put up certainly isn't set in stone. I still feel incredibly new to the archetype and i still have alot to learn.
Piloting this deck is probably the most fun I've had playing Magic. It certainly takes alot of effort to learn, but it feels incredibly rewarding, even in the early stages like im at.
I use the second Tendrils against decks where I would actually need to cast a mini-Tendrils (Burn), against the decks that you would expect to side in Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, and I side it in against Gaddock Teeg decks because it makes your "Tutor up a Chain of Vapor" pile cost less mana (see below).
Teeg is a joke against this deck. The way you win the game includes casting a 3 mana spell that tutors up the answers in your deck to a Teeg. Teeg and Thalia together could be rough, but Maverick has been on the decline for a while so it hasn't come up. Virtue's Ruin is fine, but it can be slow against a Thalia, and Massacre has applications against non-white creatures in decks that play white (for example, killing Vendillion Cliques and Snapcaster Mages out of Stoneblade). In a heavier Thalia/Teeg Metagame, I'd be playing extra copies of Karakas before anything else, because most players opt for the legendary hatebears over something like Ethersworn Canonist, and Thalia decks are often Mother of Runes decks as well. I think Dread of Night is only good when people are also playing Aven Mindcensor.
Thanks, everything you said definitely makes sense.
I think what Dread of Night does for me is stop Thalia, but also Mother of Runes. Because like you said, Teeg is easy to play around. So as long as Mom isn't out, i can make a simple chain pile to beat a Teeg.
I agree Virtue's Ruin can be slow, but it can wipe out a a field full of hatebears, where massacre sometimes cant. What do you do against Thalia+Teeg? or even worse Thalia+Teeg+Mom or Another bear(Sounds ridiculous, but i have played games where my opponent goes; T1 Mom, T2 Thalia, T3 Teeg). I agree that massacre being able to kill a slew of other guys is a huge factor though. And in a larger meta, i can see it being almost strictly better(unless maverick makes a comeback).
I don't have access to Karakas unfortunately, so for now that option isn't possible.
What Dread of Night does is turn off Thalia, with Mother of Runes as collateral damage. Every other card you could be playing in that spot is more versatile, unless you're shutting off multiple X/1 disruptive White creatures. What I am saying here is that Dread of Night is basically only "Kill all Thalias" unless you know your opponent is playing cards like Aven Mindcensor or Glowrider--in a perfect world, Mother of Runes is a non-issue because you have mass removal in your sideboard as a Wish target, in addition to Karakas as a colorless answer to the most commonly played hatebears (and one Dread of Night alone wouldn't stop the others anyway). However, you're saying that you don't have access to Karakas, so I can understand where you're coming from. In the past, players had both Virtue's Ruin and Massacre in the sideboard so you could Wish for one or the other, with more broad answers like a Karakas in the main and Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, or Slaughter Pact in the sideboard. That configuration only actually devotes Virtue's Ruin to Teeg + Thalia decks, because all of your other cards still do things against other matchups.
What do I do against Thalia and Teeg? To be honest, I usually dodge it entirely. This deck is very customizable, and Maverick hasn't been around for a while so recent builds are moving away from caring about those two cards together. For real though, Cabal Therapy to name hatebear cards before they come down hasn't been bad at all, and trying to find Chain of Vapor for one hatebear or the other is basically my only solution, with Karakas and Abrupt Decay coming out of the sideboard for Games 2 and 3. Mother of Runes into Thalia and Teeg is the nightmare scenario, but I'm willing to concede that happening to me if it occurs, because it's not particularly likely these days.
So i have been playing this deck a lot again both in paper and on mtgo ill be recording games as i go and posting videos to my you tube channel im not very good at typing ideas out but im not as bad at talking hopefully i get enough up to help people learn the deck this game was not very exciting but it will give you a taste i have been having pretty good results lately and having now played doomsday in edh for a long time and grinding this deck out i no longer even think about my piles i can just see the lines my goal is to make some easy videos and just tell people what im thinking during any given game and hopefully it helps people learn the deck faster before they give up on it with the information overload of the storm boards. http://youtu.be/M64Qyl6assQ
First off, DDFT has a thread in the established section now, so it might be better to post there.
Now then...God bless you for being able to play MTGO. The way I learned how to play the deck was to watch clips of a player online, just like you're doing now. I felt kind of bad about not being able to refer people to what I used to learn (because the clips are so outdated), and I had the deck on MTGO for a little while, but I hate MTGO's interface so much that I couldn't play it.
I think it would help if you would speak a little more slowly--I know I caught everything you were doing because I know what you're doing already. I don't know that the audience you are directing this toward will be able to catch everything. If possible, you should try playing games in real time and narrating your thoughts that way, because maneuvering yourself to a position where you can even cast a Doomsday is the hard part, I'd say.
Also, I see that you're still playing IGG and Ideas Unbound in the board. How are they working out for you? You can tell I'm still not on board with them, but in the MTGO metagame I feel like there are Red Blasts basically everywhere so I'm wondering if you use the sideboarded Ideas Unbound enough to make it better than being able to dodge getting blasted, and so many people have no idea how Doomsday works that enough of them really just bring graveyard hate in to the point that I'm wondering if the times you have wanted to use IGG are enough to outweigh having no graveyard cards in your deck to make the hate truly dead.
All in all though, I like what you're doing and I think you should keep it up.
First match was tin fins we trade duress abd cabals game 1 abd I still go off turn 4 thanks to a good brainstorm . Games 2 AND 3 he opens double Leyline if sanctity abd I still almost win game 2 with pry but he fluster storms me.
Match 2 is sneak and show I win game 1 lose game 2 too force of will. Get horrible hands game 3 and lose a slow match where I can't draw led it DR for my life goid practice though
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Not to kill another thread..... But here was my opinion on it a few weeks ago.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=494102&page=2
I'll also add, that anyone really interested is better off going to the storm boards, as they have an entire section devoted to DDFT. Breaking it into categories as the deck is complicated enough to warrant multiple threads discussing the various intricacies of the deck, which the designers there have come to understand gets lost in a single localized thread.
UBRWDDFTWBRU
UBRWGTESGWRBU
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
I got crushed however by mass discard not sure how you beat someone running 4 hymn 4 seize 4 duress was quite frustrating to almost be able to win on nothing mutiple turns in a row I won game 1 but games 2-3 double hymn + duress / seize is really rough
Beat ANT ws very happy with that but he drew poorly and one game I blind cabal 2 duress turn 1 that was cool.
Feeling much more confidant in my spiral and double DD piles now. Still addicted to this deck.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Heres the list i have been playing:
The one thing i can say, is learning this deck is incredibly difficult. Not only because, yeah, the deck is hard.. but also because there is just sooooo much info to read, and so many differing opinions.
When i was first starting to goldfish the deck i was having difficulty figuring out piles, and trying to find piles online for reference can be a taxing ordeal.
so in order to help myself figure these things out, i started writing out the basic skeletons of usable piles. i figured it might be handy for anyone else trying to learn how to pilot this beast as well, so ill post em here.
[=================================]
-----------------Basic Piles-----------------------
[=================================]
--Sensei's Divining Top basic pile--
In hand: Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Lion's Eye Diamond
In Play: Sensei's Divining Top, (B)source(Land or Lotus Petal)
--> Play DR(1 storm), DD(2) --building this pile-->
Ideas Unboud
LED
Gitaxian Probe
LED
Burning wish
-->Play LED(3), crack LED for UUU, Draw with top, play Ideas Unbound(4), GP(5), SDT(6), LED(7), LED(8), crack LEDs for BBB RRR, draw with SDT, Burning Wish(9), Tendrils of Agony
------------------------------------------------------------------
--Cantrip basic pile--
In hand: DR,DD,LED,GP(or another cantrip and (U) available)
In Play: (B)source
-->DR(1),DD(2) -
IU
LED
LED
GP
BW
-->LED(3), GP(4)response crack LED for UUU, IU(5), LED(6), LED(7), GP(8) crack LEDs for BBB RRR, BW(9), TOA
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--SDT + Cantrip basic pile--
In hand: DR, DD, GP
In Play: (B)source, SDT
-->DR(1), DD(2) -
LED
IU
LED
LED
BW
-->GP(3), LED(4), crack LED for UUU, draw with SDT, IU(5), LED(6), LED(7), SDT(8), crack LEDS for BBB RRR, draw wiith SDT, BW(9), TOA
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--Double Cantrip basic pile--
In hand: GP, GP, DR, DD
In Play: (B)source, (R)source
-->DR(1), DD(2) -
LED
IU
LED
LED
BW
-->GP(3), LED(4), GP(5)resp crack LED for UUU, IU(6), LED(7), LED(8), BW(9)resp crack LEDs for BBBUUU, TOA
[===============================================]
Single Hate ( Gaddock Teeg, Leyline of Sanctity ) Basic Piles
[===============================================]
--SDT Single Hate basic pile--
In hand: DR, DD, LED
In play, SDT, (B)source,(U)source,(1)source
--> DR(1), DD(2) -
IU
LED
Chain of Vapor
LED
BW
-->LED(3), crack LED for UUU, draw with SDT, IU(4), LED(5), SDT(6), draw with SDT resp CoV(7) on SDT, sac a land and CoV(8) on the hatecard, SDT(9), LED(10), crack LEDs for BBB RRR, draw with SDT, BW(11), TOA
------------------------------------------------------------------
--Double Cantrip Single Hate basic pile--
In hand: DR, DD, LED, GP,GP
In Play: (B), (1)
--> DR(1), DD(2) -
LED
IU
LED
CoV
BW
-->GP(3), LED(4), LED(5), GP(6)resp crack LED for RRR UUU, IU(7), LED(8), CoV(9) on the hatecard, BW(10)resp crack LED for BBB, TOA
[======================================]
-----------Empty the Warrens Basic Piles-------------
[======================================]
--SDT DD Empty the Warrens basic pile--
In Hand: DR, DD, LED
In play: SDT, (B)
-->DR(1), DD(2) -
IU
LED
LED
BW
DD
-->
LED(3),crack for UUU, draw with SDT, IU(4), LED(4), LED(5), SDT(6), crack LEDs for BBB RRR, draw with SDT, BW(7), Empty the warrens for 16, with 2 turns to attack. If you have mana to play the last doomsday you can rebuild the pile without BW for more turns to swing.
------------------------------------------------------------------
--Double Cantrip DD EtW basic pile--
In hand: DR, DD, LED, GP, GP
In play: (B),
--> DR(1), DD(2) -
LED
BW
Duress, or CoV(make sure you have (U) available)
DR
DD
-->GP(3), LED(4), LED(5), GP(6)resp crack LEDs for RRR BBB, BW(7), EtW for 16 with 3+ turns to attack
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--Double Cantrip STD EtW basic pile--
In Hand: DR, DD, GP, GP
In Play: SDT, (B)
-->DR(1), DD(2) -
LED
LED
BW
DR or Duress or CoV
DD
-->GP(3), GP(4), LED(5),LED(6), crack LEDs for BBB RRR, draw with top, BW(7), EtW for 16 with 3+ turns to attack
[====================================]
-------Shelldock Isle + Emrakul Basic Piles--------
[====================================]
--The "fast" Shelldock pile--
In hand: (U)*, DR, DD
In Play: (B)
--> DR, DD -
Shelldock Isle
Emrakul
Duress or CoV or Wipe Away or (U)
DR or Duress or CoV or WA
DD
-->pass turn, draw SI, play SI and hide Emrakul, pass turn, draw duress, play duress, play (U), tap and activate SI to play Emrakul, take an extra turn, if you need to you can play doomsday for extra turns to swing
*note: if you dont have access (U) pre DD, you can stack (U) in place of duress in the pile
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
--Cantrip/ SDT basic Shelldock pile--
--Land Drop Available--
In hand: (U)*, DR, DD, GP(or any cantrip and (U), or SDT in play)
In play: (B), SDT( or a Cantrip in hand with a way to play it)
--> DR, DD -
SI
Emrakul
Duress or CoV or WA or (U)
DR
DD
--> Cantrip, or draw with SDT, play shelldock hiding Emrakul, pass turn, play (U), play duress, activate Shelldock to play Emrakul.
*note: if you dont have access (U) pre DD, you can stack (U) in place of duress in the pile.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Like i said im rather new to DDFT, so some of those piles may not be the most efficient. You need to take each pile with a grain of salt because of the innumerable variables in each game. and my lack of experience.
If there's anyone who knows the deck better than me, and sees some ways i could do things better, please let me know! I feel pretty determined to play this deck for the long haul
Also, im having a rough time with pass the turn piles than can reach lethal storm. I cant seem to figure out double doomsday piles. Ive also read Time Spiral can be used for pass the turn piles, but is it worth while without chant effects?
Have you applied for Storm Boards?
Why would you play Inquisition of Kozilek?
Do you have the cards to splash green?
Why aren't you playing Time Spiral? You Time Spiral against decks without counters, so it's worth it even with no Chants. I normally Time Spiral as the Hail Mary against Discard decks like Jund or BW decks--even if they do have counters, you do draw discard so it's worth a shot--I'd say that Time Spiral is easily better than some of your other sideboard slots now.
I play inquisition because i don't have thoughtseize, and because i don't have access to the cards to play green either. If i did, i would probably run some number of abrupt decay and swarm in the board.
And im not playing time spiral because i don't know how to make that thing work.
If you could run me though a basic time spiral pile that would great.
a time spiral pile would look something like this when i managed to pull it off.~
IU,LED,LED,BW,BW. my field had a underground sea and a volcanic island sitting in play.
play 2 LED from my hand (2 storm) dark rit, doomsday(4storm), gitaxian probe(5storm) cracking the leds for UUU RRR, grabbing IU, playit (6storm) grab LED,LED, BW. play both LEDS (8storm) cast burning wish(9storm) with the red mana. breaking the LEDS for UUUUUU, and you still have UR left from the last LEDS.
Grabbing timespiral from the sideboard. cast it (10 storm.) so get rid of the dark rit, the burning wish. say you draw into LED LED LED LED, gprobe, BW, and doomsday. just cast the LED's (14 storm), gitaxian probe(15) play burning wish (16) with your still floating UR and break the LEDS for straight up BBB BBB BBB BBB. grab and cast tendrils (17 storm.) ftw.
probably not the best example but it worked for me loll~
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
Thoughtseize isn't a common card for this deck in the first place, so it seems like a weak justification for playing Inquisition.
Without Green, I'd probably play a Wipe Away and some Echoing Truths.
I've gone over why I think the second Ideas Unbound in the sideboard is weaker than playing an Infernal Contract, too.
Concerning Time Spiral...I think you should learn how the card works instead of immediately replacing it. At the least, you'd be more likely to learn on your own by having it in your 75 to be aware of situations when it would work for you. That's merely my opinion, though. I see that you're on the storm boards, and there are some in depth threads on using Time Spiral. It's really that good, you're doing a disservice to yourself by not including it.
As far as time spiral goes, it is in no way "replaced"
this is the list i have been testing most recently when i play other people, but i still frequently goldfish with time spiral in the board. I havent been able to find anywhere that goes in depth on time spiral piles(i know the info is out there, but spilt across 3 forums on multiple threads, its very hard to find.)
and im not trying to punt games against real people, so i don't feel confidant enough yet to put it in the board.
you might be right though, just having it there during games might help me see the line when it opens up.
infernal contract may very well be better than ideas unbound. i don't have a counter argument there. I guess i have alot more reading and alot more goldfishing/playtesting to do.
Can anyone help out with pass the turn-double doomsday piles?
From what i read, its either time spiral, or double DD that lets you reach lethal storm in pass the turn piles.
Im constantly reading through back pages on the stormboards, but there is ALOT to go through, and much of it is outdated, or using meditate/IGG,Tendrils main
*Edit- just found the "pass the turn strategy" thread on storm boards.. don't know how i missed that so many times!
I agree that the info is a little bit hard to find, but it's certainly there and using the search function helps. I'd direct you to the information myself if I weren't out on business at the moment.
There's a discussion on the Storm Boarda about Ideas Unbound versus Infernal Contract in the sideboard. I think moxnix on this thread is the only person who plays the sideboard Ideas Unbound, and every other list plays Contract instead--there is an actual upside to sideboarded Ideas, but I've never felt like it was necessary. In the end though, what you do is up to you, and if you're just learning the deck now, trying to learn Contract piles might get to be too much.
the decks i have trouble with are most of the tempo builds that play 8 or more counters main and can side in even more, the UW control decks game 1 isn't bad(if they aren't running CB, or they just dont get it online) but they usually have flusterstorms, spell pierces, etc coming in game 2, same with most of the stoneblade decks. Alot of these deck pack tons of extra disruption in the board.
i managed to find the info on double doomsday and timespiral piles. they're surprisingly easy once they're explained decently.
I can say, that while i haven't played this at a local event yet, we have at least 3 Maverick, DnT, and Deadguy running around, some stone blade variants, and then tons of combo. My odd sideboard might be a reflection of that, as well as my inexperience with the deck.
Infernal Contract blanking REB/ Pyroblast is almost a good enough reason all by itself to play it. i suppose at some point ill look more into it. One step at a time though.
Karakas
Shelldock Isle
Tropical Island
Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
Cruel Bargain
Doomsday
Massacre
2 Tendrils of Agony
Empty the Warrens
Time Spiral
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Tempo can be hard because it's the disruption and a clock together that beat you, but control decks are too slow to not get beaten by all your discard (even at 7; Burning Wish is actually pieces 8-11 through the sideboard Therapy). Soft counters out of those decks are easy to play around.
Your meta makes your sideboard make sense. Just take care not to warp your gameplay so much that you couldn't bring the deck to an open meta and understand what to do.
Also, why massacre? Not scared of Teeg?
I don't plan on playing this in an open any time soon, but thanks for the heads up. The list i put up certainly isn't set in stone. I still feel incredibly new to the archetype and i still have alot to learn.
Piloting this deck is probably the most fun I've had playing Magic. It certainly takes alot of effort to learn, but it feels incredibly rewarding, even in the early stages like im at.
there's possibilities for double tendril piles i think~
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
--Double Doomsday pile--
(U)(U)(1) + LED available post Doomsday
-->DD -
IU
SDT
DD
LED
BW
-->pass the turn, LED(1),IU(2)resp crack LED for BBB, LED(3), SDT(4), DD(5)resp crack LED for UUU -
IU
LED
LED
BW
( )
-->draw with SDT, IU(6), LED(7), LED(7), SDT(8), crack LEDs for BBB RRR, draw with top, BW(9), TOA
-----------------------------------------------------------------
--Time Spiral pile--
In Hand: DR, DD, LED, (*)
In Play: Usea, (U)*with extra card in hand - or Petal/ Fetchland
--> DR, DD
IU
LED
LED
BW
BW
-->pass turn, LED(1), IU(2)resp crack LED for RRR, LED(3), LED(4), BW(5)resp crack LEDs for UUU UUU, TSP(6), draw and untap, LED(7),LED(8),LED(9), BW(10)resp crack LEDs for BBB BBB, TOA
I use the second Tendrils against decks where I would actually need to cast a mini-Tendrils (Burn), against the decks that you would expect to side in Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, and I side it in against Gaddock Teeg decks because it makes your "Tutor up a Chain of Vapor" pile cost less mana (see below).
Teeg is a joke against this deck. The way you win the game includes casting a 3 mana spell that tutors up the answers in your deck to a Teeg. Teeg and Thalia together could be rough, but Maverick has been on the decline for a while so it hasn't come up. Virtue's Ruin is fine, but it can be slow against a Thalia, and Massacre has applications against non-white creatures in decks that play white (for example, killing Vendillion Cliques and Snapcaster Mages out of Stoneblade). In a heavier Thalia/Teeg Metagame, I'd be playing extra copies of Karakas before anything else, because most players opt for the legendary hatebears over something like Ethersworn Canonist, and Thalia decks are often Mother of Runes decks as well. I think Dread of Night is only good when people are also playing Aven Mindcensor.
I think what Dread of Night does for me is stop Thalia, but also Mother of Runes. Because like you said, Teeg is easy to play around. So as long as Mom isn't out, i can make a simple chain pile to beat a Teeg.
I agree Virtue's Ruin can be slow, but it can wipe out a a field full of hatebears, where massacre sometimes cant. What do you do against Thalia+Teeg? or even worse Thalia+Teeg+Mom or Another bear(Sounds ridiculous, but i have played games where my opponent goes; T1 Mom, T2 Thalia, T3 Teeg). I agree that massacre being able to kill a slew of other guys is a huge factor though. And in a larger meta, i can see it being almost strictly better(unless maverick makes a comeback).
I don't have access to Karakas unfortunately, so for now that option isn't possible.
What do I do against Thalia and Teeg? To be honest, I usually dodge it entirely. This deck is very customizable, and Maverick hasn't been around for a while so recent builds are moving away from caring about those two cards together. For real though, Cabal Therapy to name hatebear cards before they come down hasn't been bad at all, and trying to find Chain of Vapor for one hatebear or the other is basically my only solution, with Karakas and Abrupt Decay coming out of the sideboard for Games 2 and 3. Mother of Runes into Thalia and Teeg is the nightmare scenario, but I'm willing to concede that happening to me if it occurs, because it's not particularly likely these days.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Now then...God bless you for being able to play MTGO. The way I learned how to play the deck was to watch clips of a player online, just like you're doing now. I felt kind of bad about not being able to refer people to what I used to learn (because the clips are so outdated), and I had the deck on MTGO for a little while, but I hate MTGO's interface so much that I couldn't play it.
I think it would help if you would speak a little more slowly--I know I caught everything you were doing because I know what you're doing already. I don't know that the audience you are directing this toward will be able to catch everything. If possible, you should try playing games in real time and narrating your thoughts that way, because maneuvering yourself to a position where you can even cast a Doomsday is the hard part, I'd say.
Also, I see that you're still playing IGG and Ideas Unbound in the board. How are they working out for you? You can tell I'm still not on board with them, but in the MTGO metagame I feel like there are Red Blasts basically everywhere so I'm wondering if you use the sideboarded Ideas Unbound enough to make it better than being able to dodge getting blasted, and so many people have no idea how Doomsday works that enough of them really just bring graveyard hate in to the point that I'm wondering if the times you have wanted to use IGG are enough to outweigh having no graveyard cards in your deck to make the hate truly dead.
All in all though, I like what you're doing and I think you should keep it up.
Closing this guy up.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.