This is the list I'm running currently I went 4-0 the first time I played it. I played in a small pod last night I didn't drop a game until finals then punted 2 games piling wrong game 2 after a T2 kill game 1 . Game 3 I have T2 kill again and don't fetch volcanic because I'm stupid attempt to go off realize I don't have any R for the burning wish in hand try to do a pass the turn pile and still lose to his untap + pyro last on brainstorm sad day you live you learn.
Edit; I will post some helpful information on playing the deck when I have time Im not experienced enough to write a primer yet but would love to eventually make a HUGE post on how to play the deck. For those who don't know in general you cast doomsday move through a pile of LED and cantrips using ideas inbound meditate or infernal contract to get the ball rolling then storm them out with tendrils.
I would highly suggest reading about the deck on mtgthesource.com and joining the Storm Boards, which is where the real Doomsday pros hang out. (http://teamstormboards.proboards.com/)
Yea I did that ;). I played this deck for like 6 hours straight today at my lgs and i messed up 0 piles ;). Just needed to take my time it's getting really easy now and the abrupt decays have been awesome. T2 and T3 kills on average love piloting this.
I play a build that is very similar to yours (-1 Duress, +1 Lotus Petal, minor land base alterations).
Since our lists are so similar, you may appreciate an altered list of the storm conditions that I made for myself over February. I took the classic Excel document that has the full list and eliminated combo options that do not apply to this main deck configuration.
So far I have not used pact. I did not use etw. IU in
SB has won me mutiple games by letting burning wish be my cantrip on led non cantrip hands as well as just increasing what I can do for my mana. So far I have used it to won more than IC. IGGY board is not very good fur boarding in just another wish target I was against lands which he a free win game 1. But he played a zuran orb 5 lands but I have mutiple LED spin just use a double burning wish pile and that's all she wrote. I still
Not happy with the SB completely I'm trying lots of stuff . Also thanks for the updated doc!
I posted a few critiques of your choices on the Storm Boards.
To sum them up here:
-Pact of Negation is bad because counters + LED is a nonbo
-Sideboard Ideas Unbound seems a bit like a crutch because it shouldn't be that hard to build storm
-Time Spiral is infinitely better than IGG in your sideboard.
As always thank you for your time you have helped me alot ;). I'll go into more detail both here and in storm board in my lunch break or after work but I'll say this for now the IGGY and IU SB is a package. It allows for double burning wish piles if I draw IU or wish it in double wish / DD wish hands.
Standard IGGY pile is
Led
Led
Probe
Wish
Wish
The IGGY adds like 4 storm for smaller hand with mulligans or just to add alot of storm for decks that gain life. I find myself needing this far mor than I felt a needed tendrils 2 or empty the warrens. Pact is indeed bad was wort a rat run and like you said LED makes it bad. I think I want some number of IOK in my MD or SB but I'll get into that reasoning later. I will say I Actualy LIKE drawing IU with IGGY in board.
The standard Time Spiral Pile is IU, LED, LED, Wish, Wish, and it costs 1RUU post-Doomsday. It works as a pass-the-turn pile, too. The difference here is that Time Spiral actually can do something other than go into your piles, which makes it a more versatile choice than Ill-Gotten Gains. I still don't understand what sorts of situations you're encountering that make having a spell that does nothing other than "Add 4 Storm" appealing, especially when this deck is so good at generating Storm with Doomsday being an automatic eight spells anytime you cast it.
It's also funny that you mention it, because Time Spiral and Empty the Warrens together have given me the ability to kill opponents from over 70 life before.
It doesn't look like you removed Empty the Warrens, but given your comment on it I will say I wouldn't remove it from my sideboard because I feel that it is part of the toolbox of cards that gives you a chance to win even in bad spots--for instance, the "Over 70 life" scenario I'm talking about was winnable through Doomsday-Time Spiral-Doomsday into 40+ Goblins attacking twice. Goblins also beat something like a Double Leyline of Sanctity hand without having to find Chain of Vapor before you go off.
I'm also curious about why you want Inquisition of Kozilek. I'm sure you're already expecting the "It doesn't find Force of Will, what good is it?" question, though.
Well Here is the thing I have empty and spiral no ones ever got to 70 life on me yet but I have used spiral one time in a casual game when someone was at 40 but I used tendrils and had a stupid amount of mama by the time I found DD but even then I had to think much longer than normal to figure out the entire sequence "more than 3 minutes for sure maybe even 7-8 :/). Now alot of decks I have played get to 25-32ish life pretty damn fast or threaten too. Batterskull decks that disrupt me ( I actualy SB in spiral against these decks if they use hymn or lots of thourseize type effects) . The other strange thing about my meta is mutiple guys play "lands" now this is good for me becuase I win game 1 against these guys like 80% +. Now post board they both bring in like 10+ cards to try and stax / zuran orb me while they ghost quarter my basics and waste my non basics it's hard to get 1-2 lands down abrupt decay can save me but thus helps. Having the Abilty to wish out IU and have a 28 damage UU pile is incredably attractive to me. Games 2-3 I have to board in abrupt decays hope they don't go turn 1 diamond land chalice for 1. I have to deal with trinsphere and surgicals and leylines of sanctity lets just say games 2-3 are not the cakewalk game 1 is. now in addition to having huge game 2-3 win% boost against these decks and a fairly decent win % increase vs batterskull now drawing IU is not a bad thing it's actualy amazingly good. I was thinking about running 1 maybe even 2 IOK becuase no one is maindecking force of will and I play against alot of ddcks that drawing cabal therapy in opener game 1 is not a play I want to make. Unlike ad naususm I can't toss away my probe whenever I see a therapy sometimes you can sometimes you don't want to, I'm sure you know how that goes. the only reason I have not is doesn't hit fireblast is very relivant for me. I think pact of negation becomes massacre as even the goblin decks splash white to side Thalia. I'm
Glad you mention empty the warrens and sanctity I actualy conceded a game I now relize I could have won to that situation. In the end I don't think being able to side in shell dock emerakul or add some more duress effects is worth what the IU IGGY package adds without ever siding it in. You bring up some good points though overall.
Switching back to IOK vs cabal #2/3 game . The main problem is it ends up costing me SB slots to keep the CB for when I need them. The pro is I can toss this down turn 1-2 if I only draw one effect like I would duress and get the information on Thier hand and even if I don't get a card I needed to I can slow Thier clock and know the coast is clear - top decks. This seems better game 1 but the slots are an issue ATM.
On contract. It had its uses but u don't think I would side it in just for 4 pyro lasts spellsnare is normally a 2 of and not a ton of decks even run it. Alot of the red decks that do board it in play burn cards :/ doble life down + fetches + probes + Thier early damage and trying to abrupt decay down scary post board cards like pyro static pillar are all reasons I'll just try to duress them before I go off if I can. At times I think it's better just to go all
In ASAP. Another neat trick I use is 4 card pile + doomsday that's been decent little tool. Contract is still gear to board in aginast decks with no clock but with an IU in board as my draw spell i may not even need it but I'm reluctant to cut it as it has promise and learning the draw 4 piles is goid for me as a novice if the deck. To roughly quote leejay on boards " IU is a better draw spell wish target but contract is good to SB in against pyro last REB and snares so it gets the slot". Being able to play one MD IOK over having this in my SB doesn't seem like a strong enough reason to cut it if I went to a tournement but I think would increase my overall win% in my local meta.
Do you care to elaborate a little on when you side in the emerakul package as I don't see it being a better option against much.
First off, I'll concede that you have some valid points here. I'm still a bit resistant, though.
I didn't mean to imply that it should be a regular occurance that people are going above 50 life on you or anything. My point was more along these lines: I think the appeal of DDFT is that the Doomsday/Burning Wish combo allows you to access so much of your deck/sideboard at any given time that filling your 75 with the most versatile and varied cards creates a toolbox that gives you game in most situations if you're experienced enough to recognize what to do in certain situations when they come up.
In this way, what I feel like I'm seeing is that you haven't gained the experience to see better ways to increase your storm than using Ideas Unbound and Ill-Gotten Gains, whose only use in the sideboard seems to be to increase storm. I'll concede to you that I was unaware that the Ideas Unbound in the sideboard made for cheaper requirements for Burning Wish piles...because in the time I've been following Doomsday I haven't seen a single player wish for Ideas Unbound because I haven't seen a single other player with Ideas Unbound in their sideboard, and I haven't seen anyone reflect on their games and say "I really wish I had Ideas Unbound in my sideboard because I would have won so many more games than I currently do." I suppose it isn't my place to say that it's wrong, but I would suggest trying to see if there are other ways to increase storm in your practice games (Double Doomsday Piles, Time Spiral Piles, Looping your Sensei's Divining Tops) because it seems like if nothing, you are relying a lot on the sideboard Ideas Unbound when everything I know about the deck implies that you shouldn't have to be. Also, if I may ask, how much does the pile you normally use cost? It seems like you're saying that the pile you're talking about is predicated on you having Ideas Unbound in hand, and that you're casting Burning Wish for Ideas Unbound, which seems really slow to me.
I would also say that I never side in Time Spiral because it's easier to access the card from your sideboard than it is to find it in your deck, and it's easier to cast it off of your LEDs than it is to put together 6 mana when your opponent is actively disrupting you.
That lands matchup does seem tough, I won't lie. I would seek more advice from more experienced players by starting a thread on the Storm Boards about that one. That being said, if I were in your meta, I'd probably have Emrakul and Shelldock Isle in my sideboard with a Pithing Needle and just hope for a quick Doomsday with Pithing Needle to prevent the lands player from Wastelanding Shelldock Isle (does the deck have room for more than one or two Ghost Quarters?) Maybe Trickbind or Stifle if I didn't want to gamble on which land they'd play.
If no one is maindecking Force of Will, you should be smashing your opponents with ease instead of worrying about disrupting them. I see what you're trying to get at with Inquisition of Kozilek, but I disagree with you because I don't think that Gitaxian Probe is necessary for making Cabal Therapy do what it's supposed to. You see, I feel that the function of Cabal Therapy in this deck is "Make sure your opponent has 0 copies of [Card X] in hand." Because you're playing a Storm Deck, the range of cards your opponent could be holding that are relevant to you should be narrow enough that you should know what to name with Cabal Therapy most of the time, which makes Inquisition just a worse version of Cabal Therapy to me. It is also very much worth burning that Gitaxian Probe if you're afraid of actually naming the wrong hate card. I'm with you on Fireblast, though--I joke that it's actually "Red Force of Will" against this deck. Another thing though is that Inquisition doesn't discard Mindbreak Trap, which can be relevant.
It does appear that lejay did say that about Ideas Unbound, but I've never seen him play an Ideas Unbound in his sideboard, which leads me to believe that it shouldn't be that important to be playing one. We definitely side Contract in "just for four Pyro" because it blanks your opponent's disruption against you at almost no cost to your Plan A. The main decks I sideboard Infernal Contract in against are Goblins and RUG, so I don't feel like the burn comes into play as much against the decks that want to Red Blast you (Delver only plays four Lightning Bolt, but plays enough permission that I think it's a good choice to try and naturally blank some of their spells--but I won't get into my sideboard table here). The "All Bolts" Burn deck is the exception to the rule when it comes to playing Contract.
When you side in Emrakul, you're saying one or more of these things:
"My opponent has no game against me losing half of my life and passing/double passing the turn with Shelldock Isle." ("Scrub" decks that don't play Wasteland)
"My opponent's deck plays enough oppressive hate cards that my best bet is to try to cast an early Doomsday before their hate comes online and hope they can't disrupt Shelldock Isle." (Stax Decks, Counterbalance Decks, Enchantress)
"Just having Emrakul in my deck can really mess up my opponent's plans." (High Tide, Show and Tell decks)
All in all, it seems like a lot of what you're saying is "I'm still learning" and "My choices are metagame calls." I can certainly see where you're coming from in these regards--your choices aren't completely egregious to the extent that I would say that you're making a clear mistake or anything. I do feel that your sideboard could be better constructed with more experience, though. I recall you saying that you started off with emidln's list from the SCG event, but I also recall very soon after that lejay convinced him that 2 Trop 4 Decay was less good against the decks he uses it for than 1 Trop, 3 Decay, 1 Shelldock Isle, 1 Emrakul.
I agree with you on most points however the "metagame" thing is driving my decisions to some point but i always learn something form you :).
Wishing for IU has been quite good in my experience but its even better that just drawing the card is now good and not bad. Rough quote you " i dont like IU in opener i got over it" . If you do wish for it its in hands with wish and DD but no cantrip. Also IF you grabbed CB with a turn 2 wish not only is the BBB cost harder since double ritual wins anyway and even off 1 ritual if that the only card you have its 18 damage not 20 at that point.
The extra tropical is needed against lands for the moment sometimes you need to cast more than 1 abrupt decay. The deck plays max loams some crucible max explorations and tolaria west tutors the whole deck including chalice EE ORB etc. Honestly i normally win game 1 not even close. Lose game 2 with them on the play getting stax down fast duress openers can really help here. SO game 3 i have to be able to win on turn 3 Since my sideboard gives me an advantage i can Guarantee a T3 kill off a hand like Wish DD DR lands. i don't need anything else but odds are you get an LED or a BS or a petal or a CT w/e you get it makes the hands that would be ok amazing. I think in the end you ARE correct about IOK i don't need it. But as far as my SB goes here is what im weighing right now. upping my win % even if slightly in every MU by adding a very relevant wish target and a enabler card to make IU hands do fast overkill piles with lower card and mana requirements and making a bad draw a nuts draw making for better mulligans more keeps at 7 etc. Now in what you said you board it in against open handing it vs show and tell ok sounds fine. High Tide "Meh" The only guy playing Tide i know does play MD force and hes good enough to combo T5 slinging counters with leylines out and pithing needle on his candles doesn't even phase him rough quote him " I love a Challenge"
The other decks plenty have wastelands and i have abrupt decays and for what to accelerate your win condition if you open DD and ritual maybe by a turn in a few matchups and in most of them you don't want to draw EM.
I crush scrub deck if i interpreted that correctly. So far i have had really good results with this deck but i haven't taken it to anything major yet. When dragons maze comes out im going to some SCG thing at a hotel nearby to play side events legacy 15$ 8 man for boxes i want to bring this deck :).
As always i appreciate your input Do you know what thread he convinced him in or was it a private conversation i would love to read the conversation. Whenever i try to tweak his list it ends up being me not understanding a card choice in most cases but at this point i think it might just be current meta and my style of mulliganing / digging with the deck that affects the decision to run IGGY and IU SB to slightly improve the base consistency of my deck and my wish package. Keep in mind Brainstorm BW hands are also nasty with IU in board for +1 Storm to go to lethal for 1UR maybe not important there but. BW probe hands are now lethal for 1R without even using IGGY or casting the DR.
either way Im still enjoying the deck and the format which im both relatively new too and i get better with it every day still. I am still learning and alot of it isnt even the deck its the format you cant blind call SB hate cards with a Ct if you odnt know what every deck is playing in its SB XD.
I play a build that is very similar to yours (-1 Duress, +1 Lotus Petal, minor land base alterations).
Since our lists are so similar, you may appreciate an altered list of the storm conditions that I made for myself over February. I took the classic Excel document that has the full list and eliminated combo options that do not apply to this main deck configuration.
It is pretty self-explanatory. However, if you would like to discuss this further, let me know.
I'm just thinking about eventually putting this deck together (I have just about everything but a couple of the fetchlands and the SDT's and Doomsdays), and I was having some trouble with playing out the first pile on that Spreadsheet:
If I figured it out correctly, I have the pile playing out as (from 0 cards in hand, Doomsday resolved and SDT on board)
Top on Top, draw IU
IU floating 2U (2 storm)
LED (3 storm)
Top, floating 1U (4)
Top on Top, respond with CoV targeting Top, floating 1 (5)
LED #2 (6)
Recast Top (7)
Top on Top, respond by cracking LEDx2 for BBBRRR
BW (8)
ToA (9)
But I'm not seeing how to get that pile to Storm 10.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former Level 2 Judge (Retired / Renounced)
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
DD)
use SDT to grab IU
2) Cast IU drawing LED/TOP/CoV
3) cast LED
4) cast top
- Put top trigger on the stack
5) cast CoV targetting LED,
sac a land and target Top
6) Replay LED
7) replay top
8) play drawn LED
9) BW
10) ToA
Due to the Wish board, any actual sideboard cards have to function with increased marginal utility over the deck's refined engine. It's very easy to have poor sideboard composition because the Wish board quickly uses any sideboard space left over. I agree that Ill-Gotten Gains is unnecessary for storm count because it's marginal utility is low and in many cases an alternative combo option is still available. Ideas Unbound is less obvious I think because it's just one of many ways to turn Burning Wish into a win on the following turn, as IU in-hand conditions become available.
Just to keep relevant with card choices, here is the version I am currently playing. I would describe my list as relatively stock, with the extra Burning Wish as an adjustment to playing against heavy discard strategies.
Yea your build is very similar. TS is worse than duress for me due to a lot of burn or fast tempo. Why did you opt for the petal
Over protection card #7 MD? I asked some questions about this on the storm boards nam pretty much said you run 7 because the decks been heavily tested and going up to 8 or down to 6 would require justification. The preordain in the SB seems odd why did you choose to put it Thier? I actualy tested this ddck on full preordains and petals it seemed like the petals were better is this card a wish target?
On badlands I have read quite a bit on it but I don't see why it's important to have a r/b source could you give me an example of when it would be better than my land base as I have read about using a badlands but it's always vague.
I See you also favor the Emmy package what MU do you find it increases your win % and by how much? Either way looks solid thus deck has such a strong core I find it hard to SB many differnt cards out of the deck I need more testing !
50 damage seems easy with that much mana let's see and tips our so time spiral pile. 5 storm in hand with 10 floating mama after DD Jesus well storm9 moving to first BW storm 10 and were up to 13 mana be into spiral is a net loss of 5 so 8 but you can cast the DR's putting you at 12 do you can use 6 grab and cast tendrils recast DD with 3 of the 6 left cracking LED again for over kill mama cast tendrils again that's defintly more than 50.
So
Cast DR's LEDS and DD storm 5 floating 10 flop toP cast IU floating 8
Cast led led top floating 7 storm 9 crack led flop top 13 mana cast wish 11 mana storm 10 cast spiral untap 3 storm 12 go to 8 mana
Cast DR's and LEDs again storm 16 12 mana
Use BW and tendrils hit for 36 damage then cast DD cracking led and killing them. That one was easy enough
Edit : only crack on led to the frist DD too not mill out to spiral I guess that's important
Here's the list I've been playing with. A little more mainstream nothing really varies. But for sake of discussion I'll give some differences.
The landbase: I still run silences, so i need white. Otherwise, its important to have proper fetches and basics. If you are in UBR i think i might play a basic mountain because i could (replace plains) and run Deltas + Tarns and be able to fetch all 3 basics. Having 3 basics is pivotal against wasteland especially 1 for each color. Although Red being least significant.
Protection suite: 4 silence, 2 duress 1 cabal therapy + therapy in the board
Duress over therapy, in general I'm looking at grabbing FoW/Counters, however against unknown opponent can grab other problem cards including SNT/etc. Doesn't have the lifeloss of Thoughtsezie (which i have tried, and sometimes problematic). Therapy + duress gives us more information.
Silences: These have been invaluable for protection versus multiple counters, chantwalking maverick/junk. Stronger in storm mirrors/high tide, and i find myself against burn frequently enough as many people are on a budget and this really saves us post DD. I do however like the discard for the information it gives and am liking the 3-4 split silence/discard. Discussion on the boards also warrants relative information on this split, some of it is preference.
Mainboard karakas: This has won me more games than CoV. Against SNT/Thalia/etc. Its worth the spot even if you aren't playing white IMO.
SB Karakas: I like 2-3 karakas, in the matchups we want them, finding it is important. Others will say they hate having 2 for the times they draw both. Then again, many times your opponent will have 1 for yours, and the second is needed as well. Also a preference thing.
DD/TSP/IC/ToA/Therapy/ETW/Massacre: standard slots
ToA #2: I like it as i find myself against surgical enough that i like having a back up plan. Its been relevant.
SI/Emrakul: This wins many games for me. Against countertop decks or budget lists. I've won many games from turn 1 DR-> DD pass. SI -> Emrakul. Its hard to deal with. Also bring it in against SNT to give us the option to get into to play thanks to them or kill theirs as well. This + karakas + switching to discard instead of 7 silences has improved this MU. Although still not entirely favorable.
Cabal in the board. Its more relevant games 2-3 and as a wish target as we generally know what we need to get rid of at this point. Not limited like duress.
Yea I'm still at work I didn't part out but it diesnt matter you have 2 seas so you can just cast 1 rit after doomsday and get double tendrils. How are you at 6 after spiral you untap 3 I see 8
An increase in the amount of BG Deathrite Shaman decks has reduced the amount of tempo decks in this area (including me, I usually play Team America). This has allowed me to run Thoughtseize over Duress without any real negative effects. Rather than discarding the opponent's discard, it seems better to include more ways to draw into a way to win the game through it. Burning Wish has good utility anyway so it keeps marginal value against a blind field without the discard, so that's where the -1 discard and +1 Burning Wish came from. I've always played 3 Lotus Petal to enable earlier wins with Dark Ritual or to increase earlier interaction with Ponder/discard.
The sideboard Preordain allows me to turn an extra Wish into a way to access the top of a DD pile, but it also turns an extra Wish into a way to see more cards for slow hands and allows me to make my deck more linear for sideboard games if I need to. I tried it on a whim and I've been quite happy with it.
For me at least, the Badlands is slightly more necessary because I play the 4th Burning Wish. I also had 2 Bloodstained Mire prior to adding green to the sideboard. In general, storm decks only really lose to hand disruption, the stack, and troublesome permanents. Adding discard for the stack interactions is standardized, and finding ways to play though hand disruption can vary across decks. Abrupt Decay is an excellent compliment to Chain of Vapor and Karakas for removing troublesome permanents. I also actually had 4 Force of Will to board in with the Shelldock Isle package. It was fun while it lasted.
I haven't seen or played against Chalice of the Void. If I do, I may make some alterations to account for it better, although I'm not sure what those changes would be.
Ah this makes sense instill
Play against alot of tempo and burn so I favour duress over seize
I still don't quite understand badlands as you cut bloodstained why is it important to have B and R on same source can you give me an example I'm still confused. IU seems better in SB than preordain but it doesn't seem useless. I want to try Emmy I guess I don't think I own shell dock isle but lgs should have one. I don't think I want to cut any decays they are way to important post board in my meta.
Also I did the puzzle a little harder on 1 DR I messed up
The first time got like 44 or 42 damage realized it was either double wish DD pile for first pile or triple wish I try DD first relize I can't land top before spiral and still have the BBB for DD then go back and try the triple wish pile success it defintly took me more than 3 minutes however I naturally did the IU led led wish wish pile for like 44 damage.
On 3 petal 6 protection vs 2 petal 7 protection I honestly like the idea of a petal over a therapy in my game 1 but I don't like how it munches a sideboard slot :/.
I suppose the main reason is to be able to use Burning Wish and then Doomsday on the following turn.
There may be a way to further optimize the deck space that I'm unaware of. So far, I am only playing what has worked for me. By all means, if we can arrive at something better we should at least try.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
2 islands
1 swamp
2 volcanic island
3 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
1 scalding tarn
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxin Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Lotus petal
1 Rain of Filth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ideas Unbound
3 Doomsday
1 Doomsday
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Infernal contract
1 Time spiral
1 Cabal Therapy
1 ill-gotten gains
2 tropical island
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 empty the warrens
4 abrupt decay
1 Massacre
This is the list I'm running currently I went 4-0 the first time I played it. I played in a small pod last night I didn't drop a game until finals then punted 2 games piling wrong game 2 after a T2 kill game 1 . Game 3 I have T2 kill again and don't fetch volcanic because I'm stupid attempt to go off realize I don't have any R for the burning wish in hand try to do a pass the turn pile and still lose to his untap + pyro last on brainstorm sad day you live you learn.
Edit; I will post some helpful information on playing the deck when I have time Im not experienced enough to write a primer yet but would love to eventually make a HUGE post on how to play the deck. For those who don't know in general you cast doomsday move through a pile of LED and cantrips using ideas inbound meditate or infernal contract to get the ball rolling then storm them out with tendrils.
Deck Stats http://deck.tk/1uG96KUx
Just Main Deck if you want to use starting hands http://deck.tk/6qQG6fwF
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Since our lists are so similar, you may appreciate an altered list of the storm conditions that I made for myself over February. I took the classic Excel document that has the full list and eliminated combo options that do not apply to this main deck configuration.
http://i.imgur.com/ZkXbzIz.png
It is pretty self-explanatory. However, if you would like to discuss this further, let me know.
SB has won me mutiple games by letting burning wish be my cantrip on led non cantrip hands as well as just increasing what I can do for my mana. So far I have used it to won more than IC. IGGY board is not very good fur boarding in just another wish target I was against lands which he a free win game 1. But he played a zuran orb 5 lands but I have mutiple LED spin just use a double burning wish pile and that's all she wrote. I still
Not happy with the SB completely I'm trying lots of stuff . Also thanks for the updated doc!
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
To sum them up here:
-Pact of Negation is bad because counters + LED is a nonbo
-Sideboard Ideas Unbound seems a bit like a crutch because it shouldn't be that hard to build storm
-Time Spiral is infinitely better than IGG in your sideboard.
Standard IGGY pile is
Led
Led
Probe
Wish
Wish
The IGGY adds like 4 storm for smaller hand with mulligans or just to add alot of storm for decks that gain life. I find myself needing this far mor than I felt a needed tendrils 2 or empty the warrens. Pact is indeed bad was wort a rat run and like you said LED makes it bad. I think I want some number of IOK in my MD or SB but I'll get into that reasoning later. I will say I Actualy LIKE drawing IU with IGGY in board.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
It's also funny that you mention it, because Time Spiral and Empty the Warrens together have given me the ability to kill opponents from over 70 life before.
It doesn't look like you removed Empty the Warrens, but given your comment on it I will say I wouldn't remove it from my sideboard because I feel that it is part of the toolbox of cards that gives you a chance to win even in bad spots--for instance, the "Over 70 life" scenario I'm talking about was winnable through Doomsday-Time Spiral-Doomsday into 40+ Goblins attacking twice. Goblins also beat something like a Double Leyline of Sanctity hand without having to find Chain of Vapor before you go off.
I'm also curious about why you want Inquisition of Kozilek. I'm sure you're already expecting the "It doesn't find Force of Will, what good is it?" question, though.
Glad you mention empty the warrens and sanctity I actualy conceded a game I now relize I could have won to that situation. In the end I don't think being able to side in shell dock emerakul or add some more duress effects is worth what the IU IGGY package adds without ever siding it in. You bring up some good points though overall.
Switching back to IOK vs cabal #2/3 game . The main problem is it ends up costing me SB slots to keep the CB for when I need them. The pro is I can toss this down turn 1-2 if I only draw one effect like I would duress and get the information on Thier hand and even if I don't get a card I needed to I can slow Thier clock and know the coast is clear - top decks. This seems better game 1 but the slots are an issue ATM.
On contract. It had its uses but u don't think I would side it in just for 4 pyro lasts spellsnare is normally a 2 of and not a ton of decks even run it. Alot of the red decks that do board it in play burn cards :/ doble life down + fetches + probes + Thier early damage and trying to abrupt decay down scary post board cards like pyro static pillar are all reasons I'll just try to duress them before I go off if I can. At times I think it's better just to go all
In ASAP. Another neat trick I use is 4 card pile + doomsday that's been decent little tool. Contract is still gear to board in aginast decks with no clock but with an IU in board as my draw spell i may not even need it but I'm reluctant to cut it as it has promise and learning the draw 4 piles is goid for me as a novice if the deck. To roughly quote leejay on boards " IU is a better draw spell wish target but contract is good to SB in against pyro last REB and snares so it gets the slot". Being able to play one MD IOK over having this in my SB doesn't seem like a strong enough reason to cut it if I went to a tournement but I think would increase my overall win% in my local meta.
Do you care to elaborate a little on when you side in the emerakul package as I don't see it being a better option against much.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I didn't mean to imply that it should be a regular occurance that people are going above 50 life on you or anything. My point was more along these lines: I think the appeal of DDFT is that the Doomsday/Burning Wish combo allows you to access so much of your deck/sideboard at any given time that filling your 75 with the most versatile and varied cards creates a toolbox that gives you game in most situations if you're experienced enough to recognize what to do in certain situations when they come up.
In this way, what I feel like I'm seeing is that you haven't gained the experience to see better ways to increase your storm than using Ideas Unbound and Ill-Gotten Gains, whose only use in the sideboard seems to be to increase storm. I'll concede to you that I was unaware that the Ideas Unbound in the sideboard made for cheaper requirements for Burning Wish piles...because in the time I've been following Doomsday I haven't seen a single player wish for Ideas Unbound because I haven't seen a single other player with Ideas Unbound in their sideboard, and I haven't seen anyone reflect on their games and say "I really wish I had Ideas Unbound in my sideboard because I would have won so many more games than I currently do." I suppose it isn't my place to say that it's wrong, but I would suggest trying to see if there are other ways to increase storm in your practice games (Double Doomsday Piles, Time Spiral Piles, Looping your Sensei's Divining Tops) because it seems like if nothing, you are relying a lot on the sideboard Ideas Unbound when everything I know about the deck implies that you shouldn't have to be. Also, if I may ask, how much does the pile you normally use cost? It seems like you're saying that the pile you're talking about is predicated on you having Ideas Unbound in hand, and that you're casting Burning Wish for Ideas Unbound, which seems really slow to me.
I would also say that I never side in Time Spiral because it's easier to access the card from your sideboard than it is to find it in your deck, and it's easier to cast it off of your LEDs than it is to put together 6 mana when your opponent is actively disrupting you.
That lands matchup does seem tough, I won't lie. I would seek more advice from more experienced players by starting a thread on the Storm Boards about that one. That being said, if I were in your meta, I'd probably have Emrakul and Shelldock Isle in my sideboard with a Pithing Needle and just hope for a quick Doomsday with Pithing Needle to prevent the lands player from Wastelanding Shelldock Isle (does the deck have room for more than one or two Ghost Quarters?) Maybe Trickbind or Stifle if I didn't want to gamble on which land they'd play.
If no one is maindecking Force of Will, you should be smashing your opponents with ease instead of worrying about disrupting them. I see what you're trying to get at with Inquisition of Kozilek, but I disagree with you because I don't think that Gitaxian Probe is necessary for making Cabal Therapy do what it's supposed to. You see, I feel that the function of Cabal Therapy in this deck is "Make sure your opponent has 0 copies of [Card X] in hand." Because you're playing a Storm Deck, the range of cards your opponent could be holding that are relevant to you should be narrow enough that you should know what to name with Cabal Therapy most of the time, which makes Inquisition just a worse version of Cabal Therapy to me. It is also very much worth burning that Gitaxian Probe if you're afraid of actually naming the wrong hate card. I'm with you on Fireblast, though--I joke that it's actually "Red Force of Will" against this deck. Another thing though is that Inquisition doesn't discard Mindbreak Trap, which can be relevant.
It does appear that lejay did say that about Ideas Unbound, but I've never seen him play an Ideas Unbound in his sideboard, which leads me to believe that it shouldn't be that important to be playing one. We definitely side Contract in "just for four Pyro" because it blanks your opponent's disruption against you at almost no cost to your Plan A. The main decks I sideboard Infernal Contract in against are Goblins and RUG, so I don't feel like the burn comes into play as much against the decks that want to Red Blast you (Delver only plays four Lightning Bolt, but plays enough permission that I think it's a good choice to try and naturally blank some of their spells--but I won't get into my sideboard table here). The "All Bolts" Burn deck is the exception to the rule when it comes to playing Contract.
When you side in Emrakul, you're saying one or more of these things:
"My opponent has no game against me losing half of my life and passing/double passing the turn with Shelldock Isle." ("Scrub" decks that don't play Wasteland)
"My opponent's deck plays enough oppressive hate cards that my best bet is to try to cast an early Doomsday before their hate comes online and hope they can't disrupt Shelldock Isle." (Stax Decks, Counterbalance Decks, Enchantress)
"Just having Emrakul in my deck can really mess up my opponent's plans." (High Tide, Show and Tell decks)
All in all, it seems like a lot of what you're saying is "I'm still learning" and "My choices are metagame calls." I can certainly see where you're coming from in these regards--your choices aren't completely egregious to the extent that I would say that you're making a clear mistake or anything. I do feel that your sideboard could be better constructed with more experience, though. I recall you saying that you started off with emidln's list from the SCG event, but I also recall very soon after that lejay convinced him that 2 Trop 4 Decay was less good against the decks he uses it for than 1 Trop, 3 Decay, 1 Shelldock Isle, 1 Emrakul.
I agree with you on most points however the "metagame" thing is driving my decisions to some point but i always learn something form you :).
Wishing for IU has been quite good in my experience but its even better that just drawing the card is now good and not bad. Rough quote you " i dont like IU in opener i got over it" . If you do wish for it its in hands with wish and DD but no cantrip. Also IF you grabbed CB with a turn 2 wish not only is the BBB cost harder since double ritual wins anyway and even off 1 ritual if that the only card you have its 18 damage not 20 at that point.
The extra tropical is needed against lands for the moment sometimes you need to cast more than 1 abrupt decay. The deck plays max loams some crucible max explorations and tolaria west tutors the whole deck including chalice EE ORB etc. Honestly i normally win game 1 not even close. Lose game 2 with them on the play getting stax down fast duress openers can really help here. SO game 3 i have to be able to win on turn 3 Since my sideboard gives me an advantage i can Guarantee a T3 kill off a hand like Wish DD DR lands. i don't need anything else but odds are you get an LED or a BS or a petal or a CT w/e you get it makes the hands that would be ok amazing. I think in the end you ARE correct about IOK i don't need it. But as far as my SB goes here is what im weighing right now. upping my win % even if slightly in every MU by adding a very relevant wish target and a enabler card to make IU hands do fast overkill piles with lower card and mana requirements and making a bad draw a nuts draw making for better mulligans more keeps at 7 etc. Now in what you said you board it in against open handing it vs show and tell ok sounds fine. High Tide "Meh" The only guy playing Tide i know does play MD force and hes good enough to combo T5 slinging counters with leylines out and pithing needle on his candles doesn't even phase him rough quote him " I love a Challenge"
The other decks plenty have wastelands and i have abrupt decays and for what to accelerate your win condition if you open DD and ritual maybe by a turn in a few matchups and in most of them you don't want to draw EM.
I crush scrub deck if i interpreted that correctly. So far i have had really good results with this deck but i haven't taken it to anything major yet. When dragons maze comes out im going to some SCG thing at a hotel nearby to play side events legacy 15$ 8 man for boxes i want to bring this deck :).
As always i appreciate your input Do you know what thread he convinced him in or was it a private conversation i would love to read the conversation. Whenever i try to tweak his list it ends up being me not understanding a card choice in most cases but at this point i think it might just be current meta and my style of mulliganing / digging with the deck that affects the decision to run IGGY and IU SB to slightly improve the base consistency of my deck and my wish package. Keep in mind Brainstorm BW hands are also nasty with IU in board for +1 Storm to go to lethal for 1UR maybe not important there but. BW probe hands are now lethal for 1R without even using IGGY or casting the DR.
either way Im still enjoying the deck and the format which im both relatively new too and i get better with it every day still. I am still learning and alot of it isnt even the deck its the format you cant blind call SB hate cards with a Ct if you odnt know what every deck is playing in its SB XD.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I'm just thinking about eventually putting this deck together (I have just about everything but a couple of the fetchlands and the SDT's and Doomsdays), and I was having some trouble with playing out the first pile on that Spreadsheet:
If I figured it out correctly, I have the pile playing out as (from 0 cards in hand, Doomsday resolved and SDT on board)
Top on Top, draw IU
IU floating 2U (2 storm)
LED (3 storm)
Top, floating 1U (4)
Top on Top, respond with CoV targeting Top, floating 1 (5)
LED #2 (6)
Recast Top (7)
Top on Top, respond by cracking LEDx2 for BBBRRR
BW (8)
ToA (9)
But I'm not seeing how to get that pile to Storm 10.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
use SDT to grab IU
2) Cast IU drawing LED/TOP/CoV
3) cast LED
4) cast top
- Put top trigger on the stack
5) cast CoV targetting LED,
sac a land and target Top
6) Replay LED
7) replay top
8) play drawn LED
9) BW
10) ToA
UBRWDDFTWBRU
UBRWGTESGWRBU
Just to keep relevant with card choices, here is the version I am currently playing. I would describe my list as relatively stock, with the extra Burning Wish as an adjustment to playing against heavy discard strategies.
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Doomsday
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lotus Petal
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rain of Filth
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
2 Island
1 Swamp
15
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Time Spiral
1 Infernal Contract
1 Doomsday
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Preordain
1 Tropical Island
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Karakas
Over protection card #7 MD? I asked some questions about this on the storm boards nam pretty much said you run 7 because the decks been heavily tested and going up to 8 or down to 6 would require justification. The preordain in the SB seems odd why did you choose to put it Thier? I actualy tested this ddck on full preordains and petals it seemed like the petals were better is this card a wish target?
On badlands I have read quite a bit on it but I don't see why it's important to have a r/b source could you give me an example of when it would be better than my land base as I have read about using a badlands but it's always vague.
I See you also favor the Emmy package what MU do you find it increases your win % and by how much? Either way looks solid thus deck has such a strong core I find it hard to SB many differnt cards out of the deck I need more testing !
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
So
Cast DR's LEDS and DD storm 5 floating 10 flop toP cast IU floating 8
Cast led led top floating 7 storm 9 crack led flop top 13 mana cast wish 11 mana storm 10 cast spiral untap 3 storm 12 go to 8 mana
Cast DR's and LEDs again storm 16 12 mana
Use BW and tendrils hit for 36 damage then cast DD cracking led and killing them. That one was easy enough
Edit : only crack on led to the frist DD too not mill out to spiral I guess that's important
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Silence
3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
2 Lotus Petal
2 Duress
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rain of Filth
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Time Spiral
1 Infernal Contract
1 Doomsday
1 Massacre
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens
Here's the list I've been playing with. A little more mainstream nothing really varies. But for sake of discussion I'll give some differences.
The landbase: I still run silences, so i need white. Otherwise, its important to have proper fetches and basics. If you are in UBR i think i might play a basic mountain because i could (replace plains) and run Deltas + Tarns and be able to fetch all 3 basics. Having 3 basics is pivotal against wasteland especially 1 for each color. Although Red being least significant.
Protection suite: 4 silence, 2 duress 1 cabal therapy + therapy in the board
Duress over therapy, in general I'm looking at grabbing FoW/Counters, however against unknown opponent can grab other problem cards including SNT/etc. Doesn't have the lifeloss of Thoughtsezie (which i have tried, and sometimes problematic). Therapy + duress gives us more information.
Silences: These have been invaluable for protection versus multiple counters, chantwalking maverick/junk. Stronger in storm mirrors/high tide, and i find myself against burn frequently enough as many people are on a budget and this really saves us post DD. I do however like the discard for the information it gives and am liking the 3-4 split silence/discard. Discussion on the boards also warrants relative information on this split, some of it is preference.
Mainboard karakas: This has won me more games than CoV. Against SNT/Thalia/etc. Its worth the spot even if you aren't playing white IMO.
SB Karakas: I like 2-3 karakas, in the matchups we want them, finding it is important. Others will say they hate having 2 for the times they draw both. Then again, many times your opponent will have 1 for yours, and the second is needed as well. Also a preference thing.
DD/TSP/IC/ToA/Therapy/ETW/Massacre: standard slots
ToA #2: I like it as i find myself against surgical enough that i like having a back up plan. Its been relevant.
SI/Emrakul: This wins many games for me. Against countertop decks or budget lists. I've won many games from turn 1 DR-> DD pass. SI -> Emrakul. Its hard to deal with. Also bring it in against SNT to give us the option to get into to play thanks to them or kill theirs as well. This + karakas + switching to discard instead of 7 silences has improved this MU. Although still not entirely favorable.
Cabal in the board. Its more relevant games 2-3 and as a wish target as we generally know what we need to get rid of at this point. Not limited like duress.
UBRWDDFTWBRU
UBRWGTESGWRBU
Also thank you stompy
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
The sideboard Preordain allows me to turn an extra Wish into a way to access the top of a DD pile, but it also turns an extra Wish into a way to see more cards for slow hands and allows me to make my deck more linear for sideboard games if I need to. I tried it on a whim and I've been quite happy with it.
For me at least, the Badlands is slightly more necessary because I play the 4th Burning Wish. I also had 2 Bloodstained Mire prior to adding green to the sideboard. In general, storm decks only really lose to hand disruption, the stack, and troublesome permanents. Adding discard for the stack interactions is standardized, and finding ways to play though hand disruption can vary across decks. Abrupt Decay is an excellent compliment to Chain of Vapor and Karakas for removing troublesome permanents. I also actually had 4 Force of Will to board in with the Shelldock Isle package. It was fun while it lasted.
I haven't seen or played against Chalice of the Void. If I do, I may make some alterations to account for it better, although I'm not sure what those changes would be.
Play against alot of tempo and burn so I favour duress over seize
I still don't quite understand badlands as you cut bloodstained why is it important to have B and R on same source can you give me an example I'm still confused. IU seems better in SB than preordain but it doesn't seem useless. I want to try Emmy I guess I don't think I own shell dock isle but lgs should have one. I don't think I want to cut any decays they are way to important post board in my meta.
Also I did the puzzle a little harder on 1 DR I messed up
The first time got like 44 or 42 damage realized it was either double wish DD pile for first pile or triple wish I try DD first relize I can't land top before spiral and still have the BBB for DD then go back and try the triple wish pile success it defintly took me more than 3 minutes however I naturally did the IU led led wish wish pile for like 44 damage.
On 3 petal 6 protection vs 2 petal 7 protection I honestly like the idea of a petal over a therapy in my game 1 but I don't like how it munches a sideboard slot :/.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
There may be a way to further optimize the deck space that I'm unaware of. So far, I am only playing what has worked for me. By all means, if we can arrive at something better we should at least try.