If you run the Presence/Chalice@0 combo, your Lotus Petals will get countered. Personally, I wouldn't use that combo period, but if you want to run it, at least run 3 or 4 Wild Cantors so that you can pitch ESG for them and get your black mana for Songs.
One win condition is not enough; Stifle and Mindbreak Trap kill you dead. I'd run a single other wincon as backup, a second Tendrils should do fine, or something not targetted to deal with Leyline. Bushwhacker is the most highly recommended answer to Leyline, but is unusable in your build unless you drop Chalice and add Cantors.
Since your running Black, you should run at least 2, probably 3 maindeck Cabal Therapy. If you feel brave, also run Spoils of the Vault.
Your shifting Walls should be Memnites.
Here's the black version I put together earlier today:
Hmm. Wild Cantor seems like a good call, and I like Spoils of the Vault, but I'd be leery of it without anyway to turn it off, such as an Angel's Grace or something like that.
I run Shifting Walls instead of Memnite because I never really plan on running a creature based damage combo, and if I get all of my walls on the board, I can turn Songs of the Damned on without the Chalice combo. I don't mind too much that it makes my Lotus Petals dead draws, because as long as I can produce one black mana, I can activate my combo, and if I have the Chalice package on the board, I still get draws from the Petals. I can see why Cantor would be a lot better with the Chalice package, though, most definitely.
I don't know if I'd ever have the mana base for Bushwhacker without Petals, though. Would you just side them in and out together? Or maybe one G/R shock?
Are your numbers assuming play or draw? I'm sceptical about chosing draw, for fear of Thoughtsieze). It would be relevant to fix the numbers given on mulligan if the first hand is no good.
What do you board against Trinisphere? Do we just try to outrace it?
I plan to SB a Storm Entity - good against Leyline and lots of fun.
My issue is the sideboard. I'm okay with using Autumn's Veil against blue decks and Silence against combo decks. I also have Beastmaster to switch to aggro against decks with Chalice of the Void. Bushwhacker and Storm Entity are alternate win conditions to beat Leyline. Is that really all I necessarily need to worry about?
Considering that your opponent's spot removal is largely irrelevant (why would they kill any zero-cmc creature or Wild Cantor?), it'll be saved in their hand. Guess what? Xantid Swarm will die as soon as it hits the field, every single time.
Considering that your opponent's spot removal is largely irrelevant (why would they kill any zero-cmc creature or Wild Cantor?), it'll be saved in their hand. Guess what? Xantid Swarm will die as soon as it hits the field, every single time.
Xantid Swarm comes in from the sideboard, and only against decks with counters. Those decks aren't all that likely to have the T1 spot removal, and have a pretty good chance of sideboarding it out.
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Xantid Swarm comes in from the sideboard, and only against decks with counters. Those decks aren't all that likely to have the T1 spot removal, and have a pretty good chance of sideboarding it out.
That is a better argument. I don't know if I'd necessarily replace Autumn's Veil, though.
Been doing a lot of testing. Xantid Swarm is better than Autumn's Veil/Silence/Overmaster for 2 reasons (besides the creature-mid-combo already mentioned): 1) It's harder to deal with. Spot removal is rare in control decks, and almost certainly will be sided out if they see what you're doing. 2) It allows you to combo out with only one mana source, unlike any other anti-control card besides Pact.
New sideboard tech against Chalice/3Sphere/Counterbalance: Wispmare and Ingot Chewer.
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Swarm requires you play it turn one and go off turn two. The disadvantage is you might have played Personal Tutor turn one instead. If you don't draw Glimpse and need to tutor you can work with one mana turn one and two mana turn two if you use silence. with Swarm you need two mana turn one. Perhaps with Swarm you should also board out tutors for gambles?
I don't see how Veil is better than Silence except for the less prohibitive colour cost. Silence stops Stifle against storm, or even against Bushwhacker or Signal Pest. It also stops opposing Silence mid-combo, Mindbreak Trap, etc. If white is a problem we could board in Savannah for Tropical Island and Gamble for Tutors?
@ serenechaos - I love the evoke tech! This is just what I was looking for to fill out the side board.
I finally built my black version IRL and have been goldfishing it. Even raced my friend's original version that I've been playing a few times.
Maindeck Cabal Therapy is legit. My friend insists it should be strictly sideboard, but I'm liking the 2 main/2 side split for a little game one hate against control. Also, my friend is a bit more reckless and less interested in beating control =P
Against almost any deck under the sun, turn 1 Probe-->Therapy-->Flashback is crippling. It doesn't even matter if you combo out at that point.
My friend also hates Mumuring Bosk. I think it's cool, cheap, and less of a drawback in a deck aiming for turn 2-3 wins, but he says it's stupid =( It served me well against him, though, when I played it turn 1 and used it turn 2 for a Scapegoat.
Spoils has been both lethal and amazing. I would say it is just as trolly (and fun) as Gamble. I have lost to it because all 4 of my Glimpses were right next to each other at the bottom, and I have won off double Spoil to 2 life. Just remember that by the time you need it to find Scapegoat or Petal (or whatever else you need), your deck will be very, very thin
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Speed-wise, it's a die roll. Consistency-wise, Belcher may have a hair on us, but not much at all. As for resilience against blue decks, this one has more, but you can still go into a blue matchup expecting to lose. The saving grace is sideboard hate, and the fact that we dump our hand AFTER our clinching combo piece. Belcher gets their namesake countered and scoops. We can wait for another one.
All in all, this is pretty comparable to Belcher, and in general you can expect it to behave somewhat like Belcher.
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I really need to put this together then. At my last tournament I got paired against Belcher, and it was fascinating. Unfortunately for him I was playing High Tide, and his first Probe revealed not just Force but Flusterstorm as well.
I opened with Force, luckily, in game 2 as well, and won. But that doesn't take away from how cool the deck was. I like the idea of Probe, Land Grant, and an insane flurry of cards that wins on turn 1 or 2. It was cool that I got to see his hand.
If he'd only had that Therapy, now... The Force would not have saved me.
I've played this deck in two small tournaments recently. My build is pretty aggro-centric with Beastmaster Ascension and Goblin Bushwacker to go for the attack step kills, though I have a Burning Wish MB to go get a couple storm cards or Biorhythm if I'm feeling cheeky. One I went 4-0, the other I went 1-3. The 4-0 night was the worst Legacy night I ever had. Not that I played poorly or it was a bad tournament, but it was in a game shop right after the school year ended and it seemed like every parent whose kid graduated 4th grade rewarded them by paying the $5 entry fee for the tournament. So I played against 2 kids who hadn't reached puberty yet with their 100-card elf decks and ADD, and one guy who was just coming back to the game after a long absence and using a Dark Ascension tournament deck. My one real match was a quick romp over Valakut, though aided by his misplay of a choice of land in game 2. Yay me with my 4 packs.
The second tournament was just to make sure the first was a mirage, this one at probably the most competitive store around.
In the first round I was paired against ANT. I won 2-0. I Glimpsed into half my deck turn one including Concordant Crossroads and Beastmaster Ascension the first game (total nut draw), then watched him Ad Nauseam himself to death in the second.
Next I played against I think mono-W Stoneblade. At one point I actually had some tough decisions on whether to go for it on one turn or wait till the next, looking at the mana I had available (a Petal and Cantor, no land) versus 2 Glimpses and a single Kobold in hand. I held on one more turn to see if I could draw something more useful. I didn't, went for the double Glimpse with my single creature, drew a pair of forests (I only have 5 lands in the whole deck), and died.
Third was against S&T Dream Halls with the False Cure kill. He got me game one. Game 2 I SB'd my super-secret anti-Progenitus tech (Fleshbag Marauder) but it didn't matter. I had I think 3 dudes in play with not much going on, waiting to get enough mana to play Concordant Crossroads and Beastmaster Ascension in the same turn, when went for S&T, he put down Progenitus, I put down Beastmaster Ascension. He passed but even Progdnuos could not overcome the mounting counters. I admit that felt pretty good. But then he comboed me out quickly in the third game. This deck mulligans very harshly.
Fourth round I got the bye, being the only 1-2 still in the tournament, so 3 free PWPs for me.
I won't alibi on anything, but it could've gone the other way. Bricking on double-Glimpse against Stoneblade was a low-probability bummer, and if I had gotten in there, it was still just one victory, anything could've happened in game 3. Winning that round meant I probably would've played RUG Delver in round 3, and I have no idea how that match would be any easier. But the deck relies on a series of coin-flips, and even getting to those coin-flips requires some luck, patience, and forebearance on the part of your opponent. When I read about people top-8ing a 100-player tournament with this kind of deck, it's amazing to me. So many things can easily go wrong that you have absolutely no control over.
The lessons I learned from these games and another 4-rounder I played last year is that you are a real dog to anyone who is willing to counter your Glimpse, but don't give up. If you can get down a Beastmaster Ascension (if you play that style), do the math to see how many counters you can get on it and when. Counterspells are a bummer, as is discard. You don't have to rush to win, you can usually afford to play around a couple things and sculpt a hand for a bit, but often times it's best to just go for it, and if they have an answer now, they'll have the same answer later. However, over the course of I think 12 matches I only had glimpse get countered once or twice. These days of unfair decks seem to only use counterspells to protect their own spells, and not so much to disrupt the other guy unless its totally obvious, and this deck isn't quite obvious to everyone.
I have been wondering about adding blue. I was messing around with a very rough version adding blue for Brainstorm, Spell Pierce, Spellstutter Sprite, Gitaxian Probe, and/or Snapcaster Mage. It's not ready yet, as it's a major shift in philosophy, but I can tell you that playing Glimpse and then Snapcasting that Glimpse is pretty darn sweet.
My other idea was to add Shrine of Burning Rage. With 20 red creatures (I run 12 Kobolds, 3 Wild Cantor, 1 Bushwacker, plus 4 SSG), it doesn't seem far-fetched to tweak it a bit, play out a bunch free red dudes and drop a Shrine on someone. Maybe add Painter's Servant. But that is going pretty far afield.
Anyway, this deck is insanely fun when it works, and when it doesn't it feels worse than sitting on your scrotum.
That was a pretty great report, and I'm glad you're enjoying the deck! Could e we possibly see your list? 5 lands sounds like an awful lot...
I wouldn't mind Snapz, but the only real reason to play him (Glimpse+flashback) costs 4 mana and requires having 2 specific cards. Most times I would rather just double Glimpse.
As for adding blue in general, I really, really prefer Cabal Therapy, Xantid Swarm, Silence, and Pact of Negation over any other anti-hate. They mesh much better with the deck and have the least impact on the gameplan, while Daze requires us to run more lands, Force requires more Blue, Spell Pierce is less protective at 1 mana than Silence/Autumn's Veil, and Spellstutter doesn't stop our scary friends Force and Daze.
Beastmaster is usually the go-to plan for a failed combo, but also remember that a second Glimpse will usually get through countermagic. We have also realized that against Blue decks, Gitaxian Probe should be sided out for Noxious Revival. It protects you against counterspells by giving you back your Glimpse, and it protects you against Surgical Extraction as well.
Mulligan aggressively against control decks. Holding a Glimpse-Glimpse-ESG hand against a control deck for 4-5 turns can easily win you the game. Also the sideboard Autumn's Veil helps a lot, as my girlfriend discovered when 2-1'ing a Blue deck the other day =)
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I've been using your list from post #11 as a starting point for my own. I notice the thread's been dead for about a month (and several more before that), but as best I can tell you still play the deck so I was curious to get your feedback and answers to a few questions I've had.
I prefer Personal Tutor over Gamble - when I want Glimpse I want it. If I'm already cutting Gamble for a third Personal Tutor, then I the only time I'll need Red is when I'm looking for a finisher. A singleton MB Grapeshot is easy to cast off Lotus Petal and Wild Cantor, and additional sources of white mana (especially repeatable sources) make resetting with Scapegoat that much easier and adds (from my testing) a bit more consistency to the deck.
Running a list without Taiga raises the question of whether one can run Bushwhacker and kick it reliably. It certainly requires more thought to ensure you have double red if you need to use Petals/Cantors to feed Scapegoat. How have you found Beastmaster Ascension by comparison? Have you found needing to wait a turn to attack costs you the game against wrath effects (Terminous, Deed, Explosives, Ratchet Bomb, etc)? I'll need to do more testing to see if Taiga vs. Savannah changes the landscape enough to influence the choice of one over the other.
In your opinion, how important is Wild Cantor? I wouldn't discount the importance of mana fixing, but if I'm largely cutting red I wonder if it might be the correct call to shave one copy for something else. Phyrexian Marauders and Shifting Wall won't survive, but can at least draw a card with no mana available. This is 100% speculation, as I haven't tested cutting any yet, but I wanted to get your input as you have more experience with the deck than I do.
You mentioned in your last post that you recommend boarding in Noxious Revival against blue decks as a means of resiliency against counterspells. How many do you tend to board in, and how do you feel that the lack of cantrip effects your likelyhood of fizzling when you attempt to combo?
Well, P. Tutor over Gamble is a personal choice; I've found myself grabbing everything from Scapegoat to more 0-drops to land with Gamble, but it does get dangerous and occasionally cost you games.
As for Red sources for finishers, those should be no problem. Even Bushwhacker is easily kicked off Petals and Cantors once you've combo'd off. With 4 Petals and 2-3 ESG's/Cantors, you would have to Scapegoat 3-4 times to be in danger, which is highly unlikely.
I've not found myself dying to board wipes often, though if you're worried about it and not running Red for Bushwhacker, Concordant Crossroads is also available.
I personally find Wild Cantor to be very important, simply because she cycles your mana sources and makes Scapegoating easier, however without Gamble or Bushwhacker, she may be unnecessary as a 2-3 of. If you cut her for something, I would recommend a maindeck Noxious Revival or Surgical Extraction.
I haven't been able to test with Revival yet, as I've had a packed summer schedule. Theoretically, I would side in 4 Revivals. It essentially gives you more opening hands with double Glimpse, so fizzling will be slightly more likely, but less damaging overall. If you fizzle with Probe in hand, you get one shot to keep going. If you fizzle with Revival in hand, you get to try again (and if you fizzled with another Glimpse in hand, you can hand pick whatever piece you need to try later).
Good luck with the deck, and please, keep coming back with any reports, questions, or comments =)
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Well, P. Tutor over Gamble is a personal choice; I've found myself grabbing everything from Scapegoat to more 0-drops to land with Gamble, but it does get dangerous and occasionally cost you games.
Understandable. I think it's an interesting tradeoff between consistency and versatility. On a somewhat related note, I'd originally intended to ask about Summoner's Pact. I definitely like the ability to grab ESG or Wild Cantor in a pinch. Like Gamble, however, it comes with a sizeable risk. It seems like the four mana investment in the case that you fizzle would often be impossible to meet or at least cripple your ability to go off again. I suppose that may say more about WHEN to play it rather than IF you should play it, but I was again curious to get your feedback from having played with it more than I have.
I personally find Wild Cantor to be very important, simply because she cycles your mana sources and makes Scapegoating easier, however without Gamble or Bushwhacker, she may be unnecessary as a 2-3 of. If you cut her for something, I would recommend a maindeck Noxious Revival or Surgical Extraction.
I haven't been able to test with Revival yet, as I've had a packed summer schedule. Theoretically, I would side in 4 Revivals. It essentially gives you more opening hands with double Glimpse, so fizzling will be slightly more likely, but less damaging overall. If you fizzle with Probe in hand, you get one shot to keep going. If you fizzle with Revival in hand, you get to try again (and if you fizzled with another Glimpse in hand, you can hand pick whatever piece you need to try later).
Your reasoning re: Noxious Revival seems sound. I'll definitely have to test with the card. In terms of the Wild Cantor slot, I definitely like that Cantor will draw a card of Glimpse. I've had ESG>Cantor>Scapegoat with 3 cheeri0s out give me that gas bump I need to keep going.
Is there a benefit to running Surgical Extraction MD? Other than trying to rip redundant copies of counterspells / discard from opponents I don't see much that would make that a better choice than Cantor.
I've spent some time looking at other lists and didn't really like the direction they were going (too many lands, etc), but it suddenly occurs to me that running Skyshroud Cutter as a one-of gives the deck Summoner's Pact target that can sustain the combo without costing any mana. It makes securing a grapeshot kill harder (potentially), but you could hopefully brainfreeze if you don't hit enough storm. Maybe in place of 1x Wild Cantor?
I've lost to Summoner's Pact, but always because of fizzles which would probably have cost me the game anyway. I tend to hold it as long as possible unless I'm either very sure of the hand, or I really need to thin the deck. Point being, it doesn't so much lose you the game, as formalize losses that have already happened.
I've really liked my 1 Skyshroud Cutter. I might even run 2 if I had a second one IRL. Pacting for it, being able to swing stronger then Memnites, it's all plus. The added Storm count needed is hardly ever a drawback.
MD Extraction is really just to help slightly against counters and other incidental hate. Having to rebuild your hand is much less scary when you know they won't draw a second Force.
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I've lost to Summoner's Pact, but always because of fizzles which would probably have cost me the game anyway. I tend to hold it as long as possible unless I'm either very sure of the hand, or I really need to thin the deck. Point being, it doesn't so much lose you the game, as formalize losses that have already happened.
Good insight to have, I'll definitely need to keep an eye out for how that tends to play out. Certainly it makes sense not to gamble on an automatic game loss if you have another line of play that could also work.
I've really liked my 1 Skyshroud Cutter. I might even run 2 if I had a second one IRL. Pacting for it, being able to swing stronger then Memnites, it's all plus. The added Storm count needed is hardly ever a drawback.
I hadn't really seen any mention of the card on this forum - certainly not in your lists. Would you mind posting your updated list(s)?
OK so looking at this deck looks reall fun, I went ahead and looked at my cards and figured all i needed to spend was about 20$ and i have the deck made, so i went ahead and did it.
The deck list goes as follows
The 0 in Cherri0s (27)
4 crookshank kobolds
4 memnite
3 shiled sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Ornithopter
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Crimson Kobolds
Combo peices (12)
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Multani's Presence
4 Chalice of the Void
Others (12)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
The kill (3)
1 Songs of the Damned
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
Mana (6)
4 Misty rainforest
1 Bayou
1 Forest
So far for the sideboard i have:
3 Autumn's veil
3 Beastmaster Ascension
4 Signal Pest
4 Skyshroud cutter
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
One win condition is not enough; Stifle and Mindbreak Trap kill you dead. I'd run a single other wincon as backup, a second Tendrils should do fine, or something not targetted to deal with Leyline. Bushwhacker is the most highly recommended answer to Leyline, but is unusable in your build unless you drop Chalice and add Cantors.
Since your running Black, you should run at least 2, probably 3 maindeck Cabal Therapy. If you feel brave, also run Spoils of the Vault.
Your shifting Walls should be Memnites.
Here's the black version I put together earlier today:
4x Ornithopter
4x Shield Sphere
4x Phyrexian Walker
4x Crimson Kobolds
4x Kobolds of Kher Keep
3x Crookshank Kobolds
3x Wild Cantor
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Lotus Petal
3x Spoils of the Vault
2x Land Grant
2x Scapegoat
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Summoner's Pact
1x Grapeshot
1x Beastmaster Ascension
1x Murmuring Bosk
2x Verdant Catacombs
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I run Shifting Walls instead of Memnite because I never really plan on running a creature based damage combo, and if I get all of my walls on the board, I can turn Songs of the Damned on without the Chalice combo. I don't mind too much that it makes my Lotus Petals dead draws, because as long as I can produce one black mana, I can activate my combo, and if I have the Chalice package on the board, I still get draws from the Petals. I can see why Cantor would be a lot better with the Chalice package, though, most definitely.
I don't know if I'd ever have the mana base for Bushwhacker without Petals, though. Would you just side them in and out together? Or maybe one G/R shock?
Are your numbers assuming play or draw? I'm sceptical about chosing draw, for fear of Thoughtsieze). It would be relevant to fix the numbers given on mulligan if the first hand is no good.
What do you board against Trinisphere? Do we just try to outrace it?
I plan to SB a Storm Entity - good against Leyline and lots of fun.
Thank you for the inspiring thread!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Shield Sphere
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Memnite
2 Wild Cantor
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
Spells:
4 Lotus Petal
1 Grapeshot
1 Brain Freeze
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Land Grant
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Gamble
3 Scapegoat
2 Summoner's Pact
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Silence
2 Beastmaster Ascension
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Storm Entity
1 Gamble
My issue is the sideboard. I'm okay with using Autumn's Veil against blue decks and Silence against combo decks. I also have Beastmaster to switch to aggro against decks with Chalice of the Void. Bushwhacker and Storm Entity are alternate win conditions to beat Leyline. Is that really all I necessarily need to worry about?
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Considering that your opponent's spot removal is largely irrelevant (why would they kill any zero-cmc creature or Wild Cantor?), it'll be saved in their hand. Guess what? Xantid Swarm will die as soon as it hits the field, every single time.
Autumn's Veil is much better in our decks.
Xantid Swarm comes in from the sideboard, and only against decks with counters. Those decks aren't all that likely to have the T1 spot removal, and have a pretty good chance of sideboarding it out.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
That is a better argument. I don't know if I'd necessarily replace Autumn's Veil, though.
The advantage is that it's a creature, so it clogs you up less if you're trying to combo out.
The disadvantage is spot removal, of course.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Maybe a split of some sorts between the two?
New sideboard tech against Chalice/3Sphere/Counterbalance: Wispmare and Ingot Chewer.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I don't see how Veil is better than Silence except for the less prohibitive colour cost. Silence stops Stifle against storm, or even against Bushwhacker or Signal Pest. It also stops opposing Silence mid-combo, Mindbreak Trap, etc. If white is a problem we could board in Savannah for Tropical Island and Gamble for Tutors?
@ serenechaos - I love the evoke tech! This is just what I was looking for to fill out the side board.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Maindeck Cabal Therapy is legit. My friend insists it should be strictly sideboard, but I'm liking the 2 main/2 side split for a little game one hate against control. Also, my friend is a bit more reckless and less interested in beating control =P
Against almost any deck under the sun, turn 1 Probe-->Therapy-->Flashback is crippling. It doesn't even matter if you combo out at that point.
My friend also hates Mumuring Bosk. I think it's cool, cheap, and less of a drawback in a deck aiming for turn 2-3 wins, but he says it's stupid =( It served me well against him, though, when I played it turn 1 and used it turn 2 for a Scapegoat.
Spoils has been both lethal and amazing. I would say it is just as trolly (and fun) as Gamble. I have lost to it because all 4 of my Glimpses were right next to each other at the bottom, and I have won off double Spoil to 2 life. Just remember that by the time you need it to find Scapegoat or Petal (or whatever else you need), your deck will be very, very thin
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
It looks fascinating. I'm itching to play it. I think a silly-fast combo deck with Cabal Therapy (such as Moldy Cheri0s) might just work out for me.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
All in all, this is pretty comparable to Belcher, and in general you can expect it to behave somewhat like Belcher.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I opened with Force, luckily, in game 2 as well, and won. But that doesn't take away from how cool the deck was. I like the idea of Probe, Land Grant, and an insane flurry of cards that wins on turn 1 or 2. It was cool that I got to see his hand.
If he'd only had that Therapy, now... The Force would not have saved me.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
The second tournament was just to make sure the first was a mirage, this one at probably the most competitive store around.
In the first round I was paired against ANT. I won 2-0. I Glimpsed into half my deck turn one including Concordant Crossroads and Beastmaster Ascension the first game (total nut draw), then watched him Ad Nauseam himself to death in the second.
Next I played against I think mono-W Stoneblade. At one point I actually had some tough decisions on whether to go for it on one turn or wait till the next, looking at the mana I had available (a Petal and Cantor, no land) versus 2 Glimpses and a single Kobold in hand. I held on one more turn to see if I could draw something more useful. I didn't, went for the double Glimpse with my single creature, drew a pair of forests (I only have 5 lands in the whole deck), and died.
Third was against S&T Dream Halls with the False Cure kill. He got me game one. Game 2 I SB'd my super-secret anti-Progenitus tech (Fleshbag Marauder) but it didn't matter. I had I think 3 dudes in play with not much going on, waiting to get enough mana to play Concordant Crossroads and Beastmaster Ascension in the same turn, when went for S&T, he put down Progenitus, I put down Beastmaster Ascension. He passed but even Progdnuos could not overcome the mounting counters. I admit that felt pretty good. But then he comboed me out quickly in the third game. This deck mulligans very harshly.
Fourth round I got the bye, being the only 1-2 still in the tournament, so 3 free PWPs for me.
I won't alibi on anything, but it could've gone the other way. Bricking on double-Glimpse against Stoneblade was a low-probability bummer, and if I had gotten in there, it was still just one victory, anything could've happened in game 3. Winning that round meant I probably would've played RUG Delver in round 3, and I have no idea how that match would be any easier. But the deck relies on a series of coin-flips, and even getting to those coin-flips requires some luck, patience, and forebearance on the part of your opponent. When I read about people top-8ing a 100-player tournament with this kind of deck, it's amazing to me. So many things can easily go wrong that you have absolutely no control over.
The lessons I learned from these games and another 4-rounder I played last year is that you are a real dog to anyone who is willing to counter your Glimpse, but don't give up. If you can get down a Beastmaster Ascension (if you play that style), do the math to see how many counters you can get on it and when. Counterspells are a bummer, as is discard. You don't have to rush to win, you can usually afford to play around a couple things and sculpt a hand for a bit, but often times it's best to just go for it, and if they have an answer now, they'll have the same answer later. However, over the course of I think 12 matches I only had glimpse get countered once or twice. These days of unfair decks seem to only use counterspells to protect their own spells, and not so much to disrupt the other guy unless its totally obvious, and this deck isn't quite obvious to everyone.
I have been wondering about adding blue. I was messing around with a very rough version adding blue for Brainstorm, Spell Pierce, Spellstutter Sprite, Gitaxian Probe, and/or Snapcaster Mage. It's not ready yet, as it's a major shift in philosophy, but I can tell you that playing Glimpse and then Snapcasting that Glimpse is pretty darn sweet.
My other idea was to add Shrine of Burning Rage. With 20 red creatures (I run 12 Kobolds, 3 Wild Cantor, 1 Bushwacker, plus 4 SSG), it doesn't seem far-fetched to tweak it a bit, play out a bunch free red dudes and drop a Shrine on someone. Maybe add Painter's Servant. But that is going pretty far afield.
Anyway, this deck is insanely fun when it works, and when it doesn't it feels worse than sitting on your scrotum.
I wouldn't mind Snapz, but the only real reason to play him (Glimpse+flashback) costs 4 mana and requires having 2 specific cards. Most times I would rather just double Glimpse.
As for adding blue in general, I really, really prefer Cabal Therapy, Xantid Swarm, Silence, and Pact of Negation over any other anti-hate. They mesh much better with the deck and have the least impact on the gameplan, while Daze requires us to run more lands, Force requires more Blue, Spell Pierce is less protective at 1 mana than Silence/Autumn's Veil, and Spellstutter doesn't stop our scary friends Force and Daze.
Beastmaster is usually the go-to plan for a failed combo, but also remember that a second Glimpse will usually get through countermagic. We have also realized that against Blue decks, Gitaxian Probe should be sided out for Noxious Revival. It protects you against counterspells by giving you back your Glimpse, and it protects you against Surgical Extraction as well.
Mulligan aggressively against control decks. Holding a Glimpse-Glimpse-ESG hand against a control deck for 4-5 turns can easily win you the game. Also the sideboard Autumn's Veil helps a lot, as my girlfriend discovered when 2-1'ing a Blue deck the other day =)
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I've been using your list from post #11 as a starting point for my own. I notice the thread's been dead for about a month (and several more before that), but as best I can tell you still play the deck so I was curious to get your feedback and answers to a few questions I've had.
I prefer Personal Tutor over Gamble - when I want Glimpse I want it. If I'm already cutting Gamble for a third Personal Tutor, then I the only time I'll need Red is when I'm looking for a finisher. A singleton MB Grapeshot is easy to cast off Lotus Petal and Wild Cantor, and additional sources of white mana (especially repeatable sources) make resetting with Scapegoat that much easier and adds (from my testing) a bit more consistency to the deck.
Running a list without Taiga raises the question of whether one can run Bushwhacker and kick it reliably. It certainly requires more thought to ensure you have double red if you need to use Petals/Cantors to feed Scapegoat. How have you found Beastmaster Ascension by comparison? Have you found needing to wait a turn to attack costs you the game against wrath effects (Terminous, Deed, Explosives, Ratchet Bomb, etc)? I'll need to do more testing to see if Taiga vs. Savannah changes the landscape enough to influence the choice of one over the other.
In your opinion, how important is Wild Cantor? I wouldn't discount the importance of mana fixing, but if I'm largely cutting red I wonder if it might be the correct call to shave one copy for something else. Phyrexian Marauders and Shifting Wall won't survive, but can at least draw a card with no mana available. This is 100% speculation, as I haven't tested cutting any yet, but I wanted to get your input as you have more experience with the deck than I do.
You mentioned in your last post that you recommend boarding in Noxious Revival against blue decks as a means of resiliency against counterspells. How many do you tend to board in, and how do you feel that the lack of cantrip effects your likelyhood of fizzling when you attempt to combo?
As for Red sources for finishers, those should be no problem. Even Bushwhacker is easily kicked off Petals and Cantors once you've combo'd off. With 4 Petals and 2-3 ESG's/Cantors, you would have to Scapegoat 3-4 times to be in danger, which is highly unlikely.
I've not found myself dying to board wipes often, though if you're worried about it and not running Red for Bushwhacker, Concordant Crossroads is also available.
I personally find Wild Cantor to be very important, simply because she cycles your mana sources and makes Scapegoating easier, however without Gamble or Bushwhacker, she may be unnecessary as a 2-3 of. If you cut her for something, I would recommend a maindeck Noxious Revival or Surgical Extraction.
I haven't been able to test with Revival yet, as I've had a packed summer schedule. Theoretically, I would side in 4 Revivals. It essentially gives you more opening hands with double Glimpse, so fizzling will be slightly more likely, but less damaging overall. If you fizzle with Probe in hand, you get one shot to keep going. If you fizzle with Revival in hand, you get to try again (and if you fizzled with another Glimpse in hand, you can hand pick whatever piece you need to try later).
Good luck with the deck, and please, keep coming back with any reports, questions, or comments =)
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Understandable. I think it's an interesting tradeoff between consistency and versatility. On a somewhat related note, I'd originally intended to ask about Summoner's Pact. I definitely like the ability to grab ESG or Wild Cantor in a pinch. Like Gamble, however, it comes with a sizeable risk. It seems like the four mana investment in the case that you fizzle would often be impossible to meet or at least cripple your ability to go off again. I suppose that may say more about WHEN to play it rather than IF you should play it, but I was again curious to get your feedback from having played with it more than I have.
Your reasoning re: Noxious Revival seems sound. I'll definitely have to test with the card. In terms of the Wild Cantor slot, I definitely like that Cantor will draw a card of Glimpse. I've had ESG>Cantor>Scapegoat with 3 cheeri0s out give me that gas bump I need to keep going.
Is there a benefit to running Surgical Extraction MD? Other than trying to rip redundant copies of counterspells / discard from opponents I don't see much that would make that a better choice than Cantor.
I've spent some time looking at other lists and didn't really like the direction they were going (too many lands, etc), but it suddenly occurs to me that running Skyshroud Cutter as a one-of gives the deck Summoner's Pact target that can sustain the combo without costing any mana. It makes securing a grapeshot kill harder (potentially), but you could hopefully brainfreeze if you don't hit enough storm. Maybe in place of 1x Wild Cantor?
I've really liked my 1 Skyshroud Cutter. I might even run 2 if I had a second one IRL. Pacting for it, being able to swing stronger then Memnites, it's all plus. The added Storm count needed is hardly ever a drawback.
MD Extraction is really just to help slightly against counters and other incidental hate. Having to rebuild your hand is much less scary when you know they won't draw a second Force.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Good insight to have, I'll definitely need to keep an eye out for how that tends to play out. Certainly it makes sense not to gamble on an automatic game loss if you have another line of play that could also work.
I hadn't really seen any mention of the card on this forum - certainly not in your lists. Would you mind posting your updated list(s)?
The deck list goes as follows
The 0 in Cherri0s (27)
4 crookshank kobolds
4 memnite
3 shiled sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Ornithopter
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Crimson Kobolds
Combo peices (12)
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Multani's Presence
4 Chalice of the Void
Others (12)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
The kill (3)
1 Songs of the Damned
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
Mana (6)
4 Misty rainforest
1 Bayou
1 Forest
So far for the sideboard i have:
3 Autumn's veil
3 Beastmaster Ascension
4 Signal Pest
4 Skyshroud cutter
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
Basically you can either combo using just glimps and use goblin bushwackeras the kill condition. Or use Chalice of the Void and Glimpse of nature/Multani's Presence to draw your deck and get ur storm up and then use Tendrils of Agony and Songs of the Damned to kill them.
You need to be carful with the storm kill because if Songs of the Damned gets countered you loose.
The four Force of willin the main just to pitch a force with another force so Songs of the damned does not get countered.
Comments?
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
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