With Chalice of the Void on 0 with the Multani's Presence combo it would get countered rather than counter something.
I acually like Autumn's veil instead of FOW now becuase you play it and they NEED to counter it or they loose. or you can bait the counter out with it then do something else, like drop a Beastmaster Ascension
I forgot about Chalice - I don't run it. I can see how it screws Pact, though. Have you tried Xantid Swarm? It's good because it triggers Glimpse. Again, not as good with the Multani's Presence combo.
I don't like this combo because it requires two cards to activate, counters your Petals, and leaves your library loaded with three dead Chalices while you combo out. I prefer running just Glimpse Of Nature with extratutors - the tutors can at least get something good while you're going off.
Personally I only side in protection. If I expect to need it main I usually play a different deck.
Ya I acually just picked the deck up. I only needed to spend aournd 20$ to try it so i said why not. I have acaully pulled song of the damed and tendrles of agony out of it and replaced it with a siminan spirit guide and grape shot. Still not sure if im going to keep that combo. If i do remove the chalice combo, ill added SOTD and TOA back into it then change up my mana base for some tutors. I dont like the idea of gamble and persontal tutors my be a little slow, but it does open up more room for more cherri0s.
I don't mean to be critical. I personally dislike the Chalice combo, but lots of people play it. Or played it - Cherri0s isn't exactly tearing up the legacy scene these days in any build. It's a fun deck though! I also didn't realize you can draw off subsequent Chalice Of The Voids, so that's a little better than I though.
Your reasoning re: Noxious Revival seems sound. I'll definitely have to test with the card.
Yeah, I like the sound of this card - I'd almost maindeck it! I like the thought of targeting Glimpse Of Nature to cast it again - we rarely fizzle with two Glimpses resolved. I think I'll put three or four in the sideboard.
"I don't mean to be critical. I personally dislike the Chalice combo, but lots of people play it. Or played it - Cherri0s isn't exactly tearing up the legacy scene these days in any build. It's a fun deck though! I also didn't realize you can draw off subsequent Chalice Of The Voids, so that's a little better than I though."
Im not sure what you mean by subsequent Chalice of the voids. If one is in play, you can not cast another because it would be countered.
I personally dislike the Chalice plan immensely, because it counters your Lotus Petals, makes Scapegoating impossible, it requires two cards, and it leaves you with no creatures for your Goblin Bushwhacker. If you run it, however, a couple choices I would suggest would be either Dark Rituals and Ad Nauseam, and/or Reaping the Graves, which is basically a 3 mana Scapegoat.
If you can afford them, I like Silnce/Orim's Chant and Xantid Swarm better than Autumn's Veil. Stops shenanigans like Stifle, Mindbreak Trap, etc.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Well im gunna be trying it for a first time this sunday at my local Legacy meta, which is generally a soild group of guys who are there to win. Im planing on bringing it to Grand Prix Worcester/Boston for side events.
"If you can afford them, I like Silnce/Orim's Chant and Xantid Swarm better than Autumn's Veil. Stops shenanigans like Stifle, Mindbreak Trap, etc. "
The problem with that is that i would need to splash white in a deck that runs 6-7 lands or have gg on board, which isnt easy.
Splashing White shouldn't be a problem, since you should be running 4 Land Grants, 4 Lotus Petals, and at least a couple Wild Cantors (especially in the Chalice version, otehrwise how will you make Black mana for Songs?). A single Temple Garden out of the side is usually enough.
Xantid Swarm actually eliminates the problem of needing GG that Autumn's Veil DOES have. You can drop him off a land turn 1, and win turn 2 off that land. Remember that against control, you shouldn't be aiming for speed unless you're sure you have it. Let them expend some resources, sculpt your hand to fight through Forces. Hell, drop a few Memnites and start swinging. You'd be surprised how many games I've won off of two 1/1s.
Best of luck tomorrow!!
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
For those who aren't running the Multani's Presence combo main, I still suggest that you should run it in the side in case of opposing Chalices, and those that run the song of the damned, what is your answer to Leyline of void?
"My blade slices the air, sakura petals scatter, crimson blossoms appear on the ground..."
Autumn, the season of the Harvest and Falling Leaves... Song of an unreachable dream...
Wait so u have mutliple Multani's Presence in play, and a chalice at 0, if you play a cherri0, you only get one draw and not all triggers?
No, multiple Multani's Presence would trigger multiple draws. What I'm saying is that if you play a Chalice for 0 when you already have a Chalice in play that the second one will be countered and also trigger a card draw (per each Multani's Presence on the board).
Essentislly I'm saying that drawing extra Chalice Of The Voids mid combo still draws cards.
For those who aren't running the Multani's Presence combo main, I still suggest that you should run it in the side in case of opposing Chalices, and those that run the song of the damned, what is your answer to Leyline of void?
Also, what about against Leyline of Sanctity?
I run Ingot Chewer to deal with opposing Chalices. Much cleaner.
Chalice versions would have to run Wispmare to deal with Leylines.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Those are both good answers that ill look into, you also get to draw off of glimps if you use the evoke cost =D. I run a sideboard of 4 signle pest, 3 beastmaster assension, and a handfull of land. So if you need to you can change the deck up.
I did not acually play the deck this weekend, I missplaced my Tendrles of agony and no one had one. Though i did test play against one of my freinds RUG deck, it did not go very well but i did learn a few things.
Good comments, all.
I'd like to point out that most of the probabilities I listed were derived using an incorrect equation (which I discovered when I worked out a 120% to draw a mana source...). The correct probabilities are as follows:
40% to open with Glimpse in a deck without Probes; 42.3% in a deck with Probes. (The rest of the probabilities are all assumed to be in Probe decks)
62.9% to open with either Glimpse OR Gamble
53.2% to open with Glimpse OR Gamble AND 2 mana sources
52.4% to open with Glimpse OR Gamble AND 2 mana sources AND 3 0-drop creatures (99.5% to open with one 0-drop, 98.5% to open with 3 0-drops)
More number crunching to come when I have time =)
You might want to check your math:
My math says you have a 60% chance of at least one Glimpse or gamble, (4 and 3 right? 65% if it's 4 and 4.) This makes your Success rate with gamble just over 25%
Also, you don't want to probe for a win, you want to probe to get past a stall. A hand with six Good Stuff and one probe won't be a keeper, unless you're willing to bank on a 13% chance to not-whiff. (goes up to 25% if you're on the draw.)
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
For those who aren't running the Multani's Presence combo main, I still suggest that you should run it in the side in case of opposing Chalices, and those that run the song of the damned, what is your answer to Leyline of void?
Also, what about against Leyline of Sanctity?
I'd be scared they chalice for 1, not 0. If they chalice for 1 you basically run a bunch of guys that don't do anything and spells that just get countered.
Ingot Chewer and Wispmare are great answers to any chalice or leyline answers, their cmc are too high for calice and decks that run those general do not counterspells.
I have acally been thinking it it seems that Enlighten tutor may be a good card in my deck. It tutors up either piece of the combo, so if you run 2, its essencally 6 of each.
You might want to check your math:
My math says you have a 60% chance of at least one Glimpse or gamble, (4 and 3 right? 65% if it's 4 and 4.) This makes your Success rate with gamble just over 25%
Also, you don't want to probe for a win, you want to probe to get past a stall. A hand with six Good Stuff and one probe won't be a keeper, unless you're willing to bank on a 13% chance to not-whiff. (goes up to 25% if you're on the draw.)
The Probe numbers are slightly misleading, yes, since they assume that Probe essentially gives you a 56 card deck, when in fact you have to resolve mulligans before deciding whether to use Probes.
However, A hand with 2 Probes, or a Probe and a Land Grant, is perfectly keepable in my eyes, unless you fear a turn one win from the opponent. This hand has a 45% chance of seeing Glimpse or a Tutor by turn 3.
I'm also not sure what you mean by the "success rate with Gamble". If you mean the success rate of using Gamble and not discarding the card you need, that it always equal to x/n, where x is the number of cards you don't mind discarding, and n is the number of cards in your hand. Other statistics, such as the likelihood of having Gamble in the opening hand, don't affect this number at all.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
However, A hand with 2 Probes, or a Probe and a Land Grant, is perfectly keepable in my eyes, unless you fear a turn one win from the opponent. This hand has a 45% chance of seeing Glimpse or a Tutor by turn 3.
On the play: (2 draws+probe[s])
42% chance on double probe hand. (3 from a sample of 53)
36% chance on a probe + grant (2 from a sample of 52)
On the draw: (3 draws+probe[s])
52% chance on a double probe hand. (5 from a sample of 53)
42% chance on a probe + grant. (4 from a sample of 52)
These odds, to me, are only passable while on the draw.
I'm also not sure what you mean by the "success rate with Gamble". If you mean the success rate of using Gamble and not discarding the card you need, that it always equal to x/n, where x is the number of cards you don't mind discarding, and n is the number of cards in your hand. Other statistics, such as the likelihood of having Gamble in the opening hand, don't affect this number at all.
The chances are the odds you will have gable in your hand, and that it won't result in it's own failure. This number is misleading, since for it to even be relevent you have to not have access to glimpse (a condition that lowers the chances of the event even happening)
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
The chances are the odds you will have gable in your hand, and that it won't result in it's own failure. This number is misleading, since for it to even be relevent you have to not have access to glimpse (a condition that lowers the chances of the event even happening)
Right, but as I said, the odds of having a Gamble and the odds of Gamble discarding the card you need, are not related. Gamble's success rate is always based on the number of cards in your hand (usually in the 80-85% range). Even if you're trying to calculate the number of hypothetical games where Gamble works, the rate is based on your hand. If you think about it, taking into account the chance of having a Gamble in hand doesn't really make sense: in the hands where you don't have Gamble, Gamble isn't "failing", so there's no math to be done. You have to ONLY take into account the hands in which you already have Gamble.
By the way, rstevens, how did your Legacy event go?
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Right, but as I said, the odds of having a Gamble and the odds of Gamble discarding the card you need, are not related. Gamble's success rate is always based on the number of cards in your hand (usually in the 80-85% range). Even if you're trying to calculate the number of hypothetical games where Gamble works, the rate is based on your hand. If you think about it, taking into account the chance of having a Gamble in hand doesn't really make sense: in the hands where you don't have Gamble, Gamble isn't "failing", so there's no math to be done. You have to ONLY take into account the hands in which you already have Gamble.
Gamble only has value when I don't have glimpse, otherwise it just wastes space in my hand, or blanks my draws. A card that will only have any value 25% of the time is not worth banking on.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
I missplaced my tendrls and could not find another one for the event, im acaully working on a slighly different verson, hopfully making it more consistant.
Do once you have the chalice and Multani's Presence combo going you have 35 0 drops that will get countered and that will provide a draw/ storm count. with the 2 Enlightened Tutor it essentially gives you 6 of each combo peice. Have a glimps in hand you may end up fizzling easier, but the draw advantage you get will get you the rest of the combo and give you a board presents, IE allow you to survive long enough.
Now the only problem i forsee with the deck is a Force of Will on the songs of the damned. Not in the sb im going to run silence or somthing along that line to ensure that it can not be countered.
I acually like Autumn's veil instead of FOW now becuase you play it and they NEED to counter it or they loose. or you can bait the counter out with it then do something else, like drop a Beastmaster Ascension
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
I don't like this combo because it requires two cards to activate, counters your Petals, and leaves your library loaded with three dead Chalices while you combo out. I prefer running just Glimpse Of Nature with extra tutors - the tutors can at least get something good while you're going off.
Personally I only side in protection. If I expect to need it main I usually play a different deck.
Best of luck!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
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:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
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Without Multani's Presence/Chalice Of The Void you wont have many critters in the yard for Songs Of The Damned. I'd run neither or both. Conversely I wouldn't run Goblin Bushwhacker with that combo as that strategy requires creatures not in the yard.
Yeah, I like the sound of this card - I'd almost maindeck it! I like the thought of targeting Glimpse Of Nature to cast it again - we rarely fizzle with two Glimpses resolved. I think I'll put three or four in the sideboard.
I also like Summoner's Pact - it becomes mana, a Cherri0, or (if you have one available mana) a filtering cherri0! This is a highly versatile inclusion, and I now need a copy of the card for my deck. Of course Summoner's Pact doesn't play well with Multani's Presence and Chalice Of The Void either.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
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"I don't mean to be critical. I personally dislike the Chalice combo, but lots of people play it. Or played it - Cherri0s isn't exactly tearing up the legacy scene these days in any build. It's a fun deck though! I also didn't realize you can draw off subsequent Chalice Of The Voids, so that's a little better than I though."
Im not sure what you mean by subsequent Chalice of the voids. If one is in play, you can not cast another because it would be countered.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
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No, but they'll get you a card, so at least they're not dead.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
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Wait so u have mutliple Multani's Presence in play, and a chalice at 0, if you play a cherri0, you only get one draw and not all triggers?
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
1 Gamble
2 Personal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Brainfreeze
3 Scapegoat
1 Summoner's Pact
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Stomping Ground
1 Savannah
4 Land Grant
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
3 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
3 Wild Cantor
4 Gitaxian probe
3 Spoils of the Vault
2 Scapegoat
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Grapeshot
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Land Grant
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Phyrexian Walker
3 Shield Sphere
3 Wild Cantor
1 Skyshroud Cutter
I personally dislike the Chalice plan immensely, because it counters your Lotus Petals, makes Scapegoating impossible, it requires two cards, and it leaves you with no creatures for your Goblin Bushwhacker. If you run it, however, a couple choices I would suggest would be either Dark Rituals and Ad Nauseam, and/or Reaping the Graves, which is basically a 3 mana Scapegoat.
If you can afford them, I like Silnce/Orim's Chant and Xantid Swarm better than Autumn's Veil. Stops shenanigans like Stifle, Mindbreak Trap, etc.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
"If you can afford them, I like Silnce/Orim's Chant and Xantid Swarm better than Autumn's Veil. Stops shenanigans like Stifle, Mindbreak Trap, etc. "
The problem with that is that i would need to splash white in a deck that runs 6-7 lands or have gg on board, which isnt easy.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Xantid Swarm actually eliminates the problem of needing GG that Autumn's Veil DOES have. You can drop him off a land turn 1, and win turn 2 off that land. Remember that against control, you shouldn't be aiming for speed unless you're sure you have it. Let them expend some resources, sculpt your hand to fight through Forces. Hell, drop a few Memnites and start swinging. You'd be surprised how many games I've won off of two 1/1s.
Best of luck tomorrow!!
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Also, what about against Leyline of Sanctity?
Standard:
BWB/R Eldrazi AggroBR
Modern:
UMerfolkU
"My blade slices the air, sakura petals scatter, crimson blossoms appear on the ground..."
Autumn, the season of the Harvest and Falling Leaves...
Song of an unreachable dream...
No, multiple Multani's Presence would trigger multiple draws. What I'm saying is that if you play a Chalice for 0 when you already have a Chalice in play that the second one will be countered and also trigger a card draw (per each Multani's Presence on the board).
Essentislly I'm saying that drawing extra Chalice Of The Voids mid combo still draws cards.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
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UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I run Ingot Chewer to deal with opposing Chalices. Much cleaner.
Chalice versions would have to run Wispmare to deal with Leylines.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I did not acually play the deck this weekend, I missplaced my Tendrles of agony and no one had one. Though i did test play against one of my freinds RUG deck, it did not go very well but i did learn a few things.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
You might want to check your math:
My math says you have a 60% chance of at least one Glimpse or gamble, (4 and 3 right? 65% if it's 4 and 4.) This makes your Success rate with gamble just over 25%
Also, you don't want to probe for a win, you want to probe to get past a stall. A hand with six Good Stuff and one probe won't be a keeper, unless you're willing to bank on a 13% chance to not-whiff. (goes up to 25% if you're on the draw.)
I'd be scared they chalice for 1, not 0. If they chalice for 1 you basically run a bunch of guys that don't do anything and spells that just get countered.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
I have acally been thinking it it seems that Enlighten tutor may be a good card in my deck. It tutors up either piece of the combo, so if you run 2, its essencally 6 of each.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
The Probe numbers are slightly misleading, yes, since they assume that Probe essentially gives you a 56 card deck, when in fact you have to resolve mulligans before deciding whether to use Probes.
However, A hand with 2 Probes, or a Probe and a Land Grant, is perfectly keepable in my eyes, unless you fear a turn one win from the opponent. This hand has a 45% chance of seeing Glimpse or a Tutor by turn 3.
I'm also not sure what you mean by the "success rate with Gamble". If you mean the success rate of using Gamble and not discarding the card you need, that it always equal to x/n, where x is the number of cards you don't mind discarding, and n is the number of cards in your hand. Other statistics, such as the likelihood of having Gamble in the opening hand, don't affect this number at all.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
On the play: (2 draws+probe[s])
42% chance on double probe hand. (3 from a sample of 53)
36% chance on a probe + grant (2 from a sample of 52)
On the draw: (3 draws+probe[s])
52% chance on a double probe hand. (5 from a sample of 53)
42% chance on a probe + grant. (4 from a sample of 52)
These odds, to me, are only passable while on the draw.
The chances are the odds you will have gable in your hand, and that it won't result in it's own failure. This number is misleading, since for it to even be relevent you have to not have access to glimpse (a condition that lowers the chances of the event even happening)
Right, but as I said, the odds of having a Gamble and the odds of Gamble discarding the card you need, are not related. Gamble's success rate is always based on the number of cards in your hand (usually in the 80-85% range). Even if you're trying to calculate the number of hypothetical games where Gamble works, the rate is based on your hand. If you think about it, taking into account the chance of having a Gamble in hand doesn't really make sense: in the hands where you don't have Gamble, Gamble isn't "failing", so there's no math to be done. You have to ONLY take into account the hands in which you already have Gamble.
By the way, rstevens, how did your Legacy event go?
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Gamble only has value when I don't have glimpse, otherwise it just wastes space in my hand, or blanks my draws. A card that will only have any value 25% of the time is not worth banking on.
4 crookshank kobolds
4 memnite
4 shiled sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Ornithopter
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Multani's Presence
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Enlightened Tutor
mana producers (10)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
2 wild cantor
1 Songs of the Damned
1 Tendrils of Agony
Mana (6)
4 Misty rainforest
2 savanna
1 Forest
Now the only problem i forsee with the deck is a Force of Will on the songs of the damned. Not in the sb im going to run silence or somthing along that line to ensure that it can not be countered.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb: