Cheeri0s, or Kobold Storm, is a combo deck that uses a turn 1 or 2 Glimpse of Nature and a bunch of 0-cost creatures to keep drawing cards and upping the storm count until you have drawn your win condition and enough mana sources to cast it. It just may be the most straightforward deck in the game, since it every game is almost identical.
Alternatively, some versions use Multani's Presence and Chalice of the Void. Play Presence, play Chalice@0, all your creatures are countered and you draw cards. I find this version inferior for many reasons:
1) You cannot Scapegoat. Scapegoat is probably the best out this deck has to whiffs.
2) You cannot use Goblin Bushwhacker or Beastmaster's Ascension, meaning you straight up die to Leyline of Sanctity.
3) It requires 2 cards to combo off instead of just one.
4) It counters Lotus Petal.
Why should I play Cheeri0s?
One reason, really; it's FUN. I personally believe it may be the most fun deck in existence. Nearly everyone will be interested and amused by it, and many will be in stitches watching you combo out turn 1 game after game and dropping your entire deck.
Aside from fun, it is also unexpected. Nobody plays Cheeri0s at tournaments. They think it's too silly. It's too unreliable. It's not as strong as other Storm decks. Nobody will ever see it coming, and you can pick up a lot of wins that way. The rest of the wins you get from learning the secret tech, and from luck. As a sidenote, Cheeri0s is much more consistent and much more resilient than most people give it credit for. The fact that it only needs one card to win, and that it can produce effectively endless chump blockers to buy time, means that it can usually fight through most resistance and combo out against most clocks.
As a bonus, Cheeri0s is cheap. Glimpse of Nature is $20 each, Personal Tutor is a bit high, and shocklands are a bit expensive, but after those, you can build it for virtually nothing. Most cards in here are worth less than the cardboard they were printed on, and we run many "bad" cards that are actually really good situationally (like, in our situations).
How do I play Cheeri0s?
As I said, drop Glimpse and start playing creatures. You should always, always, always mulligan to Glimpse, or a tutor for it. The exception is that if you have 2 Land Grants, 2 or more Probes, or some combination of the two, you can keep that 7, as you will thin the deck enough to make drawing Glimpse by turn 4 (when Zoo kills you) likely.
Wow. That seems stupidly easy. Is there really nothing else to it?
There are some small technical subtleties. For instance, against anything except Dredge or Belcher, you want to be on the draw. Those decks you must race, but everything else, the extra card is extremely important. Against aggro, the extra turn clock won't matter, since you'll draw the same number of cards before you die (1 for being on the draw, or on the play, 1 more for that turn where they didn't kill you yet). Against control, you actually improve your odds even more, since they have one less draw that might be Force of Will, and you have one more draw that might be combotastic.
Also, always remember to Land Grant before drawing any cards. This way, the deck will be slightly thinner for your Gitaxian Probe or 0-drop. Every .01% matters in this deck, because it is all about odds.
Don't, against anybody, try to combo out with less than 3 0-drops unless you can double or triple Glimpse that turn.
(If you run it) Save your Summoner's Pact. Yes, it thins out the deck, but it has 2 targets; Cantor, and ESG. Once you draw one of them (or need one, for instance, an ESG to double Glimpse or a Cantor to play off your land), you fetch the one you need. As an example, holding Pact until you draw Cantor, then using it to fetch ESG and play Cantor.
Never forget that you can sac your Cantor to play another Cantor. Never Scapegoat until you have no more 0-drops in hand, and always play the 0-drops slowly at first in case you get the chance to double Glimpse before playing the rest of them. Remember that ESG only pays for Cantor and Glimpse, and dual lands may have one or two more options (depending on which you use). So, using an ESG or land to play Cantor, increases your options. Do this before using a Lotus Petal or another Cantor, if you can. Always sac Petals for Cantors first, in case you hit rock bottom and must try to swing with 1/1's (or if you are going to use Bushwhacker).
Know when to go off turn 1, and when to wait until turn 2. I can't tell you how to know, it will only come from playing the deck many times and getting a feel for it.
I don't like combo decks, they're pretty boring and unreliable.
4x Land Grant: Ups Storm count, thins your deck, costs nothing. Seems good.
0-4x Fetchlands: More expensive, don't count towards storm, and are dead mid-combo, but cannot be countered like Land Grant, and don't tell your opponent, "Oh, by the way, here's my plan"
2-4x Elvish Spirit Guide: Free mana. I prefer to run fewer of these and more Petals, since Petals are almost always better, and I can fetch ESGs anyway.
3-4x Lotus Petal: Free mana!!
1-3x G/x Dual Lands: Breeding Pool and Stomping Ground are the ones I run. Shocklands and real Duals are almost identical here; the Shock will almost never matter. You can use real Duals if you want, or stick with the cheap ones. Which ones you use, and how many, depend on personal preference and what other cards you are using for support. Murmuring Bosk: Always comes in tapped, but if you're playing Black, it supports all three necessary colors and can be fetched with Land Grants and Fetches. Dryad Arbor: For turn 2 and 3 wins, especially in decks running BMA or Bushwhacker, it can be alright. Probably best in decks running Cradle. Crop Rotation: Specifcally for Cradle decks, allowing insane mana production mid-combo. Tinder Wall: Best in versions running MD Bushwhacker; it's a Wild Cantor that ramps instead of fixing mana. RR can be hard to use in this deck, except maybe for double Wild Cantor or when you are winning.
3-4x Wild Cantor: One mana Manamorphose that can also be played early to make turn 2-3 wins easier. Cool.
0-4x Manamorphose: If you want it. I've never liked it, since 2 mana is much harder to reach.
0-4x Summoner's Pact: It fetches ESG, so it's like running more of them while also upping Storm Count, thinning your deck, and being capable of grabbing Cantor if you need one. Be very careful, though, and don't use it unless you know you can commit to winning.
0-2x Gaea's Cradle: Usually for BMA versions. It makes mana. A LOT of mana.
The Support
4x Gitaxian Probe: Check for Force, cantrip, up storm, all for 2 life. 4-of, no questions asked.
2-4x Scapegoat: "W: Draw 12 cards". Seems legit. I wouldn't run more than 3 personally, as it's another noncreature to draw into.
2-3x Personal Tutor: Tutors Glimpse for a next turn win. Can also find Probe, Land Grant, or another Tutor...I guess.
0-3x Gamble: A one-mana, unconditional, tutor to hand. Yes. It finds anything, can save you mid-combo, unlike P. Tutor, and keeps the deck FUN. Yes, I have Gambled with one other card in hand, in a tournament match, to keep from whiffing. 50% isn't actually terrible odds, and on turn 1 or 2, it's usually more like 80-90%. Spoils of the Vault: Unconditional, instant speed, tutor to hand for one mana. Yeah, it may kill you, but isn't this deck all about the adrenaline rush?
There are a lot of options here. In general, you will pick two and run with them.
1x Grapeshot: Storm count is the name of the game.
1x Brain Freeze: Requires a lower Storm count than Grapeshot, but is a bad idea against Show and Tell decks.
1x Goblin Bushwhacker: Gets through Leyline, can be played many turns after whiffing, without even comboing off.
1x Beastmaster Ascension: Drop it and start swinging, no combo required.
1x Signal Pest: Probably in conjunction with Bushwhacker or BMA, drop it early and build up for huge swings.
1x Last-Ditch Effort: One mana, instant speed Grapeshot that is easier for your opponent to counter. Honestly, though, if your opponent has counters, you wouldn't have combo'd out. Also, can save you after whiffs when trying to rebuild hope; draw into it, and you don't Glimpses, Scapegoats, nothing. Just win out of nowhere.
1x Elixir of Immortality: How is this a wincon, you ask? Well, you have 4 Petals, and the ability to draw lots of cards. So...use all 4 Petals, use Elixir, float one mana. Draw them all back again. Infinite mana. Run with Banefire, or, if you feel silly, Memnarch.
Other Options
Cabal Therapy: You can run a Bayou/Overgrown Tomb to support this discard spell; turn one, use it naming Force, and if you can't flash it back later, you lost anyway. Infernal Plunge: If you are more red-centric in your build, and feel you are having mana issues. Simian Spirit Guide: Can't be fetched by Pact, and can't cast Glimpse, but can solve the problem of having an opening hand Gamble and no red sources, and can be useful if you choose to run Plunge. Noxious Revival: Set up your next draw, reclaim Glimpse after a Force, etc. Can be very good. Also tech against Surgical Extraction, which I've recently discovered HURTS. Naturalize: 2 mana is a lot, but this deck literally, literally cannot win against Chalice of the Void at 1. Unless you are running BMA, and spend a lot of time dropping 0-drops, you will lose. Street Wraith: Hurts a lot with 4 Probes and Shocklands, doesn't count towards storm, and doesn't peek like Probe. But it is guarenteed card draw, and effectively gives you a 52 card deck to do your math with. Serum Powder: If you really want to go all in. Surgical Extraction: To hit Force or Daze after they use one and make the future that much safer. I'm a little iffy, since it needs one of your spells to be countered first (unless you're playing black for Therapy).
Sideboard Options
Sideboard is almost exclusively about beating control.
0-3x Silence or Orim's Chant: Makes them unable to interact at all as you combo out. Also interrupts other combo decks if timed correctly.
0-3x Autumn's Veil: Essentially identical to Silence, but easier on the colors.
0-3x Overmaster: Sacrifices the ability to protect Scapegoats or double Glimpses, in exchange for being tutorable and cantripping.
1x Goblin Bushwhacker: If you don't play it maindeck, it must be SB, to bring in against Leyline.
0-4x Xantid Swarm: Allows you to combo off protected with only one mana source, unlike Silence/Autumn's Veil, and can draw cards mid-combo (though costing mana hurts)
0-4x Ingot Chewer: Beat Chalice of the Void@1 and draw a card? Sounds good.
0-4x Wispmare: Ingot Chewer, but for Counterbalance! Yay!
You can also run 1-ofs of anything you don't have a full playset MD, and side them in for small tweaks based on what you feel are being problem areas, for instance, siding in a third ESG if you feel mana is an issue.
A few X-drops in the sideboard can also deal pretty handily with Dredge's Bridges, and slowing them down that much should be crippling, since we are so much faster already.
This deck runs the most dangerous tutor, maindeck BMA, and sideboard Cabal Therapies. It eschews 4 of the Kobolds for the 4 Probes, which are somewhat dangerous with Spoils, but too good to pass up with Therapy.
This is the list I most commonly play in tournaments. It is slightly slower than average, and has only 3 tutors instead of 4. But it has decently consistent Turn 2 wins and is a little safer than other builds.
This is about the fastest version I currently have. 4 Summoner's Pacts give you unbelievable flexibility; you're running +4 0-drops, +4 mana sources, and +4 Cantors for draw+colorfix, all in one slot. This keeps the number of brick-cards to a bare minimum, and when you go, you just keep going until you hit Scapegoat or Glimpse and a second mana. Gamble is dangerous, but does a whole lot here.
Wild cantor over tinder wall? Is the reason the mana or the color fix? Burning wish saw some success in the older builds. It could here as well. However, if you feel gamble is better, by all means, run that.
If you're considering black, the only real reason is cabal therapy. Burning wish takes care of most of what you would want diabolic intent for in red and red already has infernal plunge. It's not quite as good as culling the weak, but the mana, as the deck stands, is more reliable and/or useful.
Really interesting deck.. But I looked on three different web pages, but I can´t find more than 28 0-cost creatures (three types of kobolds, ornithopter , phyrexian walker , mnemite and solar shield - I am not sure with names, btw) ..did I miss something? because if not, how would you fill 4 places here? -Think some signal pests should work in this deck. Adding gitaxian probe would be good defense, and gives you also small card adventage for just 2 lives. Also, I think Multani´s Presence or Autumn´s Veil are good for SB, but don t know your meta..
Really interesting deck.. But I looked on three different web pages, but I can´t find more than 28 0-cost creatures
You could also use creatures with cmc x. Chimeric Mass for instance.
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UGW Hunting Grounds ||||||||||||||||||||||| URWBG Pauper Cube GB Death Cloud ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| R Peasant Kuldotha W Soul Sisters ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| U Pauper Faeninja UR Affinity |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| G Ezuri EDH B Pox |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| R Norin EDH
Why run a 3/3 split of ESG and petal? Petal is simply strictly better since in my experience no one has ever countered a lotus petal. Ever. Nor should they, since petal isn't what they're worried about rather they're worried about what petal will cast.
I agree with personal tutor over gamble. Gamble is luck based. Tutor is not. And it's unlikely even if you keep the glimpse you gamble for that you have the mana to cast glimpse that turn unless you waited till turn 2 to gamble with both lands in play.
Wild cantor is better than tinder wall because it colorfixes. Double R isn't really needed at all in here.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I've seen a similar deck use Multani's Presence + Chalice of void at zero. Perhaps you could add this engine in addition to glimpse for higher percentage of good hands?
@an honest man: chimeric mass isn't a creature and wouldn't activate glimpse, but there are some other x costed creatures.
Haha, oh wow. Yeah...totally overlooked that.
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UGW Hunting Grounds ||||||||||||||||||||||| URWBG Pauper Cube GB Death Cloud ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| R Peasant Kuldotha W Soul Sisters ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| U Pauper Faeninja UR Affinity |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| G Ezuri EDH B Pox |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| R Norin EDH
I've seen a similar deck use Multani's Presence + Chalice of void at zero. Perhaps you could add this engine in addition to glimpse for higher percentage of good hands?
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Gitaxian Probe is already a 4-of, and is great for seeing what might stop you.
I've been playtesting with a singleton Summoner's Pact: it fetches ESG, counts towards storm, and thins my deck. If I keep it, I may drop one ESG for a 4th Petal.
I've been aware of the Chalice/Presence combo, and the two main problems I have with it are that it requires two cards, making it a) harder to assemble, and b) giving you less room in your 7 for mana sources and 0-drops, and also that it makes Scapegoating impossible, and so you have fewer outs to whiffs.
I'd like to point out that most of the probabilities I listed were derived using an incorrect equation (which I discovered when I worked out a 120% to draw a mana source...). The correct probabilities are as follows:
40% to open with Glimpse in a deck without Probes; 42.3% in a deck with Probes. (The rest of the probabilities are all assumed to be in Probe decks)
62.9% to open with either Glimpse OR Gamble
53.2% to open with Glimpse OR Gamble AND 2 mana sources
52.4% to open with Glimpse OR Gamble AND 2 mana sources AND 3 0-drop creatures (99.5% to open with one 0-drop, 98.5% to open with 3 0-drops)
More number crunching to come when I have time =)
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Took this version of the deck to a Legacy Open 5k, and went 4-4. Everyone I talked to agreed it should have been 6-2, and maybe 7-1, but I made several crucial mistakes, like a game loss for accidentally drawing an extra card, and another for forgetting to pay for Pact.
The Angel's Grace in the sideboard was supposed to be Silence, but I could not find any on game day. The deck performed extremely well, with consistent turn 1 and 2 wins, even beating 2 control decks 2-0.
A lot of people were very interested and entertained, many asked how my deck worked, and more were just ecstatic to sit beside me for another round and see it again. Judges asked how I was doing and offered specific technical questions about my deck, and a few would try to patrol around my table so they could watch.
I even managed to get my infinite mana engine going in one game, casting Devil's Play (which was supposed to be Banefire) for 1, and then flashing it back for 19. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to use Memnarch with infinite mana, as the judge was concerned about time and asked me to go ahead and win.
Now, my consideration is to play Overmaster in the sideboard instead of Silence. It has two big things going for it: it cantrips, and it can be fetched with Personal Tutor. It has one serious problem, though; it's red. If I turn 1 Breeding Pool for Tutor, it is very difficult to cast Overmaster turn 2. My thinking, however, is that the matchups where I need this (control) will be slower, and I will have more time to set up my mana. With that in mind, I believe that the cantrip from Overmaster makes it strictly better than Silence or Pact of Negation as combo protection.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Now, my consideration is to play Overmaster in the sideboard instead of Silence. It has two big things going for it: it cantrips, and it can be fetched with Personal Tutor. It has one serious problem, though; it's red. If I turn 1 Breeding Pool for Tutor, it is very difficult to cast Overmaster turn 2. My thinking, however, is that the matchups where I need this (control) will be slower, and I will have more time to set up my mana. With that in mind, I believe that the cantrip from Overmaster makes it strictly better than Silence or Pact of Negation as combo protection.
You've listed a drawback (color) yourself, so it can't be strictly better, although it might be better.
Secondly, it doesn't protect your next spell of the turn. Pact of Negation can protect a Scapegoat by virtue of the counterspell already being used, and Silence can obviously protect it as well. So it's not better on that front either.
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You've listed a drawback (color) yourself, so it can't be strictly better, although it might be better.
Secondly, it doesn't protect your next spell of the turn.Pact of Negation can protect a Scapegoat by virtue of the counterspell already being used, and Silence can obviously protect it as well. So it's not better on that front either.
Actually, that's exactly what it does. "The next instant or sorcery spell you cast this turn can't be countered by spells or abilities." I cast it, and it protects my next spell that turn (Glimpse).
The color is a drawback, but the same drawback exists for Silence (turn 2 Silence off Savannah), so that Silence is equal in that respect, it is equal in the protection element, and it is strictly worse in that it does not cantrip and that I can tutor for Overmaster but not Silence.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Actually, that's exactly what it does. "The next instant or sorcery spell you cast this turn can't be countered by spells or abilities." I cast it, and it protects my next spell that turn (Glimpse).
The color is a drawback, but the same drawback exists for Silence (turn 2 Silence off Savannah), so that Silence is equal in that respect, it is equal in the protection element, and it is strictly worse in that it does not cantrip and that I can tutor for Overmaster but not Silence.
No, no, no. You're misinterpreting. My usage of the word "next" must be confusing you. Overmaster protects a spell, but not the next one after that. So, for example, Overmaster will prevent Glimpse of Nature from being countered, but won't prevent a later counter on Scapegoat.
In the terminology I was trying to use, Glimpse is the spell you most want to protect, and Scapegoat is the next spell after that.
In this respect, Overmaster's protection ability is worse than that of Silence or Pact of Negation, since each of these can protect multiple spells from a single counter (by preventing it all turn or using it up).
Edit: Your use of "strictly better" is confusing. The phrase (as a phrase, and not two random words that simply happen to be juxtaposed) means that one thing has all the positive capabilities of another thing and either fewer negative attributes or more positive attributes. This doesn't apply to Overmaster and Silence, in either direction. However, it does apply to Orim's Chant and Silence, since Chant is always as good as Silence and sometimes better.
Given this list and your comments about availability of cards, what would it look like with no restrictions on money? I'm guessing that the shocks would become duals. Perhaps the Gamble would become a third Personal Tutor?
Care to offer a run down of matches and sideboarding from the event? If not, general notes on matchups?
From what I can tell, the infinite mana engine involves looping through your deck with Elixir of Immortality. Am I missing something?
How was Brain Freeze as a win condition? Would you have preferred to be a second copy of Grapeshot? Looks like a blast to play. I'll have to put it together and take it for a spin.
@ajfirecracker: I know what strictly better means. I am applying it to Overmaster and Silence/Chant based on the specific circumstances of the combo. For instance, a kicked Chant will never be relevant in this deck, since there will rarely, if ever, be a situation where you wish to stop them attacking, and you will virtually never both be in that situation AND have double white open.
Anyways, point being, when only considering this deck and the circumstances it will produce, Overmaster becomes strictly better. There are 2 things that they need to do: Either draw out a counterspell, or make Glimpse uncounterable. They both do these things. Silence simply makes Glimpse uncounterable; making Scapegoat uncounterable as well is irrelevant, as nobody will ever counter Scapegoat. They will either counter Overmaster/Silence, or they will hold their counter in case it can stop something bigger (like your wincon, which it can't).
Overmaster makes Glimpse uncounterable; at this point in the analysis, it is equivalent to Silence for all relevant purposes. But it also cantrips, is tutorable, and is in a slightly easier color for us to produce. It has identical function with more positive effects. It is strictly better in this deck.
I know that technically, it is not strictly better in general, or really even comparable since they have different functions outside of Cheeri0s. If the terminology bothers you, I can concede the semantics and simply say that it is generally better for Cheei0s. Also, since Overmaster is tutorable, it probably doesn't even matter, since I can feasibly run 1 Overmaster and 2-3 Silence from the sideboard =P
@manaman: Actually, the availability issues were not money, but actual availability; nobody had Silences to sell or trade before the tourney started. This is very, very close to an optimal build of this particular version, and even when optimized completely, it would not cost much more.
Shocklands are technically suboptimal, but even with all the money I needed, I would still use them, because the shock will never, ever matter. I intentionally run 2 Tutors/1 Gamble because of a) Turn 1 Stomping Ground-->Gamble, and b) The slightly different purposes; Personal Tutor sets you up for next turn, Gamble can save you if you are whiffing right now.
You are correct about the infinite mana engine. 4 Lotus Petals+Elixir=1 mana, play more 0-drops, draw them again, get another mana. You control the number of cards going back into your deck with Land Grants and Probes so that you can draw the right amount (depending on how many times you Glimpsed).
Brain Freeze is perfectly fine as a wincon; it never failed me. It actually requires a smaller storm count than Grapeshot (17 vs. 19), and can be used in emergencies if you whiff. BF them for about 36-42 cards, chump block endlessly until the rest go. The only thing I would do with BF is maybe use Bushwhacker MD instead.
As for matchups and such, I left a report in the Legacy Tournament Report thread =)
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
@manaman: Actually, the availability issues were not money, but actual availability; nobody had Silences to sell or trade before the tourney started. This is very, very close to an optimal build of this particular version, and even when optimized completely, it would not cost much more.
Shocklands are technically suboptimal, but even with all the money I needed, I would still use them, because the shock will never, ever matter. I intentionally run 2 Tutors/1 Gamble because of a) Turn 1 Stomping Ground-->Gamble, and b) The slightly different purposes; Personal Tutor sets you up for next turn, Gamble can save you if you are whiffing right now.
You are correct about the infinite mana engine. 4 Lotus Petals+Elixir=1 mana, play more 0-drops, draw them again, get another mana. You control the number of cards going back into your deck with Land Grants and Probes so that you can draw the right amount (depending on how many times you Glimpsed).
Brain Freeze is perfectly fine as a wincon; it never failed me. It actually requires a smaller storm count than Grapeshot (17 vs. 19), and can be used in emergencies if you whiff. BF them for about 36-42 cards, chump block endlessly until the rest go. The only thing I would do with BF is maybe use Bushwhacker MD instead.
As for matchups and such, I left a report in the Legacy Tournament Report thread =)
Fair enough. I had a similar problem at SCG Cincy. There were no Silences in the room. I didn't actually need them, so it was ok, but it was a bit frustrating. I assumed that you didn't have the duals or such and dealt with it accordingly. Given your response, I guess it doesn't matter.
In your example of Stomping Ground->Gamble->Glimpse of Nature, is it assumed that there is enough mana to make a Turn 1 win out of it? If there isn't, I don't see any real functional difference between that and Breeding Pool->Personal Tutor->Glimpse of Nature other than putting the card into your hand and not risking losing your target to random discard. I guess Gamble is better mid-combo over the Tutor since you don't have to spend another draw to get what you need. I'm assuming that you are happy with the 2/1 split instead of switching the numbers.
How does your local meta look (if you have one)? If you had a lot of Emrakul based decks around, I assume that the Brain Freeze would become something else?
I took a look at your report in the report thread. It sucks to lose to yourself (or your sleeves). At least you had some fun with the Pox player.
correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't there a version of this deck that utilized a combo of chalice of the void and multani's presence in order to generate card draw with chalice set at 0 and countering the kobolds?
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Anyways, point being, when only considering this deck and the circumstances it will produce, Overmaster becomes strictly better. There are 2 things that they need to do: Either draw out a counterspell, or make Glimpse uncounterable. They both do these things. Silence simply makes Glimpse uncounterable; making Scapegoat uncounterable as well is irrelevant, as nobody will ever counter Scapegoat. They will either counter Overmaster/Silence, or they will hold their counter in case it can stop something bigger (like your wincon, which it can't).
The semantic argument has been done to death, and I don't think aj was trying to browbeat you into submitting that you are using your language incorrectly. I think aj was trying to tell you that you're flat out wrong about your opinion, and you're making assumptions that are untrue. If we apply your belief that "no opponent would counter Scapegoat," then your opinion about Overmaster carries some weight; however, I have no idea why you assume that an opponent wouldn't counter a Scapegoat.
To be frank, you're underestimating your opponents. I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that Overmaster isn't as scary as a Silence. Silence is a must-counter because it means that you can't be interacted with at all--and in a situation where the opponent only has one counter, the choices they have are to burn their counter and hope you're afraid to walk into another counter, or to let Silence resolve and hope you were bluffing or that you fizzle. Note that in every situation where the opponent has one counter their options are completely constricted and they don't really have a way to outplay you. This isn't even considering that Silence prevents your opponent from sandbagging Stifle, Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, a counter for your Lotus Petal/Wild Cantor so you can even cast your win condition, etc. Let's compare this to Overmaster in your deck. You might be able to trick some less experienced players into countering an Overmaster, but I don't think it's ever correct to worry about whatever you intend to resolve. If we assume that I don't have any idea what you're playing and I only have one counter, I'm going to let Overmaster resolve because I don't think it's unfair to assume that you don't have much mana in play, and off the top of my head I can't think of a spell in the game that you could be casting off of the three mana max you have available that ends the game on its own, without you casting another spell I could counter to disrupt you. Furthermore, holding a counter may also lull you into a false sense of security and make you play right into that counter due to how easy it is to incorrectly evaluate Overmaster as a must-counter spell, even though it is probably always correct to let you resolve whatever your mystery spell is for the aforementioned reasons.
Now then, since we've established that good opponents will just let you resolve the Overmaster to cast your Glimpse...it only makes sense to counter your other spells that aren't zero mana guys. I can't make any claims about how popular this deck is outside of the area where I play, but I feel like Storm spells are such an obvious win condition for a deck like this that your opponent won't sit there and let you go off until you find your uncounterable win condition if they can help it. Concerning your opinion on your opponents always letting Scapegoat resolve...It's downright idiotic to let Scapegoat just happen. If I were on the other side of the table, I would assume that Scapegoat means that you're out of gas and that I would make you fizzle if I countered it. Even if you were able to anticipate this and play around it by casting Scapegoat when you still have guys in your hand to continue your combo, you have to realize that Scapegoat basically reads "Draw X cards, where X is one less than the number of creatures you have in play." Something about your opinions or experiences is just completely wrong if you think that this is a spell that an opponent would never think has a high enough impact that they should counter it.
I know you want a disruption spell that you can tutor up, but it is pure folly to assume that Overmaster is in any way better than Silence in this deck other than it being a sorcery.
The semantic argument has been done to death, and I don't think aj was trying to browbeat you into submitting that you are using your language incorrectly. I think aj was trying to tell you that you're flat out wrong about your opinion, and you're making assumptions that are untrue. If we apply your belief that "no opponent would counter Scapegoat," then your opinion about Overmaster carries some weight; however, I have no idea why you assume that an opponent wouldn't counter a Scapegoat.
To be frank, you're underestimating your opponents. I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that Overmaster isn't as scary as a Silence. Silence is a must-counter because it means that you can't be interacted with at all--and in a situation where the opponent only has one counter, the choices they have are to burn their counter and hope you're afraid to walk into another counter, or to let Silence resolve and hope you were bluffing or that you fizzle. Note that in every situation where the opponent has one counter their options are completely constricted and they don't really have a way to outplay you. This isn't even considering that Silence prevents your opponent from sandbagging Stifle, Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, a counter for your Lotus Petal/Wild Cantor so you can even cast your win condition, etc. Let's compare this to Overmaster in your deck. You might be able to trick some less experienced players into countering an Overmaster, but I don't think it's ever correct to worry about whatever you intend to resolve. If we assume that I don't have any idea what you're playing and I only have one counter, I'm going to let Overmaster resolve because I don't think it's unfair to assume that you don't have much mana in play, and off the top of my head I can't think of a spell in the game that you could be casting off of the three mana max you have available that ends the game on its own, without you casting another spell I could counter to disrupt you. Furthermore, holding a counter may also lull you into a false sense of security and make you play right into that counter due to how easy it is to incorrectly evaluate Overmaster as a must-counter spell, even though it is probably always correct to let you resolve whatever your mystery spell is for the aforementioned reasons.
Now then, since we've established that good opponents will just let you resolve the Overmaster to cast your Glimpse...it only makes sense to counter your other spells that aren't zero mana guys. I can't make any claims about how popular this deck is outside of the area where I play, but I feel like Storm spells are such an obvious win condition for a deck like this that your opponent won't sit there and let you go off until you find your uncounterable win condition if they can help it. Concerning your opinion on your opponents always letting Scapegoat resolve...It's downright idiotic to let Scapegoat just happen. If I were on the other side of the table, I would assume that Scapegoat means that you're out of gas and that I would make you fizzle if I countered it. Even if you were able to anticipate this and play around it by casting Scapegoat when you still have guys in your hand to continue your combo, you have to realize that Scapegoat basically reads "Draw X cards, where X is one less than the number of creatures you have in play." Something about your opinions or experiences is just completely wrong if you think that this is a spell that an opponent would never think has a high enough impact that they should counter it.
I know you want a disruption spell that you can tutor up, but it is pure folly to assume that Overmaster is in any way better than Silence in this deck other than it being a sorcery.
That's right, I don't think Overmaster is better in general, not to mention strictly better than Silence.
Actual contributions to the discussion: Autumn's Veil provides a Silence-like blanket of protection while being easier on the mana. Perhaps it's the card we need?
The mana is terrible-ish, but Determined has the cantrip you might want.
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Fair enough. I had a similar problem at SCG Cincy. There were no Silences in the room. I didn't actually need them, so it was ok, but it was a bit frustrating. I assumed that you didn't have the duals or such and dealt with it accordingly. Given your response, I guess it doesn't matter.
In your example of Stomping Ground->Gamble->Glimpse of Nature, is it assumed that there is enough mana to make a Turn 1 win out of it? If there isn't, I don't see any real functional difference between that and Breeding Pool->Personal Tutor->Glimpse of Nature other than putting the card into your hand and not risking losing your target to random discard. I guess Gamble is better mid-combo over the Tutor since you don't have to spend another draw to get what you need. I'm assuming that you are happy with the 2/1 split instead of switching the numbers.
How does your local meta look (if you have one)? If you had a lot of Emrakul based decks around, I assume that the Brain Freeze would become something else?
I took a look at your report in the report thread. It sucks to lose to yourself (or your sleeves). At least you had some fun with the Pox player.
Actually, what I meant with the Stomping Ground-->Gamble example is that if you draw Stomping Ground (or Gamble and a Land Grant), then you simply can't use Tutor, but you can Gamble and go off next turn. Of course, we could simply run 2 Breeding Pools at that point, but then Overmaster would be more difficult out of the side, or Breeding Pool/Savannah, and run Silence.
Also, this deck is built mostly to be fun, and Gamble keeps it very fun (I Gambled for a 0-drop at the tourney with two other cards in hand to keep from whiffing :cool:).
@Namida & aj: I'm assuming nobody will counter Scapegoat because nobody has. I'm not assuming Overmaster to be a must-counter spell, and I know very well that an opponent should counter Scapegoat. Your argument that Silence is better in that it protects Scapegoat is correct, and I was wrong. But I still believe Overmaster is better for this deck by virtue of both tutorability and cantripping.
I would also like to point out that Stifle/Flusterstorm/Mindbreak Trap/countering Petals/Cantors at the end of the combo is irrelevant; I will simply continue comboing out to get my next Petal, or my second wincon.
I only need Scapegoat to save me from whiffs in about 30-40% of games, and much less if I wait a few turns to go off (which I do against control). I don't want my opponent to counter Overmaster; I want it to resolve, and then Glimpse is that mystery spell you talk of that just wins me the game.
I actually misread Veil and thought it was only making creatures uncounterable; I actually do like that much better than Silence. I may then run 2 Veil/1 Overmaster or possibly even 3/1. Determined is unfortunately too expensive, but it is a better version of Overmaster.
@Rogue: Yes, and I dislike that version because it makes Scapegoating impossible, and Scapegoat is probably one of the best outs this deck has to whiffing. It also makes Goblin Bushwhacker and Beastmaster's Ascension unusable wincons from the sideboard, which means you straight up lose to Leyline. Also, it requires two cards in your hand to combo off (Chalice and Presence), while this version only requires Glimpse. Finally, it is impossible to stack effects with Chalice, as you do with Glimpse. While running off Chalice or 1 Glimpse, you are never gaining cards in hand, simply replacing them one at a time. You can easily win this way, but double Glimpsing makes the combo run much smoother.
TL;DR: Yes, I was wrong and Silence is better, but I highly value tutorability and cantrippyness. Yes, Veil is a great suggestion, and thank you. Yes, Presence/Chalice is a thing, but I find it worse in most ways. If they play Blue and you worry they might be Show and Tell (you should have Probed them by now, though), BF first and find out, try to Grapeshot, if it gets MBT'd, side in Bushwhackers or a second Grapeshot.
Local meta here is almost entirely Stoneblade, Delver, and Dredge, with some ANT, High Tide, and Zoo mixed in.
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Autumn's Veil seems like a pretty good counterpoint to Silence since it is on-color. I would be leery of it only because it does nothing to stop Stifle, Trickbind, or Mindbreak Trap. Beyond those 3, I cannot think of any spells that aren't blue counterspells that the deck would care about resolving on the combo turn. Point removal is not really a problem, since you should have already gotten the benefit of the spell (drawn a card). Maybe a Silence, Orim's Chant, or Abeyance from the opponent to prevent you from comboing? What I'm getting at is that I don't there is enough difference between what Silence and Autumn's Veil do to warrant additional lands in the sideboard. I would try Autumn's Veil for a while and see how it goes. serenechaos, how much has Stifle effects caused you trouble?
I agree that Scapegoat is a pretty good reason not to run the Chalice/Presence version of the deck. You have a much better back up plan (aggro with either Bushwacker or Beastmaster's). You have less cards involved in the combo. I'm not sure your argument against stacking effects in the Chalice/Presence version is really valid. If you can resolve a second Multani's Presence, it is as good as a second Glimpse. You will draw twice as many cards as you go along. I think this part is a wash when comparing the 2 decks. Overall, I think that the combo that leaves you with some board presence regardless of if you succeed in resolving your main win condition is going to be better off.
Have you taken a look at the Cherri0s thread over at The Source? Their versions seems to run a lot more land for some reason.
@Rogue: Yes, and I dislike that version because it makes Scapegoating impossible, and Scapegoat is probably one of the best outs this deck has to whiffing. It also makes Goblin Bushwhacker and Beastmaster's Ascension unusable wincons from the sideboard, which means you straight up lose to Leyline. Also, it requires two cards in your hand to combo off (Chalice and Presence), while this version only requires Glimpse. Finally, it is impossible to stack effects with Chalice, as you do with Glimpse. While running off Chalice or 1 Glimpse, you are never gaining cards in hand, simply replacing them one at a time. You can easily win this way, but double Glimpsing makes the combo run much smoother.
Scapegoat makes a hell of a lot more sense. at the same time recently my friend has been talking my ear off about how awesome kobolds is and I tried to remember how the deck worked. for some reason i remembered that combo. but now that i know scapegoat exists i much prefer this style of kobolds over that older combo.
when it comes to attacking with kobolds, I see the advantage in bushwaker giving haste to all creatures, but in the case of beastmaster's ascension can you risk the waiting a turn for the kobolds to lose summoning sickness?
or do you run ascension along side bushwaker?
if not I was wondering what the opinion of signal pest was?
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Yeah, I was mistaken about the multiple Presences. I would, however, also like to point out that Chalice at 0 counters Lotus Petal. Not that it matters, since it seems to be pretty much a consensus =)
I definitely see Autumn's Veil being playable over Silence. My current "optimized" sideboard (not filled with jank just to fill 15 slots) looks something like this:
You'll notice I'm still sporting Savannah/Silence, even though I have 4 Autumn's Veil and 1 Overmaster. I believe Silence has a very specific place, which is against other combo decks. If another deck begins comboing out before me, a well-placed Silence can eat half their hand and leave them struggling to rebuild. Two decks spring to mind in particular for this use: High Tide, which has countermagic, and therefore Silence also doubles as my own protection, and Belcher, which is equally fast and impossible to interact with using any other card in my 75. Silence would be especially devastating to Belcher, and serves two purposes against High Tide, and against some control decks, I may even side in Savannah as a straight-up third land and try to slow roll a much heavier combo turn. Comboing out with 3 lands and Silence cover seems pretty good.
You'll also notice that I still have the Elixir/Banefire wincon in the sideboard. This is purely to entertain myself or troll jerks game 2 or 3. Remember, this deck is almost purely for fun, enjoyment, and trolling people =) [To that end, I got quite a few ragequits on Cockatrice tonight]
I'm also considering Cabal Therapy as a good sideboard option, though moving into Black may be dangerous, since Silence at least lines up with Scapegoat. Hmm, 5 color Cheeri0s ftw? Still, paying 2 Life to Probe before saying Overgrown Tomb, discard those 2 Dazes, flash it back to hit Force, is pretty sick.
Stifle has never been a problem for me. I had one Storm spell stifled in one game, and proceeded to use my other one, and win. An opposing Silence would really hurt, though if cast in response to Silence, it only slows me a turn, and if cast in response to Glimpse, it's just a Force of Will.
I have seen that version, and I can only assume the land count is to have a consistent mana base and easier turn 2 and 3 combos. He is also not running Land Grant, and probably has more lands to support maindeck BMA and Skyshroud Cutter.
@Rogue: You won't see any issues untapping with BMA out, except maybe getting BMA itself removed. You do run it alongside Bushwhacker, but if you don't draw both, or can't use both, you can still handle waiting a turn.
Signal Pest, I never saw. I sided him in against Control; you tend to slowroll into a perfect hand, and that means dropping 0-drops (for Scapegoating or swinging later) instead of discarding them EOT. Signal Pest allows for a decent and ever-increasing clock if you land him with your steady stream of critters. That was the theory, anyway. Like I said, I never played him =P
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I'm glad someone made this, because I want to start running the Moldy Cherrios build that was posted in an article a while ago, but I'm not sure of what a sideboard would look like. Here's the build I want and what sideboard choices I can think of right now. Any help would be appreciated.
Dark Rituals in case they side in graveyard hate to turn off my songs of the damned, Nix and Breeding Pool to shut down any sort of Force of Will or other turn 0 counters, and Mindbreak Trap for other Mindbreak Traps/Flutterstorm. But, that's as far as I go. I'd really like some enchantment bounce/hate in case Leyline of Sanctity or anything turns of my Tendrils. Any ideas? Any other cards I should think about sitting in my board because they can take me down?
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What is Cheeri0s?
Cheeri0s, or Kobold Storm, is a combo deck that uses a turn 1 or 2 Glimpse of Nature and a bunch of 0-cost creatures to keep drawing cards and upping the storm count until you have drawn your win condition and enough mana sources to cast it. It just may be the most straightforward deck in the game, since it every game is almost identical.
Alternatively, some versions use Multani's Presence and Chalice of the Void. Play Presence, play Chalice@0, all your creatures are countered and you draw cards. I find this version inferior for many reasons:
1) You cannot Scapegoat. Scapegoat is probably the best out this deck has to whiffs.
2) You cannot use Goblin Bushwhacker or Beastmaster's Ascension, meaning you straight up die to Leyline of Sanctity.
3) It requires 2 cards to combo off instead of just one.
4) It counters Lotus Petal.
Why should I play Cheeri0s?
One reason, really; it's FUN. I personally believe it may be the most fun deck in existence. Nearly everyone will be interested and amused by it, and many will be in stitches watching you combo out turn 1 game after game and dropping your entire deck.
Aside from fun, it is also unexpected. Nobody plays Cheeri0s at tournaments. They think it's too silly. It's too unreliable. It's not as strong as other Storm decks. Nobody will ever see it coming, and you can pick up a lot of wins that way. The rest of the wins you get from learning the secret tech, and from luck. As a sidenote, Cheeri0s is much more consistent and much more resilient than most people give it credit for. The fact that it only needs one card to win, and that it can produce effectively endless chump blockers to buy time, means that it can usually fight through most resistance and combo out against most clocks.
As a bonus, Cheeri0s is cheap. Glimpse of Nature is $20 each, Personal Tutor is a bit high, and shocklands are a bit expensive, but after those, you can build it for virtually nothing. Most cards in here are worth less than the cardboard they were printed on, and we run many "bad" cards that are actually really good situationally (like, in our situations).
How do I play Cheeri0s?
As I said, drop Glimpse and start playing creatures. You should always, always, always mulligan to Glimpse, or a tutor for it. The exception is that if you have 2 Land Grants, 2 or more Probes, or some combination of the two, you can keep that 7, as you will thin the deck enough to make drawing Glimpse by turn 4 (when Zoo kills you) likely.
Wow. That seems stupidly easy. Is there really nothing else to it?
There are some small technical subtleties. For instance, against anything except Dredge or Belcher, you want to be on the draw. Those decks you must race, but everything else, the extra card is extremely important. Against aggro, the extra turn clock won't matter, since you'll draw the same number of cards before you die (1 for being on the draw, or on the play, 1 more for that turn where they didn't kill you yet). Against control, you actually improve your odds even more, since they have one less draw that might be Force of Will, and you have one more draw that might be combotastic.
Also, always remember to Land Grant before drawing any cards. This way, the deck will be slightly thinner for your Gitaxian Probe or 0-drop. Every .01% matters in this deck, because it is all about odds.
Don't, against anybody, try to combo out with less than 3 0-drops unless you can double or triple Glimpse that turn.
(If you run it) Save your Summoner's Pact. Yes, it thins out the deck, but it has 2 targets; Cantor, and ESG. Once you draw one of them (or need one, for instance, an ESG to double Glimpse or a Cantor to play off your land), you fetch the one you need. As an example, holding Pact until you draw Cantor, then using it to fetch ESG and play Cantor.
Never forget that you can sac your Cantor to play another Cantor. Never Scapegoat until you have no more 0-drops in hand, and always play the 0-drops slowly at first in case you get the chance to double Glimpse before playing the rest of them. Remember that ESG only pays for Cantor and Glimpse, and dual lands may have one or two more options (depending on which you use). So, using an ESG or land to play Cantor, increases your options. Do this before using a Lotus Petal or another Cantor, if you can. Always sac Petals for Cantors first, in case you hit rock bottom and must try to swing with 1/1's (or if you are going to use Bushwhacker).
Know when to go off turn 1, and when to wait until turn 2. I can't tell you how to know, it will only come from playing the deck many times and getting a feel for it.
I don't like combo decks, they're pretty boring and unreliable.
Ok. Don't play Cheeri0s.
So, now we get into the deck itself.
Card Choices
The Combo
OR
4x Multani's Presence
4x Chalice of the Void
The Mana
0-4x Fetchlands: More expensive, don't count towards storm, and are dead mid-combo, but cannot be countered like Land Grant, and don't tell your opponent, "Oh, by the way, here's my plan"
2-4x Elvish Spirit Guide: Free mana. I prefer to run fewer of these and more Petals, since Petals are almost always better, and I can fetch ESGs anyway.
3-4x Lotus Petal: Free mana!!
1-3x G/x Dual Lands: Breeding Pool and Stomping Ground are the ones I run. Shocklands and real Duals are almost identical here; the Shock will almost never matter. You can use real Duals if you want, or stick with the cheap ones. Which ones you use, and how many, depend on personal preference and what other cards you are using for support.
Murmuring Bosk: Always comes in tapped, but if you're playing Black, it supports all three necessary colors and can be fetched with Land Grants and Fetches.
Dryad Arbor: For turn 2 and 3 wins, especially in decks running BMA or Bushwhacker, it can be alright. Probably best in decks running Cradle.
Crop Rotation: Specifcally for Cradle decks, allowing insane mana production mid-combo.
Tinder Wall: Best in versions running MD Bushwhacker; it's a Wild Cantor that ramps instead of fixing mana. RR can be hard to use in this deck, except maybe for double Wild Cantor or when you are winning.
3-4x Wild Cantor: One mana Manamorphose that can also be played early to make turn 2-3 wins easier. Cool.
0-4x Manamorphose: If you want it. I've never liked it, since 2 mana is much harder to reach.
0-4x Summoner's Pact: It fetches ESG, so it's like running more of them while also upping Storm Count, thinning your deck, and being capable of grabbing Cantor if you need one. Be very careful, though, and don't use it unless you know you can commit to winning.
0-2x Gaea's Cradle: Usually for BMA versions. It makes mana. A LOT of mana.
The Support
2-4x Scapegoat: "W: Draw 12 cards". Seems legit. I wouldn't run more than 3 personally, as it's another noncreature to draw into.
2-3x Personal Tutor: Tutors Glimpse for a next turn win. Can also find Probe, Land Grant, or another Tutor...I guess.
0-3x Gamble: A one-mana, unconditional, tutor to hand. Yes. It finds anything, can save you mid-combo, unlike P. Tutor, and keeps the deck FUN. Yes, I have Gambled with one other card in hand, in a tournament match, to keep from whiffing. 50% isn't actually terrible odds, and on turn 1 or 2, it's usually more like 80-90%.
Spoils of the Vault: Unconditional, instant speed, tutor to hand for one mana. Yeah, it may kill you, but isn't this deck all about the adrenaline rush?
The Cereal
4x Ornithopter: He can block fliers. Auto 4-of.
4x Shield Sphere: He can wall for quite some time.
4x Phyrexian Walker
4x Crimson Kobolds
4x Crookshank Kobolds
4x Kobolds of Kher Keep
0-4x Skyshroud Cutter: A free creature if you've got a land out, and it can be fetched with Summoner's Pact. I usually run 1-2 since he isn't always free, just to make Pact pull triple duty as a makeshift Cheeri0.
0-4x Shifting Wall: If you feel like you don't have enough 0-drops to go off consistently.
0-4x Phyrexian Marauder
The Win
There are a lot of options here. In general, you will pick two and run with them.
1x Brain Freeze: Requires a lower Storm count than Grapeshot, but is a bad idea against Show and Tell decks.
1x Goblin Bushwhacker: Gets through Leyline, can be played many turns after whiffing, without even comboing off.
1x Beastmaster Ascension: Drop it and start swinging, no combo required.
1x Signal Pest: Probably in conjunction with Bushwhacker or BMA, drop it early and build up for huge swings.
1x Last-Ditch Effort: One mana, instant speed Grapeshot that is easier for your opponent to counter. Honestly, though, if your opponent has counters, you wouldn't have combo'd out. Also, can save you after whiffs when trying to rebuild hope; draw into it, and you don't Glimpses, Scapegoats, nothing. Just win out of nowhere.
1x Elixir of Immortality: How is this a wincon, you ask? Well, you have 4 Petals, and the ability to draw lots of cards. So...use all 4 Petals, use Elixir, float one mana. Draw them all back again. Infinite mana. Run with Banefire, or, if you feel silly, Memnarch.
Other Options
Infernal Plunge: If you are more red-centric in your build, and feel you are having mana issues.
Simian Spirit Guide: Can't be fetched by Pact, and can't cast Glimpse, but can solve the problem of having an opening hand Gamble and no red sources, and can be useful if you choose to run Plunge.
Noxious Revival: Set up your next draw, reclaim Glimpse after a Force, etc. Can be very good. Also tech against Surgical Extraction, which I've recently discovered HURTS.
Naturalize: 2 mana is a lot, but this deck literally, literally cannot win against Chalice of the Void at 1. Unless you are running BMA, and spend a lot of time dropping 0-drops, you will lose.
Street Wraith: Hurts a lot with 4 Probes and Shocklands, doesn't count towards storm, and doesn't peek like Probe. But it is guarenteed card draw, and effectively gives you a 52 card deck to do your math with.
Serum Powder: If you really want to go all in.
Surgical Extraction: To hit Force or Daze after they use one and make the future that much safer. I'm a little iffy, since it needs one of your spells to be countered first (unless you're playing black for Therapy).
Sideboard Options
0-3x Silence or Orim's Chant: Makes them unable to interact at all as you combo out. Also interrupts other combo decks if timed correctly.
0-3x Autumn's Veil: Essentially identical to Silence, but easier on the colors.
0-3x Overmaster: Sacrifices the ability to protect Scapegoats or double Glimpses, in exchange for being tutorable and cantripping.
1x Goblin Bushwhacker: If you don't play it maindeck, it must be SB, to bring in against Leyline.
0-4x Xantid Swarm: Allows you to combo off protected with only one mana source, unlike Silence/Autumn's Veil, and can draw cards mid-combo (though costing mana hurts)
0-4x Ingot Chewer: Beat Chalice of the Void@1 and draw a card? Sounds good.
0-4x Wispmare: Ingot Chewer, but for Counterbalance! Yay!
You can also run 1-ofs of anything you don't have a full playset MD, and side them in for small tweaks based on what you feel are being problem areas, for instance, siding in a third ESG if you feel mana is an issue.
A few X-drops in the sideboard can also deal pretty handily with Dredge's Bridges, and slowing them down that much should be crippling, since we are so much faster already.
Sample Decklists [UPDATED]
Black Cheeri0s
4 Noxious Revival
4 Scapegoat
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Grapeshot
1 Beastmaster Ascension
4 Lotus Petal
3 Land Grant
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
3 Wild Cantor
3 Shield Sphere
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Xantid Swarm
7 ???
This deck runs the most dangerous tutor, maindeck BMA, and sideboard Cabal Therapies. It eschews 4 of the Kobolds for the 4 Probes, which are somewhat dangerous with Spoils, but too good to pass up with Therapy.
Plain Cheeri0s
4 Noxious Revival
4 Scapegoat
2 Personal Tutor
1 Gamble
1 Grapeshot
1 Brain Freeze
3 Summoner's Pact
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
3 Wild Cantor
2 Shield Sphere
1 Skyshroud Cutter
This is the list I most commonly play in tournaments. It is slightly slower than average, and has only 3 tutors instead of 4. But it has decently consistent Turn 2 wins and is a little safer than other builds.
Balls to the Wall Cheeri0s
4 Gamble
4 Noxious Revival
4 Scapegoat
1 Grapeshot
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Lotus Petal
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Land Grant
2 Wild Cantor
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
1 Skyshroud Cutter
This is about the fastest version I currently have. 4 Summoner's Pacts give you unbelievable flexibility; you're running +4 0-drops, +4 mana sources, and +4 Cantors for draw+colorfix, all in one slot. This keeps the number of brick-cards to a bare minimum, and when you go, you just keep going until you hit Scapegoat or Glimpse and a second mana. Gamble is dangerous, but does a whole lot here.
Banner from Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio Thank You, Ace! http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=451747
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Burning wish saw some success in the older builds. It could here as well. However, if you feel gamble is better, by all means, run that.
If you're considering black, the only real reason is cabal therapy. Burning wish takes care of most of what you would want diabolic intent for in red and red already has infernal plunge. It's not quite as good as culling the weak, but the mana, as the deck stands, is more reliable and/or useful.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
You could also use creatures with cmc x. Chimeric Mass for instance.
GB Death Cloud ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| R Peasant Kuldotha
W Soul Sisters ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| U Pauper Faeninja
UR Affinity |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| G Ezuri EDH
B Pox |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| R Norin EDH
I agree with personal tutor over gamble. Gamble is luck based. Tutor is not. And it's unlikely even if you keep the glimpse you gamble for that you have the mana to cast glimpse that turn unless you waited till turn 2 to gamble with both lands in play.
Wild cantor is better than tinder wall because it colorfixes. Double R isn't really needed at all in here.
Currently Playing:
Retired
@an honest man: chimeric mass isn't a creature and wouldn't activate glimpse, but there are some other x costed creatures: shifting wall, phyrexian marauder.
Haha, oh wow. Yeah...totally overlooked that.
GB Death Cloud ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| R Peasant Kuldotha
W Soul Sisters ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| U Pauper Faeninja
UR Affinity |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| G Ezuri EDH
B Pox |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| R Norin EDH
No, because that's not a creature.
Maybe out of the SB.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Gitaxian Probe is already a 4-of, and is great for seeing what might stop you.
I've been playtesting with a singleton Summoner's Pact: it fetches ESG, counts towards storm, and thins my deck. If I keep it, I may drop one ESG for a 4th Petal.
I've been aware of the Chalice/Presence combo, and the two main problems I have with it are that it requires two cards, making it a) harder to assemble, and b) giving you less room in your 7 for mana sources and 0-drops, and also that it makes Scapegoating impossible, and so you have fewer outs to whiffs.
I'd like to point out that most of the probabilities I listed were derived using an incorrect equation (which I discovered when I worked out a 120% to draw a mana source...). The correct probabilities are as follows:
40% to open with Glimpse in a deck without Probes; 42.3% in a deck with Probes. (The rest of the probabilities are all assumed to be in Probe decks)
62.9% to open with either Glimpse OR Gamble
53.2% to open with Glimpse OR Gamble AND 2 mana sources
52.4% to open with Glimpse OR Gamble AND 2 mana sources AND 3 0-drop creatures (99.5% to open with one 0-drop, 98.5% to open with 3 0-drops)
More number crunching to come when I have time =)
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Here is my deck
Creature:
1 Crimson kobolds
4 Kobolds of kher keep
4 Memnite
4 Ornithpter
4 Phyrexian walker
4 Shield sphere
Instant:
2 Ad nauseam
4 Culling the weak
4 Dark ritual
1 Pact of negation
1 Retract
1 Slaughter pact
Sorcery:
2 Cabal therapy
2 Diabolic intent
4 Glimpse of nature
1 Infernal contract
3 Land grant
2 Thendrills of agony
Artifacts:
1 Mox opal
4 Lotus petal
Lands:
4 Bayou
3 Verdant catacombs
Sideboard:
2 Autumn's veil
1 Cabal therapy
1 Forest
2 Gaea's blessing
1 Massacre
1 Pact of negation
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Retract
1 Slaughter pact
2 Reverence silence
But another cards you may include in your sideboard if you don't like this are:
Chains of vapor, Karakas, Seeds of innocence, Cloustone curio, Genesis chamber, Tarmogoyf, Maelstorm pulse, Snuff out... and so on.
I hope that you like this deck and give me a post.
4x Ornithopter
4x Shield Sphere
4x Phyrexian Walker
4x Crimson Kobolds
4x Crookshank Kobolds
4x Kobolds of Kherson Keep
3x Wild Cantor
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Land Grant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Scapegoat
2x Personal Tutor
1x Gamble
1x Summoner's Pact
1x Grapeshot
1x Brain Freeze
1x Breeding Pool
1x Goblin Bushwhacker
1x Signal Pest
1x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Wild Cantor
1x Shifting Wall
1x Phyrexian Marauder
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Gamble
1x Memnarch
1x Devil's Play
2x Savannah
3x Angel's Grace
The Angel's Grace in the sideboard was supposed to be Silence, but I could not find any on game day. The deck performed extremely well, with consistent turn 1 and 2 wins, even beating 2 control decks 2-0.
A lot of people were very interested and entertained, many asked how my deck worked, and more were just ecstatic to sit beside me for another round and see it again. Judges asked how I was doing and offered specific technical questions about my deck, and a few would try to patrol around my table so they could watch.
I even managed to get my infinite mana engine going in one game, casting Devil's Play (which was supposed to be Banefire) for 1, and then flashing it back for 19. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to use Memnarch with infinite mana, as the judge was concerned about time and asked me to go ahead and win.
Now, my consideration is to play Overmaster in the sideboard instead of Silence. It has two big things going for it: it cantrips, and it can be fetched with Personal Tutor. It has one serious problem, though; it's red. If I turn 1 Breeding Pool for Tutor, it is very difficult to cast Overmaster turn 2. My thinking, however, is that the matchups where I need this (control) will be slower, and I will have more time to set up my mana. With that in mind, I believe that the cantrip from Overmaster makes it strictly better than Silence or Pact of Negation as combo protection.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
You've listed a drawback (color) yourself, so it can't be strictly better, although it might be better.
Secondly, it doesn't protect your next spell of the turn. Pact of Negation can protect a Scapegoat by virtue of the counterspell already being used, and Silence can obviously protect it as well. So it's not better on that front either.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Actually, that's exactly what it does. "The next instant or sorcery spell you cast this turn can't be countered by spells or abilities." I cast it, and it protects my next spell that turn (Glimpse).
The color is a drawback, but the same drawback exists for Silence (turn 2 Silence off Savannah), so that Silence is equal in that respect, it is equal in the protection element, and it is strictly worse in that it does not cantrip and that I can tutor for Overmaster but not Silence.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
No, no, no. You're misinterpreting. My usage of the word "next" must be confusing you. Overmaster protects a spell, but not the next one after that. So, for example, Overmaster will prevent Glimpse of Nature from being countered, but won't prevent a later counter on Scapegoat.
In the terminology I was trying to use, Glimpse is the spell you most want to protect, and Scapegoat is the next spell after that.
In this respect, Overmaster's protection ability is worse than that of Silence or Pact of Negation, since each of these can protect multiple spells from a single counter (by preventing it all turn or using it up).
Edit: Your use of "strictly better" is confusing. The phrase (as a phrase, and not two random words that simply happen to be juxtaposed) means that one thing has all the positive capabilities of another thing and either fewer negative attributes or more positive attributes. This doesn't apply to Overmaster and Silence, in either direction. However, it does apply to Orim's Chant and Silence, since Chant is always as good as Silence and sometimes better.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Given this list and your comments about availability of cards, what would it look like with no restrictions on money? I'm guessing that the shocks would become duals. Perhaps the Gamble would become a third Personal Tutor?
Care to offer a run down of matches and sideboarding from the event? If not, general notes on matchups?
From what I can tell, the infinite mana engine involves looping through your deck with Elixir of Immortality. Am I missing something?
How was Brain Freeze as a win condition? Would you have preferred to be a second copy of Grapeshot? Looks like a blast to play. I'll have to put it together and take it for a spin.
Anyways, point being, when only considering this deck and the circumstances it will produce, Overmaster becomes strictly better. There are 2 things that they need to do: Either draw out a counterspell, or make Glimpse uncounterable. They both do these things. Silence simply makes Glimpse uncounterable; making Scapegoat uncounterable as well is irrelevant, as nobody will ever counter Scapegoat. They will either counter Overmaster/Silence, or they will hold their counter in case it can stop something bigger (like your wincon, which it can't).
Overmaster makes Glimpse uncounterable; at this point in the analysis, it is equivalent to Silence for all relevant purposes. But it also cantrips, is tutorable, and is in a slightly easier color for us to produce. It has identical function with more positive effects. It is strictly better in this deck.
I know that technically, it is not strictly better in general, or really even comparable since they have different functions outside of Cheeri0s. If the terminology bothers you, I can concede the semantics and simply say that it is generally better for Cheei0s. Also, since Overmaster is tutorable, it probably doesn't even matter, since I can feasibly run 1 Overmaster and 2-3 Silence from the sideboard =P
@manaman: Actually, the availability issues were not money, but actual availability; nobody had Silences to sell or trade before the tourney started. This is very, very close to an optimal build of this particular version, and even when optimized completely, it would not cost much more.
Shocklands are technically suboptimal, but even with all the money I needed, I would still use them, because the shock will never, ever matter. I intentionally run 2 Tutors/1 Gamble because of a) Turn 1 Stomping Ground-->Gamble, and b) The slightly different purposes; Personal Tutor sets you up for next turn, Gamble can save you if you are whiffing right now.
You are correct about the infinite mana engine. 4 Lotus Petals+Elixir=1 mana, play more 0-drops, draw them again, get another mana. You control the number of cards going back into your deck with Land Grants and Probes so that you can draw the right amount (depending on how many times you Glimpsed).
Brain Freeze is perfectly fine as a wincon; it never failed me. It actually requires a smaller storm count than Grapeshot (17 vs. 19), and can be used in emergencies if you whiff. BF them for about 36-42 cards, chump block endlessly until the rest go. The only thing I would do with BF is maybe use Bushwhacker MD instead.
As for matchups and such, I left a report in the Legacy Tournament Report thread =)
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Fair enough. I had a similar problem at SCG Cincy. There were no Silences in the room. I didn't actually need them, so it was ok, but it was a bit frustrating. I assumed that you didn't have the duals or such and dealt with it accordingly. Given your response, I guess it doesn't matter.
In your example of Stomping Ground->Gamble->Glimpse of Nature, is it assumed that there is enough mana to make a Turn 1 win out of it? If there isn't, I don't see any real functional difference between that and Breeding Pool->Personal Tutor->Glimpse of Nature other than putting the card into your hand and not risking losing your target to random discard. I guess Gamble is better mid-combo over the Tutor since you don't have to spend another draw to get what you need. I'm assuming that you are happy with the 2/1 split instead of switching the numbers.
How does your local meta look (if you have one)? If you had a lot of Emrakul based decks around, I assume that the Brain Freeze would become something else?
I took a look at your report in the report thread. It sucks to lose to yourself (or your sleeves). At least you had some fun with the Pox player.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
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Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
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The semantic argument has been done to death, and I don't think aj was trying to browbeat you into submitting that you are using your language incorrectly. I think aj was trying to tell you that you're flat out wrong about your opinion, and you're making assumptions that are untrue. If we apply your belief that "no opponent would counter Scapegoat," then your opinion about Overmaster carries some weight; however, I have no idea why you assume that an opponent wouldn't counter a Scapegoat.
To be frank, you're underestimating your opponents. I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that Overmaster isn't as scary as a Silence. Silence is a must-counter because it means that you can't be interacted with at all--and in a situation where the opponent only has one counter, the choices they have are to burn their counter and hope you're afraid to walk into another counter, or to let Silence resolve and hope you were bluffing or that you fizzle. Note that in every situation where the opponent has one counter their options are completely constricted and they don't really have a way to outplay you. This isn't even considering that Silence prevents your opponent from sandbagging Stifle, Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, a counter for your Lotus Petal/Wild Cantor so you can even cast your win condition, etc. Let's compare this to Overmaster in your deck. You might be able to trick some less experienced players into countering an Overmaster, but I don't think it's ever correct to worry about whatever you intend to resolve. If we assume that I don't have any idea what you're playing and I only have one counter, I'm going to let Overmaster resolve because I don't think it's unfair to assume that you don't have much mana in play, and off the top of my head I can't think of a spell in the game that you could be casting off of the three mana max you have available that ends the game on its own, without you casting another spell I could counter to disrupt you. Furthermore, holding a counter may also lull you into a false sense of security and make you play right into that counter due to how easy it is to incorrectly evaluate Overmaster as a must-counter spell, even though it is probably always correct to let you resolve whatever your mystery spell is for the aforementioned reasons.
Now then, since we've established that good opponents will just let you resolve the Overmaster to cast your Glimpse...it only makes sense to counter your other spells that aren't zero mana guys. I can't make any claims about how popular this deck is outside of the area where I play, but I feel like Storm spells are such an obvious win condition for a deck like this that your opponent won't sit there and let you go off until you find your uncounterable win condition if they can help it. Concerning your opinion on your opponents always letting Scapegoat resolve...It's downright idiotic to let Scapegoat just happen. If I were on the other side of the table, I would assume that Scapegoat means that you're out of gas and that I would make you fizzle if I countered it. Even if you were able to anticipate this and play around it by casting Scapegoat when you still have guys in your hand to continue your combo, you have to realize that Scapegoat basically reads "Draw X cards, where X is one less than the number of creatures you have in play." Something about your opinions or experiences is just completely wrong if you think that this is a spell that an opponent would never think has a high enough impact that they should counter it.
I know you want a disruption spell that you can tutor up, but it is pure folly to assume that Overmaster is in any way better than Silence in this deck other than it being a sorcery.
That's right, I don't think Overmaster is better in general, not to mention strictly better than Silence.
Actual contributions to the discussion:
Autumn's Veil provides a Silence-like blanket of protection while being easier on the mana. Perhaps it's the card we need?
The mana is terrible-ish, but Determined has the cantrip you might want.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Actually, what I meant with the Stomping Ground-->Gamble example is that if you draw Stomping Ground (or Gamble and a Land Grant), then you simply can't use Tutor, but you can Gamble and go off next turn. Of course, we could simply run 2 Breeding Pools at that point, but then Overmaster would be more difficult out of the side, or Breeding Pool/Savannah, and run Silence.
Also, this deck is built mostly to be fun, and Gamble keeps it very fun (I Gambled for a 0-drop at the tourney with two other cards in hand to keep from whiffing :cool:).
@Namida & aj: I'm assuming nobody will counter Scapegoat because nobody has. I'm not assuming Overmaster to be a must-counter spell, and I know very well that an opponent should counter Scapegoat. Your argument that Silence is better in that it protects Scapegoat is correct, and I was wrong. But I still believe Overmaster is better for this deck by virtue of both tutorability and cantripping.
I would also like to point out that Stifle/Flusterstorm/Mindbreak Trap/countering Petals/Cantors at the end of the combo is irrelevant; I will simply continue comboing out to get my next Petal, or my second wincon.
I only need Scapegoat to save me from whiffs in about 30-40% of games, and much less if I wait a few turns to go off (which I do against control). I don't want my opponent to counter Overmaster; I want it to resolve, and then Glimpse is that mystery spell you talk of that just wins me the game.
I actually misread Veil and thought it was only making creatures uncounterable; I actually do like that much better than Silence. I may then run 2 Veil/1 Overmaster or possibly even 3/1. Determined is unfortunately too expensive, but it is a better version of Overmaster.
@Rogue: Yes, and I dislike that version because it makes Scapegoating impossible, and Scapegoat is probably one of the best outs this deck has to whiffing. It also makes Goblin Bushwhacker and Beastmaster's Ascension unusable wincons from the sideboard, which means you straight up lose to Leyline. Also, it requires two cards in your hand to combo off (Chalice and Presence), while this version only requires Glimpse. Finally, it is impossible to stack effects with Chalice, as you do with Glimpse. While running off Chalice or 1 Glimpse, you are never gaining cards in hand, simply replacing them one at a time. You can easily win this way, but double Glimpsing makes the combo run much smoother.
TL;DR: Yes, I was wrong and Silence is better, but I highly value tutorability and cantrippyness. Yes, Veil is a great suggestion, and thank you. Yes, Presence/Chalice is a thing, but I find it worse in most ways. If they play Blue and you worry they might be Show and Tell (you should have Probed them by now, though), BF first and find out, try to Grapeshot, if it gets MBT'd, side in Bushwhackers or a second Grapeshot.
Local meta here is almost entirely Stoneblade, Delver, and Dredge, with some ANT, High Tide, and Zoo mixed in.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
If you replaced the Silences in the sideboard with Autumn's Veil, what would you replace the Savannahs with?
I agree that Scapegoat is a pretty good reason not to run the Chalice/Presence version of the deck. You have a much better back up plan (aggro with either Bushwacker or Beastmaster's). You have less cards involved in the combo. I'm not sure your argument against stacking effects in the Chalice/Presence version is really valid. If you can resolve a second Multani's Presence, it is as good as a second Glimpse. You will draw twice as many cards as you go along. I think this part is a wash when comparing the 2 decks. Overall, I think that the combo that leaves you with some board presence regardless of if you succeed in resolving your main win condition is going to be better off.
Have you taken a look at the Cherri0s thread over at The Source? Their versions seems to run a lot more land for some reason.
Scapegoat makes a hell of a lot more sense. at the same time recently my friend has been talking my ear off about how awesome kobolds is and I tried to remember how the deck worked. for some reason i remembered that combo. but now that i know scapegoat exists i much prefer this style of kobolds over that older combo.
when it comes to attacking with kobolds, I see the advantage in bushwaker giving haste to all creatures, but in the case of beastmaster's ascension can you risk the waiting a turn for the kobolds to lose summoning sickness?
or do you run ascension along side bushwaker?
if not I was wondering what the opinion of signal pest was?
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I definitely see Autumn's Veil being playable over Silence. My current "optimized" sideboard (not filled with jank just to fill 15 slots) looks something like this:
4x Autumn's Veil
4x Silence
1x Overmaster
1x Personal Tutor
1x Goblin Bushwhacker
1x Beastmaster Ascension
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Banefire
1x Savannah
You'll notice I'm still sporting Savannah/Silence, even though I have 4 Autumn's Veil and 1 Overmaster. I believe Silence has a very specific place, which is against other combo decks. If another deck begins comboing out before me, a well-placed Silence can eat half their hand and leave them struggling to rebuild. Two decks spring to mind in particular for this use: High Tide, which has countermagic, and therefore Silence also doubles as my own protection, and Belcher, which is equally fast and impossible to interact with using any other card in my 75. Silence would be especially devastating to Belcher, and serves two purposes against High Tide, and against some control decks, I may even side in Savannah as a straight-up third land and try to slow roll a much heavier combo turn. Comboing out with 3 lands and Silence cover seems pretty good.
You'll also notice that I still have the Elixir/Banefire wincon in the sideboard. This is purely to entertain myself or troll jerks game 2 or 3. Remember, this deck is almost purely for fun, enjoyment, and trolling people =) [To that end, I got quite a few ragequits on Cockatrice tonight]
I'm also considering Cabal Therapy as a good sideboard option, though moving into Black may be dangerous, since Silence at least lines up with Scapegoat. Hmm, 5 color Cheeri0s ftw? Still, paying 2 Life to Probe before saying Overgrown Tomb, discard those 2 Dazes, flash it back to hit Force, is pretty sick.
Stifle has never been a problem for me. I had one Storm spell stifled in one game, and proceeded to use my other one, and win. An opposing Silence would really hurt, though if cast in response to Silence, it only slows me a turn, and if cast in response to Glimpse, it's just a Force of Will.
I have seen that version, and I can only assume the land count is to have a consistent mana base and easier turn 2 and 3 combos. He is also not running Land Grant, and probably has more lands to support maindeck BMA and Skyshroud Cutter.
@Rogue: You won't see any issues untapping with BMA out, except maybe getting BMA itself removed. You do run it alongside Bushwhacker, but if you don't draw both, or can't use both, you can still handle waiting a turn.
Signal Pest, I never saw. I sided him in against Control; you tend to slowroll into a perfect hand, and that means dropping 0-drops (for Scapegoating or swinging later) instead of discarding them EOT. Signal Pest allows for a decent and ever-increasing clock if you land him with your steady stream of critters. That was the theory, anyway. Like I said, I never played him =P
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
4x Crookshank Kobolds
4x Kobolds of Kher Keep
3x Ornithopter
4x Shield Sphere
4x Phyrexian Walker
4x Shifting Wall
4x Multani's Presence
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Lotus Petal
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Autumn's Veil
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Tendrils of Agony
2x Overgrown Tomb
For a sideboard, I'm thinking something like this.
2x Breeding Pool
1x Nix
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Pact of Negation
Dark Rituals in case they side in graveyard hate to turn off my songs of the damned, Nix and Breeding Pool to shut down any sort of Force of Will or other turn 0 counters, and Mindbreak Trap for other Mindbreak Traps/Flutterstorm. But, that's as far as I go. I'd really like some enchantment bounce/hate in case Leyline of Sanctity or anything turns of my Tendrils. Any ideas? Any other cards I should think about sitting in my board because they can take me down?