Quote from VitaemReally interesting deck.. But I looked on three different web pages, but I can´t find more than 28 0-cost creatures
Quote from Ace1@an honest man: chimeric mass isn't a creature and wouldn't activate glimpse, but there are some other x costed creatures.
Quote from an honest manYou could also use creatures with cmc x. Chimeric Mass for instance.
Quote from Ace1I've seen a similar deck use Multani's Presence + Chalice of void at zero. Perhaps you could add this engine in addition to glimpse for higher percentage of good hands?
@an honest man: chimeric mass isn't a creature and wouldn't activate glimpse, but there are some other x costed creatures: shifting wall, phyrexian marauder.
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Quote from serenechaosNow, my consideration is to play Overmaster in the sideboard instead of Silence. It has two big things going for it: it cantrips, and it can be fetched with Personal Tutor. It has one serious problem, though; it's red. If I turn 1 Breeding Pool for Tutor, it is very difficult to cast Overmaster turn 2. My thinking, however, is that the matchups where I need this (control) will be slower, and I will have more time to set up my mana. With that in mind, I believe that the cantrip from Overmaster makes it strictly better than Silence or Pact of Negation as combo protection.
Quote from ajfirecrackerYou've listed a drawback (color) yourself, so it can't be strictly better, although it might be better.
Secondly, it doesn't protect your next spell of the turn. Pact of Negation can protect a Scapegoat by virtue of the counterspell already being used, and Silence can obviously protect it as well. So it's not better on that front either.
Quote from serenechaosActually, that's exactly what it does. "The next instant or sorcery spell you cast this turn can't be countered by spells or abilities." I cast it, and it protects my next spell that turn (Glimpse).
The color is a drawback, but the same drawback exists for Silence (turn 2 Silence off Savannah), so that Silence is equal in that respect, it is equal in the protection element, and it is strictly worse in that it does not cantrip and that I can tutor for Overmaster but not Silence.
Quote from serenechaos
manaman22's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4x Memnite4x Ornithopter4x Shield Sphere4x Phyrexian Walker4x Crimson Kobolds4x Crookshank Kobolds4x Kobolds of Kherson Keep3x Wild Cantor2x Elvish Spirit Guide4x Glimpse of Nature4x Land Grant4x Lotus Petal4x Gitaxian Probe3x Scapegoat2x Personal Tutor1x Gamble1x Summoner's Pact1x Grapeshot1x Brain Freeze1x Stomping Ground1x Breeding PoolSideboard1x Goblin Bushwhacker1x Signal Pest1x Elvish Spirit Guide1x Wild Cantor1x Shifting Wall1x Phyrexian Marauder1x Elixir of Immortality1x Gamble1x Memnarch1x Devil's Play2x Savannah3x Angel's Grace
Quote from serenechaos
@manaman: Actually, the availability issues were not money, but actual availability; nobody had Silences to sell or trade before the tourney started. This is very, very close to an optimal build of this particular version, and even when optimized completely, it would not cost much more.
Shocklands are technically suboptimal, but even with all the money I needed, I would still use them, because the shock will never, ever matter. I intentionally run 2 Tutors/1 Gamble because of a) Turn 1 Stomping Ground-->Gamble, and b) The slightly different purposes; Personal Tutor sets you up for next turn, Gamble can save you if you are whiffing right now.
You are correct about the infinite mana engine. 4 Lotus Petals+Elixir=1 mana, play more 0-drops, draw them again, get another mana. You control the number of cards going back into your deck with Land Grants and Probes so that you can draw the right amount (depending on how many times you Glimpsed).
Brain Freeze is perfectly fine as a wincon; it never failed me. It actually requires a smaller storm count than Grapeshot (17 vs. 19), and can be used in emergencies if you whiff. BF them for about 36-42 cards, chump block endlessly until the rest go. The only thing I would do with BF is maybe use Bushwhacker MD instead.
As for matchups and such, I left a report in the Legacy Tournament Report thread =)
Quote from serenechaosAnyways, point being, when only considering this deck and the circumstances it will produce, Overmaster becomes strictly better. There are 2 things that they need to do: Either draw out a counterspell, or make Glimpse uncounterable. They both do these things. Silence simply makes Glimpse uncounterable; making Scapegoat uncounterable as well is irrelevant, as nobody will ever counter Scapegoat. They will either counter Overmaster/Silence, or they will hold their counter in case it can stop something bigger (like your wincon, which it can't).
Quote from NamidaThe semantic argument has been done to death, and I don't think aj was trying to browbeat you into submitting that you are using your language incorrectly. I think aj was trying to tell you that you're flat out wrong about your opinion, and you're making assumptions that are untrue. If we apply your belief that "no opponent would counter Scapegoat," then your opinion about Overmaster carries some weight; however, I have no idea why you assume that an opponent wouldn't counter a Scapegoat.
To be frank, you're underestimating your opponents. I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that Overmaster isn't as scary as a Silence. Silence is a must-counter because it means that you can't be interacted with at all--and in a situation where the opponent only has one counter, the choices they have are to burn their counter and hope you're afraid to walk into another counter, or to let Silence resolve and hope you were bluffing or that you fizzle. Note that in every situation where the opponent has one counter their options are completely constricted and they don't really have a way to outplay you. This isn't even considering that Silence prevents your opponent from sandbagging Stifle, Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, a counter for your Lotus Petal/Wild Cantor so you can even cast your win condition, etc. Let's compare this to Overmaster in your deck. You might be able to trick some less experienced players into countering an Overmaster, but I don't think it's ever correct to worry about whatever you intend to resolve. If we assume that I don't have any idea what you're playing and I only have one counter, I'm going to let Overmaster resolve because I don't think it's unfair to assume that you don't have much mana in play, and off the top of my head I can't think of a spell in the game that you could be casting off of the three mana max you have available that ends the game on its own, without you casting another spell I could counter to disrupt you. Furthermore, holding a counter may also lull you into a false sense of security and make you play right into that counter due to how easy it is to incorrectly evaluate Overmaster as a must-counter spell, even though it is probably always correct to let you resolve whatever your mystery spell is for the aforementioned reasons.
Now then, since we've established that good opponents will just let you resolve the Overmaster to cast your Glimpse...it only makes sense to counter your other spells that aren't zero mana guys. I can't make any claims about how popular this deck is outside of the area where I play, but I feel like Storm spells are such an obvious win condition for a deck like this that your opponent won't sit there and let you go off until you find your uncounterable win condition if they can help it. Concerning your opinion on your opponents always letting Scapegoat resolve...It's downright idiotic to let Scapegoat just happen. If I were on the other side of the table, I would assume that Scapegoat means that you're out of gas and that I would make you fizzle if I countered it. Even if you were able to anticipate this and play around it by casting Scapegoat when you still have guys in your hand to continue your combo, you have to realize that Scapegoat basically reads "Draw X cards, where X is one less than the number of creatures you have in play." Something about your opinions or experiences is just completely wrong if you think that this is a spell that an opponent would never think has a high enough impact that they should counter it.
I know you want a disruption spell that you can tutor up, but it is pure folly to assume that Overmaster is in any way better than Silence in this deck other than it being a sorcery.
Quote from manaman22Fair enough. I had a similar problem at SCG Cincy. There were no Silences in the room. I didn't actually need them, so it was ok, but it was a bit frustrating. I assumed that you didn't have the duals or such and dealt with it accordingly. Given your response, I guess it doesn't matter.
In your example of Stomping Ground->Gamble->Glimpse of Nature, is it assumed that there is enough mana to make a Turn 1 win out of it? If there isn't, I don't see any real functional difference between that and Breeding Pool->Personal Tutor->Glimpse of Nature other than putting the card into your hand and not risking losing your target to random discard. I guess Gamble is better mid-combo over the Tutor since you don't have to spend another draw to get what you need. I'm assuming that you are happy with the 2/1 split instead of switching the numbers.
How does your local meta look (if you have one)? If you had a lot of Emrakul based decks around, I assume that the Brain Freeze would become something else?
I took a look at your report in the report thread. It sucks to lose to yourself (or your sleeves). At least you had some fun with the Pox player.
Quote from serenechaos
@Rogue: Yes, and I dislike that version because it makes Scapegoating impossible, and Scapegoat is probably one of the best outs this deck has to whiffing. It also makes Goblin Bushwhacker and Beastmaster's Ascension unusable wincons from the sideboard, which means you straight up lose to Leyline. Also, it requires two cards in your hand to combo off (Chalice and Presence), while this version only requires Glimpse. Finally, it is impossible to stack effects with Chalice, as you do with Glimpse. While running off Chalice or 1 Glimpse, you are never gaining cards in hand, simply replacing them one at a time. You can easily win this way, but double Glimpsing makes the combo run much smoother.