Stasis feels like it should almost be an auto win for us unless it's somehow pressuring you turn 1.
i think i agree..i charge it to inexperience..
in our games, he never fails to get land tax online because he needs to make his land drops to build up his mana base to continue paying for stasis once it hits the table..but "land taxing" is actually hurting me more in the long run because, together with howling mine, it helps him "deck" me faster..i have so many dead cards against him pre-board, he has some copies of disenchants and boomerangs in the main that any silver bullet i happen to resolve under his counters either get bounced back or disenchanted..in one game, he went "draw-go", for many turns, then would suddenly cast mana short at the end of my turn, then plop down stasis on his turn..but i think the game would be more interesting post-board..
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Stasis feels like it should almost be an auto win for us unless it's somehow pressuring you turn 1.
There are some very different versions lurking out there. Some versions based on Fatpow's build can basically drop exploration/horn of greed/asuza (sp?) and a couple of land bouncers t1 and by the time t3/4 comes around they have basically drawn most of their deck and popped it into play, and the only thing that can be done to slow it is an Orim's. Others do indeed pressure you t1- they use root maze (making lands and artifacts ETB tapped) and spirit guides as their acceleration. They are unwinnable from a Parfait POV on the draw if they hit t1 Maze t2 drawer eg howling mine/t3 forsaken city+ stasis, because at no stage do you get any mana to cast spells by the time you are hardlocked t3- and by hardlock I mean you never get any land or artifact mana, which is a pretty firm hardlock - the stasis deck can then sculpt a Vise type win at will later if you don't scoop. I have also seen ones that use RIP/energy field themselves and can helm the opponent, which can take advantage of Parfait's own RIP seemingly from nowhere. I have even seen ones running Leyline of Sanctity main and stupid amount of counters to fight through (4 FOW, 4 Daze, 2 Thwart). Generally the problem with Stasis is you will always be the more recognisable deck, and there could be anything in theirs.
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heroic intervention
hmm, seems like elves has a possible new toy..before, we can just chant them to stop what they are doing, then wrath them on our turn to undo what they did(a tip i got from WeaponX)..i wonder if elves would start running this?
nah, i'm probably worrying too much..i was looking at the spoilers and didn't find any new toys for us to use so instead, i found myself looking for cards that can possibly be good against us so i wouldn't be surprised when i come across one..
I don't even wrath Elves, I run Humility x2 in that slot. Bottom line is Chant in response to the Glimpse card drawer and we should be golden for stopping them amassing too big army. They have to bring stuff into deal with our RIP Helm, I doubt they would even bring this in- we use Humility and little bits of stuff like STP, Ghostly Prison, Unexpectedly Absent (which still works on our stuff to save it), Council's Judgement (that does not target), Orings etc. rather than full sets of "must hit" removal. Stopping their Cradle with Blood Moon and using boarded Rule of Law/Trinisphere/Spirit of the Labyrinth effects plus to stop their neat stuff if they get rid of Humility should do the trick- I won't be losing sleep over this card- maybe if it cantripped it would be a 4 of in the deck, as it is I doubt it would take more than a couple of their board slots, and not do too much then ....
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@WeaponX
i was thinking about firespout because it seemed to be good in our deck..
was looking at your older lists and saw that you ran it in the past, how was your experience with it?
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I'd call it unnecessary. We have enlightened tutor which can already find a card to beat a deck. Why sacrifice more sideboard slots to another engine? The minor gain isn't worth it.
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would you say that b/r reanimator is a bad matchup? i haven't played it, but might this weekend, i've no experience against it..same game plan with b/u reanimator i assume?
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I have no experience of the match, but I do own a stock RB reanimator list. It is faster than UB- about a turn faster. It mulls more than UB too.
It can drop a Sire t1, which is obviously bad news, and can tax your first play too.
That said Leyline of Sanctity is better vs Discard than it is vs. counters.
I use the extra lands of Karakas x2 and Maze main, and having spent 3 hours playing RB reanimator vs a friend and his Lands deck I can assure you that Maze is a pain and a half for RB reanimator.
Their board plan will be Stronghold Gambit or Sneak attack plan most likely, probably the former. If you run Peacekeeper it could be hilarious until Tyrant comes down, ditto Humility is a hard answer for them....
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after finally testing against b/r reanimator last weekend, here are my thoughts:
when they are on the play, they usually have a turn-1 action like a spot discard spell or mana acceleration(ritual) into entomb and reanimation spell..they only have 4 cards to interact with you when they are on the draw which are 4 chancellors..we are not on black or blue so we really don't have many powerful cards against them on turn-1; a first turn land tax is not really so hot against them, our best bet is to land a quick rip or a sphere with the help of a mox preferably on turn 1-2..or if you maindeck a leyline of the void, maybe in lieu of the 2nd rip..
chants help a little in delaying them for a turn..
and yes a resolved humility is lights out against them..
i would say the matchup is about to 70-30 in their favor(preboard)..
guys, what do you think of going 61 cards? does the fact that our deck does a good job of thinning itself justify adding a 61st card to possibly shore up tough matches, maybe the 61st card could be a leyline of the void? or a silence to act as a 5th orim's chant since we usually have a bad game 1 against storm based combo? and reanimator?
That what sideboards are for and game one you get information. There shouldn't be a need to shore up for a bad matchup until game 2 anyway as most cards you would likely play you probably want immediately. Leyline of the void was like that for me; I need it starting in play or turn 10 when I could cast it.
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In Parfait I want to see Land Tax opening hands as often as possible, one more card reduces the chances of that marginally.
If a match needs improving against a particular archetype then that can normally be done without going to >60. Toolbox decks for some reason do often tempt people to 61 cards, but it is wrong normally, and often the extra card they want to be squeezed in for certain situations can often be included anyway when the list is tightened.
Of course you can now go up after boarding to 61 if you are so inclined or don't know what to cut, but that is probably wrong too, although it might be better than making the wrong cut to 60.
There are some lists where somebody will play 61 at their LGS and swear by it, and I am sure I have done casual (what used to be 8K) events where I have run 61 and it did not harm me/helped me, but it was still probably wrong, and I probably tightened the list after......
had some playtest sessions with MUD, aggro-loam and eldrazi stompy last sunday..
MUD post:
the mud deck i played against doesn't seem to be maindecking any chalices(to my surprise and delight), we played 4 games and won all of them, bloodmoon seemed to have been the determining factor in all the matches..i've checked some MUD/MUDPOST lists online and realized that many mud/post lists don't run chalices in the main because they also run candelabra's, maps & needles..i consider this matchup favorable..
aggro loam:
i know that they only have 3-4 ways to deal with our hate in the form of abrupt decays..humility is our trump card against them..i won 3-0
eldrazi:
we played 4 games, and he resolved a turn-1 chalice in all four games! i couldn't draw into any answers while his smashers, seers, etc ran me over..grrr! but i don't feel bad about it, i know we have the tools to fight them..maybe i was just unlucky.. 0-4
They have a 40% chance of opening hand chalice, and need the sol land or Spirit Guide too, remembering Temple is not a sol land vis-a-vis Chalice.
If you run O ring/Unexpected/CJ effects you can get out of t1 chalice, the trick being not dying first- a healthy number of Humility and Ghostly prison cards will slow them even if you do not run any Maze of Iths being a main deck Blood Moon deck.
Going first and getting L tax down is fab, I think we can play from there even if they land Chalice on their t1 on the draw. Chalice on 1 is one reason why I don't run Swords- I have a lot of Chalices in my environment, I can't put all my eggs in the 1 cc basket.
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Chalice at 1 is much more annoying then crippling. I think my build highlights that as most cards I play are to get to the late/mid game where we can cripple our opponent or just win.
Also fwiw, my mud build was red and played goblin welder which even then was different. I played trinisphere main over chalice which was still a board option. That kind of set up may play out differently.
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It has not changed too much- I have imported a Blood Moon to the board, and got a Mountain into the main obviously, and Elspeth has made its way main deck. Both suggestions I took from here and based on play experience. I do not want to play Moon main, but the threat of it is strong- people also think Belcher when they see the odd mountain.
I can post my list tomorrow.....I am still standing by UA as a strong card in the deck.
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It has not changed too much- I have imported a Blood Moon to the board, and got a Mountain into the main obviously, and Elspeth has made its way main deck. Both suggestions I took from here and based on play experience. I do not want to play Moon main, but the threat of it is strong- people also think Belcher when they see the odd mountain.
I can post my list tomorrow.....I am still standing by UA as a strong card in the deck.
kjeldoran outpost- i remember you mentioned its good against miracles, seems like a good call since bloodmoon isn't really that great against miracles, in fact, some miracles list even have the moon in their SB..against what other decks does the outpost shine? (@WeaponX, do you side out bloodmoon against miracles?)
maze of ith- at the top of my head, i think its good against eldrazi? or b/r reanimator maybe?
karakas- this is obviously good against griselbrand and emmy..i've been having trouble with b/r reanimator lately..last time i played against it, we went 2-4..
on elspeth: if i were to run non-basics, she would replace goblin charbelcher as another wincon..but for now, i like her in my SB..
these are basically the decks that i would encounter almost weekly, maybe with a few infect and eldrazi players too..yes, its a diverse meta..
i'm still running bloodmoon main, but looking at the meta, i'm trying to decide whether i should still keep it in the main or relegate it to the board, bloodmoon is just too good against mudpost, grixis and infect, though i usually side out the moon against miracles and burn..
my list is very close to WeaponX' list, except with some minor tweaks because i like to change things up sometimes and try new things without compromising the core of the deck..i sometimes run a firespout in lieu of the 3rd wrath, or a UA instead of the 3rd o-ring, but its basically the same..
i would try to test some non-basics in the main just to see what's what, but i think i am likely to revert back to my original list with the moon in the main..
Ghostly prison cards will slow them even if you do not run any Maze of Iths being a main deck Blood Moon deck....
hmm, i was under the impression that we side-out ghostly prison against them since they can easily pay for it with their sol lands..is my reasoning flawed?
@WeaponX
-i would like to hear your input too..
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i think i agree..i charge it to inexperience..
in our games, he never fails to get land tax online because he needs to make his land drops to build up his mana base to continue paying for stasis once it hits the table..but "land taxing" is actually hurting me more in the long run because, together with howling mine, it helps him "deck" me faster..i have so many dead cards against him pre-board, he has some copies of disenchants and boomerangs in the main that any silver bullet i happen to resolve under his counters either get bounced back or disenchanted..in one game, he went "draw-go", for many turns, then would suddenly cast mana short at the end of my turn, then plop down stasis on his turn..but i think the game would be more interesting post-board..
—Seal inscription
There are some very different versions lurking out there. Some versions based on Fatpow's build can basically drop exploration/horn of greed/asuza (sp?) and a couple of land bouncers t1 and by the time t3/4 comes around they have basically drawn most of their deck and popped it into play, and the only thing that can be done to slow it is an Orim's. Others do indeed pressure you t1- they use root maze (making lands and artifacts ETB tapped) and spirit guides as their acceleration. They are unwinnable from a Parfait POV on the draw if they hit t1 Maze t2 drawer eg howling mine/t3 forsaken city+ stasis, because at no stage do you get any mana to cast spells by the time you are hardlocked t3- and by hardlock I mean you never get any land or artifact mana, which is a pretty firm hardlock - the stasis deck can then sculpt a Vise type win at will later if you don't scoop. I have also seen ones that use RIP/energy field themselves and can helm the opponent, which can take advantage of Parfait's own RIP seemingly from nowhere. I have even seen ones running Leyline of Sanctity main and stupid amount of counters to fight through (4 FOW, 4 Daze, 2 Thwart). Generally the problem with Stasis is you will always be the more recognisable deck, and there could be anything in theirs.
hmm, seems like elves has a possible new toy..before, we can just chant them to stop what they are doing, then wrath them on our turn to undo what they did(a tip i got from WeaponX)..i wonder if elves would start running this?
nah, i'm probably worrying too much..i was looking at the spoilers and didn't find any new toys for us to use so instead, i found myself looking for cards that can possibly be good against us so i wouldn't be surprised when i come across one..
—Seal inscription
i was thinking about firespout because it seemed to be good in our deck..
was looking at your older lists and saw that you ran it in the past, how was your experience with it?
—Seal inscription
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
or is it unnecessary?
—Seal inscription
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
—Seal inscription
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
—Seal inscription
It can drop a Sire t1, which is obviously bad news, and can tax your first play too.
That said Leyline of Sanctity is better vs Discard than it is vs. counters.
I use the extra lands of Karakas x2 and Maze main, and having spent 3 hours playing RB reanimator vs a friend and his Lands deck I can assure you that Maze is a pain and a half for RB reanimator.
Their board plan will be Stronghold Gambit or Sneak attack plan most likely, probably the former. If you run Peacekeeper it could be hilarious until Tyrant comes down, ditto Humility is a hard answer for them....
when they are on the play, they usually have a turn-1 action like a spot discard spell or mana acceleration(ritual) into entomb and reanimation spell..they only have 4 cards to interact with you when they are on the draw which are 4 chancellors..we are not on black or blue so we really don't have many powerful cards against them on turn-1; a first turn land tax is not really so hot against them, our best bet is to land a quick rip or a sphere with the help of a mox preferably on turn 1-2..or if you maindeck a leyline of the void, maybe in lieu of the 2nd rip..
chants help a little in delaying them for a turn..
and yes a resolved humility is lights out against them..
i would say the matchup is about to 70-30 in their favor(preboard)..
—Seal inscription
just a thought..
—Seal inscription
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
If a match needs improving against a particular archetype then that can normally be done without going to >60. Toolbox decks for some reason do often tempt people to 61 cards, but it is wrong normally, and often the extra card they want to be squeezed in for certain situations can often be included anyway when the list is tightened.
Of course you can now go up after boarding to 61 if you are so inclined or don't know what to cut, but that is probably wrong too, although it might be better than making the wrong cut to 60.
There are some lists where somebody will play 61 at their LGS and swear by it, and I am sure I have done casual (what used to be 8K) events where I have run 61 and it did not harm me/helped me, but it was still probably wrong, and I probably tightened the list after......
did you remove the revokers from your list?
—Seal inscription
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
MUD post:
the mud deck i played against doesn't seem to be maindecking any chalices(to my surprise and delight), we played 4 games and won all of them, bloodmoon seemed to have been the determining factor in all the matches..i've checked some MUD/MUDPOST lists online and realized that many mud/post lists don't run chalices in the main because they also run candelabra's, maps & needles..i consider this matchup favorable..
aggro loam:
i know that they only have 3-4 ways to deal with our hate in the form of abrupt decays..humility is our trump card against them..i won 3-0
eldrazi:
we played 4 games, and he resolved a turn-1 chalice in all four games! i couldn't draw into any answers while his smashers, seers, etc ran me over..grrr! but i don't feel bad about it, i know we have the tools to fight them..maybe i was just unlucky.. 0-4
—Seal inscription
If you run O ring/Unexpected/CJ effects you can get out of t1 chalice, the trick being not dying first- a healthy number of Humility and Ghostly prison cards will slow them even if you do not run any Maze of Iths being a main deck Blood Moon deck.
Going first and getting L tax down is fab, I think we can play from there even if they land Chalice on their t1 on the draw. Chalice on 1 is one reason why I don't run Swords- I have a lot of Chalices in my environment, I can't put all my eggs in the 1 cc basket.
Also fwiw, my mud build was red and played goblin welder which even then was different. I played trinisphere main over chalice which was still a board option. That kind of set up may play out differently.
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
is your list still close to the one you posted on page 32?
how does it look like now?
—Seal inscription
I can post my list tomorrow.....I am still standing by UA as a strong card in the deck.
i reckon the non-basics you run are:
kjeldoran outpost, maze of ith and karakas, right?
kjeldoran outpost- i remember you mentioned its good against miracles, seems like a good call since bloodmoon isn't really that great against miracles, in fact, some miracles list even have the moon in their SB..against what other decks does the outpost shine? (@WeaponX, do you side out bloodmoon against miracles?)
maze of ith- at the top of my head, i think its good against eldrazi? or b/r reanimator maybe?
karakas- this is obviously good against griselbrand and emmy..i've been having trouble with b/r reanimator lately..last time i played against it, we went 2-4..
on elspeth: if i were to run non-basics, she would replace goblin charbelcher as another wincon..but for now, i like her in my SB..
this is the result of a legacy tourney last week at my LGS, the top 8 decks are: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14643&f=LE
Mud Post
Miracles
Death & Taxes
Miracles
Br Reanimator
Grixis Delver
Burn
Storm
these are basically the decks that i would encounter almost weekly, maybe with a few infect and eldrazi players too..yes, its a diverse meta..
i'm still running bloodmoon main, but looking at the meta, i'm trying to decide whether i should still keep it in the main or relegate it to the board, bloodmoon is just too good against mudpost, grixis and infect, though i usually side out the moon against miracles and burn..
my list is very close to WeaponX' list, except with some minor tweaks because i like to change things up sometimes and try new things without compromising the core of the deck..i sometimes run a firespout in lieu of the 3rd wrath, or a UA instead of the 3rd o-ring, but its basically the same..
i would try to test some non-basics in the main just to see what's what, but i think i am likely to revert back to my original list with the moon in the main..
—Seal inscription
hmm, i was under the impression that we side-out ghostly prison against them since they can easily pay for it with their sol lands..is my reasoning flawed?
@WeaponX
-i would like to hear your input too..
—Seal inscription