For blood moon against miracles the best I can offer is it depends. I feel like a broken record saying it so much. The issue there is that miracles has taken on flavours to the point where a build runs basics and blood moon itself. So against that build it's probably worth cutting, against the others it hurts fetches which is worth it alone.
@numbers: One thing you have to keep in mind is that life is very much a resource for mud because of ancient tomb. While they can recoup the loss with wurmcoil the set up isn't consistent. That's always been the downfall of the deck (and why I played welder and looting). In my case it's easy to keep the one I have to create decisions for my opponent. In the end it almost depends on how their hand plays out to see if it was worth it, more often then not you're better cutting it.
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Remember your blood moon will let Sol land decks not take pain or sac Cities for a Ghostly tax. EDIT- I have played Eldrazi a lot as I own the deck and often get asked to play it in testing. You lose life at a horrible rate with it, and only win because they lose it at a greater rate, often a huge Mimic/Smasher type turn. When 2 is required to attack you often buy a turn or so. Ghostly is synergistic with Maze effects too.....
I will post my list after my daughter is in bed....
board 1 choke (infect, all U decks obv including miracles) 2 krosan grip (miracles, enchantress, painter, stax-y decks, MUD, normally the odd copy vs d n t for their equipment) 2 spirit of the labyrinth (high tide etc decks, elves, enchantress, omnitell) 1 aethersworn canonist (storms, high tide decks, elves, enchantress, infect, omnitell) 4 leyline of sanctity (storm, RB reanimator, discard heavy- pox, eg cerain BUG variants, nic fit, tezeret affinity- I normally bring at least two of these in against Miracles as their win is often via Jace) 1 peacekeeper (infect, eldrazi, reanimators (RB/UB), certain depths decks, elves, d n t + maverick (only if they do not know about it), merfolk, sneak and show) 1 flex slot 1 rule of law (storms, high tide etc., enchantress, elves) 1 blood moon ( elves, all the post decks, enchantress, depths, greedy decks (e.g. some nic fit, most BUG and Junds,) lands, MUD and d n t) 1 swords to plowshares (flex slot- there for d n t, UR delver, maverick, 20/20s etc.)
I run a main deck 'geddon, which makes bringing in Moon a decent option against Nic Fit if they do not know about it.
The 'geddon also really helps with the ghostlies...and of course you can 'geddon against Miracles sometimes and ruin them by wiping out their white.
Outpost is good against most of the decks running deed like Nic Fit which has difficulty in dealing with lands as it is low on Wastelands, it is good vs miracles, good vs anything with humility down.
I played a 24 player FNM last night.
Was terribly frustrating- I lost two matches 2-1 in turns, won another easily and lost another horribly. 1-3 Worst result with the deck in ages, probably a year though I have not played it for a couple of months (it has been borrowed from me).
I won r1 vs Manaless dredge, even though he boarded in 4 forests (which he drew) and reverent silences. The match was over in 5 mins maybe, including boarding.
I then lost to a D N T deck, very unusually. In G1 he went vial port on the play and would not lay any lands beyond the 2nd to trigger land tax. He dropped mommy, Thalia I, Thalia 2 off and Ported me. I could not trigger LT, and he had protection for targeted removal by Mom, and Thalia/Port did their job. I did not see my two Karakases.
I have not seen people play this way successfully with D N T. He tried the same tactic next game but I resolved Needle and Blood Moon and thus won. I established a fantastic board position in game 3 with Ghostly and Humility, plus Top and LT/Scrack combo after his 3rd t1 Vial start, resolving Humility, but a Cataclysm and later Seal of Cleansing saved him. It was one of those Scroll Rack games where with no Land Tax or Tutor mid game I was always looking one card deeper putting 5 back in the end. Finally I drew the Helm and had the mana for a one turn window, but the Seal sat there stopping me executing RIP helm that turn, thereafter I never had the mana for the combo. I got a second RIP and laid it for the turn after, but a Port stopped me executing the win next turn, Mox turned up next turn to provide the necessary extra mana, but a second port joined the party the turn before, and he was able to sneak in for lethal via his Jitte. I had Peacekeeper in hand a long time but Jitte was active. Frustrating in many ways.
I had a similar tale of woe vs BUG, wining the first game easily despite him having a great hand against me to start, losing a moderately close-ish second and losing a tight third in turns with Humility down as he top decks, a couple of dudes for lethal, my hand being hit by t1 Thoughtseize and a stupidly good Hymn t2. I perhaps was done by his boarding out and in of his discard spells between the games, I kept Leyline out game 2 as I thought (I think correctly correctly) that he would board out discard, which he put back in game 3.
My last match was always going to be hard- Infect- my version is more poorly set up against it than most as I run my Swords in the board with Unexpectedly main, and my removal was Dazed on my t2 after Ltax resolved on the play, and Dazed or Forced(?) t3 and - he then probed and won. The second game was longer and a real game, I got dazed early there too, but a Canonist saved me from death on t2. I could have dropped Humility to stop +1+1 triggers on his Inkmoth, but a second Inkmoth had joined the party and I was on 8 poison. I had to mull a Peacekeeper hand away with the LT/SR combo and Blood Moon as it had two Moxen and no land.
I have no thoughts, other than I would like to add back in a couple more swords to the board, where too many cards gather dust and don't come in. A second peacekeeper will be added too to the board, how I had it a while back and I will probably add a second Pithing Needle main as I used to run two and miss having both. I would also like to settle on one splash - Red for Blood Moon main I think might be best, but I lose the Outposts, which are excellent vs Miracles. I may put outpost to the board for Miracles....
I would in other circumstances consider Blue splash for Back to Basics, E Field and Monastery Siege, the Siege could be a good way of filtering as well as potentially making Decays etc cost 4. I would not want to lose Karakas though, and if I were to play B2B I would go all basics. B2B cuts mana better, but they get to use untapped mana to AD. So given Decay is everywhere thanks to Miracles, Moon and Red it is. To be honest the deck has been fine, I don't want to make radical changes on the basis of one event, although I note over the past 18 months that I have a very high win percentage game one but lower game two. In this particular place I am well known for this deck and Stax, so people assume I am on one or the other, I probably won't play it here for a while again, especially as the place is infested with Miracles and if I remove outpots and put blood moon main that match will get worse. It also has a lot of Burn, but as ever I dodged what is a near bye for Parfait.....
I will try it in the near future elsewhere.
i haven't faced infect yet but my instincts dictate that its a tough matchup, we have so many good cards against them, the problem is their speed..i think i should be looking for a path or a chant in my opener, or i might mull..
drmarkb, i am really perplexed by your lack of PtE's(or even swords) in your main deck..i would drop -1 zuran orb, -1 humility, -1 unexpectedlay absent to find room for at least 3 copies, but personally i prefer 4..
i just realized you're also not running wrath effects in the main, i'm guessing its a meta call..
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
Well for a long time I was simply not facing decks whee they were that much good; we had a strange absence in my local meta (despite in some cases people owning these decks) of previously common critter decks like BUG, sneak and show, random BG-X (e.g. jund, nic fit), Elves and any of the many decks with Delver. I was finding that I would end up playing high tide (where Stp was useless), pox (not good), enchantress (useless), d n t (where mom often said no unless humility was down), miracles (where it is ok but UA was better), burn (which is a near bye anyway with or without), lands (where it was good but we had a reasonably good match anyway). Storm would come in and out too, where again Stp/PTE is not good.
My local meta has had a swing towards critter decks now, more BG-x, Reanimator etc. whilst this shop I played on Friday in has Elves, BUG, lots of Miracles, a fair bit of Storm, Nic Fit, Deathblade, plenty of D N T, a chunk of burn and infect, and the odd bit of Dredge, a S n T too. Remember, we all build to beat what is in front of us, in a normal meta I would aim at 4 in the 75, 2-4 main stp/swords, although the exact split eludes me.
I am looking at bringing in more, up to 4 in the 75, 3 main, in light of what I am up against now. Although I would never go below 2 humility or 2 zuran. I will drop a land (outpost) to the board, and fiddle a bit. Not sure on if PTE is better than STP.........
EDIT come to thin of it, PTE + Blood Moon seems a bit weaker than STP, especially when RIP helm is the big aim of our (or at least my) deck over damage.
heard this guy from this podcast talk about how he recently got traumatized by mighty quinn, well it aint parfait; but its always good to hear a mono-white, enchantment-based, prison type control deck do well against a top-tier deck..i think the guy was on lands..skip to 1:01:03 to hear it..
another guy also mentioned about a parfait variant with a tabernacle.......
I was commenting on this on the Stax thread. For Parfait I don't think it is as natural a fit, although like Stax there is the whole Humility combo, and unlike it there is no double white issue. A 3 cc defensive PW which does not rely on having critters has to be worthy of consideration and a bit of testing.
It's interesting. Works favourably with humility. Ultimate is cute, especially against some decks. May be worth a try but it doesn't feel like it does enough for parfait. If only it were an enchantment.
Our store had its first Legacy event (with proxies allowed) last night so I printed off some Mox Diamonds and took Parfait to 2nd place, only losing one game all night.
This is the list I played, I think its the stock list WeaponX has in the primer :
R1 vs RG giants and hydras. This guy drove from out of town after seeing the facebook post and discussion on our proxy rules and showed up with a modern legal Theros deck focused on monstrosity and giants. Things didn't go well for him and he didn't win a match...or game...all night which is why I ended up in 2nd.
R2 vs Sneak and Show. Most people were talking about what they were going to play so I knew what he was on which led me to tutor up O-ring pretty early on, was able to O-ring Sneak Attack and Griselbrand off of Show and Tells. He didn't even know how I was going to kill him but G1 but conceded so we had some time for G2. Couldn't find a tutor or anything G2 but was gaining a ton of life off of Ivory Tower and Zuran orb and had a pretty big board when he was able to sneak attack an Emrakul in. Took me down to 30 life and a RiP and 4 mana sources. Got the Helm next turn and won. Felt like a decent matchup if you knew they were sneak and show so you can Oring their first threat, Ghostly Prison was funny against a fast Sneak Attack. Orim's chant was also great, never got to use in in response to sneak attack but did force him into timeout while I developed my board more.
R3 vs Enchantress. This opp watched the end of the last match so knew that I had Helm as a win-con. Humility turned his enchantresses into beaters and he had no card draw and slammed a Solitary confinement with three cards in hand. I got my own solitary incase he had a helm in hand and we waited until he had to sacrifice it with the combo on board. G2 was pretty quick, he played RiP on T3 and I had Helm and 5 mana ready on T4.
R4 vs Lands. Unfortunetly went to time in G3, had an assemble the legion down with two paths in hand so I felt like I would have had it in a few more turns. Lost G2 because I tutored for the wrong thing, should have got RiP but he didn't have Loam going yet and wanted to develop my board else where. Had a Pithing Needle on Thespian Stage so he was able to get enough lands to eventually melt Marit Lage the hard way. I was able to survive a hit from her before finding a path but lost to Molten Vortex. Lost my land tax early so was very choked on lands the whole time. Felt like I could have won if I had gotten RiP early and maybe made a few other choices different. G1 wasn't exciting, just Land Tax and Srack to lock him down and get all the card advantage.
Very succesful and fun night overall. Nobody knew what to make of my deck which is just how I like it. Next event is end of May but I used my prize money to get a few more pieces so maybe one day I can play it for real. Love the deck and had a blast!
Yeah that looks like my stock list. I don't remember the last time I played assemble the legion. I do miss it a little. It ends games for us with a minimal investment. Did you get to charbelcher anyone?
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wow, the deck really performed the way its supposed to..good job well done..your main deck is almost 100% identical to mine, with the difference being that i don't run duals anymore..
i like how you opted to tutor for an o-ring against show and tell, the deck strength scales with how much you know what you're playing against..i remember getting paired against someone who i knew was on DnT, i got a pithing needle in my opener, so on my 1st turn i dropped it and named vial..
i think thats one of the most exciting things about playing against enchantress, they are also on the rip/helm plan so you might accidentally help them go off, another card i find effective against enchantress in trinisphere, it slows them down a lot, there's a player here who ran a copy of Armageddon at his side against enchantress..
i think lands is a little favorable, we have cards in the main that almost cripples the deck, bloodmoon, rest in peace.....
I did Charblecher the poor RG modern deck...for 50 damage...Assemble the legion was on board when we went to time against Lands so I'm sure it would have closed it out super fast, I had a foil one and its a pet card so I played it over the 3rd timely. I should have got the RiP against lands. We had a rematch last night for Modern Tuesday in between round and I easily 2-0ed against him. Just getting used to playing the deck I guess. I'd like to finish it and have it for IRL tournies but the moxes are so darn pricey.
the mox diamonds are pricey indeed, but its really important here so i suggest saving up for them little by little..before i got mine, i used to run some wildfield borderpost..
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
i feel Storm is greatly favored in a counterbalance-free metagame, a tough matchup for us..what do you think should we expect in this new meta without miracles?
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Not sure about that......
More storm is certainly possible, I agree there.
Miracles always felt tougher to me than most decks, I only felt happy with Kjeldoran Outposts main vs Miracles, and I did not get much out of them vs many other decks. Storm was never that bad, especially if you could float a Chant on the top of the deck.
Rule of Law, Canonists, RIP, Leyline of Sanctity, Taxes on attacking with the inevitable "you weren't expecting this" Goblin tokens game 2 made storm feel OK, none "nailed it" as they can remove an irritant and "go off", but it was not that bad. I mean they can always "just win" t1 vs many decks, sure, although at one point I ran two Leylines main when it was prevalent here.
I would say that if you are worried about Storm a U splash might be worth considering
(a) we can run Flusterstom in the side
(b) we could thus run Energy Field for more RIP combo
(c) we could also run Back to Basics if the meta goes more BUGy.
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I want delve cards back because it made people get crushed by all the main deck hate we have. I haven't changed this deck since I first built it all that much. Most changes I make are to the board and are minor upgrades. I weakest matchup will always be combo as they can always nut draw us. If you are so terrified silence, abeyance, and meddling Mage are other options.
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i've heard rumors that stoneblade and maverick might make a resurgence after the banning, i feel we need not fear maverick but i've no experience playing against stoneblade with parfait..how do we fare against stoneblade?
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
Hello everyone, I've been following this thread for a bit now, and I'm looking at parfait as my first legacy deck. I follow the format pretty closely, but haven't played it much due to time and money constraints.
Anyway, I think this deck is really cool, I love the main engine and the enchantment toolbox. One thing that got to me is that I would really like a way to increase the consistency of drawing the main engine pieces and/or the right toolbox pieces even more than it already does. I worry about the issue of drawing awkward hands with nothing but the wrong silver bullets.
So, I want to try something that was suggested a while back, splashing blue for brainstorm. This opens up Jace, the mind sculptor as an alternate win condition, which I think is an improvement over Elspeth, and he also controls the top of the library as well. Those two cards make terminus very attractive as a wrath variant. Finally, blue gives access to Back to Basics as a replacement for blood moon.
Here are some questions I have. I apologize ahead of time if any of these things have been gone over in the rest of the thread. I am still in the process of reading through it all.
-Is the blue splash a good idea? Has anyone tried something like this before, and how did it work?
-is 10 real sources of blue plus land tax, scroll rack, and Etutor enough to support the splash, in particular hoping to cast brainstorm relatively early? I know that 14 is the minimum recommended sources for turn one access to a color, so that's not always going to be possible, but I want to limit the number of non-plains as well.
-Is 13 basics enough for land tax?
-Is a few more non-basics (tundra, ghost quarter, wasteland, outpost, etc) worth the non-bo with back to basics?
-Is Daze playable, and if so, how many islands do I need to support it?
-Is powder keg still considered good?
-Do I need another win condition, or is 2x helm combo and jace enough?
-Isochron scepter?
-I know I need a sideboard, but I always focus on the main 60 first, even if that's not necessarily the most effective deck building strategy.
Okay, those are the questions I have so far. I really appreciate the time and interest in my list. This is very exciting to me, and parfait is totally my kind of deck, so I'm looking forward to this being my first legacy deck.
Thanks!
1) Blue is fine. Jace, brainstorm, daze, and meddling Mage are the best reasons to play blue and you can play energy field as a bonus. That said I feel that adding blue negates the tool box aspect of traditional parfait and detracts from the reason to play the engine in the first place. Back to basics for instance is not really a prison piece the way blood moon is. You can actually win by simply resolving a bloodmoon against some decks, but if you have hard counters there really isn't a reason to potentially lock yourself out as well. So TL;DR it is but it doesn't feel like parfait.
2)this ultimately depends on how heavy and demanding you are of that colour. If you look at my red splash build I play 2 mountains and 4 moxes as red sources and that's more then enough to cast all the red spells I play while still giving me options with charbelcher. So as a general rule I would recommend 2 on colour duals and a basic as a starting point and go from there. I hate non basics with tax for the most part as it takes away from the engine so any included need to have a high value.
3)I play a hard 18 basics in my build. 6 activations of tax worth. It helps to make decisions easier the more basics you have since they don't have the same value as a non basic.
4) to clarify I feel like B2B is the non-bo as it doesn't stop a player from playing spells. If they just play a delver and never untap you can still lose to the single spell they play. So this comes down to how your deck wants to play as it isn't a gotcha kind of card.
5) daze is playable. You need at least 1 island. It is diminishing returns regardless.
6) yes. But it is meta dependant. You basically are choosing between keg, ratchet bomb, and explosives if you are considering it so factor in what you're playing it against.
7) I play 2x rip/helm and a belcher main and have options to side into hatebesrs and planeswalkers. I play prison.
8) soft no. It does not play well with prison builds and is effectively a 4 mana spell. It works very well in Quinn however. I find it deck dependent.
9) not a question. But that's how you should make a sideboard. It's there to help shore up bad match ups. By using the silver bullet strategy you can main deck very powerful generic answers to a lot of decks. Some decks need more then that, for parfait that's combo as we are positioned to beat everything else easily. As a general gloss over your sideboard should be focused on beating combo first since they can nut draw us before we can do anything. The longer we can make a game go the more likely we will win.
Well hope that answers all your questions. I tried to be concise so I apologize if something isn't clear.
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I would find space for a Pithing needle somewhere.
I have not done the maths on Brainstorm-Fetch-Terminus, but it looks prima facie to be slightly iffy, even with Scrack to order the top.
On Back to Basics, I run the card in my side project of Stasis, and its a great card - but only when combined with taxes and hard prison cards. Moon stops spells being cast unless they fetch around it or have Moxen/DRS. Without them they can be out of the game a long time, unless they are UR delver, Pox or Burn. B2B stops them casting spells for a turn or two (unless they are burn or Pox) if you get lucky/they get careless- tutor when they are tapped out. Normally it works well only if you tax them simultaneously- Tabernacle forcing them to tap out there and then or lose their dudes, Propaganda/Ghostly meaning no or one shot attack, Monastery siege even meaning they need 3-4 mana to target you. In that situation they have to spend their land drops to do anything meaningful. The tabernacle is essential with it, and you need a method of drawing one, without that I would go Moon.
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Hello guys,
I am a former miracles player and after the ban, I've been trying to migrate to a parfait build.
Would you guys mind having a look on my list?
My wish is to revamp this old but still awesome list:
(lsv playing this list here // mothership lsv article about it here )
I hated lsv's list. I expected more. I have the remenants of a UW list I never finished (as noted on the source) and my standard bdi list links in my sig.
1) I don't think pophery nodes was ever really good in the meta, but it fulfills a function. I feel in most cases it's just a mediocre terror but it can be a house on occasion.
2) I feel terminus is only playable with top as wrath is an actual answer and not just a delay.
3) I call 3 a sweet spot as far as rack is concerned. It's a card you want to see, you would rather not tutor for it because they are better suited to silver bullets, and multiples aren't great. Running counterbalance you should have brainstorm and jace which are better suited to the miracles plan as they draw cards. That lets you go to 2 racks.
4) helm is an efficient win con that runs alongside an amazing main deck hate card in rip. It lets you win now instead of next turn. It doesn't lose to creature removal.
5)with land tax confinement it easily the best silver bullet made. Period. At worst it's a time walk for 3.
Lot of quick glossing over. Hope that helps some.
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@numbers: One thing you have to keep in mind is that life is very much a resource for mud because of ancient tomb. While they can recoup the loss with wurmcoil the set up isn't consistent. That's always been the downfall of the deck (and why I played welder and looting). In my case it's easy to keep the one I have to create decisions for my opponent. In the end it almost depends on how their hand plays out to see if it was worth it, more often then not you're better cutting it.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I will post my list after my daughter is in bed....
1 mountain
1 forest
2 karakas
2 kjeldoran outpost
1 maze of ith
19 land
4 mox diamond
2 zuran orb
4 land tax
4 orim's chant
4 enlightened tutor
1 cursed scroll
1 pithing needle
1 sensei's divining top
4 rest in peace
3 scroll rack
2 unexpectedly absent
1 oblivion ring
1 solitary confinement
2 ghostly prison
2 humility
2 helm of obedience
1 armageddon
1 elspeth, knight errant
board
1 choke (infect, all U decks obv including miracles)
2 krosan grip (miracles, enchantress, painter, stax-y decks, MUD, normally the odd copy vs d n t for their equipment)
2 spirit of the labyrinth (high tide etc decks, elves, enchantress, omnitell)
1 aethersworn canonist (storms, high tide decks, elves, enchantress, infect, omnitell)
4 leyline of sanctity (storm, RB reanimator, discard heavy- pox, eg cerain BUG variants, nic fit, tezeret affinity- I normally bring at least two of these in against Miracles as their win is often via Jace)
1 peacekeeper (infect, eldrazi, reanimators (RB/UB), certain depths decks, elves, d n t + maverick (only if they do not know about it), merfolk, sneak and show)
1 flex slot
1 rule of law (storms, high tide etc., enchantress, elves)
1 blood moon ( elves, all the post decks, enchantress, depths, greedy decks (e.g. some nic fit, most BUG and Junds,) lands, MUD and d n t)
1 swords to plowshares (flex slot- there for d n t, UR delver, maverick, 20/20s etc.)
I run a main deck 'geddon, which makes bringing in Moon a decent option against Nic Fit if they do not know about it.
The 'geddon also really helps with the ghostlies...and of course you can 'geddon against Miracles sometimes and ruin them by wiping out their white.
Outpost is good against most of the decks running deed like Nic Fit which has difficulty in dealing with lands as it is low on Wastelands, it is good vs miracles, good vs anything with humility down.
Was terribly frustrating- I lost two matches 2-1 in turns, won another easily and lost another horribly. 1-3 Worst result with the deck in ages, probably a year though I have not played it for a couple of months (it has been borrowed from me).
I won r1 vs Manaless dredge, even though he boarded in 4 forests (which he drew) and reverent silences. The match was over in 5 mins maybe, including boarding.
I then lost to a D N T deck, very unusually. In G1 he went vial port on the play and would not lay any lands beyond the 2nd to trigger land tax. He dropped mommy, Thalia I, Thalia 2 off and Ported me. I could not trigger LT, and he had protection for targeted removal by Mom, and Thalia/Port did their job. I did not see my two Karakases.
I have not seen people play this way successfully with D N T. He tried the same tactic next game but I resolved Needle and Blood Moon and thus won. I established a fantastic board position in game 3 with Ghostly and Humility, plus Top and LT/Scrack combo after his 3rd t1 Vial start, resolving Humility, but a Cataclysm and later Seal of Cleansing saved him. It was one of those Scroll Rack games where with no Land Tax or Tutor mid game I was always looking one card deeper putting 5 back in the end. Finally I drew the Helm and had the mana for a one turn window, but the Seal sat there stopping me executing RIP helm that turn, thereafter I never had the mana for the combo. I got a second RIP and laid it for the turn after, but a Port stopped me executing the win next turn, Mox turned up next turn to provide the necessary extra mana, but a second port joined the party the turn before, and he was able to sneak in for lethal via his Jitte. I had Peacekeeper in hand a long time but Jitte was active. Frustrating in many ways.
I had a similar tale of woe vs BUG, wining the first game easily despite him having a great hand against me to start, losing a moderately close-ish second and losing a tight third in turns with Humility down as he top decks, a couple of dudes for lethal, my hand being hit by t1 Thoughtseize and a stupidly good Hymn t2. I perhaps was done by his boarding out and in of his discard spells between the games, I kept Leyline out game 2 as I thought (I think correctly correctly) that he would board out discard, which he put back in game 3.
My last match was always going to be hard- Infect- my version is more poorly set up against it than most as I run my Swords in the board with Unexpectedly main, and my removal was Dazed on my t2 after Ltax resolved on the play, and Dazed or Forced(?) t3 and - he then probed and won. The second game was longer and a real game, I got dazed early there too, but a Canonist saved me from death on t2. I could have dropped Humility to stop +1+1 triggers on his Inkmoth, but a second Inkmoth had joined the party and I was on 8 poison. I had to mull a Peacekeeper hand away with the LT/SR combo and Blood Moon as it had two Moxen and no land.
I have no thoughts, other than I would like to add back in a couple more swords to the board, where too many cards gather dust and don't come in. A second peacekeeper will be added too to the board, how I had it a while back and I will probably add a second Pithing Needle main as I used to run two and miss having both. I would also like to settle on one splash - Red for Blood Moon main I think might be best, but I lose the Outposts, which are excellent vs Miracles. I may put outpost to the board for Miracles....
I would in other circumstances consider Blue splash for Back to Basics, E Field and Monastery Siege, the Siege could be a good way of filtering as well as potentially making Decays etc cost 4. I would not want to lose Karakas though, and if I were to play B2B I would go all basics. B2B cuts mana better, but they get to use untapped mana to AD. So given Decay is everywhere thanks to Miracles, Moon and Red it is. To be honest the deck has been fine, I don't want to make radical changes on the basis of one event, although I note over the past 18 months that I have a very high win percentage game one but lower game two. In this particular place I am well known for this deck and Stax, so people assume I am on one or the other, I probably won't play it here for a while again, especially as the place is infested with Miracles and if I remove outpots and put blood moon main that match will get worse. It also has a lot of Burn, but as ever I dodged what is a near bye for Parfait.....
I will try it in the near future elsewhere.
drmarkb, i am really perplexed by your lack of PtE's(or even swords) in your main deck..i would drop -1 zuran orb, -1 humility, -1 unexpectedlay absent to find room for at least 3 copies, but personally i prefer 4..
i just realized you're also not running wrath effects in the main, i'm guessing its a meta call..
—Seal inscription
My local meta has had a swing towards critter decks now, more BG-x, Reanimator etc. whilst this shop I played on Friday in has Elves, BUG, lots of Miracles, a fair bit of Storm, Nic Fit, Deathblade, plenty of D N T, a chunk of burn and infect, and the odd bit of Dredge, a S n T too. Remember, we all build to beat what is in front of us, in a normal meta I would aim at 4 in the 75, 2-4 main stp/swords, although the exact split eludes me.
I am looking at bringing in more, up to 4 in the 75, 3 main, in light of what I am up against now. Although I would never go below 2 humility or 2 zuran. I will drop a land (outpost) to the board, and fiddle a bit. Not sure on if PTE is better than STP.........
EDIT come to thin of it, PTE + Blood Moon seems a bit weaker than STP, especially when RIP helm is the big aim of our (or at least my) deck over damage.
another guy also mentioned about a parfait variant with a tabernacle.......
http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/super-secret-tech/super-secret-tech-ep-005-signpost-cards-in-early-turns-the-mighty-quinn-a-brief-overview
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
This is the list I played, I think its the stock list WeaponX has in the primer :
3 Scroll Rack
2 Wrath Of God
1 Day of Judgement
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Tower
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Mountain
15 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Aura of Silence
1 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Council's Judgement
R1 vs RG giants and hydras. This guy drove from out of town after seeing the facebook post and discussion on our proxy rules and showed up with a modern legal Theros deck focused on monstrosity and giants. Things didn't go well for him and he didn't win a match...or game...all night which is why I ended up in 2nd.
R2 vs Sneak and Show. Most people were talking about what they were going to play so I knew what he was on which led me to tutor up O-ring pretty early on, was able to O-ring Sneak Attack and Griselbrand off of Show and Tells. He didn't even know how I was going to kill him but G1 but conceded so we had some time for G2. Couldn't find a tutor or anything G2 but was gaining a ton of life off of Ivory Tower and Zuran orb and had a pretty big board when he was able to sneak attack an Emrakul in. Took me down to 30 life and a RiP and 4 mana sources. Got the Helm next turn and won. Felt like a decent matchup if you knew they were sneak and show so you can Oring their first threat, Ghostly Prison was funny against a fast Sneak Attack. Orim's chant was also great, never got to use in in response to sneak attack but did force him into timeout while I developed my board more.
R3 vs Enchantress. This opp watched the end of the last match so knew that I had Helm as a win-con. Humility turned his enchantresses into beaters and he had no card draw and slammed a Solitary confinement with three cards in hand. I got my own solitary incase he had a helm in hand and we waited until he had to sacrifice it with the combo on board. G2 was pretty quick, he played RiP on T3 and I had Helm and 5 mana ready on T4.
R4 vs Lands. Unfortunetly went to time in G3, had an assemble the legion down with two paths in hand so I felt like I would have had it in a few more turns. Lost G2 because I tutored for the wrong thing, should have got RiP but he didn't have Loam going yet and wanted to develop my board else where. Had a Pithing Needle on Thespian Stage so he was able to get enough lands to eventually melt Marit Lage the hard way. I was able to survive a hit from her before finding a path but lost to Molten Vortex. Lost my land tax early so was very choked on lands the whole time. Felt like I could have won if I had gotten RiP early and maybe made a few other choices different. G1 wasn't exciting, just Land Tax and Srack to lock him down and get all the card advantage.
Very succesful and fun night overall. Nobody knew what to make of my deck which is just how I like it. Next event is end of May but I used my prize money to get a few more pieces so maybe one day I can play it for real. Love the deck and had a blast!
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
i like how you opted to tutor for an o-ring against show and tell, the deck strength scales with how much you know what you're playing against..i remember getting paired against someone who i knew was on DnT, i got a pithing needle in my opener, so on my 1st turn i dropped it and named vial..
i think thats one of the most exciting things about playing against enchantress, they are also on the rip/helm plan so you might accidentally help them go off, another card i find effective against enchantress in trinisphere, it slows them down a lot, there's a player here who ran a copy of Armageddon at his side against enchantress..
i think lands is a little favorable, we have cards in the main that almost cripples the deck, bloodmoon, rest in peace.....
again, kudos to you..thanks for the report!
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More storm is certainly possible, I agree there.
Miracles always felt tougher to me than most decks, I only felt happy with Kjeldoran Outposts main vs Miracles, and I did not get much out of them vs many other decks. Storm was never that bad, especially if you could float a Chant on the top of the deck.
Rule of Law, Canonists, RIP, Leyline of Sanctity, Taxes on attacking with the inevitable "you weren't expecting this" Goblin tokens game 2 made storm feel OK, none "nailed it" as they can remove an irritant and "go off", but it was not that bad. I mean they can always "just win" t1 vs many decks, sure, although at one point I ran two Leylines main when it was prevalent here.
I would say that if you are worried about Storm a U splash might be worth considering
(a) we can run Flusterstom in the side
(b) we could thus run Energy Field for more RIP combo
(c) we could also run Back to Basics if the meta goes more BUGy.
I want delve cards back because it made people get crushed by all the main deck hate we have. I haven't changed this deck since I first built it all that much. Most changes I make are to the board and are minor upgrades. I weakest matchup will always be combo as they can always nut draw us. If you are so terrified silence, abeyance, and meddling Mage are other options.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
—Seal inscription
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Anyway, I think this deck is really cool, I love the main engine and the enchantment toolbox. One thing that got to me is that I would really like a way to increase the consistency of drawing the main engine pieces and/or the right toolbox pieces even more than it already does. I worry about the issue of drawing awkward hands with nothing but the wrong silver bullets.
So, I want to try something that was suggested a while back, splashing blue for brainstorm. This opens up Jace, the mind sculptor as an alternate win condition, which I think is an improvement over Elspeth, and he also controls the top of the library as well. Those two cards make terminus very attractive as a wrath variant. Finally, blue gives access to Back to Basics as a replacement for blood moon.
Here's the list I came up with so far:
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
3 Swords to plowshares
Sorcery:
3 Terminus
Artifact:
2 Helm of obedience
4 Mox diamond
1 Pithing needle
1 Powder keg
3 Scroll Rack
1 Back to Basics
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
4 Land tax
1 Oblivion ring
2 Rest in peace
1 Runed halo
1 Solitary confinement
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land:
4 Flooded strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
11 Plains
Here are some questions I have. I apologize ahead of time if any of these things have been gone over in the rest of the thread. I am still in the process of reading through it all.
-Is the blue splash a good idea? Has anyone tried something like this before, and how did it work?
-is 10 real sources of blue plus land tax, scroll rack, and Etutor enough to support the splash, in particular hoping to cast brainstorm relatively early? I know that 14 is the minimum recommended sources for turn one access to a color, so that's not always going to be possible, but I want to limit the number of non-plains as well.
-Is 13 basics enough for land tax?
-Is a few more non-basics (tundra, ghost quarter, wasteland, outpost, etc) worth the non-bo with back to basics?
-Is Daze playable, and if so, how many islands do I need to support it?
-Is powder keg still considered good?
-Do I need another win condition, or is 2x helm combo and jace enough?
-Isochron scepter?
-I know I need a sideboard, but I always focus on the main 60 first, even if that's not necessarily the most effective deck building strategy.
Okay, those are the questions I have so far. I really appreciate the time and interest in my list. This is very exciting to me, and parfait is totally my kind of deck, so I'm looking forward to this being my first legacy deck.
Thanks!
1) Blue is fine. Jace, brainstorm, daze, and meddling Mage are the best reasons to play blue and you can play energy field as a bonus. That said I feel that adding blue negates the tool box aspect of traditional parfait and detracts from the reason to play the engine in the first place. Back to basics for instance is not really a prison piece the way blood moon is. You can actually win by simply resolving a bloodmoon against some decks, but if you have hard counters there really isn't a reason to potentially lock yourself out as well. So TL;DR it is but it doesn't feel like parfait.
2)this ultimately depends on how heavy and demanding you are of that colour. If you look at my red splash build I play 2 mountains and 4 moxes as red sources and that's more then enough to cast all the red spells I play while still giving me options with charbelcher. So as a general rule I would recommend 2 on colour duals and a basic as a starting point and go from there. I hate non basics with tax for the most part as it takes away from the engine so any included need to have a high value.
3)I play a hard 18 basics in my build. 6 activations of tax worth. It helps to make decisions easier the more basics you have since they don't have the same value as a non basic.
4) to clarify I feel like B2B is the non-bo as it doesn't stop a player from playing spells. If they just play a delver and never untap you can still lose to the single spell they play. So this comes down to how your deck wants to play as it isn't a gotcha kind of card.
5) daze is playable. You need at least 1 island. It is diminishing returns regardless.
6) yes. But it is meta dependant. You basically are choosing between keg, ratchet bomb, and explosives if you are considering it so factor in what you're playing it against.
7) I play 2x rip/helm and a belcher main and have options to side into hatebesrs and planeswalkers. I play prison.
8) soft no. It does not play well with prison builds and is effectively a 4 mana spell. It works very well in Quinn however. I find it deck dependent.
9) not a question. But that's how you should make a sideboard. It's there to help shore up bad match ups. By using the silver bullet strategy you can main deck very powerful generic answers to a lot of decks. Some decks need more then that, for parfait that's combo as we are positioned to beat everything else easily. As a general gloss over your sideboard should be focused on beating combo first since they can nut draw us before we can do anything. The longer we can make a game go the more likely we will win.
Well hope that answers all your questions. I tried to be concise so I apologize if something isn't clear.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I have not done the maths on Brainstorm-Fetch-Terminus, but it looks prima facie to be slightly iffy, even with Scrack to order the top.
On Back to Basics, I run the card in my side project of Stasis, and its a great card - but only when combined with taxes and hard prison cards. Moon stops spells being cast unless they fetch around it or have Moxen/DRS. Without them they can be out of the game a long time, unless they are UR delver, Pox or Burn. B2B stops them casting spells for a turn or two (unless they are burn or Pox) if you get lucky/they get careless- tutor when they are tapped out. Normally it works well only if you tax them simultaneously- Tabernacle forcing them to tap out there and then or lose their dudes, Propaganda/Ghostly meaning no or one shot attack, Monastery siege even meaning they need 3-4 mana to target you. In that situation they have to spend their land drops to do anything meaningful. The tabernacle is essential with it, and you need a method of drawing one, without that I would go Moon.
I am a former miracles player and after the ban, I've been trying to migrate to a parfait build.
Would you guys mind having a look on my list?
My wish is to revamp this old but still awesome list:
(lsv playing this list here // mothership lsv article about it here )
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instant/Sorcery
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
1 Daze
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
Artifacts
2 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
3 Scroll Rack
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment
1 Back to Basics
4 Counterbalance
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Detention Sphere
4 Land Tax
1 Moat
2 Porphyry Nodes
1 Rest in Peace
1 The Abyss
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Pithing Needle
2 Porphyry Nodes
1 Rest in Peace
2 Spell Pierce
1 Aura Fracture
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Energy Flux
1 Engineered Plague
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Misdirection
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Spiritual Focus
1 Stifle
Moat, The abyss and underground sea is still out of my budget, so I've been trying for the time being a UW build:
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instant/Sorcery
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
1 Daze
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
Artifacts
2 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
4 Scroll Rack
Enchantment
1 Back to Basics
4 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
4 Land Tax
2 Porphyry Nodes
1 Energy Field
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Rest in Peace
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
1 Pithing Needle
2 Porphyry Nodes
2 Rest in Peace
1 Spell Pierce
1 Energy Flux
2 Misdirection
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Spiritual Focus
2 Stifle
1 Energy Field
1 Helm of Obedience
Many questions I want to ask (sorry if I exaggerated):
4 strand
4 island
7 plains
2 ancient tomb
4 land tax
2 scroll rack
1 zuran orb
1 jace the mindsculptor
4 brainstorm
3 rest in peace
2 helm of obedience
1 energy field
1 counterspell
1 detention sphere
3 enlightened tutor
3 gitaxian probe
3 daze
4 force of will
1 supreme verdict
4 Mox diamond
3 swords to Plowshares
4 meddling Mage
3 phyrexian revoker
1 elspeth
1 supreme verdict
1 propaganda
1 back to basics
1 pithing needle
1 empyrial plate
1 humility
1 moat
1) I don't think pophery nodes was ever really good in the meta, but it fulfills a function. I feel in most cases it's just a mediocre terror but it can be a house on occasion.
2) I feel terminus is only playable with top as wrath is an actual answer and not just a delay.
3) I call 3 a sweet spot as far as rack is concerned. It's a card you want to see, you would rather not tutor for it because they are better suited to silver bullets, and multiples aren't great. Running counterbalance you should have brainstorm and jace which are better suited to the miracles plan as they draw cards. That lets you go to 2 racks.
4) helm is an efficient win con that runs alongside an amazing main deck hate card in rip. It lets you win now instead of next turn. It doesn't lose to creature removal.
5)with land tax confinement it easily the best silver bullet made. Period. At worst it's a time walk for 3.
Lot of quick glossing over. Hope that helps some.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord