I'm not trying to go all in on omni. I agree its better then dream halls to show in, but it is also an awful card to hold into without show. That is why I say you have more dead cards.
I would rather play control first over all in on show and tell. Again I think that's where the difference is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
You arent thinking it through. These are all the possible combos in the deck
show+emrakul
show+omni->enter the infinite
show+omni-> cantrip/intuition into emrakul
show+dream halls (plus blue card)-> enter the infinite
dream halls (+blue card)-> enter the infinite
You play 8 cards that require you to also discard/remove another blue card. One of those cards is dreamhalls (aka one of the combo pieces you are looking for), the other is FoW (which is the best protection spell in most cases). The cards you are playing instead are intuition spell snare and preordain (aka cards to find your combo pieces) you should just play more combo pieces.
When you are playing a combo deck as powerful as this, you dont need to play control, you just need to not lose before you win.
Im not going "all in" on omni, I just have more ways to combo than you do.
I get what the deck does. You are missing what I am saying. You MUST cast show to play the bulk of your deck. I am trying to avoid that. I want to play dream halls, not omni show with dream halls.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I get what the deck does. You are missing what I am saying. You MUST cast show to play the bulk of your deck. I am trying to avoid that. I want to play dream halls, not omni show with dream halls.
except you are wrong? how hard is it to understand that more combo pieces means more likely to see a game winning combo.
I play just as many dream halls as you do
I play just as many show and tells as you do
I play just as many cantrips as you do (and get to hold on to more blue cards more often, you were going to play that land anyways, might as well get even more value out of your fetches)
I play two less counterspells than you do (spellsnare has me scratching my head, why would you ever play this? i would understand pierce/dispel/fluster/divert/misdirection/daze as they better against a wider variety of counterspells and discard)
I play more omniscience than you (meaning more cards to pair with show and tell, the same amount of cards to dreamhalls and the same amount of cards to pitch to force)
Yes, you do play more intuitions, but intuition is really really bad with dream halls, it means that you have even MORE cards in hand that you cant pitch to it
my list doesnt have to cast show and tell any more than yours does, and is much better vs the common interactions that top teir decks play. Omniscience can be discarded to dreamhalls to cast enter the infinite just as well as any other blue card
im going to stand by what i said earlier:
My set up plays MORE combo cards with FASTER acceleration with BETTER cantrips and MORE interaction and it does all of that even MORE consistently with LESS card required. Its the same deck as yours, but better in almost every measurable way.
My game winning combo is to have a dream halls in play. Cards that come into effect after dream halls (or an omni) see play is what I am trying to minimize as they are only relevant after that given spell is played. I want the deck to play magic and be able to combo. It's a fine line, that's all there is to it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Lets see, by your reasoning, i should take out kiki-jiki out of my modern splinterwin deck, because I want to combo with splintertwin right?
Now, taking those intuitions out for more protection, that I can definitely understand, and is a meta call. But as you have it now, your cantrip suit is sub par. And i am going to keep on harping on it till you try top over preordain 3 and 4 and realize its better.
If anyone is going more "all in" on anything YOU ARE! "i would rather play with just this(aka less total) combo piece"
I do get what you are saying, you want to use sub par cards to enact a slower game plan because you have decided that you would rather play less combo cards. your reasoning is wrong and your plan isnt as good.
(I get that you dont want to be vulnerable to O-ring/D-sphere, my deck is just as good as winning with dream halls as yours is <possibly even better, the first sensei's top is worth the same as one ponder except it cost (2) instead of U, after that, you save a cantrip in hand every time you draw a fetch>, My list has just the same capabality to hold back on Show and tell as your does, but has even more options when i can show and tell with impunity meaning it is a better plan versus the field and the same plan vs the hate that you are trying to dodge)
You say that my deck is more "all in" and then you go about reducing the possible options you have <--- does not compute
Post your current list lets see where you are
With that said, I do think there is room to explore if intuition+accumulated knowledge is better than the current cantrip suite, and the question of how many interaction spells the deck should run is a valid one (i think 8 is the sweet spot, 4 FoWs, 3 appropriet one mana counters and 1 mise Wish), and I would really like to know how many pitch cards this deck can support (is two misdirects to many? what about one?) and we probably should work out what the best ratio of fetches to basics to grim monoliths are. but as it is right now, i can tell you 4brainstorm/4ponder/4preordian is not nearly as good as 4brainstorm/4ponder/2preordian/2sensei's top
I'm certain those cards will be main deck. Enter and omni I'm not sure what the quantity should be but that is also affected by other cards. I keep mentioning mind bomb dream halls I used to play. Resolving dream halls meant I could cycle my deck indefinitely. Without it the deck was still versatile enough in that it could still cast key spells. That the sweet spot I'm after.
Like I mentioned the ak plan is great purely because it works so well with dream halls. Intuition makes it quite strong to. The draw for intuition is that it gives me both draw and tutor potential main deck. During the tournament with the jank list casting 2 intuitions wins the game but casting that many also says changes were needed.
Either way there's a lot to look at and consider. Think my focus is more on the delver idea right now though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
@Henry F I really feel like you lack certain understandings about Magic in general in fact life in general. LOL. Sometimes, you can't win on turn 2 because you don't always get the nuts all the time. For these reasons, I understand where Weapon X is going with the deck. For the exact same reasons that Weapon X has concluded, I have concluded too.
I like Sensei top in this deck, if I could, I would find a some way to put in. Maybe, take out 2 preordain's or 2 counter spells, but I feel that both top and preordain are basically the same thing. Sensei top is really helpful to be able to shuffle away dead cards at the top of your deck. In this deck, you do get a lot of dead cards at the top; therefore, it is valuable. Sometimes, you don't always have as many can-trips as you would like so Sensei's top is another can-trip. Why waste 2 slots for Sensei's top to smooth out draws which Ponder and Preordain is suppose to do then just having a tutor that gets you the card that you need. For this reason, I run 2 Intuition. I don't run 3 because I feel that my deck becomes more clunky if I do. For this reason, I run 1 Personal Tutor. In any case, if I need a Show and Tell or Enter the Infinite, Personal Tutor will suffice. I will use Intuition for getting like a free counterspell or some piece of my combo.
I like the idea of having 8 counter spells in this deck because it makes my deck more resilient to control decks. It also puts me in the control position as well.
I run only 3 emrakul, 3 omniscience, and 3 Enter the Infinite because with all the testing I've done, if you have 4 of each, sometimes you have hands that you have nothing but these cards in 2s, and it's frustrating that you have to wait on a top deck for a can-trip or something to make your hands better. For this reason, Intuition is solvable to be able to pick-up one of these combo pieces in order for you to win.
You cannot win on turn 2 against a control deck without a lot of resistance going back at you. For this reason, Cunning Wish is a fail. If your opponent beats you are a rare piece of luck he has received from the Magic gods, then it wasn't meant to be. For some reason, he lucked out on the small percentage to get what he needs to beat you. I'm not all about that. I'm all about playing consistently as possible, and to have things in my control to do what I need to do to win. I don't want to rely on luck if I'm so able to not to.
I just had an awesome idea: I think I might take out an Omniscience and that Personal Tutor to put in 2 Jace, the Mindculptor. LOL. Wild, right?
jace is pretty good in this deck. I played him as 2x in the U/R version of this (with the burning wish/petals of insight/grapeshot kill). I would probably add him instead over intuition/the 4th enter the infinite, though i feel like the correct number is probably 1 or 2, testing should show either way.
I like how you 'disagree' with me, and then post nearly the same decklist. You dont know how happy that makes me feel. I play a 3/4 split of omnscience/enter the infinite but i could easily see going down to 3 of both. if you ever play less than 3 of either then intuition becomes useless as a tutor (one omnscience means you almost have to play 4 enters, if the first one gets countered then you only have vanishingly few ways to actually win.
I would caution against ever playing city of traitors in this type of deck (and would play the 4th tomb over the 1st city) because part of the strength of this deck is how many must-deal-with-now cards it plays, and how quickly we can reload after a 'failed' combo (sometimes the plan is to run them out of counters). one of the *last* things you want to do is give them free wastelands against our mono-blue combo deck.
I like how personal tutor can grab enter/show and tell so I will have to test it out, but I dont like how it is card disadvantage.
I think it is hysterical how no one reads threads anymore (we are only on page 3 it really isnt that hard) so i will just quote myself as to why cunning wish is in the deck (hint: it isnt for control).
from page one:
You dont play cunning wish as an anti control card, you play it because it is one slot that means you dont ever have to lose to randomness in game one (like them showing in ensaring bridge or whatever).
Yes you could also play a wipe away, but then you lose the marginal value of sometimes having cunning wish turn into an intuition that wins the game or the counterspell that saves you.
it ISNT FOR CONTROL, its an i-dont-want-to-lose-to-randomness protection card that can be turned into an intuition that can be turned into a combo win when it isnt needed. Its like playing more cards in less slots. I hear a protection spell that is ALSO a combo card is good. Of course it gets sided out for better things when it isnt needed. This deck has tons of room in its SB, as you cant really side too much in without the risk of over-diluting the deck
You should absolutely take out 2 preodains for 2 tops. You dont ever want to see multiple tops, but they turn every fetchland into an effective cantrip and can really mean the differnce between having enough blue cards for dreamhalls+free counters and not.
Besides cunninging wish and the tops the only major difference is in our choice of counterspells. I dont really like misdirection as it is still card disadvantage in a deck that needs all the cards in hand it can get, and I dont really mind waiting an extra turn for flusterstorm/dispel/divirt/spellpierce mana; but I can totally see how if you were just trying to jam the combo as hard and as fast as possible it makes sense.
If I were trying to jam it out, I play Daze. You're not suppose to lose to randomness jank because those percentages are so tiny although it happens rarely. I rather take my chances to bet against those percentages because such percentages are low and rely on pure luck most of the time. I rather stabilize my percentage to have protection to combo off than to deal with stupid **** afterwards. I guess Cunning Wish might be good for weird decks that play fair like Maverick, Goblins, Death and Taxes, etc. I may see why it might be good there. Who still plays decks like these nowadays? They are just not good enough to play against fast pace combo decks like Ant, Tes or Goblin Charbelcher. Even when you play against these top tier combo decks, with you only play Force and Cunning Wish, you have very few chances of drawing them in your opening hand. Sometimes, you will lose if you don't have a counter to stop them from comboing on you.
This is a combo/control deck to me. Our decks aren't initially the same so I don't know what you're so happy about.
Right now, I have 2 Omniscience, -1 Personal Tutor, + 2 Jace, the Mindsculptor.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't take Life for granted. Enjoy what you got. Nothing last forever.
again, wouldnt play omniscience less than 3x if i had intuition in the list at all (you cant dream halls emrakul and sometimes show and tell can be dangerous)
how have those jaces been working out for you?
As for the protection package 4xFoW is standard, but again I find 1 for 1 much better than misdirect if i need to play the control route. What specific cards in what decks are you using misdirect? fluster/dispel just seem so much better vs counterspells, and misdrirection is still card disadvantage vs discard when spell pierce and divirt can do the same thing.
Seems like we both play 8 interaction spells. I really would suggest trying out a cunning wish over an intuiton main deck, you can shift that one intuition to the SB, so that it retains that functionality while it can also grab a misdirect or other relevant protection spell
EDIT: Really like jace, going up to 2. also trying 1x Misdirect of dispel MD, does about the same thing
'nother thought, what if you cut down to one omnscience and added a Lab-man, that way you dont even need a combat step and can win solely off dreamhalls? Might have to test that out
I haven't got the chance to test it, but in theory, I believe in will do well because against a control deck that is 1 less counter on the combo that goes to countering Jace.
I feel like Lab Maniac is a side option if Emrakul doesn't work. I rather have a can-trip/tutor at that slot. In no doubt, it is a good idea to consider. I wish I had room. If I ever had a bad hand with him in it and no can-trip, it would be a terrible card in that situation. I hope that doesn't come often as it shouldn't.
It's actually a considerable thought to replace Jace with top to make mana curve a tiny bit lower, but in any case, I'll have to test out Jace does in this deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't take Life for granted. Enjoy what you got. Nothing last forever.
Not going to lie I find I have a hard time following what you are saying dcosiem throught the grammar/broken English.
Lab man was my original plan to run along side emrakul. I actually didn't do it on account if not being sure where I had my lab man. Going that route I would for sure play top. In fact it is also a reason I wanted to play ak's so badly. Although I also think I could just focus on lab man as the win con at the point. Show an tell does just steal wins though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I think it all comes down to where you want the choke point of your combo to be.
The beauty of the Emrakul kill is that you can both show and tell him in, or 'cast' him with omnscience. This means that show and tell AND dream halls-> enter infinite both work as routes to victory. The more you cut down on omnscience, the more reliant you are on finding and resolving an enter the infinite, which is why I like to play atleast 6 of those two cards.
Adding Lab man definately increases your realiance on enter the infinite, which can be fine if you are using it to dodge hate that hits emrakul, but means that your choke point is now a single card that can still be extracted (and that you can only run 4x at most and still need to find while also having *just enough* protection to resolve it). As for "Aking through' the deck: I dont think that is actually a reasonable thing to do (if you want to win with labman without using enter). 7cards starting hand gets you to 53 cards left. the first AK draws 1, second 2, third 3, forth 4, for a total of 10 cards/8 mana, (43 left). then even assuming you play every cantrip is another 12 cards/12 mana, then every fetchland is another 7 cards (over 7 turns to boot) which brings us down to 24 cards. Even if you play 4x intuition grabing three cards out of your deck is only another 12 cards/12 mana still means that you can -in magical christmas land- only win after 12 turns at best, which is way WAY to slow for legacy.
As for AKing for card advantage: I think that Jace, is just a better all around CA effect, you dont have to run him 4x like you do for AK, and hes is just powerful where AK+intuition is 'cute'. Brainstorm effects are STUPIDLY strong in this deck, in my set up with 7 basics and 9 fetches, Jace is probably worth it as nothing more than a four mana sorcery: at the point in the game I almost always can set up the win the very next turn, never mind the rest of the utility he brings. And I agree with how jace is the perfect FoW bait, dcosiem, they HAVE to counter him or quickly get buried in card advantage.
I think ultimately that is what i am trying to communicate here, I never want to go below 3x omniscience/3x enter the infinite because both offer similar kills but are sufficiently different as to require different hate. And I love leaving my options open. That is why i disagree so venhimately with reducing omnscience's numbers.
...the ak plan was to have more instant ways to draw with a lab in play which I was lacking with sorcery speed draw.
It's fine if you don't want to go below those numbers. I am questioning your statement of them offering similar kills. My point has continues to be enter is awful without dream halls it omni. It is therefore on par with emrakul as a win con. My plan is that I can play my deck ideally without a reliance on other cards to play them. The other cards are there to speed things up. It's obviously going to be faster to win if I have dream hall/omni in play. If I can't, or they get exterpaited, I still want to be able to win.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Not going to lie I find I have a hard time following what you are saying dcosiem throught the grammar/broken English.
Lab man was my original plan to run along side emrakul. I actually didn't do it on account if not being sure where I had my lab man. Going that route I would for sure play top. In fact it is also a reason I wanted to play ak's so badly. Although I also think I could just focus on lab man as the win con at the point. Show an tell does just steal wins though.
Who are you to tell me that I have broken English. ROFL. Speak for yourself fool! Oh, you're Canadian. I should have known Canadians can't write English well. Go back to grammer school because your grammer is atrocious.
@HenryF I haven't got to test how the deck runs with 2 Omniscience, but I understand why you play feel like having to go no less than 3. Maybe, you're right. I don't know. I'll have to test it. I may play 1 single Intuition and put in the Omniscience back in. I just like the idea that Intuition serves in this deck-obtaining win part of combo play. If you're casting intuition, then you're mostly likely comboing off the next turn. More or less of the time, you're casting intuition during the end step of your opponent's turn. Most of the time, intuition goes uncountered. Intuition also acts as a good tutor to cast Enter the Infinite or an Emrakul. It really helps finishing the combo in style. To have none in the deck, would be terrible.
I feel like running singleton Divert, Flusterstorm in your deck list seems a bit odd, where I run 2 Misdirection and 2 Flusterstom. Such cards in your deck, keeps you from being hit by discard on the turn 1 plays against Jund, Esper if Misdirection is in your hand. Esperblade is big in DC. Therefore, I need it. Flusterstorm is also nice to use against combo if your opponent is a combo deck. You have such a nice match-up against unfair combo decks that it makes this deck worth playing because at least in my area, it's all combo and control. There are no fair decks being played. They don't exist or at least, they are rare.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't take Life for granted. Enjoy what you got. Nothing last forever.
I'm sorry if you were offended by that. Reading some of your posts it feels like you are trying to say multiple things at the same time so I find it unclear as to what you are saying. No need to attack me for it. Also it does not help your case to attack my grammar/English and spell grammar wrong.
Back on track now; the question of the day, combo or control? I think this is where my issue with deck design for dream halls is. The win is via dream halls, that seems obvious. The deck plays control to resolve and win via dream halls. This also seems clear. How the deck wants to play is the design issue. The fast combo plan makes me feel I should play sneak show. It combos in a simpler, cleaner package. Dream halls I think fits into the control plan. It is ok being slower as it is usually built to win on the combo turn without having to pass the turn.
Agree/disagree?
I think I agree with this to the point I want to update dream halls by ignoring the emrakul idea for perhaps the lab man idea. Something like this can immediately focus the deck and free up design space.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
You can say whatever you want. I believe my grammer and english is perfect. If you disagree, I don't care because I think you're dead wrong. LOL. I'm sorry I attacked you, but you asked for it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't take Life for granted. Enjoy what you got. Nothing last forever.
It's fine if you don't want to go below those numbers. I am questioning your statement of them offering similar kills. My point has continues to be enter is awful without dream halls it omni. It is therefore on par with emrakul as a win con. My plan is that I can play my deck ideally without a reliance on other cards to play them. The other cards are there to speed things up. It's obviously going to be faster to win if I have dream hall/omni in play. If I can't, or they get exterpaited, I still want to be able to win.
the converse of this is that you cant win with dreamhalls (aka not show and tell) without also using Enter (which gets then the 1x or 2x omnscience) OR using dream halls to cast omnscience which then cast emrakul.
The point is that more omnscience makes show and tell better AND dream halls better.
As for you dcosiem, my point wasnt that you should run that particular split of one mana interaction spells (i have posted time and time again that you should pick the best one for your meta). My point is that I question weather you should run misdirect at all. Turn one discard against me on the draw isnt really that scary when any two of 4xShow and tell/4xdreamhalls/3xomniscience/4xenter the infinite/3x emrakul/1xintuition/1xcunning wish will result in a win. The way I built my deck, they pretty much have to helbent lock me (and even then i can win with creative use of sensie's top).
With that in mind, Misdirection is only card advantage vs hymn, and is still card parity vs thoughtsieze/inquisition/FoW, and is card disadvantage vs regular counters. If they ARE playing those cards though, then presumably their deck is better positioned to win when both players have low resources, which is why (outside of FoW) I want to play the best (U) costing counters available.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I would rather play control first over all in on show and tell. Again I think that's where the difference is.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
show+emrakul
show+omni->enter the infinite
show+omni-> cantrip/intuition into emrakul
show+dream halls (plus blue card)-> enter the infinite
dream halls (+blue card)-> enter the infinite
You play 8 cards that require you to also discard/remove another blue card. One of those cards is dreamhalls (aka one of the combo pieces you are looking for), the other is FoW (which is the best protection spell in most cases). The cards you are playing instead are intuition spell snare and preordain (aka cards to find your combo pieces) you should just play more combo pieces.
When you are playing a combo deck as powerful as this, you dont need to play control, you just need to not lose before you win.
Im not going "all in" on omni, I just have more ways to combo than you do.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
except you are wrong? how hard is it to understand that more combo pieces means more likely to see a game winning combo.
I play just as many dream halls as you do
I play just as many show and tells as you do
I play just as many cantrips as you do (and get to hold on to more blue cards more often, you were going to play that land anyways, might as well get even more value out of your fetches)
I play two less counterspells than you do (spellsnare has me scratching my head, why would you ever play this? i would understand pierce/dispel/fluster/divert/misdirection/daze as they better against a wider variety of counterspells and discard)
I play more omniscience than you (meaning more cards to pair with show and tell, the same amount of cards to dreamhalls and the same amount of cards to pitch to force)
Yes, you do play more intuitions, but intuition is really really bad with dream halls, it means that you have even MORE cards in hand that you cant pitch to it
my list doesnt have to cast show and tell any more than yours does, and is much better vs the common interactions that top teir decks play. Omniscience can be discarded to dreamhalls to cast enter the infinite just as well as any other blue card
im going to stand by what i said earlier:
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Now, taking those intuitions out for more protection, that I can definitely understand, and is a meta call. But as you have it now, your cantrip suit is sub par. And i am going to keep on harping on it till you try top over preordain 3 and 4 and realize its better.
If anyone is going more "all in" on anything YOU ARE! "i would rather play with just this(aka less total) combo piece"
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
(I get that you dont want to be vulnerable to O-ring/D-sphere, my deck is just as good as winning with dream halls as yours is <possibly even better, the first sensei's top is worth the same as one ponder except it cost (2) instead of U, after that, you save a cantrip in hand every time you draw a fetch>, My list has just the same capabality to hold back on Show and tell as your does, but has even more options when i can show and tell with impunity meaning it is a better plan versus the field and the same plan vs the hate that you are trying to dodge)
You say that my deck is more "all in" and then you go about reducing the possible options you have <--- does not compute
Post your current list lets see where you are
With that said, I do think there is room to explore if intuition+accumulated knowledge is better than the current cantrip suite, and the question of how many interaction spells the deck should run is a valid one (i think 8 is the sweet spot, 4 FoWs, 3 appropriet one mana counters and 1 mise Wish), and I would really like to know how many pitch cards this deck can support (is two misdirects to many? what about one?) and we probably should work out what the best ratio of fetches to basics to grim monoliths are. but as it is right now, i can tell you 4brainstorm/4ponder/4preordian is not nearly as good as 4brainstorm/4ponder/2preordian/2sensei's top
4 show and tell
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 emrakul, the aeon's torn
4 force of will
I'm certain those cards will be main deck. Enter and omni I'm not sure what the quantity should be but that is also affected by other cards. I keep mentioning mind bomb dream halls I used to play. Resolving dream halls meant I could cycle my deck indefinitely. Without it the deck was still versatile enough in that it could still cast key spells. That the sweet spot I'm after.
Like I mentioned the ak plan is great purely because it works so well with dream halls. Intuition makes it quite strong to. The draw for intuition is that it gives me both draw and tutor potential main deck. During the tournament with the jank list casting 2 intuitions wins the game but casting that many also says changes were needed.
Either way there's a lot to look at and consider. Think my focus is more on the delver idea right now though.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Here is my deck list.
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Polluted Delta
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
7 Island
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Preordain
4 Dream Halls
2 Flusterstorm
2 Misdirection
2 Intuition
1 Personal Tutor
3 Enter the Infinite.
I like Sensei top in this deck, if I could, I would find a some way to put in. Maybe, take out 2 preordain's or 2 counter spells, but I feel that both top and preordain are basically the same thing. Sensei top is really helpful to be able to shuffle away dead cards at the top of your deck. In this deck, you do get a lot of dead cards at the top; therefore, it is valuable. Sometimes, you don't always have as many can-trips as you would like so Sensei's top is another can-trip. Why waste 2 slots for Sensei's top to smooth out draws which Ponder and Preordain is suppose to do then just having a tutor that gets you the card that you need. For this reason, I run 2 Intuition. I don't run 3 because I feel that my deck becomes more clunky if I do. For this reason, I run 1 Personal Tutor. In any case, if I need a Show and Tell or Enter the Infinite, Personal Tutor will suffice. I will use Intuition for getting like a free counterspell or some piece of my combo.
I like the idea of having 8 counter spells in this deck because it makes my deck more resilient to control decks. It also puts me in the control position as well.
I run only 3 emrakul, 3 omniscience, and 3 Enter the Infinite because with all the testing I've done, if you have 4 of each, sometimes you have hands that you have nothing but these cards in 2s, and it's frustrating that you have to wait on a top deck for a can-trip or something to make your hands better. For this reason, Intuition is solvable to be able to pick-up one of these combo pieces in order for you to win.
You cannot win on turn 2 against a control deck without a lot of resistance going back at you. For this reason, Cunning Wish is a fail. If your opponent beats you are a rare piece of luck he has received from the Magic gods, then it wasn't meant to be. For some reason, he lucked out on the small percentage to get what he needs to beat you. I'm not all about that. I'm all about playing consistently as possible, and to have things in my control to do what I need to do to win. I don't want to rely on luck if I'm so able to not to.
I just had an awesome idea: I think I might take out an Omniscience and that Personal Tutor to put in 2 Jace, the Mindculptor. LOL. Wild, right?
I like how you 'disagree' with me, and then post nearly the same decklist. You dont know how happy that makes me feel. I play a 3/4 split of omnscience/enter the infinite but i could easily see going down to 3 of both. if you ever play less than 3 of either then intuition becomes useless as a tutor (one omnscience means you almost have to play 4 enters, if the first one gets countered then you only have vanishingly few ways to actually win.
I would caution against ever playing city of traitors in this type of deck (and would play the 4th tomb over the 1st city) because part of the strength of this deck is how many must-deal-with-now cards it plays, and how quickly we can reload after a 'failed' combo (sometimes the plan is to run them out of counters). one of the *last* things you want to do is give them free wastelands against our mono-blue combo deck.
I like how personal tutor can grab enter/show and tell so I will have to test it out, but I dont like how it is card disadvantage.
I think it is hysterical how no one reads threads anymore (we are only on page 3 it really isnt that hard) so i will just quote myself as to why cunning wish is in the deck (hint: it isnt for control).
from page one:
it ISNT FOR CONTROL, its an i-dont-want-to-lose-to-randomness protection card that can be turned into an intuition that can be turned into a combo win when it isnt needed. Its like playing more cards in less slots. I hear a protection spell that is ALSO a combo card is good. Of course it gets sided out for better things when it isnt needed. This deck has tons of room in its SB, as you cant really side too much in without the risk of over-diluting the deck
You should absolutely take out 2 preodains for 2 tops. You dont ever want to see multiple tops, but they turn every fetchland into an effective cantrip and can really mean the differnce between having enough blue cards for dreamhalls+free counters and not.
Besides cunninging wish and the tops the only major difference is in our choice of counterspells. I dont really like misdirection as it is still card disadvantage in a deck that needs all the cards in hand it can get, and I dont really mind waiting an extra turn for flusterstorm/dispel/divirt/spellpierce mana; but I can totally see how if you were just trying to jam the combo as hard and as fast as possible it makes sense.
This is a combo/control deck to me. Our decks aren't initially the same so I don't know what you're so happy about.
Right now, I have 2 Omniscience, -1 Personal Tutor, + 2 Jace, the Mindsculptor.
how have those jaces been working out for you?
As for the protection package 4xFoW is standard, but again I find 1 for 1 much better than misdirect if i need to play the control route. What specific cards in what decks are you using misdirect? fluster/dispel just seem so much better vs counterspells, and misdrirection is still card disadvantage vs discard when spell pierce and divirt can do the same thing.
Seems like we both play 8 interaction spells. I really would suggest trying out a cunning wish over an intuiton main deck, you can shift that one intuition to the SB, so that it retains that functionality while it can also grab a misdirect or other relevant protection spell
EDIT: Really like jace, going up to 2. also trying 1x Misdirect of dispel MD, does about the same thing
I feel like Lab Maniac is a side option if Emrakul doesn't work. I rather have a can-trip/tutor at that slot. In no doubt, it is a good idea to consider. I wish I had room. If I ever had a bad hand with him in it and no can-trip, it would be a terrible card in that situation. I hope that doesn't come often as it shouldn't.
It's actually a considerable thought to replace Jace with top to make mana curve a tiny bit lower, but in any case, I'll have to test out Jace does in this deck.
Lab man was my original plan to run along side emrakul. I actually didn't do it on account if not being sure where I had my lab man. Going that route I would for sure play top. In fact it is also a reason I wanted to play ak's so badly. Although I also think I could just focus on lab man as the win con at the point. Show an tell does just steal wins though.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
The beauty of the Emrakul kill is that you can both show and tell him in, or 'cast' him with omnscience. This means that show and tell AND dream halls-> enter infinite both work as routes to victory. The more you cut down on omnscience, the more reliant you are on finding and resolving an enter the infinite, which is why I like to play atleast 6 of those two cards.
Adding Lab man definately increases your realiance on enter the infinite, which can be fine if you are using it to dodge hate that hits emrakul, but means that your choke point is now a single card that can still be extracted (and that you can only run 4x at most and still need to find while also having *just enough* protection to resolve it). As for "Aking through' the deck: I dont think that is actually a reasonable thing to do (if you want to win with labman without using enter). 7cards starting hand gets you to 53 cards left. the first AK draws 1, second 2, third 3, forth 4, for a total of 10 cards/8 mana, (43 left). then even assuming you play every cantrip is another 12 cards/12 mana, then every fetchland is another 7 cards (over 7 turns to boot) which brings us down to 24 cards. Even if you play 4x intuition grabing three cards out of your deck is only another 12 cards/12 mana still means that you can -in magical christmas land- only win after 12 turns at best, which is way WAY to slow for legacy.
As for AKing for card advantage: I think that Jace, is just a better all around CA effect, you dont have to run him 4x like you do for AK, and hes is just powerful where AK+intuition is 'cute'. Brainstorm effects are STUPIDLY strong in this deck, in my set up with 7 basics and 9 fetches, Jace is probably worth it as nothing more than a four mana sorcery: at the point in the game I almost always can set up the win the very next turn, never mind the rest of the utility he brings. And I agree with how jace is the perfect FoW bait, dcosiem, they HAVE to counter him or quickly get buried in card advantage.
I think ultimately that is what i am trying to communicate here, I never want to go below 3x omniscience/3x enter the infinite because both offer similar kills but are sufficiently different as to require different hate. And I love leaving my options open. That is why i disagree so venhimately with reducing omnscience's numbers.
It's fine if you don't want to go below those numbers. I am questioning your statement of them offering similar kills. My point has continues to be enter is awful without dream halls it omni. It is therefore on par with emrakul as a win con. My plan is that I can play my deck ideally without a reliance on other cards to play them. The other cards are there to speed things up. It's obviously going to be faster to win if I have dream hall/omni in play. If I can't, or they get exterpaited, I still want to be able to win.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Who are you to tell me that I have broken English. ROFL. Speak for yourself fool! Oh, you're Canadian. I should have known Canadians can't write English well. Go back to grammer school because your grammer is atrocious.
Flame Warning.
I feel like running singleton Divert, Flusterstorm in your deck list seems a bit odd, where I run 2 Misdirection and 2 Flusterstom. Such cards in your deck, keeps you from being hit by discard on the turn 1 plays against Jund, Esper if Misdirection is in your hand. Esperblade is big in DC. Therefore, I need it. Flusterstorm is also nice to use against combo if your opponent is a combo deck. You have such a nice match-up against unfair combo decks that it makes this deck worth playing because at least in my area, it's all combo and control. There are no fair decks being played. They don't exist or at least, they are rare.
Back on track now; the question of the day, combo or control? I think this is where my issue with deck design for dream halls is. The win is via dream halls, that seems obvious. The deck plays control to resolve and win via dream halls. This also seems clear. How the deck wants to play is the design issue. The fast combo plan makes me feel I should play sneak show. It combos in a simpler, cleaner package. Dream halls I think fits into the control plan. It is ok being slower as it is usually built to win on the combo turn without having to pass the turn.
Agree/disagree?
I think I agree with this to the point I want to update dream halls by ignoring the emrakul idea for perhaps the lab man idea. Something like this can immediately focus the deck and free up design space.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
the converse of this is that you cant win with dreamhalls (aka not show and tell) without also using Enter (which gets then the 1x or 2x omnscience) OR using dream halls to cast omnscience which then cast emrakul.
The point is that more omnscience makes show and tell better AND dream halls better.
As for you dcosiem, my point wasnt that you should run that particular split of one mana interaction spells (i have posted time and time again that you should pick the best one for your meta). My point is that I question weather you should run misdirect at all. Turn one discard against me on the draw isnt really that scary when any two of 4xShow and tell/4xdreamhalls/3xomniscience/4xenter the infinite/3x emrakul/1xintuition/1xcunning wish will result in a win. The way I built my deck, they pretty much have to helbent lock me (and even then i can win with creative use of sensie's top).
With that in mind, Misdirection is only card advantage vs hymn, and is still card parity vs thoughtsieze/inquisition/FoW, and is card disadvantage vs regular counters. If they ARE playing those cards though, then presumably their deck is better positioned to win when both players have low resources, which is why (outside of FoW) I want to play the best (U) costing counters available.