MTG Salvation

1.0 INTRODUCTION

I have been playing Legacy and Standard knights extensively for the past year and have tried all the different variants i could. All the knight variants i have played so far have always been associated with white and now i'm keen to try something totally different.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=322579

Moving away from knights's traditional color of W, i wanted to try a Mono-black knights list since black is the next color with most knights creature archtype.

However it is proving to be a challenge for me as many of the better black knights are high in casting cost. The 2cc are generally crappy and worse of all there is no 1 drop knight for black! Unfortunately i'm also not very familiar with black spells and i also do not have most of the black staple legacy cards (my collections are all mostly white-based cards).

Since black does not have 1-drop knights i'll go for some cheap discard spells to ensure i have an opening play other than Aether Vial.

To be frank i'm quite clueless about how the deck will pant out so please feel free to help in making it better. I do have budget constraints(not keen to splash money on Black staples) although i wish it can be competitive against a Tier 2 Legacy deck.

2.0 DECKLISTS

2.1 Return of Darth Knights (Original Version)

2.2 Return of Darth Knights (Second Edition)


2.3 Return of Darth Knights (3rd Edition)

Reasons for playing Mono-Black Legacy knights:

• Make use of Liliana of the Veil synergy with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge.
• Traditional discard spells & Liliana combine well to destroy opponents hand.
• A very stable land base with only Basic swamps and Wastelands.
• Nameless Inversion & Knights synergy with Liliana and Haakon, discard Nameless inversion/Knights with Liliana, playback with Haakon.
• Cabal Therapy synergy with knights recurring theme via Haakon.
• With a reliable discard outlet from Liliana we can play 3 or 4 copies of Haakon.

Basically the concept of the deck is hand devastation follow by Haakon & recurring Knights Kill.


2.4 Return of Darth Knights (4th Edition)


2.5 Return of Darth Knights (5th Edition)

Changes Made:

• Added in 4x Gravecrawler to give the deck some early board presence and pressure.
• Darkblast to replace 1x Nameless Inversion.
• Replace some of the Human Knights with Zombie Knights to have better interaction with Gravecrawler.

The problem with mono-b knights is that they lack synergy. There really is no black knight lord, and black nights really don't have any supportive abilities (Besides the legend). Like you pointed out, they are for the most part higher on the mana curve than other tribes, which more-or-less precludes too much aggro. Furthermore, most of them are just color hate against white, so you will be much stronger against a white deck, but severely disadvantaged against a blue/red deck, and decks like that usually aren't fun to run in casual play due to the rock-paper-scissors-type situations that result.

I think you could make a significantly better BW Knights deck, or perhaps even some sort of knight-based reanimator theme centered on Hakkon, Stromgald Scourge. I just don't think mono black knights as a tribe in and of themselves has the synergy and power to compete with other tribes.

Quote from Paulie

The problem with mono-b knights is that they lack synergy. There really is no black knight lord, and black nights really don't have any supportive abilities (Besides the legend). Like you pointed out, they are for the most part higher on the mana curve than other tribes, which more-or-less precludes too much aggro. Furthermore, most of them are just color hate against white, so you will be much stronger against a white deck, but severely disadvantaged against a blue/red deck, and decks like that usually aren't fun to run in casual play due to the rock-paper-scissors-type situations that result.

I think you could make a significantly better BW Knights deck, or perhaps even some sort of knight-based reanimator theme centered on Hakkon, Stromgald Scourge. I just don't think mono black knights as a tribe in and of themselves has the synergy and power to compete with other tribes.

Yes, i agree with almost everything you are saying here.

Basically i have exhausted all the different combinations W could possibly have(if you happen to see my signature on the legacy knights primer). Black as a mono-color is also very weak against artifact/enchantments.

Anyway against blue/red the deck isnt so bad.

Let me explain:
Against W=no brainer.
Against R= Phyrexian Crusader and recuring knights via Haakon, he can burn all day and i can cast my creatures again. If he choose to burn the player he can do it against any deck so being mono-black knight is imaterial.
Against U= Once i resolve a Haakon in the graveyard his counterspells are redundant.
Against B= 4x Stillmoon
Against G= No protection

The deck can win attrition wars against other tribes. Buried alive is my CA(condition is if Haakon resolves)

Unfortunately although what you say about mono-black knights is correct, i'm not sure if it's as bad as you make it out to be;)

Phyrexian Crusader, not Mirran Crusader. And it doesn't have protection from green.

for protection from green, what about sword of feast and famine ?

Quote from ryzorz

Phyrexian Crusader, not Mirran Crusader. And it doesn't have protection from green.

My bad, played too much W knights until i got confused. Edited the post to the correct crusader.

Quote from zeromd

for protection from green, what about sword of feast and famine ?

I cant seem to find space for more swords, but i'll have removal spells to deal with green creature threats. Haakon and recuring knights can also help to stall against big green creatures.

Phyrexian Crusader is rather lousy with non-infect creatures. Which is too bad since a non-infect knight with protection from red and white would have been really awesome.

I would max out Stromgald Crusader long before maxing out Knight of Dusk and/or Stromgald Knight.

Unholy Grotto is sexy tech to protect Haakon or Nameless Inversion from gy hate. While not a knight, Carrion Feeder can protect Haakon from StP or PtE and is a decent 1 drop.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Filth makes for lulzy evasion if you are up to it.

Cabal Therapy is amazing in mono black knights.dek. Therapy has great synergy with Duress and isn't hard to flashback in a deck with recurring creatures.

Quote from Sid Wicked

Phyrexian Crusader is rather lousy with non-infect creatures. Which is too bad since a non-infect knight with protection from red and white would have been really awesome.

I would max out Stromgald Crusader long before maxing out Knight of Dusk and/or Stromgald Knight.

Unholy Grotto is sexy tech to protect Haakon or Nameless Inversion from gy hate. While not a knight, Carrion Feeder can protect Haakon from StP or PtE and is a decent 1 drop.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Filth makes for lulzy evasion if you are up to it.

Cabal Therapy is amazing in mono black knights.dek. Therapy has great synergy with Duress and isn't hard to flashback in a deck with recurring creatures.

Yeah, if Phyrexian Crusader didnt have infect he would be very strong in the knight deck, that said, i'm still keen to try him out as his protections are very relevant.

I'll take your advice and use Stromgald Crusader instead, i think the evasion part is really useful here. He may die easily but as long as Haakon comes onboard he can die a few more times for all I care.

Both Haakon & Carrion Feeder can be recurred by Unholy Grotto, my only headache will be to discard Haakon again via my own discard spells but it beats losing him forever to graveyard hate. And Carrion Feeder really has synergy with the deck. Anyway i might go with 4x Cabal Therapy & 4x Duress.

New decklist below with more discard and Carrion Feeder:

Since you're mono-b Lashwrithe could be cool. Cover of Darkness gives all your knights intimidate. Bad Moon + Cover of Darkness could technically work as your lord.

Oh man, how could I forgot about Lashwrithe? I think i can do with one copy of Lashwrithe on top of the 2 Jitte i'm running. However that would mean taking out one more knight from the list.

The list is quite tight now, trying to play a reanimator & discard strategy at the same time.

Cover of Darkness is a good one, if i had an equipment toolbox via Enlightened Tutor it could do a mass evasion FTW! Otherwise i'm not keen to run as a singleton or two and dilute the deck further.

I can't believe you are not putting 4 Hymns? Here is what I would try with your list:

Creatures [20]
4 Black Knight to 2 Knight of Stromgald
(I am skeptical with him in Legacy as he is pretty much a 2/2 Pro White & First Strike that cannot improve. Stromgald Crusader and Knight of Stromgald has the impt Pro-white against Plow and late game when you have mana to burn, they are powerful when you can keep recurring.

4 Arrogant Bloodlord
(I will prefer him over Phyrexian Crusader as unless you are going pure infect, it is very hard to attack 2 life totals. Arrogant Bloodlord in Legacy is good because the clock is high, out of Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Helix and Firesprout range. Whatever weenies opponent have that are 1/1 can easily be dealt with your Nameless Inversion)

4 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge (Main Engine should put 4?)
2 Lashwrite (really good in Standard, I use it with Recurring Skeletons)

Spells [20]
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Cabal Therapy -> For this deck, I think you cannot go all 4 Cabal Therapies maindeck as unlike Dredge, your creatures while they can recur, they are not outright free like Dredge and will set you back if you fizzle a blind name. Duress has a higher chance to hit and mid-game when you roughly know your opponent's cards, then you Cabal Therapy and hope to hit at least 1, then flashback and hit another one. Game 2 and 3 bring 2 more from SB.

4 Duress

4 Entomb -> Should play 4 if possible? Strictly better than Buried Alive in your case

4 Go for the throat -> I would prefer Diabolic Edict as I feel this deck can take head-on most Legacy creatures like KoTR, Gofy but fatties like Emrakul, Progenitus cheated in will give you a headache. You also have Nameless Inversion to deal with Noble Hierach & Bob. Or if you want to try some Synergy with Haakon and your deck's resiliency, Pox is a good choice

2 Nameless Inversion

Lands [20]
20 Swamp Lands for your deck I would prefer the generic 20 swamps with no fetchlands as you need lotsa mana to recur. More Swamps makes Lashwrite good too and you always have creatures to recur and equip

I'll probably take out the 4 Duress for Hymns.

I prefer Black Knight because i already have 4x pumpable knights in Stillmoon, maybe i'll go for a mixture of 3 Black knight and 1 Stromgald Crusader.

I'm not sure about Arrogant Bloodlord as they are also quite a number of smaller creatures in legacy so at 3cc i would rather go maximum on Stillmoon and Phyrexian Crusader.

The 4 maindecked Cabal Therapy is one of the ways to discard Haakon if the entomb package fails in it's task.

I probably need to increase on Nameless Inversion though.

Any more comments on my choices?

1 Kulrath Knight <- nice with infect
1-2 Ashenmoor Liege <- Nice with infect
2 Nameless Inversion <- you can't cast in response unless two or more are in your yard.

Quote from Sun_shine_dan

1 Kulrath Knight <- nice with infect
1-2 Ashenmoor Liege <- Nice with infect
2 Nameless Inversion <- you can't cast in response unless two or more are in your yard.

How is Ashenmoor Liege good with infect?

Kulrath Knight casting cost is too high to justify playing it. I would rather use Liliana Vess at 5cc. But i do appreciate your suggestions.

I would consider Innocent Blood here for creature hate since you don't care about losing creatures really.

Quote from Steeldragon36

I would consider Innocent Blood here for creature hate since you don't care about losing creatures really.

I think Innocent Blood is definitely a good sideboard card especially against the likes of Progenitus or Eldrazis. Targeted removal such as Go for the throat is better IMO as it has more relevant applications. The deck also has Hymn to Tourach and Cabal Therapy to remove their cheat enablers such as Natural Order / Show and Tell.

At the moment I'm not sure if Inquisition of Kozilek or Duress is better here. Duress can take out Jace TMS which is widely played in my meta but Inquisition can briefly stop aggro decks or Zoo from overrunning me earlier.

I am rather new to the site but I used to love Haakon.

Mercenary Knight is really, really good with him. As is Nameless Inversion (not sure if i saw that in your list)

Quote from septicdragon

I am rather new to the site but I used to love Haakon.

Mercenary Knight is really, really good with him. As is Nameless Inversion (not sure if i saw that in your list)

Welcome to the site! I saw your post in the Modern Ninja thread, nice to know we both share the same interest in Knights and Ninjas...

Did you read my Legacy Knights primer before (link below)? It has some analysis on the role of Haakon, the Stromgald Scourge, Mercenary Knight and Nameless Inversion in Legacy Knights.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=322579

Here is my amended Mono-Black Knight deck.



I had playtested the deck against Maverick, UW stoneblade, 43 lands, Zoo, NO Bant and Bant and I realised that Wasteland was really massive in those matchups, I'm thinking Sinkhole could really strengthen the deck significantly.

By the way I was using 4x Gitaxian Probe in my previous build which didn't seem to do much other than it's synergy with Cabal Therapy thus I felt i might as well give shadow of doubt a shot here. I didnt use Hymn as I didnt want the deck to be too similar to Mono-Black Control. I actually ordered a set of Sinkhole and Shadow of doubt is filling up the seats at the moment.

Is liliana actually good in this deck? She seems more geared for attrition while your deck is aggro. Is her edict ability useful?

Wait, why 4 Shadow of Doubt as a placeholder? Does it do anything for you other than being a 2 mana cantrip? Erm, Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper kind of draw you more cards than it, and 2 life is a paltry sum.

I mean, I agree with Sinkhole taking it's spot, but damn. Seems like a severely random card, lol.

I run a Haakon deck and I find the best thing is mutual discard and dredge:
Delirium Skeins and Bottemless Pit are two of my absolute favorite cards in the deck. I also run 2 Dakmor Salvage for lands in a bind. And Stinkweed Imp to act as early defense and good thick card draw.

Really the only decks that give me a lot of troubles are super aggro decks or reusable graveyard removal decks.

Quote from metalevolence

Is liliana actually good in this deck? She seems more geared for attrition while your deck is aggro. Is her edict ability useful?

Liliana is usually the game-winner card for me here. I have been testing against mostly Tier 1 Legacy decks. Granted I lose a lot of games but a resolved Liliana that hangs around for a while usually win me the game. I have hand discard to protect her against burn/counter before casting, and I don't care about discarding knights into the graveyard since I'm usually able to cast them again when Haakon goes online. Liliana's Edict ability is also good in removing Goyf, Knight of the Reliquary or Tombstalker etc which my nameless inversion is unable to.

Quote from ExImperialDragon

Wait, why 4 Shadow of Doubt as a placeholder? Does it do anything for you other than being a 2 mana cantrip? Erm, Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper kind of draw you more cards than it, and 2 life is a paltry sum.

I mean, I agree with Sinkhole taking it's spot, but damn. Seems like a severely random card, lol.

Shadow of Doubt is good against fetches, Green Sun and SFM. It's good when I decide to play the deck as a tempo deck. Depending on the hand, I can play tempo by removing his one drop with Inquisition, Waste his first land & Shadow of Doubt on his second turn fetchlands. Next turn Liliana and it's good game, otherwise opponent is already severely hampered.

If my opening hand does not allow me to play tempo I'll go for the aggro route, overwhelming him with knights and at the same time stop him from searching for answers with Green Sun or SFM. It also stops the "commonly Green Sun tutor target for anti-graveyard card" Scavenging Ooze from coming out and messing with our Haakon plan. It can also cantrip if I need more ammunition.

I'm can't wait to put Sinkhole into the deck, at the moment Shadow of Doubt is so random my opponent always goes - WHAT?

Quote from Sun_shine_dan

I run a Haakon deck and I find the best thing is mutual discard and dredge:
Delirium Skeins and Bottemless Pit are two of my absolute favorite cards in the deck. I also run 2 Dakmor Salvage for lands in a bind. And Stinkweed Imp to act as early defense and good thick card draw.

Really the only decks that give me a lot of troubles are super aggro decks or reusable graveyard removal decks.

I never quite understand how Dredging works, but I heard Darkblast should be suitable for a Haakon built.

For mutual discard, look no further than Liliana of the Veil.
Delirium Skeins and Bottemless Pit is so painful I don't know if it hurt us as much as it does on them. Also if they managed to land a threat before this 2 cards are around it may be curtains for us.

That's right, as a mid-range deck we are always trying to survive the onslaught against super aggro decks. There's really nothing much we can do if they have a favourable hand of creatures/burn/removal etc.

Scavenging Ooze is also one card which can effectively wreck the Haakon experience.

I think you should look at cards like smother & hymn to tourach.

Inquisition into Hymn is really backbreaking and will easily destroy your opponent hand.

At the moment Hymn to Tourach is contesting with Sinkhole for the same spot. The problem I have with mono-black decks is handling pesky artifacts or enchantments which I have sufficient discard in Cabal Therapy and Inquisition of Kozilek if they are in their opening hand.

My deck is a mid-range aggro deck so another problem is when opponents manage to topdeck or draw into answers. Sinkhole and Wasteland allows me to messed up their manabase sufficiently so they cant cast it even if they draw into it. By then Hmyn is pretty much useless already thus my preference for Sinkhole.

This is the most recent decklist I had, which have managed to get 50% of the games against Zoo - no thanks to Phyrexian Crusader ;).

It also has remarkable success against Bant and W based decks(look at the number of pro-W creatures. It's unintentional though).

So far it also has a decent matchup against the Delver led UGR threshold deck, able to win around 40% of the games.

I find the deck a real blast to play with, and it's very easy to pilot as well.

Any comments?