Okay, so the videos from this weekend are up on my youtube channel. It's the 8 most recent videos (they haven't been named yet, nor edited to add in life totals, etc.) Do note that there is nsfw language in these videos; it is at a gaming store, afterall. I ended up going 1-2 for the day, although I did sneak in a win in both of the matches lost. It'll be fairly evident that I'm pretty rusty with the deck still, and made a handful of errors in play. I'll update here soon with the list that I played.
Hey guys, I just thought I'd let you know that under the new rule changes this deck is now slow play because you cant say hpw many times your loop has to execute before you achieve your game state
It's actually not that slow, certainly not like the Laquatus vs. Eldrazi Titan incident. Each iteration before comboing off, you have a 25% chance of having it in the right order, assuming you don't have a piece in your hand. I've got a couple videos of comboing off, and they each took about 2 and a half minutes. I mean, High Tide takes longer than that.
As it has been said on Facebook, "If a judge tries to stop me, I'll flip over the table". I certainly hope that individual was kidding
Despite the fact that the combo is not actually slow in comparison to other combo decks (because there are no decisions), performing it constitutes slow play. Did I read that right?
@Finn, Someone over at The Source started a thread saying WotC hates you Finn. They keep on nerfing your creations. They make this slow play despite it not actually being slow, and who can forget the mega-nerfing Death and Taxes got when they removed damage on the stack.
From what I understand, the retraction was caused by the uproar over the optional triggers thing so I don't think they will touch the change that this deck is concerned with.
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Legacy:
Death and Taxes
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Urza, Lord High Artificer
The thing that makes me angry, is the fact that they basically say this deck is Slow Play, when, while it could be, it is part of the combo.
When people go off with ANT, TES, any sort of Combo deck, it isn't slow play. I mean, you can't say how many cards you're going to draw off of Ad Nausem before you 1) Get the cards you need, or 2) Kill yourself. So, why wouldn't that be constituted as slow play?
*gets off of soapbox*
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But in all seriousness, would a judge really kick you out of a tournament for playing this deck, unless you get match with the biggest jerk in the world and calls a judge on you? because your still putting narcomoeba's into play and dealing damage/ striping there hand(no less then how breakfast wins or dredge plays) If so this sucks, because i just built this deck like 2 months ago
Wait i know this has nothing to do with this deck but, does this also mean that aluren and hulk reberth is now considered slow play too if you combo out?
I don't think both of those decks would be considered slow play despite the numerous shuffles because you are advancing the board state and you have an exact number of actions before you achieve it whereas this deck, it needs to hit dread return, sharuum, blasting station prior to hitting Emrakul and that's where the ambiguity lies. It can hit it on the first try but it can also go on for 20 tries before you get it. Even though this can be done quickly by flipping fast, the rules say that as long as you can't say the exact number of loops needed, it will be considered slow play. So basically, the rules change hit this deck only, further evidence that WotC does not like Finn very much.
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Legacy:
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EDH: Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!
Urza, Lord High Artificer
From what I've heard so far, the "slow play" rule only really affects decks that could possibly take infinite iterations before they win. Sadly, this includes Four Horsemen if you play as scrupulously as possible. (About every single other infinite loop probably actually takes finite iterations to defeat opponents. For example, one Aluren loop makes your opponent lose 2 life and you gain 1 life. One Four Horsemen loop might just shuffle Emrakul only back in--probability can't exclude the possibility that the milling hits Emrakul first every single time.)
Come to think of it, the Thermopod-Narcomoeba-Emrakul Cephalid Breakfast loop would probably also classify under "slow play" under that rule, as that version could also possibly hit Emrakul first every single time. Finn, they didn't screw just you.
If this becomes a big deal for the deck, then we'll just have to switch to the mimeoplasm kill with no giant spaghetti horse's and tune the deck as such since the mimeoplasm kill doesn't require blasting station/lots of reshuffling. It's bloody annoying though the stupid judge rules associated with this deck. At least at local events I can't get screwed over really. You're still awesome Finn
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
But the emrakul shuffle trigger was what allowed you to play around conventional graveyard hate, so without it, it just becomes a slow reanimator deck don't you think?
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Legacy:
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EDH: Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!
Urza, Lord High Artificer
Not to mention, Emrakul, let us cast all our Cabals to rip their hand to shreds before finishing the combo. IMHO, without it, the deck has lost what made it truly good.
I'm depressed. This has been my competitive Legacy deck for close to a year now and I'm worried I may have to part with it and find something new.
I would ditch the deck. The only reason this deck has a place over Ceph Breakfast is the difficulty to disrupt. Once you need a creature to stick around that advantage is gone. Now, if somebody can think up another wincon that does not use Emrakul that would be splendid. But I bet it will be less powerful.
And thanks for the kind words fellas. Moving on...
I almost forgot. Without the new clear rules on slow play, we could have potentially done something like iterate until only Emrakul and three Exhoing Truth are on the library if you really need to bounce Terg or something. It would take ages, but it could be done. I researched this scenario a long time ago. It was always slow play. The new rules just spell it out better. That is what they are for.
This rule makes no scense, seems wizards wants to shut off combo if possable. there has to be some form of exeption for combo that depends on shuffling emerakul or a similer effect back into the deck multipul times.
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This rule has been in effect for a few months now. Players can call you out for slow play and force you to forfeit the game.
The last part is wrong. Your opponent can very much call you for slow play (now that it is part of the definition), but they cannot force you to forfeit. Nothing can force you to forfeit. Judges can issue game losses for these kind of things, but not force a forfeit.
As for the ruling, I had it explained to me by the Head Judge at SCG Cincy (so take it for what it is). The rule has to do with the likelihood of a specific board state. In the case of this deck, you need to mill 3 Narcomoebas, Dread Return, Sharuum, and Blasting Station before you hit an Emrakul. Since there are random elements involved, you cannot specify a number of iterations of "the loop" that arrives at this board state. You may be able to establish that board quickly, but you cannot give concrete information about how long that could take.
Contrast that with something Cephalid Breakfast (and the reason I asked the Head Judge). You only have to mill the deck once. You can state "I target Cephalid Illusionist 17 times" and the rest works from there. There is not a random element from shuffling involved. You are not trying to land on a one-in-a-thousand random situation. Because of that, they made the Emrakul loop that Four Horsemen uses into a slow play situation. I agree that it sucks, because I like this deck, but I can see where they came from. You can just keep milling and shuffling and still not reasonably advance the board state. Hence the ruling.
My interpretation of that rule is that if it is possible that the game goes into an infinite loop for optimal play, then it is slow play. manaman22 has a great example of why the Four Horsemen combo can end up in an infinite loop.
At least the Cephalid Breakfast combo of Thermopod-Emrakul-Kumano, Master Yamabushi would also be an example of slow play. (Have fun trying to mill 3 Narco's, a Dread Return, and a Thermopod before Emrakul...)
I've played that version of Breakfast, and there were no winners in that game. No one was happy to see that happen. Still not too sure why I played that that day.
Anyway, as for the rules, I think the shortcut rules (716.2) outline how the loop cannot have anything conditional in it. I.E., there cannot be anything that behaves like an "if-then" statement. Things have to be "predictable", and I'm pretty certain that when shuffling is involved, "predictable" is pretty much impossible.
The IPG (4.3) outlines what happens. It's a warning for slow play. There is nothing explicitly keeping you from playing this deck. The rules just make it really hard to do so without racking up a long list of escalating infractions that will result in game and match losses and so on. It's a very bad idea to try to play the deck in a competitive setting, but it is not explicitly barred like cards on the banned list. I wish it wasn't so, but we need to let the deck go unless some new card(s) comes around that let it work again (without slow playing).
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Edit:
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Underground Sea
3x Ancient Tomb
1x Swamp
4x Island
The Engine
3x Mesmeric Orb
4x Basalt Monolith
4x Narcomoeba
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Dread Return
1x Sharuum the Hegemon
1x Blasting Station
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Gitaxian Probe
The Protection
4x Force of Will
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress
1x Crippling Fatigue
3x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Echoing Truth
2x Wipe Away
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Show and Tell
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
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Modern:
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EDH
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As it has been said on Facebook, "If a judge tries to stop me, I'll flip over the table". I certainly hope that individual was kidding
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Despite the fact that the combo is not actually slow in comparison to other combo decks (because there are no decisions), performing it constitutes slow play. Did I read that right?
From what I understand, the retraction was caused by the uproar over the optional triggers thing so I don't think they will touch the change that this deck is concerned with.
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
When people go off with ANT, TES, any sort of Combo deck, it isn't slow play. I mean, you can't say how many cards you're going to draw off of Ad Nausem before you 1) Get the cards you need, or 2) Kill yourself. So, why wouldn't that be constituted as slow play?
*gets off of soapbox*
:symw::symg::symu:Turbo Fog:symu::symg::symw:
Legacy:
Dredge
:symg::symw::symr:Enchantress:symr::symw::symg:
:symg:Combo Elves:symg:
:symr:Burn:symr:
Modern:
:symr::symu:PiF Storm:symu::symr:
EDH
:symr:Norin the Wary:symr:
:symg::symu:Experiment Kraj:symu::symg:
:symu::symb:Wrexial, the Risen Deep:symb::symu:
:symw::symg::symr::symb::symu:Cromat: Mazes End:symu::symb::symr::symg::symw:
Warp World Primer!
Wait i know this has nothing to do with this deck but, does this also mean that aluren and hulk reberth is now considered slow play too if you combo out?
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
Come to think of it, the Thermopod-Narcomoeba-Emrakul Cephalid Breakfast loop would probably also classify under "slow play" under that rule, as that version could also possibly hit Emrakul first every single time. Finn, they didn't screw just you.
Currently Playing:
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WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
I'm depressed. This has been my competitive Legacy deck for close to a year now and I'm worried I may have to part with it and find something new.
BGSpanish InquisitionGB
GFood Chain ElvesG
WUAngry BirdsUW
BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
And thanks for the kind words fellas. Moving on...
I almost forgot. Without the new clear rules on slow play, we could have potentially done something like iterate until only Emrakul and three Exhoing Truth are on the library if you really need to bounce Terg or something. It would take ages, but it could be done. I researched this scenario a long time ago. It was always slow play. The new rules just spell it out better. That is what they are for.
:symw::symg::symu:Turbo Fog:symu::symg::symw:
Legacy:
Dredge
:symg::symw::symr:Enchantress:symr::symw::symg:
:symg:Combo Elves:symg:
:symr:Burn:symr:
Modern:
:symr::symu:PiF Storm:symu::symr:
EDH
:symr:Norin the Wary:symr:
:symg::symu:Experiment Kraj:symu::symg:
:symu::symb:Wrexial, the Risen Deep:symb::symu:
:symw::symg::symr::symb::symu:Cromat: Mazes End:symu::symb::symr::symg::symw:
Warp World Primer!
lets trade:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=509405
BGSpanish InquisitionGB
GFood Chain ElvesG
WUAngry BirdsUW
BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
WOW thats such a bull rule. like you can actualy show you are advancing the game state, mabey not the way wizards likes you to but you really are.
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7700619&postcount=79
(scroll down to the second half of the post for an explanation on 'looping')
BGSpanish InquisitionGB
GFood Chain ElvesG
WUAngry BirdsUW
BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
The last part is wrong. Your opponent can very much call you for slow play (now that it is part of the definition), but they cannot force you to forfeit. Nothing can force you to forfeit. Judges can issue game losses for these kind of things, but not force a forfeit.
As for the ruling, I had it explained to me by the Head Judge at SCG Cincy (so take it for what it is). The rule has to do with the likelihood of a specific board state. In the case of this deck, you need to mill 3 Narcomoebas, Dread Return, Sharuum, and Blasting Station before you hit an Emrakul. Since there are random elements involved, you cannot specify a number of iterations of "the loop" that arrives at this board state. You may be able to establish that board quickly, but you cannot give concrete information about how long that could take.
Contrast that with something Cephalid Breakfast (and the reason I asked the Head Judge). You only have to mill the deck once. You can state "I target Cephalid Illusionist 17 times" and the rest works from there. There is not a random element from shuffling involved. You are not trying to land on a one-in-a-thousand random situation. Because of that, they made the Emrakul loop that Four Horsemen uses into a slow play situation. I agree that it sucks, because I like this deck, but I can see where they came from. You can just keep milling and shuffling and still not reasonably advance the board state. Hence the ruling.
400
At least the Cephalid Breakfast combo of Thermopod-Emrakul-Kumano, Master Yamabushi would also be an example of slow play. (Have fun trying to mill 3 Narco's, a Dread Return, and a Thermopod before Emrakul...)
Anyway, as for the rules, I think the shortcut rules (716.2) outline how the loop cannot have anything conditional in it. I.E., there cannot be anything that behaves like an "if-then" statement. Things have to be "predictable", and I'm pretty certain that when shuffling is involved, "predictable" is pretty much impossible.
The IPG (4.3) outlines what happens. It's a warning for slow play. There is nothing explicitly keeping you from playing this deck. The rules just make it really hard to do so without racking up a long list of escalating infractions that will result in game and match losses and so on. It's a very bad idea to try to play the deck in a competitive setting, but it is not explicitly barred like cards on the banned list. I wish it wasn't so, but we need to let the deck go unless some new card(s) comes around that let it work again (without slow playing).