You could test it out and see how it plays....I personally don't like it much although it really helps some matchups greatly but against gobbo's it doesn't do much if they swarm you likewise with elves.
And as for exalted angel being cut: Some builds still run it. I personally like it a lot since it gains you life, which can be a huge boon in this deck what with aggro beating you over the head and you taking damage from ancient tomb.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
You could test it out and see how it plays....I personally don't like it much although it really helps some matchups greatly but against gobbo's it doesn't do much if they swarm you likewise with elves.
And as for exalted angel being cut: Some builds still run it. I personally like it a lot since it gains you life, which can be a huge boon in this deck what with aggro beating you over the head and you taking damage from ancient tomb.
I would probably stick to Baneslayer Angel over Exalted Angel; while Baneslayer is more streamlined I still live the dream of turn 2 angel beats. Having the chance to randomly blow my opponent out, and consistently come out swinging earlyer than Baneslayer Angel is pretty relevant.
World Queller makes me want to throw in an Ancient Den or two, so I can hit Moxen and Jittes and so on without screwing up my board.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Everything is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this 666 times and you will reach enlightenment.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
But the problem with ancient den is that it's nonbasic and can't be fetched with flagstones of trokair. I love the synergy of flagstones in this deck it's just really good IMO.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I know. Ancient Den actually SUCKS in this deck, but I can probably find a land slot somewhere.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Everything is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this 666 times and you will reach enlightenment.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
I have been playing my stacks deck for a while ( and love it I might add) however... What deck owns us? from what I can see we have a decent match up (or better) against EVERYTHING....
I have been playing my stacks deck for a while ( and love it I might add) however... What deck owns us? from what I can see we have a decent match up (or better) against EVERYTHING....
Any deck that can resolve an Aether Vial is really bad news for Stax.
For many matchups, it comes down to what kind of opening 7 Stax can get (or if you mulligan aggressively) and if it can win the die roll, because that too greatly influences a matchup.
Thanks Chaos. Odd my meta is swamped with goblins (around half) then again I am very luck as far as the coin toss (die roll) goes. Doesn't 3 sphear turn off vile?
Yeah if vial hits the board before you throw out chalice@1 or a 3sphere to stall you are going to be in a world of hurt. Unless you then can set up a lock really fast or remove the vial with seal of cleansing or o-ring you will die by a swarm of goblins unless you have ghostly prison out to stall. It really depends on the gamestate.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Does metalworker help this deck at all? t1/2 metalworker, turn 2/3 empty your hand? Or is it just too slow?
I think that it's unnecessary. The list right now is too tight to really allow many changes, unless you need to metagame. Also, the mox diamonds and the lands that add 2 colorless are enough acceleration. Once you slow them down with 3 sphere or something, you can get the rest out, and then don't need the extra acceleration.
Basically, instead of playing something that messes with your opponent, you're playing a creature that may die. and even if it lives, it doesn't do much more than you would have anyway.
Metalworker is the kind of mana excel that you have to build around so you can't just shove him into any deck with a lot of artifacts and expect him to be good. I do think their is a place for him in legacy, and maybe in some sort of a stax variant, but not in this deck.
For many matchups, it comes down to what kind of opening 7 Stax can get (or if you mulligan aggressively) and if it can win the die roll, because that too greatly influences a matchup.
About that, has any of you tried to fit Serum Powder into the deck? On paper it looks promising:
A) It deals with the "opening 7 problem". For example, it gets a lot easier to have t1 Trinisphere in games where you really need it.
B) It's an OK top deck in Stax, correctly costed for Chalice/Trinisphere, it's a permanent that can be sacrificed, and it produces mana.
C) It makes it A LOT easier to find the SB answers you need game 2-3. Even with a 5x3 SB, you'll be almost guaranteed to mulligan/powder into a copy when needed.
D) It's easy to fit - just cut the 4-ofs you'd rather not see in multiples down to 3-ofs. It will still increase the chance of getting the cut cards in hand when needed, and increase the chances of getting a 4-of even more.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
Metalworker is the kind of mana excel that you have to build around so you can't just shove him into any deck with a lot of artifacts and expect him to be good. I do think their is a place for him in legacy, and maybe in some sort of a stax variant, but not in this deck.
I've been trying to squeeze him into a list and I think white is either needed alongside him or superior to him. The real issue is loosing consistency with white spells and white mana in general.
The upside of Metalworker and downside are equal. I think people don't see this point of view:
-MW is perfect for stax. I think he's the best creature you could ever run. The only problem is that he's too potent and efficient for stax. MW can let you "lock out" the game from as early as turn 2/3 consistently (assuming you drop him turn 1/2). We all dream of doing that. There is also the ability to end things indefinitely with staff of domination (and other small combo's) very fast.
-To utilize MW effectively, you have to cram the deck full of artifacts. The core of stax is already this. Trinisphere / Stax / Crucible / Mox / Chalice = 1/3 of the deck artifacts. The problem is making it 40-50% artifacts, greatly enhancing the probability of making mana from MW. Straight up white staxxx breaks down into 30% white, 30% artifacts, 30% land (roughly folks). Changing this composition enhances MW at the expense of ruining the white-effects of the deck. All of what I said is should (already) be understood but here is where things get different.
What are the best white cards to "keep" in Stax, should metalworker be included? Can we drop any artifact cards? What could the mana base look like?
Imo, Armageddon is the only must-have white card. Magus of the Tabernacle + oblivion ring kick serious ass but there could be alternative routes to pursue. Additionally, ghostly prison could be altered as another card choice.
No matter what, I'd include Ethersworn and Oblivion somewhere (MD or SB) because I feel they are just a sheer necessity. In my open slots, atm, I'd ditch the staff of domination trick in favor of 3x O-ring + something
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I don't really see what Metal Worker does for W Staxx... I've been playing the deck for about 2 months now and I can't imagine dropping anything for a weak creature that pumps out mana. :S
I think if anything Metal Worker needs to be built around rather that shoved into a Staxx Shell...
Has anyone else found Smokestack lackluster? I know it's supposed to combine well with the other elements, but I'm finding it does little on its own AND in combination. For example:
On its own: Opponent can sacrifice low cc dudes that would have traded or chumped if he'd played against aggro. Excess land also staves off stack for long enough to kill unless we have another defense piece.
With Prison: He's already stuck attacking with 1-2 creatures. Excess permaments that are already just sitting there can be sacrificed to stacks with little loss for the opponent.
With Mage: Same here, he probably can't upkeep all creatures anyway (if he wants to play spells), so saccing a few to stacks comes at no extra penalty.
I'm finding I'd rather want Smokestack to be some sweeper like Armageddon 5-8 (Ravages), dedicated removal like Aura of Silence or something else that's actually useful rather than just "fitting".
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
Oh... so its like... 'Bad Stax'... That doesn't seem very good at all unless your meta is like 90% aggro.
What?
What format are you playing again? Legacy?
90% of decks ARE aggro.
any deck that isn't a combo deck is an aggro deck.
so...
lets take a look at the competitive list...
Top Decks
=========
Merfolk(aggro-control)
Aggro Loam (in the name)
Threshold(aggro-control)
Survival (inc. welder Survival) (aggro)
ANT (inc. SI, TES, Cret Belcher and Iggy Pop)(NOT aggro)
UW(x) Landstill(wins through aggro-control)
Goblins(aggro)
Ichorid(aggro)
Competitive Decks
=================
43 Land(Not aggro)
Team America(aggro)
31 Flavours of Dreadnought (inc. Dreadstill)(aggro-control)
Mono Black Aggro(aggro obviously)
Red Death (RB Aggro)("")
Mono Red Burn(NOT aggro)
Angel Stax(has aggro components)
Countersliver(aggro)
Ravager Affinity(aggro)
Elves(aggro)
Death and Taxes(aggro)
X-Land Stompy(aggro-control)
Faerie Stompy
BWG Control
Dragon Stompy
Imperial Painter
Need I remind you that most decks in legacy win through creatures, and moat+humility stops all creatures?
I think you mean to say that this version is good stax, unless 90% of your meta is combo.
any deck that isn't a combo deck is an aggro deck.
so...
lets take a look at the competitive list...
Top Decks
=========
Merfolk(aggro-control)
Aggro Loam (in the name)
Threshold(aggro-control)
Survival (inc. welder Survival) (aggro)
ANT (inc. SI, TES, Cret Belcher and Iggy Pop)(NOT aggro)
UW(x) Landstill(wins through aggro-control)
Goblins(aggro)
Ichorid(aggro)
Competitive Decks
=================
43 Land(Not aggro)
Team America(aggro)
31 Flavours of Dreadnought (inc. Dreadstill)(aggro-control)
Mono Black Aggro(aggro obviously)
Red Death (RB Aggro)("")
Mono Red Burn(NOT aggro)
Angel Stax(has aggro components)
Countersliver(aggro)
Ravager Affinity(aggro)
Elves(aggro)
Death and Taxes(aggro)
X-Land Stompy(aggro-control)
Faerie Stompy
BWG Control
Dragon Stompy
Imperial Painter
Need I remind you that most decks in legacy win through creatures, and moat+humility stops all creatures?
I think you mean to say that this version is good stax, unless 90% of your meta is combo.
Thats nice. I just ripped my Staxx deck apart though to use some of the cards for a good deck. Sadly 1.5 Stax just seems to get stomped on.
I have seen Burn categorized differently for different reasons. Back when Solidarity was the only combo deck worth playing, I think most people tossed Burn in with it. The hate for it was similar, and both had the same position in the meta.
In this case, I think Orlandu is giving a nod to the fact that Burn has few nonland permanents, and Stax faces it in a dis-similar fashion to other aggro decks
In this case, I think Orlandu is giving a nod to the fact that Burn has few nonland permanents, and Stax faces it in a dis-similar fashion to other aggro decks
That is exactly what I meant.
The point I was proving was the usefulness of the Moat+Humility combo, so in a sense, I meant "aggro" in a way of creatures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KonigBohnr
Thats nice. I just ripped my Staxx deck apart though to use some of the cards for a good deck. Sadly 1.5 Stax just seems to get stomped on.
What the hell? Mono Red Burn is TOTALLY an aggro!
Why was I quoted here..? I'm confused.
Anyway... Burn is def. aggro... but yeah not in the normal sense.. creatures.
And to go back to Dutch Staxx... not to say its flat out a bad deck. But from my experiences Staxx is just to inconsistant for me... It can flat out go X-0 or 0-X any given night, same deck, same pilot, and it usually doesn't have anything to do with skill or even the match-ups. Trust me. It happened to me. I hope somehow this deck can become more consistant so I could consider playing with it again.
MUD Staxx in legacy looks promising; honestly metalworker is just broken. And aggro loam is aggro control sure it doesn't counter stuff but it controls the board via burning wish, terminate, and whatever.
Countersliver is aggro control; if you compare it to merfolk it is essentially the same thing before merfolk got 12 lords. That and it get's ****ed by wasteland hard whereas merfolk does run wasteland. And it runs FoW and stifle, just like merfolk.
Ichorid is combo aggro you can't say a deck that can potentially win turn 1 isn't a combo deck. All survival decks are aggro control; they have creatures that they can search for via survival that SURPRISINGLY blow up artifacts and enchantments as well as creatures. Goblins is also aggro control; sure it can smash face really fast if it get's the right hand, but it plays rishadan port's and wasteland. Along with the gempalm incinerator. Most of the top decks are aggro control. UW(x) landstill is the only pure control deck left in existence since it really can't win on turn 5 and plays tons of counter magic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Aggro is heavy in my meta, do you think its worth it to maindeck x1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in place of my 4th O Ring or something along those lines? (this is an angeless version) making it a 5th magus kinda... I've been having problems vs super fast aggro in testing.
Aggro is heavy in my meta, do you think its worth it to maindeck x1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in place of my 4th O Ring or something along those lines? (this is an angeless version) making it a 5th magus kinda... I've been having problems vs super fast aggro in testing.
Yes, you could try that.
A lot of decks carry one Tabernacle in their sideboard just for this case.
Good luck in getting one
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
And as for exalted angel being cut: Some builds still run it. I personally like it a lot since it gains you life, which can be a huge boon in this deck what with aggro beating you over the head and you taking damage from ancient tomb.
Currently Playing:
Retired
In respect to people having, more or less, stop running MD critters that aren't Magus of the Tabernacle, do you expect Baneslayer Angel to be the "return" of Exalted Angel?
My Trade Thread
I would probably stick to Baneslayer Angel over Exalted Angel; while Baneslayer is more streamlined I still live the dream of turn 2 angel beats. Having the chance to randomly blow my opponent out, and consistently come out swinging earlyer than Baneslayer Angel is pretty relevant.
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
Currently Playing:
Retired
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
Any deck that can resolve an Aether Vial is really bad news for Stax.
For many matchups, it comes down to what kind of opening 7 Stax can get (or if you mulligan aggressively) and if it can win the die roll, because that too greatly influences a matchup.
Currently Playing:
Retired
I think that it's unnecessary. The list right now is too tight to really allow many changes, unless you need to metagame. Also, the mox diamonds and the lands that add 2 colorless are enough acceleration. Once you slow them down with 3 sphere or something, you can get the rest out, and then don't need the extra acceleration.
Basically, instead of playing something that messes with your opponent, you're playing a creature that may die. and even if it lives, it doesn't do much more than you would have anyway.
Currently Playing:
Retired
About that, has any of you tried to fit Serum Powder into the deck? On paper it looks promising:
A) It deals with the "opening 7 problem". For example, it gets a lot easier to have t1 Trinisphere in games where you really need it.
B) It's an OK top deck in Stax, correctly costed for Chalice/Trinisphere, it's a permanent that can be sacrificed, and it produces mana.
C) It makes it A LOT easier to find the SB answers you need game 2-3. Even with a 5x3 SB, you'll be almost guaranteed to mulligan/powder into a copy when needed.
D) It's easy to fit - just cut the 4-ofs you'd rather not see in multiples down to 3-ofs. It will still increase the chance of getting the cut cards in hand when needed, and increase the chances of getting a 4-of even more.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
I've been trying to squeeze him into a list and I think white is either needed alongside him or superior to him. The real issue is loosing consistency with white spells and white mana in general.
The upside of Metalworker and downside are equal. I think people don't see this point of view:
-MW is perfect for stax. I think he's the best creature you could ever run. The only problem is that he's too potent and efficient for stax. MW can let you "lock out" the game from as early as turn 2/3 consistently (assuming you drop him turn 1/2). We all dream of doing that. There is also the ability to end things indefinitely with staff of domination (and other small combo's) very fast.
-To utilize MW effectively, you have to cram the deck full of artifacts. The core of stax is already this. Trinisphere / Stax / Crucible / Mox / Chalice = 1/3 of the deck artifacts. The problem is making it 40-50% artifacts, greatly enhancing the probability of making mana from MW. Straight up white staxxx breaks down into 30% white, 30% artifacts, 30% land (roughly folks). Changing this composition enhances MW at the expense of ruining the white-effects of the deck. All of what I said is should (already) be understood but here is where things get different.
What are the best white cards to "keep" in Stax, should metalworker be included? Can we drop any artifact cards? What could the mana base look like?
Imo, Armageddon is the only must-have white card. Magus of the Tabernacle + oblivion ring kick serious ass but there could be alternative routes to pursue. Additionally, ghostly prison could be altered as another card choice.
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Den
4 Plains / Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Metalworker
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
5 OPEN
Open slot potentials = oblivion ring, ethersworn canonist, tanglewire, ghostly prison, winter orb, static orb, humility, Elspeth, knight-errant, staff of domination (2x a nice way to include the MW combo), enlightened tutor + toolbox
No matter what, I'd include Ethersworn and Oblivion somewhere (MD or SB) because I feel they are just a sheer necessity. In my open slots, atm, I'd ditch the staff of domination trick in favor of 3x O-ring + something
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I think if anything Metal Worker needs to be built around rather that shoved into a Staxx Shell...
My 2 cents.
~ UGBW Ba$eruptioN UGBW ~
+++++++++++++++++
:o-)(EDH)(-:o
{{TeNeB, Th3 A-HoLe}}
=MoMiR VigSauc3=
On its own: Opponent can sacrifice low cc dudes that would have traded or chumped if he'd played against aggro. Excess land also staves off stack for long enough to kill unless we have another defense piece.
With Prison: He's already stuck attacking with 1-2 creatures. Excess permaments that are already just sitting there can be sacrificed to stacks with little loss for the opponent.
With Mage: Same here, he probably can't upkeep all creatures anyway (if he wants to play spells), so saccing a few to stacks comes at no extra penalty.
I'm finding I'd rather want Smokestack to be some sweeper like Armageddon 5-8 (Ravages), dedicated removal like Aura of Silence or something else that's actually useful rather than just "fitting".
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
What?
What format are you playing again? Legacy?
90% of decks ARE aggro.
any deck that isn't a combo deck is an aggro deck.
so...
lets take a look at the competitive list...
Top Decks
=========
Merfolk(aggro-control)
Aggro Loam (in the name)
Threshold(aggro-control)
Survival (inc. welder Survival) (aggro)
ANT (inc. SI, TES, Cret Belcher and Iggy Pop)(NOT aggro)
UW(x) Landstill(wins through aggro-control)
Goblins(aggro)
Ichorid(aggro)
Competitive Decks
=================
43 Land(Not aggro)
Team America(aggro)
31 Flavours of Dreadnought (inc. Dreadstill)(aggro-control)
Mono Black Aggro(aggro obviously)
Red Death (RB Aggro)("")
Mono Red Burn(NOT aggro)
Angel Stax(has aggro components)
Countersliver(aggro)
Ravager Affinity(aggro)
Elves(aggro)
Death and Taxes(aggro)
X-Land Stompy(aggro-control)
Faerie Stompy
BWG Control
Dragon Stompy
Imperial Painter
Need I remind you that most decks in legacy win through creatures, and moat+humility stops all creatures?
I think you mean to say that this version is good stax, unless 90% of your meta is combo.
Thats nice. I just ripped my Staxx deck apart though to use some of the cards for a good deck. Sadly 1.5 Stax just seems to get stomped on.
~ UGBW Ba$eruptioN UGBW ~
+++++++++++++++++
:o-)(EDH)(-:o
{{TeNeB, Th3 A-HoLe}}
=MoMiR VigSauc3=
In this case, I think Orlandu is giving a nod to the fact that Burn has few nonland permanents, and Stax faces it in a dis-similar fashion to other aggro decks
That is exactly what I meant.
The point I was proving was the usefulness of the Moat+Humility combo, so in a sense, I meant "aggro" in a way of creatures.
Why was I quoted here..? I'm confused.
Anyway... Burn is def. aggro... but yeah not in the normal sense.. creatures.
And to go back to Dutch Staxx... not to say its flat out a bad deck. But from my experiences Staxx is just to inconsistant for me... It can flat out go X-0 or 0-X any given night, same deck, same pilot, and it usually doesn't have anything to do with skill or even the match-ups. Trust me. It happened to me. I hope somehow this deck can become more consistant so I could consider playing with it again.
~ UGBW Ba$eruptioN UGBW ~
+++++++++++++++++
:o-)(EDH)(-:o
{{TeNeB, Th3 A-HoLe}}
=MoMiR VigSauc3=
Countersliver is aggro control; if you compare it to merfolk it is essentially the same thing before merfolk got 12 lords. That and it get's ****ed by wasteland hard whereas merfolk does run wasteland. And it runs FoW and stifle, just like merfolk.
Ichorid is combo aggro you can't say a deck that can potentially win turn 1 isn't a combo deck. All survival decks are aggro control; they have creatures that they can search for via survival that SURPRISINGLY blow up artifacts and enchantments as well as creatures. Goblins is also aggro control; sure it can smash face really fast if it get's the right hand, but it plays rishadan port's and wasteland. Along with the gempalm incinerator. Most of the top decks are aggro control. UW(x) landstill is the only pure control deck left in existence since it really can't win on turn 5 and plays tons of counter magic.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Yes, you could try that.
A lot of decks carry one Tabernacle in their sideboard just for this case.
Good luck in getting one