MTG Salvation

I upped 3 sphere to 4 as it is so often a free win on t1/2 on the play.
Tabernacle does work but 2 was excessive in the 75
Wrath I bought in over a 2nd Catastrophe, and dropped Moat 2. I wanted the deck cheaper and with 1 more white source. Peacekeeper is great, it can leave decks with Disenchants and boarded Swords up the creek. It also comes down a turn earlier and locks Infect type decks that one turn earlier...... I don't own Ravages of War.....for a split(

I am actually on 2 less white sources than you and I rarely have that many issues casting my pay off spells like Humility.
My manabase currently

Interesting....
I have a fairly large chunk of D N T kicking around, which is a decent match but one where Mox D often gets Revokered (again people knowing what I am on after 1 or seeing a Tomb)- before my Humilities hit- and their Ports obviously kick in on the white. I also have an Elf player in there, where that t2/3 humility is vital and they can fetch artifact kill for the mox and buy a turn. I guess when I am experiencing mulligans it tends to be in the games where I know/suspect what my opponent is on- it may simply be that, thinking about it I rarely mull vs BUG, Jund, etc and when I mull vs Storm I do so aggressively rather than due to the hand being bad- of course vs Storm white is not a consideration, a t1 Chailce or 3 sphere is.

I used to run Ghostlies, which made me keep more hands as they bought time.

My top end is pretty heavy now though........I get a fairly large number of hands where there is little costing 3 or less, and having 4 City of Traitors can also gum up the works. I prefer my current version mulligan wise over my older one with one less Karakas, at least on then sample hand generator. Cycling may help on that o ring replacement, I may even up it to two- getting to 4 is less of an issue for me with 4 COT/4 tomb that getting WW, especially with Trading Post able to get life back from Tomb.
I do have a whopping 6 WW cards @ 4cc, and under the older version had 7.

Have you got a latest list? Always good to see your ideas...... I think the meta change won't make much difference but it will mean perhaps more BUG, more stoneblade in paper and it will make any Nic Fit/grindy BUG matches that bit easier, those Deeds look a hell of a lot worse with no Top to sort out the mess after.......and if they don't Deed a Stax deck they don't often win.

In the past year/18 months my results with Stax have been >50%,which is not bad, I have experimented at times and learnt a lot. Its strange, more the past two years Stax and Pox have had no cards added into the pool but they have required more work at times than other decks I run every now and then like Solider Stompy (Thalia Chalice deck) that have had loads of new stuff printed. I guess its all about critters for WOTC.............

Thought I would update on where I am on the deck.
Bascially, I have had middling experiences with Humility Stax. Humility has been great against the big dude decks and Elves.
The main issues I have had are the deck beats itself way too often, the mulligans are awful and too frequent. There is zero control over the draws, and every now and then a seemingly hard lock is escaped from. Don't get me wrong, it has good matches, some v good matchups- and making opponents permanent-less is always fun.
Which is basically saying- "its a Stax deck". Stay with me. Some things- e.g. card manipulation- are simply not possible at Legacy level in this deck type. Some, however, are.

I have gone through the Prison versions of Dragon Stompy, and Charlie-in-the Mox's brown Stax too, and wondered why they produce good results.
I believe it is to do with the sheer speed and volume of the disruption. Its the same engine in many ways, but those decks do better by delivering a t1/2 threat, and when they get countered t3/4 on top. We get too many "all in on 3 sphere, 3sphere is forced, my hand is now bad, and there goes the game" hands.

I have always axiomatically avoided nonbos in Stax as being unplayable due to the inability to control the draw, but the more time has gone on, the more I wonder about this. In an effort to avoid nonbos have I actually produced a list that is too clunky? What is worse- a potential nonbo or a hand full of 4 drops after being Wastelanded? Have I avoided wincons I could have used, have I produced less disruption than I could have? Its easy to remember the unbeatable games.
I have spent the last 3 -4 months not Stax-ing in events. I have been extensively testing different ideas with friends instead in specific " we test stax for hours" sessions.
Here is what I have come up with
(a) I need >4 pieces of disruption @ 2 cc or to hit 3 mana more often. Red stompy decks run 8 Moon effects and Chalice, plus the sol land suite and Moxen and SSG to get there. We run Sol lands, Moxen 3 sphere and Chalice. Brown stax runs 4 Spheres of Resistance, 4 Chalice and 4 Tanglewire, plus Ports. That is way higher than the number of early plays I have.
This basically means....I need, if I stax pure White, to run Suppression Field, a hate bear or Tanglewire with extra gas to get to it. SF has the potential to interact with PWs, DRS, and fetchlands. A resolved t1 SF could wreck an opponent with only fetches in hand.

(b) Even if I do Humility I still need to deal with Equipment and swarms like lingering souls..
Humility is a super solution to all the big fatties, but it still leave me open to being swarmed. Meaning I need Ghostly Prisons or some repetetive lifegain. Meaning that I am almost looking to pull off 3 card combos, not two. The Red deck is always about two card combos. I need more disruptive permanents that cost 3- that means Ghostly or Ensnaring Bridge. They work antagonistically with Geddon effects, and I have always favored the former, avoiding the nonbo. But Bridge is a key part of the other Stax decks, being flexibale and controlable.
(c) I have often been in control of games but have had no way to win. Brown Stax has a 5 power Golem. Red has Rabblemasters or Ballistas. I have had.....nothing, just relying on sweepers and Humility.

I want a Stax deck with a more generally wider approach, I want fewer hands thrown back due to white being missing-i.e. ones where I can take the mono brown hand because there is some disruption in there. Instead of "I beat X" "I lose to Y" I want something with more nuance.I want to win games sometimes early. That means combos or a critter win con that is fearsome if left unchecked.

So I am going to be running S field, Ensnaring Bridge, Thalia II and other things I have avoided for a while, including Banelsayer
I have seen so often now in the sessions that when the Baneslayer can "get there", you don't lay the bridge when its drawn of the top in a winning position. When BS is not going to do anything, you'd lay it,and then eventually we take control and sac the Bridge to the Stax after tying up the board, both cards acting as a line of defence for the inevitable top deck from the opponent. Bridge wins games, and the most successful lists run it in the other varieties of Stax. I don't want to run it, but the number of test games where we have said "that is a win if this is Bridge and not Ghostly" is high. The nonbo between Karakas, Cast Out cycling and Maze and SF is almost never relevant with good play. SF rarely stops them alone, it certainly won't stop me. I can also sequence its departure via the Stack.
I think also that the deck needs blockers sometimes, its that simple- thy open up avenues and give choices, and also represent a way of hitting Planeswalkers. First strike interacts well with Maze of Ith too, and Fatal Push fails on the killing Baneslayer Front.


The other slots are not locked in- another Grafdigger's, a second Rule, the new Spyglass in September I guess. The options are there. I would consider a third SF if necessary.
I can recall in Modern when I ran RW landkilling Prison it did poorly for a long time. Eventually I got it to be succssful - top 8 in 100 player event, WMCQ semi etc. That came about because I cheapened the list- that simply I made sure there were ten relvenant t2 plays, not 5, and I introduced new cards I had avoided- S field and Chalice being among them, by co-incidence. It solved everything with that, I hope that cheapening Stax and making it Mono-B/White stax I can achieve the same here in Legacy.

How has it been going with your changes?

I agree with about 50% of what you said, but some of the disagreement is, I'm sure, playstyle or metagame differences. I play only on MTGO where there is a distinct competitiveness to every deck you face (either in a league, a queue, or, most of the time, in the TP room).

I agree that Stax often loses to itself, but a lot of this comes down to understanding the match-ups and know what order to cast spells. Yes, there are games/matches where the lands just won't support you, so I've become a much more aggressive mulliganer. It's hard, but Stax has many winnable 6- and even 5-card hands if you are willing to get to them.

I agree that more early interaction is important. I adopted Suppression Field a while back and find it's a great turn 1 or even turn 2 play against 90+% of the field. It's even allowed me to win more games versus Death and Taxes. I'm not sure that I agree with going overboard on early interaction or playing 'non-bos' just because, but I think everything is worth considering.

I think there are a couple of angles worth considering right now.

#1) Ensnaring Bridge. You get rewarded for allowing things to get countered. Bottled Cloister also becomes more playable. While there are going to be games where we lose to our own Ancient Tomb (there always are), creature combat is still where most games will be won or lost. Effectively shutting that valve off is going to help. The downside is obviously artifact hate. There is very little that gets played right now and if they are attacking your Bridge, they aren't hitting the Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere. The key is to (a) get to the late game and (b) be able to win from behind the Bridge.

#2) Helm of Obedience. Obviously this would be a combo with Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void, but, as you point out, Stax is really about the 2- and 3-card combos. Why not play a couple small combos that can win the game on the spot...

I have always preferred to play/build 4-of (or 3-of) Stax, but I think I'm getting more used to the idea of varying the numbers more. Not sure I could go to quite as many 2-ofs as you posted without fearing that I'm drawing the wrong outs every game. I'll post a list when I have some time later this weekend or next week.

I am now a strong advocate of bridge, two main deck is excellent, it could easily be three, it simply wins too many games to not have main deck, and I am now on three s fields main deck (well 4 but I want to try spyglass, so it will be three). Your points about bridge are very valid. I cut a trinisphere to get the 3rd s field, even mono red and mono b decks don't run 4. The other cut is up in the air slightly, but I have amended my list in the post above to reflect where I am pre Ixalan

I also run cloister as you see, but in the board.

S field is a nonbo with Mishra's/Karakas and cast out cycling but I think it is worth it. The main nonbo had had to go was humility and the dudes, humility is nuttily good vs reanimators, but so is bridge, and it does those elves decks a treat, I am happy with it in the board....those dudes are very disrupting and baneslayer does finish past bridge easily as we always get control in the end.

So let me ask you this, why Baneslayer Angel? Isn't there a creature which impacts the board more? Please understand, I'm not being critical, I've just found Sun Titan to be more beneficial to helping my board position. As you said, it's inevitable that he will win attacking, but I can often cast the Sun Titan for an advantage even if it's just adding a Wasteland to the board. Is there something I'm missing with the Angel? Does it help in a particularly bad matchup?

I still prefer the 4x Trinisphere. I've seen a lot of lists that cut 1 Mox Diamond or 1 Trinisphere, but these result in must-Force situations and I love having access to them. I agree with Suppression Field being worthwhile, but I often find myself siding them out for more focused solutions. It also opens up more win conditions as you pointed out. I'm not really a fan of Mishra's Factory, but that is MTGO-biased. Winning via 10 Factory activations is tough with a chess clock and paying 3 for 2 damage (with Suppression Field) is just bad.

Bottled Cloister is another card I like to main deck, but side out often when I expect artifact hate. The downside of Cloister is too great in some match-ups. I don't mind running spells into counters, but exiling my hand versus an efficient opponent is never good.

Now, I know Stax prefers permanents, but could something more universal like Unexpectedly Absent be worthwhile somewhere in the 75?

Baneslayer flies/first strikes- both of which have relevance vs D N T and Eldrazi which are about in numbers here, and hurts burn/UR delver- we have a lot of both d n t and red based burn, and one connection with BS is often vital in getting the life total up. Aside from pro grisselbrand in the reanimation matches or s and t matches, it is the lifelink that works for me. Deal first strike damage, gain life and maze it afterwards for a pseudo vigilance is decent, of course.

Almost every mono B and more prison stompy red list has fewer than 4 trinispheres. I refused to change for years and years, and have reluctantly gone down, but it seems to work.

Understand totally about factory online. Cloister I could probably not run main without more bridges, but it is tempting.

Nice to see a mano w list
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17579&d=308914&f=LE


My current list has done well in testing, but I have been playing, jamming and developing other lists over the last 3/4 months- managing just a single event in October I think.

Here is my current list

Just a little update.
A couple of weeks ago I did an FNM 4 rounder.

Beat burn, 12 post ug candelabra, but managed to lose to a Death n t Maverick hybrid and the Gate.

In the latter I did mull to 3 and draw 7 land mid game, as well as win two friendlies after, The former Prelate and an unusual Stonecloaker main deck got me.

2-2 seems to be where I often end up on Stax.
My vulnerability to Prelate on 4 is clear, though.


I have changed a couple of cards.

The Suppression field slots I am moving as my meta seems to be more Combo and Big mana and less midrange death rite decks.
I don't want to do this, but the number of d rite u based decks I have seen has dropped. S F is fab, smooths the deck and gives turn one plays, but the meta here has become oddly away from decks where it has most impact.

One more Ghostly main deck because and two O ring effects split between O r and Banishing have been added for the 3 fields. Just looking for flexibility and different Ccs.
I have dropped a Cast Out to go to two. I added the main deck Trading Post, the ultimate in utility, in for that slot now that SF has gone. I kept one Humility because who dies not like winning with one one goats?

On a similar note I have added Geir Reach Sanitarium over Mishra's to help smooth those irritating mana clumps.

Tabernacle two is now a Walking Ballista, again looking at flexibility and critter kill. It can kill behind Bridge and keep coming back with now returned Trading Post.

I trimmed a Thalia, it is great at being threat and slower, but too often I get one down to draw another. I am looking at Bottled Cloister or Trading Post 2 here, although it does add another 4cc card.

Cloister impressed me from the board the other day, it works with Bridge and helps with those already won matches that are closed but the opponent doesn't scoop.

Board wise I will maintain one SF at least. G cage can go, I have a good Reanimator match anyway, and the Cloister in the main frees a slot.

Two things: (1) You've got a pretty high curve. I understand wanting more two-drops, but you've got so many 4 drops and this deck, in my experience, needs more than 27 mana sources to be hitting 4 drops early with any consistency. I understand you may not need them 'early', but you've got so many, it's hard to imagine a hand where you don't start with 1-2. (2) You've got a ton of mini-combos and anti-synergy or outright non-bos. As you point out, Thalia is awesome with Suppression Field. Suppression Field is bad with Cast Out. Ensnaring Bridge is awesome. Ensnaring Bridge plus a high mana curve is not really optimal...

Do you think it's worth focusing more on the key 'combos' and keeping the rest in the Board?

Is your build more focused to your specific meta? I play exclusively online at this point, so I'm most concerned about the 'standard' decks - Delver, Czech-Pile, Miracles, Reanimator, and Combo (mostly the stock 'competitive' lists). I find a more generic 3-of or 4-of build around the key 'taxes' with less 'tweaks' is best in that environment.

I have gone a fairy long way from the November build now.
I dropped the whole Thalia/S field package, and increased ballistas as I was impressed with the one I added. The problem was I could beat the combos, but lost to fair decks with few fetches far too often.

I trimmed tabernacle 2, Magus and other changes I shall post later, added another Ghostly etc. It still has a lot of 4cc cards in.
I have done a couple of events since the one I listed above, only lost one, but more testing/data is needed. The ballista goes a long way to adding pinpoint kill to the deck, which solves a lot of the issues. It can hide behind the bridge and shoot the enemy, and can shoot dudes. It is pretty proven tech in the mono brown lists.

I will post my latest list here later.
In answer to your question I play paper over MTGO, so there is no point aiming at that meta for me.
Apart from Storm, I see one of most decks, and fewer delver decks than MTGO. I see a bit more storm than you would expect, but in general its one of this and one of that.

Here is the list now

The mana sources are now 25 lands, 3 Moxen, (2 non mana producing lands as well for Moxen purposes)

There are 11 3cc things

There are 11 4 cc things, but two cycle for W, and two can reduce hand size for the bridge (whilst producing card advantage)

I am assuming ballistas as 2cc, because often against the decks like Infect and D N T that is where they get cast.

There are a fair fewer nonbos now.

There are 3 pinpoint permanent removal cards - 2 cast out, 1 banishing light, plus 3 ballista kills.

There are 3-5 attack preventers- Ghostly x 3, Bridge x2, Maze x1, plus one Taxing tabernacle.

There are 3 ways of drawing cards- Sanitarium (no net card advantage), Cloister (net card advantage but still works with Bridge) and Trading Post which can generate advantage but only over two turns via use of two modes.

I left one humility in as it basically works with the only creatures in the deck being Mishras and Ballistas (plus any goat tokens), the ballistas of course retain their counters and can also shoot a a couple of monsters in response to the Humility, killing them if it resolves. Post humility ballista is still a 0 mana 1/1 that can be sac'd to T post. With more data and results it is the Humility, Trading post and Cloister I will be looking at most closely.

There is just one WW card main deck.
.




The board has lots of 2/3cc cc stuff in.
Spirits OTL come in vs. Brainstorm decks which sounds a lot but which are 30-40 % of my meta, no more, as Europeans tend to prefer more Lands, Dragon Stompy, D N T, and Elves in paper and a smattering of all in budget-ish decks like Belcher, Monored sneak etc).
Defense grid comes in against a lot of counterspell heavy decks as a must counter t1 play alongside Chalice.
Spatial is there for fair decks, obviously.
Against lockable decks like Storm where I have huge numbers to come in I end up with just 2 spirits and 1 Mishra, 1 Thoughtknot as the win cons.
The extra humility is for reanimators and depths decks.

I would love to fit in In the eye of chaos, shame it is not white.

I am trying the single karoo land as an experiment on the suggestion of someone. 4 Cities is something I have often found hard to work if the opponent disrupts. I know how well it works in Brown and mono R chalice decks, but in a geddon deck itis a bit harder. It works with City of Traitors to bounce City instead, and obviously produces key white mana. It does cost a land drop, of course. It can also bounce another land If I am about to 'geddon, and can come down whilst keeping a card in hand for Trading Post discard, changing a Tomb into a non damage 2 mana source. It is just an experiment, but the mana seems to be smoother in play with it than without. It has cost me the odd keep/mull.

So far it seems better results wise, and fights against itself less.

I played the list above to a 2-2. Its last couple of outings this past month have been a more positive, but back to 2-2, although it was very beneficial.

R1 Delver 4col.

I knew he was on this. I only mulled 4 times in the night, but 3 were in game 1 of this. Turn down a slowish hand, get the same hand back, then no spells. Keep a 4 and fizzle.
Game two was very tight. He had optimal hands, countering my t1 chalice and 3 sphere. My next play was spell pierced, but good stuff happened. Sadly for me he drew his D rite and follwed with P needle, and naming ballista- which was stuck on 1 counter. Ancient grudge then hurt. I would have 'geddoned if he had drawn Needle/D rite, and it would have resolved to probably lock him out. DRS is the reason this strategy is harder to pull off than years ago.

We played 9 more games boarded I won 4 or 5.
0-2

R2 Elves. I did not know he was on this.
I got down a t2 chalice, but he drew cards and got the good stuff with GSZ. I thought I was deadwith just stack coming down, but a series of correct plays with Smokestack and O ring effects bought me to exactly one life, and Mishra's factory was never so good. I tapped out Mishra's to lay Humility, and he thought he would win as he could fetch arbor EOT. Sadly for him I had Maze of Ith and he became locked.
Game 2 I expected to lose but steamed into 3 sphere t2. He missed a tabernacle trigger with 2 dudes, 2 land and a Dryad Arbor, and scooped. As there was no way back as I had two smokestacks down.
2-0
R3 High Tide/Candelabra nonsense.
G1 I resolve Chalice, and resolve a geddon. Stack locks it down.
G2 I get to Chalices on 1, 2 and 3, Leyline (t0), plus Rule of Law under a smokestack on 1/crucible lock on his 1 land. I eat up his forces and wonder what the out he is playing to. Turns out it was Chain of vapor, with me forgetting all the Chalice triggers. He concedes under a finally resolving 3 sphere.
2-0

R4- sadly I miss the good matchups and have to play Maverick.
I **** up game 1, not laying Chalice and chosing Ballista instead, which gets sworded. I was concerned about him GSZing the Arbor into play, forgetting GSZ would have cost 1. I was really close to be able to win this despite this terrible error, with Bridge, Ghostly down against his army of stuff. The sad thing was after 1 for 1 ing vs KOTR, he layed Rummenap Excavator and Thalia and later Teeg. I was able to get to 3 turns where had I had 1 more land to pitch (he was wasting me repeatedly, I was bring lands back). I could have pitched to make a Mox, with my own recurring land Karakas coming out to sort his Teeg, enabling me to 'geddon for 5 mana, which would have kept him at 1 land forever depending on the number of basics in his library (I had the GQ for any basics, I think there were 0 in the bin anyway).
Game 2 was not as clos- Chalice get decayed, one drops hit, the board got nasty quickly.

Moving forward I want to make not too many changes. The deck has been working well and is >50 % against some pretty decent decks. It will always have the danger of some cards aiming at some critters, and others at spells, and you can always die to drawing the wrong hate. My meta is wide and full of one ofs, flexibility is important.

I want to cheapen the deck a bit more still. Eleven including the two cylers is too much. I will add a Ratchet Bomb for cheap utility maindeck over a 4cc thing- the Trading Post moving to the board as flexible utility. I may drop it altogether but it does a lot. The RB will strengthen weaker matches- those fair critter matches. Cloister has been good but could go if needed, although I do like some draw in the deck, and it does Bridge synergise. Nine including two Cast Out cyclers sounds better- 3 'geddon effects, 3 S stack, 1 Humility. I could drop the Humility to the board too, but board space is tight. I do want >2 'geddon effects.

In the board I will drop the Sphere of Law and Grafdigger C. They come in the least amount of times, and G cage is a 1 drop to boot. Reanimator is a decent match anyway. An extra Spatial Contortion in the board seems reasonable. In general I want more "2 ofs" in the board.

Well DRS has gone and that means Wastelock is better.
For my money mono brown, mono W stax instantly benefit, and could move this deck into the realms of decent.

Riftstone Portal gets good-tapping lands for G or W sounds pretty un painful.
Wastelock gets much better- no DRS to eat Wastelands, less acceleration in general unless it is by mana dorks rather than broken 1/2 planeswalkers.

I have not posted on my build for ages- looking at the old posts I have moved a fair bit at the margins, board and main switching a bit- whilst keeping the
core.

I agree with you a lot on this. I feel like this deck got a boost with the ban of DRS. It was easily in the top 3 of worst cards to see Turn 1 or 2 in a match-up.

I've already noticed an uptick in Canadian Threshold online and most people are expecting a surge of Reanimator. It also seems like BUG will get revived (once the mana base issues get resolved) and Standstill decks seem to be getting more traction in a potentially slowed-down meta. Miracles and Dragon Stompy don't look like they are going away either.

I feel like the 3 biggest challenges moving forward will be: the return of Tarmagoyf, an emergence of Standstill, and making the deck more explosive.

After reading back through several of your earlier posts, I'm not sure White Stax has gotten many tools to cope with it's previous issues. As I have time over the next day or two, I'll try to post a couple of lists.

Thanks.
My posts don't always tell the full story,I tend to only post after a bad one, and not always post the good ones.
I tried a fair bit over a two year period. The curve was horrible at times, but I could at least try things out.
I had a nice two year period of stability before that.
I guess over two years I learned
(a) a single ghost quarter is decent- it became a permanent fixture
(b) Geir reach sanitarium works well at smoothing the deck, it always seems to help strong positions turn into winners
(c)riftstone portal is very good at helping the deck not kill itself with tomb damage, the main reason to not run it was drs but it really was worth it with drs everywhere, it will be worth it without. Drs was the main killer for me- my match vs grixis et al was always hard.

I guess the most important lesson I learned was the value of flexible cards for he old meta- back to I went back to some 2-3 tanglewire after all these years, mainly to smooth it out, I kept the flexible Trading post etc.
I stopped going after unfair decks as much, I had a decent unfair match against storm, but a weak one against maverick, so I went more towards beating fair decks and not worrying about the unfair decks that I often did well against.

A lot of my issues were with the mana, and generally I learned not to take liberties

With DRS gone I think we get a big, big boost. The deck will beat itself with bad draws as ever, we have few new toys, but we get back a more potent wastelock and a safe graveyard. A rise in reanimator is not bad a all - I run a singleton humility main, and my board these days has bridge and mazes, Chalice, and 3 sphere are good aggressive draws against them, even if the ghostly/geddon combo is more for fair decks. Karakas is always there too for me as a pair. I have lost count of the number of times DRS has beaten me with this deck, the ban can only be good.

Hey guys, gonna necro this thread. I am competing in some upcoming legacy events, and want to hear people's opinions on stax, any advice? I'll post my list later.

EDIT: Heres the list



I want see if I can fit in anymore buried ruin, karns/Elspeth, maybe another inventors fair. I also want to see if I fit in Rishadan Port and Sorcerous Spyglass

I still run Stax. In fact I have two, in paper. One is mono brown, with Spheres of Resistance, Ports, Golems, similar to Charlie in the Mox's online deck rather than the drck by Iirc Michael Coyle who runs Trinispheres and Serum Powders.


The second is Geddon Stax, with Ghostly Prisons, Geddons and some usual Stax cards. I have the deck minus RL cards in foil, so my list is pretty settled, I have about five cards that rotate in and out according to meta. They do print good new cards for the deck, but they are mercifully cheap.

My white one was informed by playing the Brown one. I struggled for years in the case of white Stax, primarily because death rite made establishing a lock really hard. I could often beat either fair or control or unfair decks, but rarely made a deck to cope with all three remotely well. W stax in particular simply had too many 4 drops to be consistent.

For me the question is why play white stax and brown stax?

Geddon Stax offers basically the same as Brown, by different routes.

I built white around Ghostly Prison, aiming squarely at fair decks, hoping the basic package of trinisphere, chalice, stacks and karakas/maze does enough game one against the unfair decks. I used o ring style utility effects and walking Ballista for flexibility.


White offers the orings, prisons, it offers Leyline sideboard, and a few special cards like Humility or Wrath. It is not always integral to the deck, and more so the way you have built it.

Brown offers Golems to tax and beat up, consistency in the Charlie in the mox versions at least with 2 drops like Sphere of resistance, and an ability to go all in, more often locking decks out from the off.

You seem to have a list in between.
Are you trying to reduce the number of spells the average opponent casts to 3/4 per game? Or are you trying to let the opponent play a bit more but be able to catch up? I must admit I am a little concerned about your mana, you seem short on W.


For me you gave a lot of tech I now run in one version of the deck or other.

I use riftstone portal in w stax, the old lands tech, in white. I find it invaluable niw that drs has gone. Taby or Maze tapping for mana is often useful.

I run 2 flagstones to combo with geddon effects. They often help me get basics down, esp with smokestack. Basics are important against current Miracles.

I use Geir r Sanitarium too. I can see why you don't, you have Karn. It helps me filter out those non bo effects.

I use Inventor's f in Brown stax only, where it works really well. Port too I only use there, they are super effective.


I use Walking Ballista, and am surprised you don't. It is bloody good at pw control and critter control against decks like infect. I know you have Mishra's in numbers, but they are not the same.


I am glad you have found Ghost Quarter, I find one invaluable.

I will post my lists below....

I use Humility, just one E Bridge sideboard for the cheat decks. My cheat a dude in matches are not that bad, I have o rings etc. to ride show n tell, and two karakas, 1 maze main plus additional in the board.

Trading post is a real swiss army knife. It can sac a smokestack after opponent upkeeps, make dudes that become 1/1s with humility, bring back key pieces, sac spares, stop echoing truth etc., gain life vs burn etc.

I keep to a maximum ten 4cc cards- Karn would be nice in the main but I find it is only useful in grindy matches, the elves, dnt etc all eat it too quickly. I used to use bottled cloister in the deck when it had 3 e bridges, but it is no karn and a lot more risky.

I have the deck in foil, for comp REL can swap it but do not want to play it comp rel, its a great deck but it is much better when you know what they are on, which is less likely at comp rel bigger events. In these events I tend to Pox, keeping W stax and Parfait for local FNMs with 20-30 players.

Ratchet bomb or an extra t wire occasionally get slipped in over a 3rd o ring effect.I would like to try Inventor's fair, it would mean dropping a Karakas to the board. I am on the minimum number of Mishra's. Simply put they are not quite as good as they were, relying on them in a geddon deck is not stellar, they work a lot better in the brown version which is a harder lockout version.
Sometimes I use Zuran Orb for metas with lots of price of progress.

Just to update my list - April 19 - I now use an Elspeth in the board and a main deck Karn, with one of the O ring effects moved to the board Mindcensor has dropped from the list completely.

My brown stax list is below. It looks more like yours than my w

Hey drmarkb, I remember you from the RW lockdown modern thread, we seem to have similar tastes in decks:). Anyways, I reviewed your decks and read your posts I like them for the most part. I don't have humility or moat so that combo is out of the question. I have edited my list with your advice.

To answer your questions I want a geddon white stax, but I have found that mud stax maybe better. But white offers more protection in my eyes and I feel is stronger for my meta.

Here's my current list


I found the in between list to be more consistant for my meta

Im big fan of the tax/and whittle away of the brown version vs the blowout plan of the white, Is there an updated list or is white just better? I might buy myself some mox diamonds for Christmas If I can get a good deal. I have everything else other than only having 3 Cities. Any input would be much appreciated

Quote from Franx13 »

Hey drmarkb, I remember you from the RW lockdown modern thread, we seem to have similar tastes in decks:). Anyways, I reviewed your decks and read your posts I like them for the most part. I don't have humility or moat so that combo is out of the question. I have edited my list with your advice.

To answer your questions I want a geddon white stax, but I have found that mud stax maybe better. But white offers more protection in my eyes and I feel is stronger for my meta.

Here's my current list

drmarkb's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Mono White Stax Lands (23) 3x Mishra's Factory 1x Mutavault 4x City of Traitors 3x Plains 3x Inventors' Fair 3x Wasteland 1x Ghost Quarter 4x Ancient Tomb 1x Buried Ruin	Artifacts 4x Mox Diamond 4x Trinisphere 4x Chalice of the Void 1x Ensnaring Bridge 3x Crucible of Worlds 3x Tangle Wire 3x Smokestack 2x Sorcerous Spyglass	Other 3x Armageddon 4x Karn, Scion of Urza 3x Oblivion Ring 2x Ghostly Prison 1x Ugin, The Spirit Dragon

I found the in between list to be more consistant for my meta

It looks a very good list.

I think the days of Dutch Stax etc are gone. What happens with nearly all my old lists is I never had enough flexibility to deal with Miracles/random fast combo/Lands/fair dnt/ show n tell decks et al. This is a huge, huge issue for W. Look at Geddon - it is awfully bad if the opponent has aboard state and we have no attack tax, and even if there is one, two lands and they are away. So for many years I tried a lot of moat type cards, or bottled cloister/bridge or whatever- but the issues were always there. WW casting cost etc. would hold me back on powerful PWs and ultimately the deck was not good in an environ with DRS. Often the best non Chalice/3sphere cards in the deck over time were not Humility or Geddon, but Trading Post, which could draw cards or gain life etc., and O rings or such. Flexibility and consistency, not card power, is what gives Miracles its edge. Nonbos used to be a part of W stax, the Humility and a some dudes type nonbo being obvious.
Post ban things have moved on.
No DRS means lands in the bin stay there often, until I can recur them. This makes Ghost Quarter and Wasteland better, alongside Riftstone Portal and the geddon effects themselves. You can geddon a bit more freely, even to get a small edge.

Secondly, Walking ballista answers Teeg, and can shoot delvers, infectors et al. Win con, control card, all in one. A countered up Ballista is still big under Humility even.
Thought knot is similar- a creature with discard, effectively. This is why I only use 1 humility main nowadays, not two or more. We actually have good critters available that aid the plan.

Finally, utility lands are better- in both Inventors Fair and Geir Reach sanitarium we see card tutoring and life or simple card selection.

Other little things like Karn< scion being more flexible than a Bottled Cloister,say or being easier or cast than Elspeth have subtly weighed in.

This for me makes Stax better today than it has been since 2012. I won a small FNM tonight with it.

As for versions, in brown there are two ways to go about it- Sphere of R or 3 sphere and serum powder, with Ports etc. The version posted looks like a cousin of the S powder list, and is definitely a mono B list that splashes W rather than a W list. It looks good, although I would put a trading post in, as the card does everything we want- life gain of normally worthless cards, sacing artifacts to draw or to escape an echoing truth on a chalice, bringing stuff back etc. I can even make 1/1 goats with Humility down, although you won't be doing that....)

Quote from TheBullwark »

Im big fan of the tax/and whittle away of the brown version vs the blowout plan of the white, Is there an updated list or is white just better? I might buy myself some mox diamonds for Christmas If I can get a good deal. I have everything else other than only having 3 Cities. Any input would be much appreciated

Brown is probably better than W in honesty. It has fewer nonbo issues and is more consistent, as cards like Tanglewire can buy time if deployed early or can put the pressure on with Ports at their side and a stack in place.........

There are few players of the deck- IIRC Michael Coyle?? runs a all in serum powder version and does well. Charlie in the mox has basically run the same Sphere of resistance deck for years online, and updated with new tech like Inventor's f. Those are the two lists from which to start for my money. For W I would say tehre are so few lists out there you might as well start with the two above W lists, but you can see both W lists in this thread are lot less White than the old dutch stax lists.

Hello All,

I saw this thread pop-up on a reddit post and it got me thinking. Would something like the below work:



The thought being adding tax/rack would help deal with seeing more of the cards required to set up efficient locks?