I think exploration is meh, it might be good, but I also hate the idea of splashing in general because when you play smokestack there's a good chance you'll sack some lands to it which is why splashing worries me because we don't want an unstable manabase.
And crop rotation really isn't that good because once you land smokestack you want to be gaining a permanent every turn which crop rotation does not do. And exploration is just a terrible topdeck unless you have a crucible out and a wasteland to absolutely slaughter your opponents manabase if they have a lot of nonbasics out there
I have never played the deck yet so this me throwing stuff out. Exploration would allow us to get more permanents on the board that makes Smokestack less painfull on us. Just an idea
Ideas are welcome chronitog that's what this thread is for. Improving the deck but exploration is just risky sure it can accelerate you into some very sick turn 1 plays but it's a terrible topdeck. And one thing I forgot to mention: It has very bad synergy with trinisphere and chalice which is usually set to 1
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If you want to use multiple land tricks like that, just play 43land.
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Everything is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this 666 times and you will reach enlightenment.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
Green/White Stax is definately doable, but not with the cards you listed.
Exploration is a win-more card with Crucible of Worlds. So what if you can Wasteland someone twice in a row per turn with Crucible? Just recurring Wasteland once each turn is more than enough to bring most decks to their knees. If you want a way to maintain a neutral position with a Smokestack at two counters, turn to a token producer like Elspeth, Knight-Errant.
Crop Rotation is a cool card, but it's not great in Stax. You don't have ridiculously awesome lands to search for nor do you have a toolbox to utilize it.
Most Wg Stax decks splash for Horizon Canopy (gives this deck much-needed card draw that is recurrable with Crucible), Krosan Grip (unstoppable answer to Aether Vial, which completely ruins this deck), and Choke (leverage against blue).
Thanks everyone for your comments. Like I said Im new to the Legacy scene. Been playing T2 and Ext since MirvLight and I want to try something new. Been so bored with those 2 formats I have even started playing EDH(which I love). I only wish there was a format that fell between Legacy and Ext.
I had an interesting situation come up last night where i ended up playing Geddon Stax vs Dutch Stax. How the hell is either player supposed to get an edge in that match up!
Take out a couple Trinisphere (but leave 2 in), the Chalices, and anything you can't see a use playing; replace with Pithing Needle; the rest of the slots either go to anti-graveyard cards or just adding creatures.
You play with three goals:
- Get as many permanents out as possible; Elspeth and Crucible are the most important.
- Focus on Smokestacks and Oblivion Ring. If one player can't force a quick 20 out, the matchup usually is dependent on having the most permanents out and taking the definitive advantage with active Smokestacks. In short, turn the matchup into a battle of who can get some kind of lock out first on the opponent. Armageddon is basically an instant Smokestack for 4-5 in this matchup, and it+Crucible wins games.
- Against Dutch Stax, you'll probably need to win via Elspeth; expect an Oblivion Ring battle to keep your Elspeth out and only use O-Rings for that if possible.
Just read through the thread, and I must say that I'm intrigued. If I happen on 4x Mox Diamond in the future, I'll be sure to throw Stax together. Also interesting to see how Exalted Angel has become obsolete.
On Dutch Stax: Moat seems really bad, both for anti-synergy (factory) and lack of synergy with the deck (which relies on taxing), and for the meta which has plenty of fliers. Humility OTOH seems pretty solid, and has about as much synergy with Ghostly Prison as Magus, but Magus is also a threat, AND Humility costs double white... Humility does wreck D&T though, which was supposedly a hard MU for Stax.
On Elspeth: When you read it, it seems to do a great deal for Stax, but it doesn't really significantly disrupt the opponent. If you need flyers, I was thinking about Eternal Dragon, which hasn't been mentioned so far. Stax Players seem to recommend 25 lands to exploit Mox Diamond, and I'm thinking 2-3 of those could be dragons.
This also brings me to another idea: Planar Portal. Yes, it has an extremely high mana and activation cost, but since you dodge all the taxing yourself, you should have boat loads of mana. Rather than waiting for a good top deck, 2x Planar Portal could make it happen. It's very easy to fit if you simply make some of the less needed lock pieces 3-ofs instead of 4-ofs. And it tutors ANY card. Think of the possibilities!
Finally, you could then add a single Mistveil Plains to recur any lost permanent back for Planar Portal tutoring. It has great synergy with Flagstones of Trokair (making the CIPT moot) and Eternal Dragon.
Also, Dust Bowl was mentioned previously - now there's another card with fantastic synergy with Flagstones and Crucible, drawing out all your plains. Easy to include as a singleton replacing a waste - especially if you run Planar Portal. All this requires a slightly higher Plains count however (I take it out on the Wastes), but Mistveil Plains counts as a Plains, so...
//25 mana sources
5 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
2 Eternal Dragon
+4 Mox Diamond
+2 Planar Portal
= 31 cards, leaving 29 slots for the various business (5x 4-ofs and 3x 3-ofs, probably). What do you think?
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Planar Portal for me has a very high casting cost and activation for what it does. It seems off aswell to be in the stax shell.
I think Planar portal is a good possible addition to this deck. For someone to understand it's usefulness you need to try using it yourself. I for one thought it's a bad card until I get to use it in a game.
I realize Planar Portal may be too slow. This is also a problem for Eternal Dragon. I still don't like Elspeth though, since she require double white. That's really the benefit of armageddon stax - its reliance on only one white mana, which is very hard to disrupt.
I'm finding Mishra's Factory a bit lackluster. We need lots of lands, so I suppose inlcluding one that is also a wincon seems solid. It's just a way to finish off the opponent once you get him locked, I suppose. Still, there are other options. Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai is a token producer with crucible/smokestack synergy. Blinkmoth Nexus is flying but weaker - still it might be good to resolve a stalemate where you need evasion. Even something janky like recursion of Rath's Edge with crucible could funtion as a win condition. I'd also like to include Horizon Canopy as an additional white source and small draw engine with Crucible.
I think the strongest win con in the deck is Magus of the Tabernacle. But it may not be sufficient. For it to go to the dome, you really need to destroy all other blockers. And the only way to do that is with the Magus and added mana denial (see below), or with smokestacks.
I find a problem with this deck to be the reliance of Crucible, which comes from a reliance on Armageddon. Denying mana is prime, since it gives you creature immunity when combined with Magus or Ghostly Prison. Armageddon and wasteland recursion both rely on Crucible, which I find to be an achilles heal.
I'd like to incorporate Static Orb and Tanglewire into the build. They have synergy between themselves, and with every other card in Armageddon Stax. For example, consider the impact of either if Ghostly Prison or Magus is out. Magus + Orb means that only one creature survives and attacks, but if you also have Prison, that won't happen. Prison + Orb only allows occasional attacks. Orb + Tanglewire means the opponent can't do much for several turns. Tanglewire + Magus means most creatures die, and the survivors won't get to attack for some time. Tanglewire + Prison also staves off attacking. None of this requires geddon or Crucible.
Also, Static Orb and Tanglewire are good against the bad MUs, namely landstill and dredge based decks. To fit them, I'd suggest cutting some 4-ofs into 3-ofs. A sample list:
This should be better against Landstill and I don't think any other MU is weakened by the changes. I'm not sure Magus and Reikai suffice for wincons though, but it shouldn't be much different from running factories I suppose.
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I've noticed most builds running more than 24 land or an Elspeth or two usually don't cut Crucible of Worlds. It seems like it's more of an acceptable cut than say Trinisphere, because Crucible isn't a turn one play.
Crucible and Trinisphere are two of the deck's most powerful plays, but neither is good in multiples (unlike Magus or Chalice for instance). My idea was to try and take some pressure off Crucible by providing other mana denial options than geddon and wastes, namely Static Orb (though Winter Orb could work too) and Tanglewire. I'm still not convinced Static Orb wants in, but it seems very synergistic.
EDIT: Another problem I'm finding is lack of 2-drops. The deck almost always has 2 mana on turn 1, 3 mana on turn 1 is much less common. With 2 mana, all you can cast is Chalice@1. Nothing do be ashamed of, but I'd like another solid 2cc artifact in there somwhere. Maybe Winter Orb?
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The problem I see with your list urdjur is that it only runs 3 armageddon's....that card is too powerful not to be run as a 4-of. I agree with cutting down 3sphere and crucible to 3 in the deck because they are pretty redundant. The reikei card is actually really broken in this deck with smokestack and crucible in play you could actually raise smokestack to 2 counters if you needed to or you could just keep it at one and make a huge 1/1 army
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The point of redundant spells in the deck is two-fold; consistency, and the ability to sacrifice peices without losing position. A key attribute of stax is its ability to always draw perms to play once Stax itself comes online. Removing consistency to add trix is always the downfall of a stax player. Some people will run horizon canopy over the 4th wasteland, and sacrifice consistency to add a useless draw outlet that will cost them one of their win conditions; inevitability of their opponents deck out. Anything that cannot be handled in the main board can be sewn up in the sideboard. A good list looks like a lot of 4 ofs:
2 x Tab at Pendrell Vale (Magus if you are not holding 2 Tabs)
Also there are key meta calls... Those are purely up to you, but the SB can tech you into a 3rd Tab at PV, or mirror tech (Charmic Justice). And can handle the big bad bombs with the humility lock.
The whole point of this post is simply to say that consistency is the key to a competative Stax list.
The point of redundant spells in the deck is two-fold; consistency, and the ability to sacrifice peices without losing position. A key attribute of stax is its ability to always draw perms to play once Stax itself comes online. Removing consistency to add trix is always the downfall of a stax player. Some people will run horizon canopy over the 4th wasteland, and sacrifice consistency to add a useless draw outlet that will cost them one of their win conditions; inevitability of their opponents deck out. Anything that cannot be handled in the main board can be sewn up in the sideboard. A good list looks like a lot of 4 ofs:
2 x Tab at Pendrell Vale (Magus if you are not holding 2 Tabs)
Also there are key meta calls... Those are purely up to you, but the SB can tech you into a 3rd Tab at PV, or mirror tech (Charmic Justice). And can handle the big bad bombs with the humility lock.
The whole point of this post is simply to say that consistency is the key to a competative Stax list.
Why in the world would someone play Moat? Legacy is a format defined by many things, but Tendrils of Corruption and Vendillion Clique are pretty common. While I realize Tarmogoyf and friends are just as popular if not more so playing Moat Alongside Prison is just excessive. I would rather run additional Geddon effects in those slots if I really felt I couldn't beat creatures.
Moat is for Fish, Elves, and other such decks. I guess you can play just about any flyer and hope it gets there, but with geddon and tabs, agro decks with minimal to no flyers have very little chance with Moats and Prisons to work through to create effective win strategies. I was attempting to make this constructive, and since the deck has brought me a lot of value I thought I would put in my two cents.
Moat is fine, especially since Elspeth can give a guy flying. Don't forget Gobbos, it's the fear, and in reality all aggro decks. the only cards that i can think of offhand in the format that fly are hypnotic specter + tombstalker. red akroma in dstompy sees some play, and i'm sure i can think of some other stuff if i really tried, but moat does shut down nearly every creature in the format....seems like a decent call to me.
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Moat is just always going to depend on what matchup you're playing. When you're facing faeriegoyf you'll absolutely not want to see moat unless the only creatures they drop are noble hierarch and tarmogoyf which is unlikely.
Yeah tombstalker and hyppie both really hurt dutch stax hyppie because it makes you discard tombstalker because it's a 5/5 beater that will kill you in 4 turns.
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I'm certain everybody noticed World Queller from the Zendikar spoiler. That seems to be one of the few cards in Magic that resembles Smokestack in terms of operation. Unfortunately I really do not foresee World Queller finding a home in the deck, I think its certainly worthy of some discussion and analysis. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=4302242
Unfortunately at 5cc and having the akward side effect of not being able to gib creatures quite effectively as Smokestack it just won't due. Another considering is playing it over a few Magus of the Tabernacle, suplementing that spot with some Tabernacles and running some kind of split between this guy and Smokestack?
I dunno, man. Worldqueller is pretty damn hot. Sure it can only hit one per turn, but it is a 4/4 body. It can block and kill an attacker before the Smokestack would ever make them sacrifice something. And it can continue to do that every turn, effectively being one turn ahead of Smokestack the entire time. But the one caveat, and this is a big one, is that it needs to be paired with something else to ever actually hit the opponent's creatures.
Worldqueller+Crucible+Factory is good, but minus one of them and you can really only get lands. In fact, you really need a Crucible in most cases.
Worldqueller is sadly trash in any of the stax variants. it does less than stacks, less than the tabernacles, and even less than Exalted Angel which has been cut for years.
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I think it's too early to write it off, too. My main concern is that it is like Smokestack but far more cards can get rid of it (anything that kills creatures or does 4+ damage to one creature as well as anything that targets permanents). There are usually fewer main deck answers for artifacts than creatures.
But, viewing it as an addition to the deck rather than an alternative to Smokestack and viewing it as an opportunity to directly specify what type of permanent the opponent has to give up, rather than letting him/her/zir choose is definitely worth proving out.
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Playing: UB Infect or whatever Ali Aintrazi brews in Standard, Reanimator in Legacy and not playing Fail Format.
I have never played the deck yet so this me throwing stuff out. Exploration would allow us to get more permanents on the board that makes Smokestack less painfull on us. Just an idea
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In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
Exploration is a win-more card with Crucible of Worlds. So what if you can Wasteland someone twice in a row per turn with Crucible? Just recurring Wasteland once each turn is more than enough to bring most decks to their knees. If you want a way to maintain a neutral position with a Smokestack at two counters, turn to a token producer like Elspeth, Knight-Errant.
Crop Rotation is a cool card, but it's not great in Stax. You don't have ridiculously awesome lands to search for nor do you have a toolbox to utilize it.
Most Wg Stax decks splash for Horizon Canopy (gives this deck much-needed card draw that is recurrable with Crucible), Krosan Grip (unstoppable answer to Aether Vial, which completely ruins this deck), and Choke (leverage against blue).
You play with three goals:
- Get as many permanents out as possible; Elspeth and Crucible are the most important.
- Focus on Smokestacks and Oblivion Ring. If one player can't force a quick 20 out, the matchup usually is dependent on having the most permanents out and taking the definitive advantage with active Smokestacks. In short, turn the matchup into a battle of who can get some kind of lock out first on the opponent. Armageddon is basically an instant Smokestack for 4-5 in this matchup, and it+Crucible wins games.
- Against Dutch Stax, you'll probably need to win via Elspeth; expect an Oblivion Ring battle to keep your Elspeth out and only use O-Rings for that if possible.
静
On Dutch Stax: Moat seems really bad, both for anti-synergy (factory) and lack of synergy with the deck (which relies on taxing), and for the meta which has plenty of fliers. Humility OTOH seems pretty solid, and has about as much synergy with Ghostly Prison as Magus, but Magus is also a threat, AND Humility costs double white... Humility does wreck D&T though, which was supposedly a hard MU for Stax.
On Elspeth: When you read it, it seems to do a great deal for Stax, but it doesn't really significantly disrupt the opponent. If you need flyers, I was thinking about Eternal Dragon, which hasn't been mentioned so far. Stax Players seem to recommend 25 lands to exploit Mox Diamond, and I'm thinking 2-3 of those could be dragons.
This also brings me to another idea: Planar Portal. Yes, it has an extremely high mana and activation cost, but since you dodge all the taxing yourself, you should have boat loads of mana. Rather than waiting for a good top deck, 2x Planar Portal could make it happen. It's very easy to fit if you simply make some of the less needed lock pieces 3-ofs instead of 4-ofs. And it tutors ANY card. Think of the possibilities!
Finally, you could then add a single Mistveil Plains to recur any lost permanent back for Planar Portal tutoring. It has great synergy with Flagstones of Trokair (making the CIPT moot) and Eternal Dragon.
Also, Dust Bowl was mentioned previously - now there's another card with fantastic synergy with Flagstones and Crucible, drawing out all your plains. Easy to include as a singleton replacing a waste - especially if you run Planar Portal. All this requires a slightly higher Plains count however (I take it out on the Wastes), but Mistveil Plains counts as a Plains, so...
//25 mana sources
5 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
2 Eternal Dragon
+4 Mox Diamond
+2 Planar Portal
= 31 cards, leaving 29 slots for the various business (5x 4-ofs and 3x 3-ofs, probably). What do you think?
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I think Planar portal is a good possible addition to this deck. For someone to understand it's usefulness you need to try using it yourself. I for one thought it's a bad card until I get to use it in a game.
I'm finding Mishra's Factory a bit lackluster. We need lots of lands, so I suppose inlcluding one that is also a wincon seems solid. It's just a way to finish off the opponent once you get him locked, I suppose. Still, there are other options. Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai is a token producer with crucible/smokestack synergy. Blinkmoth Nexus is flying but weaker - still it might be good to resolve a stalemate where you need evasion. Even something janky like recursion of Rath's Edge with crucible could funtion as a win condition. I'd also like to include Horizon Canopy as an additional white source and small draw engine with Crucible.
I think the strongest win con in the deck is Magus of the Tabernacle. But it may not be sufficient. For it to go to the dome, you really need to destroy all other blockers. And the only way to do that is with the Magus and added mana denial (see below), or with smokestacks.
I find a problem with this deck to be the reliance of Crucible, which comes from a reliance on Armageddon. Denying mana is prime, since it gives you creature immunity when combined with Magus or Ghostly Prison. Armageddon and wasteland recursion both rely on Crucible, which I find to be an achilles heal.
I'd like to incorporate Static Orb and Tanglewire into the build. They have synergy between themselves, and with every other card in Armageddon Stax. For example, consider the impact of either if Ghostly Prison or Magus is out. Magus + Orb means that only one creature survives and attacks, but if you also have Prison, that won't happen. Prison + Orb only allows occasional attacks. Orb + Tanglewire means the opponent can't do much for several turns. Tanglewire + Magus means most creatures die, and the survivors won't get to attack for some time. Tanglewire + Prison also staves off attacking. None of this requires geddon or Crucible.
Also, Static Orb and Tanglewire are good against the bad MUs, namely landstill and dredge based decks. To fit them, I'd suggest cutting some 4-ofs into 3-ofs. A sample list:
4 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Horizon Canopy
Creatures (4)
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
Artifacts (23)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
3 Tanglewire
3 Static Orb
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Armageddon
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Defense Grid
3 Pithing Needle
3 Glowrider
3 Sphere of Law
This should be better against Landstill and I don't think any other MU is weakened by the changes. I'm not sure Magus and Reikai suffice for wincons though, but it shouldn't be much different from running factories I suppose.
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EDIT: Another problem I'm finding is lack of 2-drops. The deck almost always has 2 mana on turn 1, 3 mana on turn 1 is much less common. With 2 mana, all you can cast is Chalice@1. Nothing do be ashamed of, but I'd like another solid 2cc artifact in there somwhere. Maybe Winter Orb?
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4 x Prison, Trinisphere, Chalice, Flagstones, Crucible, Stax, Wasteland, Geddon, Diamond, Traitors, Tomb
3 x Moat, Factory
2 x Tab at Pendrell Vale (Magus if you are not holding 2 Tabs)
Also there are key meta calls... Those are purely up to you, but the SB can tech you into a 3rd Tab at PV, or mirror tech (Charmic Justice). And can handle the big bad bombs with the humility lock.
The whole point of this post is simply to say that consistency is the key to a competative Stax list.
Why in the world would someone play Moat? Legacy is a format defined by many things, but Tendrils of Corruption and Vendillion Clique are pretty common. While I realize Tarmogoyf and friends are just as popular if not more so playing Moat Alongside Prison is just excessive. I would rather run additional Geddon effects in those slots if I really felt I couldn't beat creatures.
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Yeah tombstalker and hyppie both really hurt dutch stax hyppie because it makes you discard tombstalker because it's a 5/5 beater that will kill you in 4 turns.
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=4302242
Unfortunately at 5cc and having the akward side effect of not being able to gib creatures quite effectively as Smokestack it just won't due. Another considering is playing it over a few Magus of the Tabernacle, suplementing that spot with some Tabernacles and running some kind of split between this guy and Smokestack?
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Worldqueller+Crucible+Factory is good, but minus one of them and you can really only get lands. In fact, you really need a Crucible in most cases.
Worldqueller+Propaganda is also good.
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Did I just hear a glove hit something? :-P
I think it's too early to write it off, too. My main concern is that it is like Smokestack but far more cards can get rid of it (anything that kills creatures or does 4+ damage to one creature as well as anything that targets permanents). There are usually fewer main deck answers for artifacts than creatures.
But, viewing it as an addition to the deck rather than an alternative to Smokestack and viewing it as an opportunity to directly specify what type of permanent the opponent has to give up, rather than letting him/her/zir choose is definitely worth proving out.
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