Finished at 2-2 at the local today. Brutal loss at the end vs sneak attack.
Rd 1 lost vs affinity, i board in serenity. Game two I cast two serenitys clearing his board.....twice.... I draw nothing but lands for 6 turns.... awkward.
Rd 2 win vs RUG. Ride mother of runes to victory game 1 with a knight. Game two is turn 3 batterskull with mother of runes again.
Rd 3 win vs esper. Game 1 slowly grind him down with exalted triggers, jitte comes online and seals it. Game 2 I have Geist and a knight, he verdicts ( Frown Town ). Top deck JTMS and from there it goes mother of runes, Knight beats.
Rd 4 Sneak. Game 1 Turn 2 Emrakul vs me putting in Pridemage
Game two I brought in my Fow and needles. Starting to amass my army.. I take a shot from emmy... Sac 6. Swing back with double exalted batterskull for the win!:p
Game 3 for 3rd place.... Open with noble, turn 2 another noble and start to beat for 2.... 4 turns and 8 dmg later he goes for show and tell. I pierce, He pierce's my pierce. I pierce again targeting show and tell. He Misdirects my Original pierce to my newly cast pierce. I force of will Show and Tell. Thats right folks he Forces me back. He has 1 card left in hand and its Emrakul. Brutal. Hey I had 4 Aces... he had the stright flush what can you do.
Still happy with my main deck. My sideboard is always changing. I think next week I'll bring in O rings, and a Bog for dredge since it showed up tonight. Sorry for the wall of text that was longer then I thought ( Thats what she said ! )
Finished at 2-2 at the local today. Brutal loss at the end vs sneak attack.
Rd 1 lost vs affinity, i board in serenity. Game two I cast two serenitys clearing his board.....twice.... I draw nothing but lands for 6 turns.... awkward.
Rd 2 win vs RUG. Ride mother of runes to victory game 1 with a knight. Game two is turn 3 batterskull with mother of runes again.
Rd 3 win vs esper. Game 1 slowly grind him down with exalted triggers, jitte comes online and seals it. Game 2 I have Geist and a knight, he verdicts ( Frown Town ). Top deck JTMS and from there it goes mother of runes, Knight beats.
Rd 4 Sneak. Game 1 Turn 2 Emrakul vs me putting in Pridemage
Game two I brought in my Fow and needles. Starting to amass my army.. I take a shot from emmy... Sac 6. Swing back with double exalted batterskull for the win!:p
Game 3 for 3rd place.... Open with noble, turn 2 another noble and start to beat for 2.... 4 turns and 8 dmg later he goes for show and tell. I pierce, He pierce's my pierce. I pierce again targeting show and tell. He Misdirects my Original pierce to my newly cast pierce. I force of will Show and Tell. Thats right folks he Forces me back. He has 1 card left in hand and its Emrakul. Brutal. Hey I had 4 Aces... he had the stright flush what can you do.
Still happy with my main deck. My sideboard is always changing. I think next week I'll bring in O rings, and a Bog for dredge since it showed up tonight. Sorry for the wall of text that was longer then I thought ( Thats what she said ! )
Its been pretty decent against sneak and show, especially with the detention sphere. I may drop the elspeth because decks have been much faster recently and I only really board elsepth against miracles and not much else.
Glad to see people putting time and effort into this archtype!
Esper stoneblade vs Bant stoneblade.
I have played a bunch of bant versions over the past 16 months, but I will focus on the Stoneforge, force, jace builds. I have played this matchup a bunch.
Esper is favored. Despite the similarity in names and sharing 2 colors the decks are very different. Each deck is proactive in a different way and it doesn't line up favorably for bant. Bant puts down threats, esper disrupts your hand and then grinds you. The one mana discard spells are very strong in this matchup, especially if they run 2+ snapcasters. Once the esper player has seen your hand and stripped the most relevant treat you are in a bad spot. If you counter the discard spell, they have an easier time resolving SF or jace later. Bant can put down must deal with threats: T1 noble, T3 knight/clique with counter back up is very strong, but the esper player has access to equal or better creature removal game one and often have lingering souls which buy them several turns simply by chumping your bigger threats. Clearly they don't always have it, but a lingering souls after you slam a knight is demoralizing. The souls can also fly over and hit you with equipment. This is just a tough matchup on the bant side. Wasteland is often your best card, but if the esper player can play around them it is hard to get free wins. Post board, it is important to remember that despite the fact that these decks both can be considered "control" your forces again are actually not very good, so going down to only 1 or 2 post board and bringing in more proactive interaction (geist, sword, etc) is normally a good move. While this might seem counter intuitive if the big problem is single mana discard, you really do not want to be giving them two cards to protect one in your hand. The 1 or 2 forces post board are mostly there for the jace fight, or to protect a threat that is swinging for lethal.
Jund vs Bant Stoneblade
I think the KobeBryan's commentary paints too rosy a picture. This match is tough and the punishing jund matchup is miserable. They will out card advantage you. Force of will is quite poor, as you can't afford to give away a card and their treats are redundant. Similar to the esper matchup, the one mana discard is devastating. Hymn and lily are easy enough to play around in the early turns, less so in the later ones. Bloodbraid elf is a monster, since you can rarely deal with the elf and cascade card at once, and other than knight, your creatures rarely matchup well in combat with it. Punishing fire of course is also very strong against you. Your best hope is normally to ride early equipment, but you are often best served to not get an equipment until you have the mana to hard cast it (meaning jitte is often the first choice, despite batterskull being stronger in a vacuum), as a descent jund player will slow roll a thoughtseize or hymn until they know you have value in your hand. Noble hierachs often die on T1/2 but if they don't you have to be aggressive, since their hand doesn't have burn/decay, it will likely have lily or elf making it imperative that you get ahead, and try to get a read on their line of play. Again wasteland is a strong card for you, but be careful because they have them too. If you run Elspeth, she is great here. Divert in the sideboard is nice as is graveyard hate (bog, crypt, cage, relic) but this matchup is still very tough post board. Path, engineered explosives, o-ring/detention sphere and supreme verdict are all fine, if underwhelming, postboard options against jund.
Additional Comment: It is my experience that Bant is very strong against decks that leave your hand alone. You have powerful cards, and quality tricks. In both of these matchups I described the big issue is that you are dependent on getting and protecting one good threat, while they are set up to disrupt that style of approach. One of my favorite variations on the bant stoneblade approach is to touch black for deathrite shaman. This gives you a way to positively interact with graveyards, taking the sting out of opposing deathrites, snapcasters, goyfs, lingering souls and punishing fires as well as making your acceleration more consistent. Unfortunately to fit these in you have to trim elsewhere which for me always means going to 3 knights, and cutting 3 counters, normally 1-2 force and a pierce or daze. This change makes the RUG delver matchup quite favorable and improves the jund and esper matchups, where you want a few quality counters but the additional treat and flexibility is very useful. The drawback is that you have to be more careful with your land selection on fetches, play around stifle and against combo or counter-top miracles you are more dependent on draws that apply early pressure.
Natural order Bant has a stronger matchup against jund than bant stoneblade, but again, protecting against discard is key. I have not played NO Bant against punishing Jund, I suspect that is a little tougher but don't know.
Geist builds:
Things like Aenesidem proposed on the previous page: My big comment on these is that Jace is not where you want to be.
With geist decks the aggressive cards and cheap disruption gain value. Swords (pick your favorite flavor) are far better in these builds than they are in the more controlling bant decks that only run jitte and batterskull, because they pump the geist power and toughness as well as occasionally make them unblockable. As for cheap disruption, I have played a 4 wasteland, 4 stifle build that tops out on 4 geist and 4 knight. There are times this feels like bad RUG delver but any hand with noble and a threat is very strong and sideboard options are broad.
Edit: Maverick: If you are seeing this a lot, engineered explosives plus academy ruins main deck is very strong, as is supreme verdict/wrath of god in the side board
Glad to see people putting time and effort into this archtype!
Esper stoneblade vs Bant stoneblade.
I have played a bunch of bant versions over the past 16 months, but I will focus on the Stoneforge, force, jace builds. I have played this matchup a bunch.
Esper is favored. Despite the similarity in names and sharing 2 colors the decks are very different. Each deck is proactive in a different way and it doesn't line up favorably for bant. Bant puts down threats, esper disrupts your hand and then grinds you. The one mana discard spells are very strong in this matchup, especially if they run 2+ snapcasters. Once the esper player has seen your hand and stripped the most relevant treat you are in a bad spot. If you counter the discard spell, they have an easier time resolving SF or jace later. Bant can put down must deal with threats: T1 noble, T3 knight/clique with counter back up is very strong, but the esper player has access to equal or better creature removal game one and often have lingering souls which buy them several turns simply by chumping your bigger threats. Clearly they don't always have it, but a lingering souls after you slam a knight is demoralizing. The souls can also fly over and hit you with equipment. This is just a tough matchup on the bant side. Wasteland is often your best card, but if the esper player can play around them it is hard to get free wins. Post board, it is important to remember that despite the fact that these decks both can be considered "control" your forces again are actually not very good, so going down to only 1 or 2 post board and bringing in more proactive interaction (geist, sword, etc) is normally a good move. While this might seem counter intuitive if the big problem is single mana discard, you really do not want to be giving them two cards to protect one in your hand. The 1 or 2 forces post board are mostly there for the jace fight, or to protect a threat that is swinging for lethal.
Jund vs Bant Stoneblade
I think the KobeBryan's commentary paints too rosy a picture. This match is tough and the punishing jund matchup is miserable. They will out card advantage you. Force of will is quite poor, as you can't afford to give away a card and their treats are redundant. Similar to the esper matchup, the one mana discard is devastating. Hymn and lily are easy enough to play around in the early turns, less so in the later ones. Bloodbraid elf is a monster, since you can rarely deal with the elf and cascade card at once, and other than knight, your creatures rarely matchup well in combat with it. Punishing fire of course is also very strong against you. Your best hope is normally to ride early equipment, but you are often best served to not get an equipment until you have the mana to hard cast it (meaning jitte is often the first choice, despite batterskull being stronger in a vacuum), as a descent jund player will slow roll a thoughtseize or hymn until they know you have value in your hand. Noble hierachs often die on T1/2 but if they don't you have to be aggressive, since their hand doesn't have burn/decay, it will likely have lily or elf making it imperative that you get ahead, and try to get a read on their line of play. Again wasteland is a strong card for you, but be careful because they have them too. If you run Elspeth, she is great here. Divert in the sideboard is nice as is graveyard hate (bog, crypt, cage, relic) but this matchup is still very tough post board. Path, engineered explosives, o-ring/detention sphere and supreme verdict are all fine, if underwhelming, postboard options against jund.
Additional Comment: It is my experience that Bant is very strong against decks that leave your hand alone. You have powerful cards, and quality tricks. In both of these matchups I described the big issue is that you are dependent on getting and protecting one good threat, while they are set up to disrupt that style of approach. One of my favorite variations on the bant stoneblade approach is to touch black for deathrite shaman. This gives you a way to positively interact with graveyards, taking the sting out of opposing deathrites, snapcasters, goyfs, lingering souls and punishing fires as well as making your acceleration more consistent. Unfortunately to fit these in you have to trim elsewhere which for me always means going to 3 knights, and cutting 3 counters, normally 1-2 force and a pierce or daze. This change makes the RUG delver matchup quite favorable and improves the jund and esper matchups, where you want a few quality counters but the additional treat and flexibility is very useful. The drawback is that you have to be more careful with your land selection on fetches, play around stifle and against combo or counter-top miracles you are more dependent on draws that apply early pressure.
Natural order Bant has a stronger matchup against jund than bant stoneblade, but again, protecting against discard is key. I have not played NO Bant against punishing Jund, I suspect that is a little tougher but don't know.
Geist builds:
Things like Aenesidem proposed on the previous page: My big comment on these is that Jace is not where you want to be.
With geist decks the aggressive cards and cheap disruption gain value. Swords (pick your favorite flavor) are far better in these builds than they are in the more controlling bant decks that only run jitte and batterskull, because they pump the geist power and toughness as well as occasionally make them unblockable. As for cheap disruption, I have played a 4 wasteland, 4 stifle build that tops out on 4 geist and 4 knight. There are times this feels like bad RUG delver but any hand with noble and a threat is very strong and sideboard options are broad.
Edit: Maverick: If you are seeing this a lot, engineered explosives plus academy ruins main deck is very strong, as is supreme verdict/wrath of god in the side board
The reason for the Jund matchup disparity is because you play the stoneblade version. You fetch the blade, but you still give them another turn to take it. Whereas with GSZ, they never have this chance. I can pound through with stand alone creatures and not worry about losing my sword.
Turn 1 noble, turn 2 drop a ooze, with a divert back up is game against jund.
The reason for the Jund matchup disparity is because you play the stoneblade version. You fetch the blade, but you still give them another turn to take it. Whereas with GSZ, they never have this chance.
It was unclear to me from your primer post and esper break down request that you were on the GSZ plan, sorry if I overlooked that.
I think my breakdowns are on target for stoneblade versions. Certainly if you are on GSZ the play style is different, though the matchup fundamentals don't change that much. You are even more committed to getting a threat on the board and protecting it, and with noble no longer counting (since you don't have equipment to carry) the threat density is not greatly increased. Threat selection based on board state is the primary GSZ advantage, but discard is still problematic, since you have to hold for cmc +1. The occasional silver bullet blowout off of GSZ is nice however. In my experience the GSZ packages (w/o NO) improve the esper matchup a little, but the jund one hardly changes because of the shear amount of removal they have, especially when they are on the punishing jund plan which is the most popular variant over the last two months.
Turn 1 noble, turn 2 drop a ooze, with a divert back up is game against jund.
This sentence bothered me since I first read it. That is a solid opening, absolutely, but to say it is game over is just silly. That opening implies a few things to me:
You are in game 2 or 3, since that sounds like a post board card set. If you are main decking more than one divert you are playing in an interesting meta game. In all cases you have made two land drops and had the ooze in hand rather than getting it off of GSZ, in order to have divert live. If you are playing more than 2 oozes and 2 diverts, I don't understand your list, so this is a low likelihood opening. Given that, what does a game where you open like this look like...
The way this game plays out as far as I see it:
A: 1) you are on the play, and 2) your opponent did not have a bolt in hand, and did not have or chose not to play a one mana discard on T1.
B: 1) You are on the draw, and 2) your opponent is developing a board rather than attacking your resources (hence no T1 discard or T2 removal), which implies they have deathrite and a 2 drop in play, or are holding a 2 mana removal spell for when you tap out to play a bigger threat.
C: Your opponent should not have kept their hand or doesn't understand the matchup (for example sandbags a T1 deathrite).
In scenario A,
- The best possible outcome for you is the opponent has a deathrite in play on T1, and attempts to kill something, likely your noble, on T2 with a 2 mana removal spell which you can then redirect to the deathrite. The death of the deathrite makes your ooze a solid threat, but you now have 3 cards in hand against 5 assuming they made their land drop, and their deck has better card advantage than you.
- The middle scenario is they are on hymn, in which case you divert, so they are on 3-4 cards (depending on T1 deathrite or no) and you are on 3 cards, while you have the better board. I really like your chances here, but your 3 cards need to be decent.
- They have a 2cmc removal heavy hand, with no one drop. In this case on T2 you have a nice board, then pass to them. Divert is useless if they play decay on their T2, unless you really want one creature over the other. Redirecting a freshly drawn bolt to their face or a punishing fire is ok, but I would be inclined to let one of my creatures die depending on my hand, and that means we are in for an interesting game since they probably have more removal, or are about to start playing lily and BBE.
- A worse line for you out of this scenario is that they simply play a Bob, and use their deathrite to foil your ooze while they build their board.
In scenario B,
If you are on the draw, and play noble T1, it means you likely don't have a plow for their deathrite. My logic here is that you have 4-6ish green sources that don't involve fetchlands on T1, so you are unlikely to fetch into noble on one if they already have a deathrite since you don't want to be exposed to T2 Liliana. If they fetched to play the deathrite, then you definitely don't have plow (or a white source), but are lucky since your stated line involves them not having T2 lily. In the narrow set where you have a non-fetch green mana in hand and a plow, the other cards in your hand would decide whether plow or noble is right. You are tapped out as they start T2, so they either stick a creature, a lily off of their fetch in the graveyard (but inexplicably don't make you sac the noble), or hymn you (and miss the land/ooze/divert - one of which is probably on top of your library). It is unlikely that the Jund deck has no T2 play, especially with deathrite active, but for your stated string to come to pass, they can't be killing your noble or wastelanding you on their T2, so those are the likely outcomes. You are not in a great position in any of these.
In scenario C,
Game won't be much fun, but a win is nice.
Clearly there are situations that can happen, like you are on the draw, they thoughtseize you on T1 and you rip Noble then ooze off the top, but in that case they have the information advantage and have already started tearing up your hand so the game is not over in your favor. For my money on the draw or play, I would rather have T1 land, noble, with T2 land and clique them on their draw step. This means my noble lived, I got a threat, information and maybe pushed something I didn't want to deal with.
What I am trying to illustrate is how complex legacy games are and how cavalier statements like "and that is game" are often wrong or the sign of a disengaged player.
Generally, I really like this forum, and I thank you personally for developing it, but in this case it seems that either your opponents have been poor or your experience with the matchup is simply not very deep yet.
Just looking for some input. Geist is there because against creature light decks it swings for 6 and decks like Jund can't take care of it outside of trading.
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It was unclear to me from your primer post and esper break down request that you were on the GSZ plan, sorry if I overlooked that.
I think my breakdowns are on target for stoneblade versions. Certainly if you are on GSZ the play style is different, though the matchup fundamentals don't change that much. You are even more committed to getting a threat on the board and protecting it, and with noble no longer counting (since you don't have equipment to carry) the threat density is not greatly increased. Threat selection based on board state is the primary GSZ advantage, but discard is still problematic, since you have to hold for cmc +1. The occasional silver bullet blowout off of GSZ is nice however. In my experience the GSZ packages (w/o NO) improve the esper matchup a little, but the jund one hardly changes because of the shear amount of removal they have, especially when they are on the punishing jund plan which is the most popular variant over the last two months.
Edit:
This sentence bothered me since I first read it. That is a solid opening, absolutely, but to say it is game over is just silly. That opening implies a few things to me:
You are in game 2 or 3, since that sounds like a post board card set. If you are main decking more than one divert you are playing in an interesting meta game. In all cases you have made two land drops and had the ooze in hand rather than getting it off of GSZ, in order to have divert live. If you are playing more than 2 oozes and 2 diverts, I don't understand your list, so this is a low likelihood opening. Given that, what does a game where you open like this look like...
The way this game plays out as far as I see it:
A: 1) you are on the play, and 2) your opponent did not have a bolt in hand, and did not have or chose not to play a one mana discard on T1.
B: 1) You are on the draw, and 2) your opponent is developing a board rather than attacking your resources (hence no T1 discard or T2 removal), which implies they have deathrite and a 2 drop in play, or are holding a 2 mana removal spell for when you tap out to play a bigger threat.
C: Your opponent should not have kept their hand or doesn't understand the matchup (for example sandbags a T1 deathrite).
In scenario A,
- The best possible outcome for you is the opponent has a deathrite in play on T1, and attempts to kill something, likely your noble, on T2 with a 2 mana removal spell which you can then redirect to the deathrite. The death of the deathrite makes your ooze a solid threat, but you now have 3 cards in hand against 5 assuming they made their land drop, and their deck has better card advantage than you.
- The middle scenario is they are on hymn, in which case you divert, so they are on 3-4 cards (depending on T1 deathrite or no) and you are on 3 cards, while you have the better board. I really like your chances here, but your 3 cards need to be decent.
- They have a 2cmc removal heavy hand, with no one drop. In this case on T2 you have a nice board, then pass to them. Divert is useless if they play decay on their T2, unless you really want one creature over the other. Redirecting a freshly drawn bolt to their face or a punishing fire is ok, but I would be inclined to let one of my creatures die depending on my hand, and that means we are in for an interesting game since they probably have more removal, or are about to start playing lily and BBE.
- A worse line for you out of this scenario is that they simply play a Bob, and use their deathrite to foil your ooze while they build their board.
In scenario B,
If you are on the draw, and play noble T1, it means you likely don't have a plow for their deathrite. My logic here is that you have 4-6ish green sources that don't involve fetchlands on T1, so you are unlikely to fetch into noble on one if they already have a deathrite since you don't want to be exposed to T2 Liliana. If they fetched to play the deathrite, then you definitely don't have plow (or a white source), but are lucky since your stated line involves them not having T2 lily. In the narrow set where you have a non-fetch green mana in hand and a plow, the other cards in your hand would decide whether plow or noble is right. You are tapped out as they start T2, so they either stick a creature, a lily off of their fetch in the graveyard (but inexplicably don't make you sac the noble), or hymn you (and miss the land/ooze/divert - one of which is probably on top of your library). It is unlikely that the Jund deck has no T2 play, especially with deathrite active, but for your stated string to come to pass, they can't be killing your noble or wastelanding you on their T2, so those are the likely outcomes. You are not in a great position in any of these.
In scenario C,
Game won't be much fun, but a win is nice.
Clearly there are situations that can happen, like you are on the draw, they thoughtseize you on T1 and you rip Noble then ooze off the top, but in that case they have the information advantage and have already started tearing up your hand so the game is not over in your favor. For my money on the draw or play, I would rather have T1 land, noble, with T2 land and clique them on their draw step. This means my noble lived, I got a threat, information and maybe pushed something I didn't want to deal with.
What I am trying to illustrate is how complex legacy games are and how cavalier statements like "and that is game" are often wrong or the sign of a disengaged player.
Generally, I really like this forum, and I thank you personally for developing it, but in this case it seems that either your opponents have been poor or your experience with the matchup is simply not very deep yet.
I didn't think people took things so literally on this forum. Of course it isn't game on a turn 2 drop with one mana open with a threat in play. What i'm saying is you have a very very superior advantage at this point because you make nearly 6-7 of their cards null, their thoughtseizes and hymns.
Surely they can cast creatures which your divert can never do anything about. but by chance that they do cast hymn, you can almost end their game if you get 3 of their cards for 1.
How about you draft the matchup analysis for stoneblade while I do the gsz version.
or i can just delete my entire matchup analysis and have you do it since you have much more experience than i do.
I also don't know why anyone would play stoneblade with bant. Using green does not give you any advantage over running black. Nearly all cards overlap one another except you get to use knights. In fact, black gives you a strong advantage from discard, creature removal and creatures.
I really wouldn't play geist without any swords. He is a 2/2 creature and maybe a 4/4 at best. Without the necessary power/toughness buffs, its not worth it. He will be idle for far too long to make it worth your while.
On the issue of Gaddock teeg, everyone and their moms are playing sneak and show right now. The only cards teeg stops in this matchup is the sneak attack, and force of will, which you need yourself. It also shuts your own jaces and gszs for knights.
The new tin fins combo runs absolutely no 4 mana cost spells.
That leaves you with belcher, ANT, and helms combo. At this point, your force of wills and other counter magic will deal with the first two decks. helms combo, you have qasali pridemages to deal with the RIP and the helm.
So gaddock teeg really isn't all too necessary in my opinion. Gaddock teeg is used in maverick because they lack the counters and they lack jace.
I'm not agree with you, I play geist because of my 4 hierarch and 2 qasali pridemage, and as you say he could be 4/4 what is a great body^^ After that Geist of Saint traft + Maze of ith or Karakas= many tricks to save your geist and put a clock on your opponent. Another good point for geist is "pitchable" on Force of will.
About Gaddock , I'm not interresting by it maindeck. But in SB, it is a good addition against control (Esperblade, Bug control or Miracle).
Finally about Force of will, how many blue cards you must play if you want 4 FoW ?? Actually, I have 12 blue cards (without FoW) is it enough?
went to a little tournament (side-event of gpVerona, about 80 people), i've closed 5-2, losing to esper (2-0, mulligan in both games and in g1 even mana screw), and losing to jund (win g1, lose g2 after an unreal game, lose g3-->completely sodomized).
the other matches i've won was:
s&s-->2-1 (the game i've loss was the first, with him closing on turn 3 protected)
ant-->2-0 (no way, ooze in g1, gaddock in g2, always protected by sylvan safekeeper)
white weenie-->2-1 (lol, game 1 double mother of runes takes the game, g2 g3 no way out with 6 plowshares and 2 needle against vial and mother)
canadian-->2-1 (game1 lose due to a fast delver-flipped with brainstorm double protected with daze and fow, g2 fast thrun exalted and g3 knight protected with safekeeper..gg)
urdelver-->2-0 (jitte owns the game)
some thoughts:
i feel good with the maindeck, manabase is perfect. never felt to miss the 4° tropical or some basic.
maybe i will cut the 3° vendilion, but now i have no idea on what could be a substitute (basically i always want to see vendilion in each game, and if a see to many copies, it could be a pitch for fow)
sylvan library needs to be banned!!...i can't see my deck without it. i board it out only against fast aggro, or urdelver (like yesterday), but against esper/bug/jund/canadian/s&s i would always see it.
sideboard: the only card i would cut is bog, never needed it, neither against ant (double ooze its enough)
i think the deck is perfectly in meta, but we need a very good solution against jund. any ideas?
With the amount of Double UU that you need. You should run 3 tundras over the 2 savannahs. I always felt savannahs are underwhelming and never needed it. I still use one just in case.
You dont use bog for the ANT matchup. You use it for the dredge matchup or reanimator matchup. You should have enough combo hate against ANT anyways. No point of weakening your deck with sideboarding bog.
How do you feel about 14 cards supporting force of will?
Out of the board, I would remove the supreme verdict and elspeth. There's really no point of running supreme verdict since you really need a board presence to win. I'm quite sure you really didn't board in supreme verdict at any time.
As for elspeth, what matchups are you boarding her in? I usually only board her in against Miracles and counter top decks. I don't board her in against jund, bug, rug, blade decks. Now, if you consider your board, you have cliques and a variety of different CMC spells. the Miracles and countertop matchups shouldn't be all that big of a problem. Since there is a decline of miracles and countertop, I think you can save that slot for better cards that fight the meta...ie. phantasmal image, detention sphere, gilded drake.
I'm still not sure about thrun at this moment. It has won me games against Bug, rug, and jund, but it wasn't really all that necessary either.
for the manabase: you're right, 6 double UU costs is a lot, I will try.
for the bog: what i tried to say was that yesterday i never felt it necessary, not even against ant (obviously is there against dredge, but with 2 ooze and 6 plowshares i think i'm quite safe)
about 14 blue cards: you have to make decision. sometimes you have to pitch a jace , sometimes a vendilion. depends on the matchup you are against. it's hard to explain: i've tested a lot, with 7 slots for counters (4 fow 3 daze), too many in my opinion;4 fows are too much, good players play around daze so i think 4 slots is a configuration that let you counter the right spell, the spell that you cannot treath in that point of the game (i.e.: fast liliana, jace, entreat, a show and tell)...there are many variables...:-/
supreme verdict: tell me an opponent that keep his creature in hand against your deck...noone; if you open it in your starting hand, you can drop a simple manadork and burn everything on turn 3/4 against: canadian, goblin, elves, merfolks, jund...and don't tell me that engeenered explosives it's quite the same because against canadian and goblin (and i don't wanna fight against goblin...never) e.e. sucks.
elspeth: miracle, esper, bug, even jund sometimes...a fast elspeth against jund could be a problem, as for bug, they have to drop a fast solution or have to find bolt+punishing, or drop a bloodbraid to cascade into a bolt or decay...and its not enough to kill elspeth.
I haven't tested it a lot against miracle, because i've played too few matches against this deck.
I kinda of agree with you on the supreme verdict. People do tend to drop things as fast as possible. But the decks u use this for would be what...goblins, merfolk, elves, and what else? I dont' think you'd really want it against rug or bug because your plows and paths are just too much for them to handle anyways.
As for elsepth, I tried it against bug and rug, but it stayed in the hand far too long for it to be effective because of their mana denial strategy.
I see it being good against miracles thats for sure. But they are on the way down anyways. I don't know about esper stoneblade.
I always found the 3 basics were primordial. My configuration has always been: 3 tropicals, 2 tundra's 1 savannah and 1 plains 1 island 1 forest. This has been the best setup for me. Against RUG and other wasteland decks you want to be able to fetch basics, and you actually need ALL your colors because you want to be casting removal, KotR and your brainstorms. I don't think we can miss the basic lands as being held off our mana is what makes us lose most games.
14 cards is too little for FoW imo. Like people said before, you are always pitching business spells. That's why i like some ponder/snapcaster mage in my mainboard. They help reinforce the gameplan of Bant by improving card quality and up th eblue count for Force of Will. You don't ant to be pitching jace, brainstorm or clique. Everytime i had to do that i died a little inside and i had to do that a lot. On th eother hand you find yourself in situations where you have nothing to pitch to FoW, that happens a lot. This makes FoW extremely bad in this deck and probably the worst card we have maindeck. If you really want to run FoW maindeck (which is a good idea since combo is rising) i'd up the spell pierce count and add some ponders.
E.E. doesn't suck, it's one of the best cards i have ever played. But indeed in Bant it can be underwhelming since we have such a spread out curve and we actually rely on creatures. Supreme verdict sucks for the same reason as E.E. in this deck though. You are taking your own threats away. And i don't think verdict is good against a skilled goblins player. You know what will happen after the verdict? we will be searching for a threat while they have already reloaded and are back in action. The best option if you are scared of goblins is dueling ground. It's tutorable by E tutor so it doesn't clog up your sideboard and it's actually good against any creature deck. You don't have to eliminate your own threats. You take advantage of this enchantment because you'll always have the bigger creature on the battlefield.
Elspeth is actually not a bad choice. I do board it in against jund/bug. Why? because we need strong topdecks that evade AD. Elspeth is exactly that. As a bonus she is good against miracle decks which will be back on the rise after the 2 SCG open wins. Same with thrun, it's quite good against Miracles, Good against jund and BUG if you can deal with liliana. I feel we only need 1 of the 2 though, and my preferrance goes to Elspeth
Disagree with EE but agree with you on the elspeth and thrun.
EE doesn't do anything except against elves and merfolk. And even then, its not that good against elves.
I agree with you that you should run either Elsepth or Thrun, but not both. The deck already has a decent to solid matchup against countertop/miracles deck for you to dedicate too many sideboard choices.
supreme verdict: tell me an opponent that keep his creature in hand against your deck...noone
As a seasoned Goblins player, if I already have a strong board state, I will definitely stop casting Goblins unless I need to. A good Goblins player always has a Matron or Ringleader in hand to reload against decks with wipes (anything UW, W, Bx). It's what makes the deck so powerful.
EE Question: I love EE, but I won't play it without academy ruins. It has a lot of value against aggro decks but also against stuff that is hard to interact with like enchantress. The ability to loop EE off of ruins makes it very strong. Ruins also lets you buy back equipment and occasionally you get to do very cute things, for example this weekend I was fortunate enough to open a G3 hand against dredge which contained Tormod's crypt and ruins.
My Deck
I tend towards heavier blue bant decks than most on this forum, and have been on stoneblade recently. My local store hosts weekly legacy events with 16-28 people. There is always at least 2 dredge, 2-4 esper stoneblade, 2-3 Storm (ANT and TES), 1-4 sneak and show, 1-2 RUG, 1-2 goblins. After that it gets very random very quickly. I am never surprised to see: imperial painter, elves, jund, BUG (sometimes with NO), tin-fins, miracle, enchantress, poison, team italia, SB Zombies, high tide, UR delver, burn, maverick, affinity, etc. Most of the locals have 2-3 decks they play so metagaming is a challenge. This is why I like the heavy blue since there is a lot of combo and stoneforge since lots of decks just can't beat jitte. This is also why I like cards like meddling mage (good, but not amazing, against a lot of combo decks and can pitch to fow).
Thoughts on this deck build:
- Canonists were overkill, but I had had some tough beats against Storm and omnitell with pedals over the past month so I just decided I wasn't going to lose to that nonsense. Those spots should probably be counterspell, flusterstorm #2, or spell snare.
- 19 blue cards main is pretty nice with force, almost never stuck, and normally have options on what to pitch.
- I don't like daze, but I want a fifth free counter against combo, and it has enough value against aggro game one that it fits better in the main than the board.
- Detention sphere as an extra out to show and tell as well as general removal. Being blue is also nice.
- Played the Elspeth because I saw it in a list on SCG recently, and hadn't played it in a while. It was fun, but not really what I want. Elspeth is ok as a threat and awesome against any deck that runs abrupt decay. Most of the time I just play the third clique or second snapcaster.
- Verdict is nice as a reset button, especially in the stoneblade versions where equipment and Elspeth mean you can be on the attack very rapidly.
- I clearly hate losing to dredge, but with 4 hate cards I almost never do!
- I love bog. Solid against RUG and storm, excellent against Jund and dredge.
- This deck doesn't blow anything out, and the jund matchup is not good, but it has very reasonable odds against the field. For a meta like mine it is right where I want to be. If people have card recommendations I would be happy to hear them.
Maybe I am over cautious with the jund, bug, and rug matchup so i play the 3 diverts and 3 path to exiles. I may be able to cut 1 of either one to add something i cannot thing of. Maybe an elsepth, thrun, or krosan grip.
In one of my main deck flex spots I have been looking for a more regular draw/filtering card. I am looking at Jace Beleren, sensei's divining top, and sylvan library. Am I missing something obvious? I know some folks on here are big fans of library. Anyone have strong feelings on the other two? My mana often runs a little tight so I am pretty sure top is my least favorite of the three.
@ KobeBryan
In the dark, I like krosan grip over Thrun or Elspeth in the board. It is very strong against miracles, any deck with equipment or library, mana rocks, etc, where as Elspeth and Thrun are largely just other beaters for a deck built like yours, and while they have unique abilities, grip gets you out of a lot of situations a threat won't/ deals with your opponents attempts to stabilize (batterskull, energy field, etc).
Deathrite is awesome, it is a very solid splash. I would run 2+ black sources, however, since you sometime draw it early and have to play it out into potential wasteland.
Here are two versions of the NO Deathrite Bant I have run:
Bant controlling version with 10 ways to get Progenitus out of your hand if you draw it. 20 blue spells (including force and progenitus). Dryad Arbor is listed as both a land and creature, so there are only 60 cards.
Green Sun Maverick version with 8 ways to get Progenitus out of your hand if you draw it. Because this deck is so mana greedy and I play against a lot f wasteland decks, I cut my own wastelands for colored sources. On only 21 lands, even with the mana dorks, I wouldn't run more than 2. The control version has slightly less greedy mana and can play a longer game better so wastelands fit there better in my opinion, though that could be wrong since the disruption wasteland gives you can be great for these pressure based decks.
Both are good at T3 Progenitus, you just have to decide if that is good enough for your meta. Deathrite makes RUG Delver a very favorable matchup and improves esper stoneblade and dredge game 1. The deathrite NO version is very strong against traditional jund (I haven't played it against punishing Jund). My biggest problem with these decks has been finding good sideboard plans. Enlightened tutor packages are nice. The version without counters has a lot of trouble with storm and hand disruption, so I have used cards like leyline of sanctity, but I really hate that card. When I expected a lot of countrol decks I have even tried putting a stoneforge package in the sideboard to swap in for the NO package, but that was underwhelming. I have also tried splashing heavier black for abrupt decay and pulse and a few other cards. The mana gets very bad, very quickly if you have spells that require black to cast in your main deck. It makes you cut basics and play your lands out into bad situations. I would avoid any true black cards in the main. Putting them in the board is easier to justify, since you have more information when bringing them in. If you are good an building manabases, I would love some input because I got off of these decks mostly for mana reasons (though an up tick in faster combo also pushed me back to more bant controlish lists).
If you are good an building manabases, I would love some input because I got off of these decks mostly for mana reasons (though an up tick in faster combo also pushed me back to more bant controlish lists).
General comments:
-I have played a good number/mix of NO lists and not been excited with the deck's function as a "combo" deck, which this list is heavily oriented toward. I would cut a Natural Order and a couple utility creatures (12 t1 accelerants might be a bit excessive with a mostly-low curve, Scryb Ranger is really unexciting) for a few more real threats (Goyf or, adding white, Knight).
-In the same vein, I think you want Swords or some kind of removal. Order is really slow. Creature decks can race your hoard of mana dorks and leave you with a Hydra who can't attack without dying to the counterattack.
-Either way, I think you need to figure out what colors you want to run and play them. You have 1 non-fetchable White land with 2 White cards in the deck (Pridemage could just be decay), and 3 Black lands with 0 Black cards in the deck - just an activated ability.
-The second list is better in this regard, but swings further into 4C land than is necessary (lookin at you, Lingering Souls). It's not hard to play a real UGWb Order deck with Force of Will, StP, and a reasonable mana base.
-Manabase obviously depends on your sideboard. If you're running 4 Lilys in the board, that changes things. Cut Swamp - it's only providing one activated ability. Include a White dual if you run white cards. I think you should play more White cards, and play 2 white duals, but have at least 1 thing to fetch.
As a note related to this list but in the wrong thread, I've been playing a BUG Order list that I love, and I think that's the place to be for Natural Order decks. Bant Order does draw-out-fair-game-until-Progenitus well and disruption well. BUG is well suited to grindy matches at the moment and opens up discard as a strong disruption (and protection) option.
I grinded the **** outta this deck these last two days against Jund, Rock, and miracles.
I can conclusively tell you jund and rock is HARD. they have too many removals and too many discard for you to ever get a stable board presence. From what I can tell you, If you get these Jund and Rock decks with a sweet divert, you can win the game. Especially if you get them with a hymn. Jund is a bit harder than rock only because some play punishing fire which kills all your mana dorks. Rock is slightly better because they are more prone to graveyard hate and they have slightly less removals.
Turn 1 with a thoughtseize is a very very annoying move. If they follow it up with a hymn or a sinkhole, you are in big big trouble. I would rate this matchup at about 25% win percentage. Easier than elves, harder than maverick. At least with maverick, you dont' get discarded as frequently. All of these decks are still poor matchups.
As for miracles, its not hard at all to beat this deck. You do not even need thrun, teeg, or elspeth to stand a chance against them. With vendillion clique, the matchup is very sweet. Just board out the removals and board in more counters. The miracles player tend to counter your creatures quite a bit , which leaves them open for your counters against their win spells.
Since I reached this result, I don't think i will be playing teeg. Teeg is really a tool for maverick since they dont' have counters against the miracles decks and other combo decks.
Nevertheless, I still think its a hard deck to bring to a tournament. I have been testing eva green and I think i'm getting better results than with bant.
Since I reached this result, I don't think i will be playing teeg. Teeg is really a tool for maverick since they dont' have counters against the miracles decks and other combo decks.
Storm is getting better, and Teeg is really wonderful there.
Did you try NO in the Jund match? Historically, having a "blue-diluted" deck in the fair matches is well compensated for by Natural Order. Lily's edict + PF for removal gives them a better set of outs than (e.g.) Maverick, but this certainly goes over-the-top of the power level of their spells.
Storm is getting better, and Teeg is really wonderful there.
Did you try NO in the Jund match? Historically, having a "blue-diluted" deck in the fair matches is well compensated for by Natural Order. Lily's edict + PF for removal gives them a better set of outs than (e.g.) Maverick, but this certainly goes over-the-top of the power level of their spells.
This.
Since counterspells are at a low, shenanigans like NO-PRO or NO-Worldspine Wurm (I'm serious) ruin people. I've seen some sneak decks run Wurm and he's just too overwhelming. Even with edicts running about, it's over. He also trumps a lot of the show and tell cards (races progenitus hard).
I'd consider Progenitus in the main for NO and Wurm in the side god forbid they pack a lot of removal.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I don't get what you say on the miracles matchup. You say junk has a lot of removal, miracles had double. I don't see why they would counter your creatures, that is just bad play. A good miracle player will keep his counters for your jace and to protect their important spells. RIP makes your KotR a 2/2 crature.
It's true their counterbalance is less good against you but they tend to cut down to 2 counterbalances anyway.
Let me clarify that up.
Miracles do have removal. but it doesn't have as many as junk or jund. Those two decks pack 4 abrupt decays, 3 swords to plowshares, discard, and lilianas. Jund even has punishing fire. These two decks also put a clock on you meaning you have to fight them with your own creatures.
Whereas miracles, they never do anything for turns. I know there is terminus, but terminus doesn't really hurt you since it just puts your cards back into your library. You still have the opportunity to search for it after a shuffle, meaning you get to play your threats again since they won't disappear forever like the junk and jund matchups. Miracles plays 4 plows and 3 terminus, far less than the other two decks.
Also, miracles do not really put a clock on you. Games usually go over 25 turns. You actually put a clock on them, forcing them to answer you. After their plows, they have to use their counters to stop you or you will kill them fairly quickly. They cannot sustain taking 5 damage a turn.
Its not really bad play if they counter your creatures since the game is stalled out far too long. Also, you would be foolish to drop multiple creatures all at once against a miracles deck. A simple noble heirarch with qasali is enough to put a good clock on them, enough to force them to use terminus on your mana dorks.
Storm is getting better, and Teeg is really wonderful there.
Did you try NO in the Jund match? Historically, having a "blue-diluted" deck in the fair matches is well compensated for by Natural Order. Lily's edict + PF for removal gives them a better set of outs than (e.g.) Maverick, but this certainly goes over-the-top of the power level of their spells.
I really havne't thought of playing NO yet because of Edict and liliana. These black decks are packing edicts to answer show and tell. So there's a lot of creature removal.
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Rd 1 lost vs affinity, i board in serenity. Game two I cast two serenitys clearing his board.....twice.... I draw nothing but lands for 6 turns.... awkward.
Rd 2 win vs RUG. Ride mother of runes to victory game 1 with a knight. Game two is turn 3 batterskull with mother of runes again.
Rd 3 win vs esper. Game 1 slowly grind him down with exalted triggers, jitte comes online and seals it. Game 2 I have Geist and a knight, he verdicts ( Frown Town ). Top deck JTMS and from there it goes mother of runes, Knight beats.
Rd 4 Sneak. Game 1 Turn 2 Emrakul vs me putting in Pridemage
Game two I brought in my Fow and needles. Starting to amass my army.. I take a shot from emmy... Sac 6. Swing back with double exalted batterskull for the win!:p
Game 3 for 3rd place.... Open with noble, turn 2 another noble and start to beat for 2.... 4 turns and 8 dmg later he goes for show and tell. I pierce, He pierce's my pierce. I pierce again targeting show and tell. He Misdirects my Original pierce to my newly cast pierce. I force of will Show and Tell. Thats right folks he Forces me back. He has 1 card left in hand and its Emrakul. Brutal. Hey I had 4 Aces... he had the stright flush what can you do.
Still happy with my main deck. My sideboard is always changing. I think next week I'll bring in O rings, and a Bog for dredge since it showed up tonight. Sorry for the wall of text that was longer then I thought ( Thats what she said ! )
Show your sideboard.
Mine is as follows
3 divert
2 detention sphere
1 elspeth
1 crop rotation
3 path to exile
2 flusterstorm
1 spell pierce
1 gaddock teeg
Its been pretty decent against sneak and show, especially with the detention sphere. I may drop the elspeth because decks have been much faster recently and I only really board elsepth against miracles and not much else.
Maverick -- Storm
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Esper stoneblade vs Bant stoneblade.
I have played a bunch of bant versions over the past 16 months, but I will focus on the Stoneforge, force, jace builds. I have played this matchup a bunch.
Esper is favored. Despite the similarity in names and sharing 2 colors the decks are very different. Each deck is proactive in a different way and it doesn't line up favorably for bant. Bant puts down threats, esper disrupts your hand and then grinds you. The one mana discard spells are very strong in this matchup, especially if they run 2+ snapcasters. Once the esper player has seen your hand and stripped the most relevant treat you are in a bad spot. If you counter the discard spell, they have an easier time resolving SF or jace later. Bant can put down must deal with threats: T1 noble, T3 knight/clique with counter back up is very strong, but the esper player has access to equal or better creature removal game one and often have lingering souls which buy them several turns simply by chumping your bigger threats. Clearly they don't always have it, but a lingering souls after you slam a knight is demoralizing. The souls can also fly over and hit you with equipment. This is just a tough matchup on the bant side. Wasteland is often your best card, but if the esper player can play around them it is hard to get free wins. Post board, it is important to remember that despite the fact that these decks both can be considered "control" your forces again are actually not very good, so going down to only 1 or 2 post board and bringing in more proactive interaction (geist, sword, etc) is normally a good move. While this might seem counter intuitive if the big problem is single mana discard, you really do not want to be giving them two cards to protect one in your hand. The 1 or 2 forces post board are mostly there for the jace fight, or to protect a threat that is swinging for lethal.
Jund vs Bant Stoneblade
I think the KobeBryan's commentary paints too rosy a picture. This match is tough and the punishing jund matchup is miserable. They will out card advantage you. Force of will is quite poor, as you can't afford to give away a card and their treats are redundant. Similar to the esper matchup, the one mana discard is devastating. Hymn and lily are easy enough to play around in the early turns, less so in the later ones. Bloodbraid elf is a monster, since you can rarely deal with the elf and cascade card at once, and other than knight, your creatures rarely matchup well in combat with it. Punishing fire of course is also very strong against you. Your best hope is normally to ride early equipment, but you are often best served to not get an equipment until you have the mana to hard cast it (meaning jitte is often the first choice, despite batterskull being stronger in a vacuum), as a descent jund player will slow roll a thoughtseize or hymn until they know you have value in your hand. Noble hierachs often die on T1/2 but if they don't you have to be aggressive, since their hand doesn't have burn/decay, it will likely have lily or elf making it imperative that you get ahead, and try to get a read on their line of play. Again wasteland is a strong card for you, but be careful because they have them too. If you run Elspeth, she is great here. Divert in the sideboard is nice as is graveyard hate (bog, crypt, cage, relic) but this matchup is still very tough post board. Path, engineered explosives, o-ring/detention sphere and supreme verdict are all fine, if underwhelming, postboard options against jund.
Additional Comment: It is my experience that Bant is very strong against decks that leave your hand alone. You have powerful cards, and quality tricks. In both of these matchups I described the big issue is that you are dependent on getting and protecting one good threat, while they are set up to disrupt that style of approach. One of my favorite variations on the bant stoneblade approach is to touch black for deathrite shaman. This gives you a way to positively interact with graveyards, taking the sting out of opposing deathrites, snapcasters, goyfs, lingering souls and punishing fires as well as making your acceleration more consistent. Unfortunately to fit these in you have to trim elsewhere which for me always means going to 3 knights, and cutting 3 counters, normally 1-2 force and a pierce or daze. This change makes the RUG delver matchup quite favorable and improves the jund and esper matchups, where you want a few quality counters but the additional treat and flexibility is very useful. The drawback is that you have to be more careful with your land selection on fetches, play around stifle and against combo or counter-top miracles you are more dependent on draws that apply early pressure.
Natural order Bant has a stronger matchup against jund than bant stoneblade, but again, protecting against discard is key. I have not played NO Bant against punishing Jund, I suspect that is a little tougher but don't know.
Geist builds:
Things like Aenesidem proposed on the previous page: My big comment on these is that Jace is not where you want to be.
With geist decks the aggressive cards and cheap disruption gain value. Swords (pick your favorite flavor) are far better in these builds than they are in the more controlling bant decks that only run jitte and batterskull, because they pump the geist power and toughness as well as occasionally make them unblockable. As for cheap disruption, I have played a 4 wasteland, 4 stifle build that tops out on 4 geist and 4 knight. There are times this feels like bad RUG delver but any hand with noble and a threat is very strong and sideboard options are broad.
Edit:
Maverick: If you are seeing this a lot, engineered explosives plus academy ruins main deck is very strong, as is supreme verdict/wrath of god in the side board
The reason for the Jund matchup disparity is because you play the stoneblade version. You fetch the blade, but you still give them another turn to take it. Whereas with GSZ, they never have this chance. I can pound through with stand alone creatures and not worry about losing my sword.
Turn 1 noble, turn 2 drop a ooze, with a divert back up is game against jund.
It was unclear to me from your primer post and esper break down request that you were on the GSZ plan, sorry if I overlooked that.
I think my breakdowns are on target for stoneblade versions. Certainly if you are on GSZ the play style is different, though the matchup fundamentals don't change that much. You are even more committed to getting a threat on the board and protecting it, and with noble no longer counting (since you don't have equipment to carry) the threat density is not greatly increased. Threat selection based on board state is the primary GSZ advantage, but discard is still problematic, since you have to hold for cmc +1. The occasional silver bullet blowout off of GSZ is nice however. In my experience the GSZ packages (w/o NO) improve the esper matchup a little, but the jund one hardly changes because of the shear amount of removal they have, especially when they are on the punishing jund plan which is the most popular variant over the last two months.
Edit:
This sentence bothered me since I first read it. That is a solid opening, absolutely, but to say it is game over is just silly. That opening implies a few things to me:
You are in game 2 or 3, since that sounds like a post board card set. If you are main decking more than one divert you are playing in an interesting meta game. In all cases you have made two land drops and had the ooze in hand rather than getting it off of GSZ, in order to have divert live. If you are playing more than 2 oozes and 2 diverts, I don't understand your list, so this is a low likelihood opening. Given that, what does a game where you open like this look like...
The way this game plays out as far as I see it:
A: 1) you are on the play, and 2) your opponent did not have a bolt in hand, and did not have or chose not to play a one mana discard on T1.
B: 1) You are on the draw, and 2) your opponent is developing a board rather than attacking your resources (hence no T1 discard or T2 removal), which implies they have deathrite and a 2 drop in play, or are holding a 2 mana removal spell for when you tap out to play a bigger threat.
C: Your opponent should not have kept their hand or doesn't understand the matchup (for example sandbags a T1 deathrite).
In scenario A,
- The best possible outcome for you is the opponent has a deathrite in play on T1, and attempts to kill something, likely your noble, on T2 with a 2 mana removal spell which you can then redirect to the deathrite. The death of the deathrite makes your ooze a solid threat, but you now have 3 cards in hand against 5 assuming they made their land drop, and their deck has better card advantage than you.
- The middle scenario is they are on hymn, in which case you divert, so they are on 3-4 cards (depending on T1 deathrite or no) and you are on 3 cards, while you have the better board. I really like your chances here, but your 3 cards need to be decent.
- They have a 2cmc removal heavy hand, with no one drop. In this case on T2 you have a nice board, then pass to them. Divert is useless if they play decay on their T2, unless you really want one creature over the other. Redirecting a freshly drawn bolt to their face or a punishing fire is ok, but I would be inclined to let one of my creatures die depending on my hand, and that means we are in for an interesting game since they probably have more removal, or are about to start playing lily and BBE.
- A worse line for you out of this scenario is that they simply play a Bob, and use their deathrite to foil your ooze while they build their board.
In scenario B,
If you are on the draw, and play noble T1, it means you likely don't have a plow for their deathrite. My logic here is that you have 4-6ish green sources that don't involve fetchlands on T1, so you are unlikely to fetch into noble on one if they already have a deathrite since you don't want to be exposed to T2 Liliana. If they fetched to play the deathrite, then you definitely don't have plow (or a white source), but are lucky since your stated line involves them not having T2 lily. In the narrow set where you have a non-fetch green mana in hand and a plow, the other cards in your hand would decide whether plow or noble is right. You are tapped out as they start T2, so they either stick a creature, a lily off of their fetch in the graveyard (but inexplicably don't make you sac the noble), or hymn you (and miss the land/ooze/divert - one of which is probably on top of your library). It is unlikely that the Jund deck has no T2 play, especially with deathrite active, but for your stated string to come to pass, they can't be killing your noble or wastelanding you on their T2, so those are the likely outcomes. You are not in a great position in any of these.
In scenario C,
Game won't be much fun, but a win is nice.
Clearly there are situations that can happen, like you are on the draw, they thoughtseize you on T1 and you rip Noble then ooze off the top, but in that case they have the information advantage and have already started tearing up your hand so the game is not over in your favor. For my money on the draw or play, I would rather have T1 land, noble, with T2 land and clique them on their draw step. This means my noble lived, I got a threat, information and maybe pushed something I didn't want to deal with.
What I am trying to illustrate is how complex legacy games are and how cavalier statements like "and that is game" are often wrong or the sign of a disengaged player.
Generally, I really like this forum, and I thank you personally for developing it, but in this case it seems that either your opponents have been poor or your experience with the matchup is simply not very deep yet.
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells (20)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Detention Sphere
3 Submerge
Just looking for some input. Geist is there because against creature light decks it swings for 6 and decks like Jund can't take care of it outside of trading.
Playing:
Modern:
BWEldrazi and TaxesBW
Legacy:
WEldraziW
I didn't think people took things so literally on this forum. Of course it isn't game on a turn 2 drop with one mana open with a threat in play. What i'm saying is you have a very very superior advantage at this point because you make nearly 6-7 of their cards null, their thoughtseizes and hymns.
Surely they can cast creatures which your divert can never do anything about. but by chance that they do cast hymn, you can almost end their game if you get 3 of their cards for 1.
How about you draft the matchup analysis for stoneblade while I do the gsz version.
or i can just delete my entire matchup analysis and have you do it since you have much more experience than i do.
I also don't know why anyone would play stoneblade with bant. Using green does not give you any advantage over running black. Nearly all cards overlap one another except you get to use knights. In fact, black gives you a strong advantage from discard, creature removal and creatures.
On the issue of Gaddock teeg, everyone and their moms are playing sneak and show right now. The only cards teeg stops in this matchup is the sneak attack, and force of will, which you need yourself. It also shuts your own jaces and gszs for knights.
The new tin fins combo runs absolutely no 4 mana cost spells.
That leaves you with belcher, ANT, and helms combo. At this point, your force of wills and other counter magic will deal with the first two decks. helms combo, you have qasali pridemages to deal with the RIP and the helm.
So gaddock teeg really isn't all too necessary in my opinion. Gaddock teeg is used in maverick because they lack the counters and they lack jace.
you want 18....and that is pushing it.
With the amount of Double UU that you need. You should run 3 tundras over the 2 savannahs. I always felt savannahs are underwhelming and never needed it. I still use one just in case.
You dont use bog for the ANT matchup. You use it for the dredge matchup or reanimator matchup. You should have enough combo hate against ANT anyways. No point of weakening your deck with sideboarding bog.
How do you feel about 14 cards supporting force of will?
Out of the board, I would remove the supreme verdict and elspeth. There's really no point of running supreme verdict since you really need a board presence to win. I'm quite sure you really didn't board in supreme verdict at any time.
As for elspeth, what matchups are you boarding her in? I usually only board her in against Miracles and counter top decks. I don't board her in against jund, bug, rug, blade decks. Now, if you consider your board, you have cliques and a variety of different CMC spells. the Miracles and countertop matchups shouldn't be all that big of a problem. Since there is a decline of miracles and countertop, I think you can save that slot for better cards that fight the meta...ie. phantasmal image, detention sphere, gilded drake.
I'm still not sure about thrun at this moment. It has won me games against Bug, rug, and jund, but it wasn't really all that necessary either.
I kinda of agree with you on the supreme verdict. People do tend to drop things as fast as possible. But the decks u use this for would be what...goblins, merfolk, elves, and what else? I dont' think you'd really want it against rug or bug because your plows and paths are just too much for them to handle anyways.
As for elsepth, I tried it against bug and rug, but it stayed in the hand far too long for it to be effective because of their mana denial strategy.
I see it being good against miracles thats for sure. But they are on the way down anyways. I don't know about esper stoneblade.
Disagree with EE but agree with you on the elspeth and thrun.
EE doesn't do anything except against elves and merfolk. And even then, its not that good against elves.
I agree with you that you should run either Elsepth or Thrun, but not both. The deck already has a decent to solid matchup against countertop/miracles deck for you to dedicate too many sideboard choices.
As a seasoned Goblins player, if I already have a strong board state, I will definitely stop casting Goblins unless I need to. A good Goblins player always has a Matron or Ringleader in hand to reload against decks with wipes (anything UW, W, Bx). It's what makes the deck so powerful.
LEGACY:
BURGAd Nauseum TendrilsGRUB
MODERN:
RWGBurnGWR
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR
UWBrago, King EternalUW
I love EE, but I won't play it without academy ruins. It has a lot of value against aggro decks but also against stuff that is hard to interact with like enchantress. The ability to loop EE off of ruins makes it very strong. Ruins also lets you buy back equipment and occasionally you get to do very cute things, for example this weekend I was fortunate enough to open a G3 hand against dredge which contained Tormod's crypt and ruins.
My Deck
I tend towards heavier blue bant decks than most on this forum, and have been on stoneblade recently. My local store hosts weekly legacy events with 16-28 people. There is always at least 2 dredge, 2-4 esper stoneblade, 2-3 Storm (ANT and TES), 1-4 sneak and show, 1-2 RUG, 1-2 goblins. After that it gets very random very quickly. I am never surprised to see: imperial painter, elves, jund, BUG (sometimes with NO), tin-fins, miracle, enchantress, poison, team italia, SB Zombies, high tide, UR delver, burn, maverick, affinity, etc. Most of the locals have 2-3 decks they play so metagaming is a challenge. This is why I like the heavy blue since there is a lot of combo and stoneforge since lots of decks just can't beat jitte. This is also why I like cards like meddling mage (good, but not amazing, against a lot of combo decks and can pitch to fow).
My list from this weekend:
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Snapcaster Mage
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Vendilion Clique
Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
1x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares
Planeswalker (4)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifact (2)
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Ponder
Land (23)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Savannah
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
3x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Meddling Mage
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Detention Sphere
1x Flusterstorm
2x Path to Exile
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
Thoughts on this deck build:
- Canonists were overkill, but I had had some tough beats against Storm and omnitell with pedals over the past month so I just decided I wasn't going to lose to that nonsense. Those spots should probably be counterspell, flusterstorm #2, or spell snare.
- 19 blue cards main is pretty nice with force, almost never stuck, and normally have options on what to pitch.
- I don't like daze, but I want a fifth free counter against combo, and it has enough value against aggro game one that it fits better in the main than the board.
- Detention sphere as an extra out to show and tell as well as general removal. Being blue is also nice.
- Played the Elspeth because I saw it in a list on SCG recently, and hadn't played it in a while. It was fun, but not really what I want. Elspeth is ok as a threat and awesome against any deck that runs abrupt decay. Most of the time I just play the third clique or second snapcaster.
- Verdict is nice as a reset button, especially in the stoneblade versions where equipment and Elspeth mean you can be on the attack very rapidly.
- I clearly hate losing to dredge, but with 4 hate cards I almost never do!
- I love bog. Solid against RUG and storm, excellent against Jund and dredge.
- This deck doesn't blow anything out, and the jund matchup is not good, but it has very reasonable odds against the field. For a meta like mine it is right where I want to be. If people have card recommendations I would be happy to hear them.
A playset of Misdirections on sideboard.
Maybe some diverts too.
2 surgical extraction
2 detention sphere
1 gaddock teeg
3 divert
3 path to exile
2 flusterstorm
1 spell pierce
Maybe I am over cautious with the jund, bug, and rug matchup so i play the 3 diverts and 3 path to exiles. I may be able to cut 1 of either one to add something i cannot thing of. Maybe an elsepth, thrun, or krosan grip.
@ KobeBryan
In the dark, I like krosan grip over Thrun or Elspeth in the board. It is very strong against miracles, any deck with equipment or library, mana rocks, etc, where as Elspeth and Thrun are largely just other beaters for a deck built like yours, and while they have unique abilities, grip gets you out of a lot of situations a threat won't/ deals with your opponents attempts to stabilize (batterskull, energy field, etc).
Here are two versions of the NO Deathrite Bant I have run:
Bant controlling version with 10 ways to get Progenitus out of your hand if you draw it. 20 blue spells (including force and progenitus). Dryad Arbor is listed as both a land and creature, so there are only 60 cards.
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Swamp
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wasteland
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
Creature (16)
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Progenitus
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scryb Ranger
3x Vendilion Clique
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order
2x Ponder
Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Green Sun Maverick version with 8 ways to get Progenitus out of your hand if you draw it. Because this deck is so mana greedy and I play against a lot f wasteland decks, I cut my own wastelands for colored sources. On only 21 lands, even with the mana dorks, I wouldn't run more than 2. The control version has slightly less greedy mana and can play a longer game better so wastelands fit there better in my opinion, though that could be wrong since the disruption wasteland gives you can be great for these pressure based decks.
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
3x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
1x Sensei's Divining Top
Creature (19)
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Progenitus
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Lingering Souls
4x Natural Order
Instant (8)
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Both are good at T3 Progenitus, you just have to decide if that is good enough for your meta. Deathrite makes RUG Delver a very favorable matchup and improves esper stoneblade and dredge game 1. The deathrite NO version is very strong against traditional jund (I haven't played it against punishing Jund). My biggest problem with these decks has been finding good sideboard plans. Enlightened tutor packages are nice. The version without counters has a lot of trouble with storm and hand disruption, so I have used cards like leyline of sanctity, but I really hate that card. When I expected a lot of countrol decks I have even tried putting a stoneforge package in the sideboard to swap in for the NO package, but that was underwhelming. I have also tried splashing heavier black for abrupt decay and pulse and a few other cards. The mana gets very bad, very quickly if you have spells that require black to cast in your main deck. It makes you cut basics and play your lands out into bad situations. I would avoid any true black cards in the main. Putting them in the board is easier to justify, since you have more information when bringing them in. If you are good an building manabases, I would love some input because I got off of these decks mostly for mana reasons (though an up tick in faster combo also pushed me back to more bant controlish lists).
Basically, deathrite is great. Give it a try.
General comments:
-I have played a good number/mix of NO lists and not been excited with the deck's function as a "combo" deck, which this list is heavily oriented toward. I would cut a Natural Order and a couple utility creatures (12 t1 accelerants might be a bit excessive with a mostly-low curve, Scryb Ranger is really unexciting) for a few more real threats (Goyf or, adding white, Knight).
-In the same vein, I think you want Swords or some kind of removal. Order is really slow. Creature decks can race your hoard of mana dorks and leave you with a Hydra who can't attack without dying to the counterattack.
-Either way, I think you need to figure out what colors you want to run and play them. You have 1 non-fetchable White land with 2 White cards in the deck (Pridemage could just be decay), and 3 Black lands with 0 Black cards in the deck - just an activated ability.
-The second list is better in this regard, but swings further into 4C land than is necessary (lookin at you, Lingering Souls). It's not hard to play a real UGWb Order deck with Force of Will, StP, and a reasonable mana base.
-Manabase obviously depends on your sideboard. If you're running 4 Lilys in the board, that changes things. Cut Swamp - it's only providing one activated ability. Include a White dual if you run white cards. I think you should play more White cards, and play 2 white duals, but have at least 1 thing to fetch.
As a note related to this list but in the wrong thread, I've been playing a BUG Order list that I love, and I think that's the place to be for Natural Order decks. Bant Order does draw-out-fair-game-until-Progenitus well and disruption well. BUG is well suited to grindy matches at the moment and opens up discard as a strong disruption (and protection) option.
I can conclusively tell you jund and rock is HARD. they have too many removals and too many discard for you to ever get a stable board presence. From what I can tell you, If you get these Jund and Rock decks with a sweet divert, you can win the game. Especially if you get them with a hymn. Jund is a bit harder than rock only because some play punishing fire which kills all your mana dorks. Rock is slightly better because they are more prone to graveyard hate and they have slightly less removals.
Turn 1 with a thoughtseize is a very very annoying move. If they follow it up with a hymn or a sinkhole, you are in big big trouble. I would rate this matchup at about 25% win percentage. Easier than elves, harder than maverick. At least with maverick, you dont' get discarded as frequently. All of these decks are still poor matchups.
As for miracles, its not hard at all to beat this deck. You do not even need thrun, teeg, or elspeth to stand a chance against them. With vendillion clique, the matchup is very sweet. Just board out the removals and board in more counters. The miracles player tend to counter your creatures quite a bit , which leaves them open for your counters against their win spells.
Since I reached this result, I don't think i will be playing teeg. Teeg is really a tool for maverick since they dont' have counters against the miracles decks and other combo decks.
Nevertheless, I still think its a hard deck to bring to a tournament. I have been testing eva green and I think i'm getting better results than with bant.
Storm is getting better, and Teeg is really wonderful there.
Did you try NO in the Jund match? Historically, having a "blue-diluted" deck in the fair matches is well compensated for by Natural Order. Lily's edict + PF for removal gives them a better set of outs than (e.g.) Maverick, but this certainly goes over-the-top of the power level of their spells.
This.
Since counterspells are at a low, shenanigans like NO-PRO or NO-Worldspine Wurm (I'm serious) ruin people. I've seen some sneak decks run Wurm and he's just too overwhelming. Even with edicts running about, it's over. He also trumps a lot of the show and tell cards (races progenitus hard).
I'd consider Progenitus in the main for NO and Wurm in the side god forbid they pack a lot of removal.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Let me clarify that up.
Miracles do have removal. but it doesn't have as many as junk or jund. Those two decks pack 4 abrupt decays, 3 swords to plowshares, discard, and lilianas. Jund even has punishing fire. These two decks also put a clock on you meaning you have to fight them with your own creatures.
Whereas miracles, they never do anything for turns. I know there is terminus, but terminus doesn't really hurt you since it just puts your cards back into your library. You still have the opportunity to search for it after a shuffle, meaning you get to play your threats again since they won't disappear forever like the junk and jund matchups. Miracles plays 4 plows and 3 terminus, far less than the other two decks.
Also, miracles do not really put a clock on you. Games usually go over 25 turns. You actually put a clock on them, forcing them to answer you. After their plows, they have to use their counters to stop you or you will kill them fairly quickly. They cannot sustain taking 5 damage a turn.
Its not really bad play if they counter your creatures since the game is stalled out far too long. Also, you would be foolish to drop multiple creatures all at once against a miracles deck. A simple noble heirarch with qasali is enough to put a good clock on them, enough to force them to use terminus on your mana dorks.
I really havne't thought of playing NO yet because of Edict and liliana. These black decks are packing edicts to answer show and tell. So there's a lot of creature removal.