@XavierMTG: Are you consistently able to cast Clique and True-Name with the double U requirement?
Rafiq is cool, but definitely a win-more card. Hows the deck been fairing so far against the meta?
@Shyter: How has your updated list been doing in the meta? I'm getting closer and closer to removing the Geist and adding Cliques.
Also I see both you guys are on Abrupt Decay.
Where has is been the most useful?
I've only been able to get in a few games of playtest since I made the above changes, mostly against U/R Delver, Goblins, 12-post, and Dredge. I play paper, so my options are limited here locally. None of my friends have a Miracles or a D&T deck together, which bums me out.
Against Delver if I get a decent hand, I'm probably going to win. Sometimes it's a grind, but we just out-value them once the initial draws are dumped and the decks are top decking (or near enough.) Price of Progress hurts though. That's something I try to save to have the counter war over. Since I play relatively heavy counter it keeps those games winnable.
The UU on six of my creatures hasn't been an issue at all so far. I haven't been up against any mana denial to speak of though. I've also taken to playing two Undergrounds and dropped the Bayou. I have a high fetch count so if I'm playing the T1 DRS I'm either sitting behind a Daze or wanting them to think I am. The Underground shows the threat of activation on the DRS that the Tropical doesn't and it ups my U count overall.
Abrupt Decay is great. In my mind it's still "not supposed to be mainboard" but it's consistently good so I'm keeping it in for the foreseeable future. Even against the un-targetable creatures, they're usually running equipment. Taking those out still tilts the race in our favor. It kills everything that Delver plays with; same with BUG and RUG since they seldom run TNN. On paper, it's great against Miracles, but I'll have to defer to someone with experience there for any real detail.
Yes, Rafiq is a toy. I would pull him if I was going anywhere important. I'd take it out for a Sylvan Library most likely. I find my self wanting another threat though sometimes. I'm tempted to take out a Swords since I'm playing two Decays main. Any suggestions there? A Scavenging Ooze back in maybe. I don't have a Goyf.
I've only been able to get in a few games of playtest since I made the above changes, mostly against U/R Delver, Goblins, 12-post, and Dredge. I play paper, so my options are limited here locally. None of my friends have a Miracles or a D&T deck together, which bums me out.
12-post has been very difficult for me Game 1. How do you fair against them with only 1 Wasteland? Game 2, I have access to Surgical Extraction after Wasteland on a Post-land.
Yes, Rafiq is a toy. I would pull him if I was going anywhere important. I'd take it out for a Sylvan Library most likely. I find my self wanting another threat though sometimes. I'm tempted to take out a Swords since I'm playing two Decays main. Any suggestions there? A Scavenging Ooze back in maybe. I don't have a Goyf.
Wow, I just realized you aren't running Stoneforge Mystic at all...in that case I would definitely find room for:
Add
2x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Karakas
-----------------
-3x Spell Pierce
-2x TNN
-1x Rhox
-1x Rafiq
-1x Daze
-1x Force
I tried to do the whole run 2x Green Sun/ 2x Shaman, but often found that I just either wanted the Shaman or something of substance to grab.
Like you mentioned, TNN needs equiptment to really go over the top...so Stoneforge is his greatest compliment.
You have too many reactive elements in my opinion, I would also not remove the swords...you want your attackers to get through.
Against 12-post it's bad. Both because the deck's so fast and because I only have a couple of sideboard cards that really help.
Disclaimer: My friend plays a Vintage deck. That means no Titans, but it does mean Mishra's Workshop, Lotus, Moxen, Metalworkers, and Vault/Crypt/Sol Ring w/Voltaic Keys. He still plays the posts with four Candelabra of Tawnos. I don't know how much this'll help here in the Legacy forum, but here's my experience.
Turn 1 Lodestone Golem is devastating. If I can't Force it or eat it once and then Swords it, it's GG. Turn 1 Metalworker is doable as I have a turn to get rid of it. I bring in Stony Silence and Engineered Explosives along with the tutors and the extra Abrupt Decay. EE on 0 wipes the Moxes. I side out the three Spell Pierces and the Jittes. I try to keep the Pridemage for a Steel Hellkite as I can kill the Lodestones with a TNN.
I'm probably 30/70 in this matchup. The games I do win are because he just doesn't get any business or it's an uphill battle after I Swords a big Eldrazi. Resolved (always hardcast ) Emrakul is GG. All is Dust sucks most supremely as well, but at least it can be countered. StP is definitely the all-star in this matchup aside from the sideboard cards. They play relatively few threats. Everything they have can kill you, but they don't play counter. If you can remove what they have and get the deck to top-deck mode (and they don't have an Eye of Ugin) you can overcome with card advantage.
8 dork list, with pridemages, 2 walkers and 2 geist. Sideboard seems a little jumbled, but pretty clear what the pilot was going for. All in all, I really like it and it is nice to see a good Bant result.
It's an interesting list...very similar to most of our brews (less mine because I still carry a tiny torch for GSZ.) A couple of things stick out to me:
4 Wasteland - I guess it's still pretty good even with no backup other than Daze.
1 Karakas - With no way to fetch it.
0 Treasure Cruise - Just not missing them perhaps?
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Mainboard is an uncommon choice.
I'm thinking of tweaking my list and I have a couple of questions. What is the minimum # of spells to run Delver? Is 24 enough? 28?
4 Wasteland - I guess it's still pretty good even with no backup other than Daze.
1 Karakas - With no way to fetch it.
0 Treasure Cruise - Just not missing them perhaps?
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Mainboard is an uncommon choice.
I'm thinking of tweaking my list and I have a couple of questions. What is the minimum # of spells to run Delver? Is 24 enough? 28?
Here are my thoughts:
Wastelands: At their core, they trade a colorless source of yours for a colored source of theirs. With daze to apply some pressure on their mana, and dorks to give you more mana, wasteland allows you to create a sustained mana advantage. You rarely completely lock them out like RUG Delver w/ Stifle, but you get ahead on mana. It is then up to you to use this resource advantage.
Karakas: Clearly it is very strong with geist and clique. In a combo rich metagame it is a wonderful card as it is a direct out to reanimator and sneak and show in many situations, as well as allowing you to apply the clique pseudo-lock. I would play a ponder in that spot and put the Karakas in the board, but it is an excellent card for this strategy. It will have other applications verses thalia, teeg, etc, so as long as your opponent is not on wastelands it is normally a very good draw. If lots of wastelands are floating around running an additional fetch or dual might be preferable.
TC: without prob and ponder this cards power is substantially decreased. While not a completely fair comparison (clearly) this deck playing TC verses UR delver playing TC is sort of like playing Ancestral Visions verses an opponent with Ancestral recall. Powerful but not ideal. I was a proponent of 2-3 TC in this type of deck for a while, but now would lean towards ponder first if you want more filtering and card draw.
Elspeth: She is like a pseudo equipment when you have any creature in play should you need to force through damage, and her token generation can lock up the ground and take over stalled or empty boards. Another card I like in the side but again, with all the dorks, casting her is not difficult and she is a very powerful threat. When delver decks have to turn their attention to a PW instead of your life total they are significantly handicapped, and the fact that she starts at effective 5 loyalty + a 1/1 body makes her exceedingly tough for them. Garruk Relentless serves a similar roll in a metagame with fewer bolts and more green and white creatures (dies to bolt but stalls the board or removes a threat).
Spells for Delver: I played BUG delver for a while and was constantly varying the spell count based on # of liliana's, creatures and odd cards like library. 26+ is the sweet spot in my mind.
Sword of Fire and Ice is there due largely to TNN, though the ability to pick off delvers, swiftspears, deathrites, etc is very powerful and is in my mind why it can be maindecked. The card draw ability is also valuable in game 1 combo matches where your other equipment are lacking. SoFaF is good in the latter spot (though generally I would rather draw a card than take their weakest one) but much worse in the earlier ones. Stoneforge plus jitte and batterskull is absolutely worth playing. SoFaF is a sideboard card at best in my mind.
@limbo:
I agree with your assessments, especially concerning 4x Wasteland. With so many dorks its like playing 2 lands a turn; then Wasteland your opponent. I was even thinking of going all in on the mana denial plan and running 2-3x Stifle mainboard.
Ok, so I've changed it to put back in the SFM without the sword. I'll work on getting one, but getting Geists will be the priority (and easier.) I'm liking the idea of the 2/2 split with Geist/Clique and then three TNN. For now, I've left the GSZ in there, but it'll probably come out due to card space and the fact that the deck is very...unfocused at this point. Still, I'm going to try to get in a few games like this:
The 4x Wasteland/Stifle intrigues me. I'd like to see a list run with those, Judge's Familiar, and Geists since you can Stifle the leaves-play trigger to keep the angel token. Delver might work in that list as well if you push the spell count.
The 4x Wasteland/Stifle intrigues me. I'd like to see a list run with those, Judge's Familiar, and Geists since you can Stifle the leaves-play trigger to keep the angel token. Delver might work in that list as well if you push the spell count.
If I get some time, I will post a bant stifle list. The problem there is the tension between stifle and mana dorks. Clearly both have a lot of late game value but both are also at their best on T1. When you know what your opponent is playing this is easy to manage, but in G1 of an unknown matchup this is quite annoying. I have never found a satifactory answer to this, which is why I typically don't play stifle and just use the mana advantage already built into the deck.
If you are planning on running JF, geist and delver, along with stifle, you are either not running an stoneforge (which is a mistake with geist in my mind) or no longer have room for noble, which pretty much means you are straight UW (or you splash Red or black for removal). Delver with JF should likely be in a UB shell to allow thoughtseize along with daze and stifle.
The 4x Wasteland/Stifle intrigues me. I'd like to see a list run with those, Judge's Familiar, and Geists since you can Stifle the leaves-play trigger to keep the angel token. Delver might work in that list as well if you push the spell count.
You could tweak this list, http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7313&d=241890&f=LE, to run Stifle and Geist.
I'd do:
-2 Looter il-Kor
-2 Mother of Runes
-3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
-----------------------------
+4 Stifle
+2 Geist of Saint Traft
+1 Vendilion Clique (or Birds of Paradise for the 5th mana dork)
Thanks StreetMage, I'm playing tonight and I may try that list. I'd like to find room for a third TNN and the fourth Daze in that list though. Maybe I can take out a land and a SFM.
What are everyone's thoughts on only running 3 Stoneforge Mystics? With only two equipment, I don't want to run into a dead fetch. Also, I feel that I can find them with just three copies with the 4x Brainstorm and 3x Treasure Cruise.
The other direction I may go is to drop the GSZs(sniff) and the War Monk and add the two Geists and a Shaman. That list would end up pretty close with SM's from post #462.
Thanks StreetMage, I'm playing tonight and I may try that list. I'd like to find room for a third TNN and the fourth Daze in that list though. Maybe I can take out a land and a SFM.
What are everyone's thoughts on only running 3 Stoneforge Mystics? With only two equipment, I don't want to run into a dead fetch. Also, I feel that I can find them with just three copies with the 4x Brainstorm and 3x Treasure Cruise.
The other direction I may go is to drop the GSZs(sniff) and the War Monk and add the two Geists and a Shaman. That list would end up pretty close with SM's from post #462.
Since this deck wins on the battlefield I think you have to take advantage of equipment.
I would find room for a Sword of Fire and Ice main and yes definitely add the other Stoneforge.
Basically in a format as Legacy you want to do the most powerful things.
In Bant Aggro decks, Stoneforge and True-Name are the powerplays imho.
So when I'm deciding what hand to keep game 1 (unknown opponent) I usually want either:
1) Dork, Mana, True-name/Geist/Clique: (I can turn 2 drop a big threat, considering I have the 3rd land)
2) Stoneforge, FOW, Blue Card: (I can drop Stoneforge and protect it to drop equipment, i.e Batterskull)
3) Wasteland, Dork, Removal: (I can mana denial my opponent, while having mana advantage; then swords their mana dork or turn 1 threat i.e Delver)
Imagine in scenario 3 if instead of removal you have Stifle.
Could be in your case: Wasteland, Judge's Familiar, Stifle, Noble, Fetchland, Stoneforge, FOW, TNN.
Just my two cents...and yea Green Sun may not fit the bill.
Following Bant Deathblade list when 10-5 at SCG legacy open this week. Very midrange: 4 deathrites, 3 knights, no nobles or dazes. Bant Deathblade
Hmm, quite reactive with the 3c Spell Pierces, Spell Snare and Counterspell mainboard.
Also, I wonder how 2x Dig Through Time synergize with 2x Knight of Reliquary and 4x Shaman.
Daze is too strong not to include and Knight being susceptible to Swords and Abrupt Decay is why I decided to drop him.
I'd almost rather see him take out the Digs and run Green Sun...
I've been running Spell Pierce for quite a while and I don't see myself taking it out any time soon. It's good in nearly every match-up. I don't know about Spell Snare and Counterspell though. I'd be more prone to add a Misdirection or Flusterstorm to my board if my meta was that combo-heavy.
I've also taken out one GSZ and the Rhox War Monk for two Geist of Saint Traft to try them out. I'll post results once I get some games in.
Does anyone see any potential in any of the new Fate Reforged cards for Bant? I see Monastery Mentor as the only possible, and even that one doesn't really excite me. It obviously has some synergy with Brainstorm, Swords, etc., but the rest of our deck is reactive. Granted, the counters cast on other turns do create permanent tokens, but with only 20-24 spells in most lists I don't see it breaking any games. It also doesn't protect itself as we like our creatures to do. It also competes with our existing and solid 3-drops. It's definitely not better than TNN, Geist, or Clique.
Thoughts on that or does anyone else see potential in anything else that was spoiled?
**Edit**
Well, after saying I'll never take out Spell Pierce, I started thinking about what changes I would make if I did. I came up with the following:
I like being somewhat counter-heavy. I see the Daze and the Misdirection as direct swaps for two of the Pierces. I never really liked four Dazes as they are somewhat dead mid-late game, but the extra "Force" I think helps with an extra outlet. The extra DRS just firms up the game-plan. With that many 3-drops, the dorks are important (not telling most of you anything new here.)
Does anyone see any potential in any of the new Fate Reforged cards for Bant? I see Monastery Mentor as the only possible, and even that one doesn't really excite me. It obviously has some synergy with Brainstorm, Swords, etc., but the rest of our deck is reactive. Granted, the counters cast on other turns do create permanent tokens, but with only 20-24 spells in most lists I don't see it breaking any games. It also doesn't protect itself as we like our creatures to do. It also competes with our existing and solid 3-drops. It's definitely not better than TNN, Geist, or Clique.
Thoughts on that or does anyone else see potential in anything else that was spoiled?
**Edit**
Well, after saying I'll never take out Spell Pierce, I started thinking about what changes I would make if I did. I came up with the following:
I like being somewhat counter-heavy. I see the Daze and the Misdirection as direct swaps for two of the Pierces. I never really liked four Dazes as they are somewhat dead mid-late game, but the extra "Force" I think helps with an extra outlet. The extra DRS just firms up the game-plan. With that many 3-drops, the dorks are important (not telling most of you anything new here.)
Yea, Monastery Mentor is too expensive and competes with our powerful 3 drops.
As for the updates I think you are getting close to other builds out there, I don't see need for the Dryad Arbor without Green Sun, its essentially a come into play tapped land. I'd just take him out for the 3rd Shaman. Also I'd take out a Savannah and put in another Tropical Island; you're pretty blue heavy.
These are just recommendations, have you been able to get in some games, that's pretty much the real indicator of what changes would benefit you and your play style. If you want I can post some videos of games I've played on mtgo against various decks. Hopefully they are still saved in my account.
Thanks for the feedback, StreetMage. If you can post some vids of your (or any other good Bant) deck in action, I'd definitely watch them.
I don't do MTGO, so I'm hoping these are on YouTube. That said, I'd swap the Savannah out for the Tropical Island in a heartbeat if I had another one. I have it all in paper, so it's the $$$ that's stopping that swap. If I went to play anywhere important, I could probably bum one off of a buddy. My LGS has started doing Legacy FNM, so I can't wait to get by and run this.
For now, I'm keeping the Arbor, even without the GSZ. I've found I'm looking to fetch it in most games in order to get that surprise blocker or attacker next turn. EOT fetch and equip after a board wipe or removal storm surprises most people the first time and they're wary of it on subsequent games, sometimes even keeping a blocker when they probably shouldn't. Other than that, it's easy to tuck with a Brainstorm.
It's sad nothing more exciting came out of the last expansion. It's not even released yet and I'm meh about it...
Following Bant Deathblade list when 10-5 at SCG legacy open this week. Very midrange: 4 deathrites, 3 knights, no nobles or dazes. Bant Deathblade
I've been testing this deck and it's pretty nuts. It seems to win a lot. There's a lot that I don't understand about it. Strangely, the one problem that hasn't occurred is the Delving away my Knight pump lands.
How does this thing get away with 4 dorks, 7 three-drop threats, and a Bojuka Bog MD? What is that Tabernacle in the sideboard for?
I've been testing this deck and it's pretty nuts. It seems to win a lot. There's a lot that I don't understand about it. Strangely, the one problem that hasn't occurred is the Delving away my Knight pump lands.
How does this thing get away with 4 dorks, 7 three-drop threats, and a Bojuka Bog MD? What is that Tabernacle in the sideboard for?
I don't really know.
Once you have an active Knight, her utility is generally such that even if she is small, she is good.
This deck is playing more controlling than the 8 dork aggro decks that have been discussed here before, hence no daze, inclusion of counterspell, pierce and snare, etc. As such 4 dorks is fine as a mana boost but you don't need them to stay ahead. 7 three-drops is plenty since stoneforge and deathrite are also substantial threats. This controlling stance also mitigates the conflict between knight and deathrite/delve.
Bog is a bullet to turn off your opponent's ability to delve early, or to respond to graveyard actions. It is also a black source for deathrite. I don't see a Tabernacle in this version, though some do run one as a way to suppress the value of young pyromancer, and to tax aggressive decks.
Well, RIP Treasure Cruise. I don't see this weakening our position much. In fact, it probably improves it because it does nerf the B/R Delver decks et. al. For the short term, I'll just be swapping in Ponders in its' place. I'll probably go down to two though to give me another slot. Thoughts from everyone else?
All three are good against control decks (shardless, deathblade, miracles). If those are on the rise, these are good cards to be bringing in. Library is almost always worth a spot in the board in any green aggro or midrange deck.
Rafiq is cool, but definitely a win-more card. Hows the deck been fairing so far against the meta?
@Shyter: How has your updated list been doing in the meta? I'm getting closer and closer to removing the Geist and adding Cliques.
Also I see both you guys are on Abrupt Decay.
Where has is been the most useful?
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Against Delver if I get a decent hand, I'm probably going to win. Sometimes it's a grind, but we just out-value them once the initial draws are dumped and the decks are top decking (or near enough.) Price of Progress hurts though. That's something I try to save to have the counter war over. Since I play relatively heavy counter it keeps those games winnable.
The UU on six of my creatures hasn't been an issue at all so far. I haven't been up against any mana denial to speak of though. I've also taken to playing two Undergrounds and dropped the Bayou. I have a high fetch count so if I'm playing the T1 DRS I'm either sitting behind a Daze or wanting them to think I am. The Underground shows the threat of activation on the DRS that the Tropical doesn't and it ups my U count overall.
Abrupt Decay is great. In my mind it's still "not supposed to be mainboard" but it's consistently good so I'm keeping it in for the foreseeable future. Even against the un-targetable creatures, they're usually running equipment. Taking those out still tilts the race in our favor. It kills everything that Delver plays with; same with BUG and RUG since they seldom run TNN. On paper, it's great against Miracles, but I'll have to defer to someone with experience there for any real detail.
Yes, Rafiq is a toy. I would pull him if I was going anywhere important. I'd take it out for a Sylvan Library most likely. I find my self wanting another threat though sometimes. I'm tempted to take out a Swords since I'm playing two Decays main. Any suggestions there? A Scavenging Ooze back in maybe. I don't have a Goyf.
Wow, I just realized you aren't running Stoneforge Mystic at all...in that case I would definitely find room for:
Add
2x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Karakas
-----------------
-3x Spell Pierce
-2x TNN
-1x Rhox
-1x Rafiq
-1x Daze
-1x Force
I tried to do the whole run 2x Green Sun/ 2x Shaman, but often found that I just either wanted the Shaman or something of substance to grab.
Like you mentioned, TNN needs equiptment to really go over the top...so Stoneforge is his greatest compliment.
You have too many reactive elements in my opinion, I would also not remove the swords...you want your attackers to get through.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Disclaimer: My friend plays a Vintage deck. That means no Titans, but it does mean Mishra's Workshop, Lotus, Moxen, Metalworkers, and Vault/Crypt/Sol Ring w/Voltaic Keys. He still plays the posts with four Candelabra of Tawnos. I don't know how much this'll help here in the Legacy forum, but here's my experience.
Turn 1 Lodestone Golem is devastating. If I can't Force it or eat it once and then Swords it, it's GG. Turn 1 Metalworker is doable as I have a turn to get rid of it. I bring in Stony Silence and Engineered Explosives along with the tutors and the extra Abrupt Decay. EE on 0 wipes the Moxes. I side out the three Spell Pierces and the Jittes. I try to keep the Pridemage for a Steel Hellkite as I can kill the Lodestones with a TNN.
I'm probably 30/70 in this matchup. The games I do win are because he just doesn't get any business or it's an uphill battle after I Swords a big Eldrazi. Resolved (always hardcast ) Emrakul is GG. All is Dust sucks most supremely as well, but at least it can be countered. StP is definitely the all-star in this matchup aside from the sideboard cards. They play relatively few threats. Everything they have can kill you, but they don't play counter. If you can remove what they have and get the deck to top-deck mode (and they don't have an Eye of Ugin) you can overcome with card advantage.
8 dork list, with pridemages, 2 walkers and 2 geist. Sideboard seems a little jumbled, but pretty clear what the pilot was going for. All in all, I really like it and it is nice to see a good Bant result.
4 Wasteland - I guess it's still pretty good even with no backup other than Daze.
1 Karakas - With no way to fetch it.
0 Treasure Cruise - Just not missing them perhaps?
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Mainboard is an uncommon choice.
I'm thinking of tweaking my list and I have a couple of questions. What is the minimum # of spells to run Delver? Is 24 enough? 28?
I don't have a Sword of Fire and Ice. I have the Stoneforges, Batterskull, Jitte, and a Sword of Feast and Famine. Is that worth putting in in the current meta?
Here are my thoughts:
Wastelands: At their core, they trade a colorless source of yours for a colored source of theirs. With daze to apply some pressure on their mana, and dorks to give you more mana, wasteland allows you to create a sustained mana advantage. You rarely completely lock them out like RUG Delver w/ Stifle, but you get ahead on mana. It is then up to you to use this resource advantage.
Karakas: Clearly it is very strong with geist and clique. In a combo rich metagame it is a wonderful card as it is a direct out to reanimator and sneak and show in many situations, as well as allowing you to apply the clique pseudo-lock. I would play a ponder in that spot and put the Karakas in the board, but it is an excellent card for this strategy. It will have other applications verses thalia, teeg, etc, so as long as your opponent is not on wastelands it is normally a very good draw. If lots of wastelands are floating around running an additional fetch or dual might be preferable.
TC: without prob and ponder this cards power is substantially decreased. While not a completely fair comparison (clearly) this deck playing TC verses UR delver playing TC is sort of like playing Ancestral Visions verses an opponent with Ancestral recall. Powerful but not ideal. I was a proponent of 2-3 TC in this type of deck for a while, but now would lean towards ponder first if you want more filtering and card draw.
Elspeth: She is like a pseudo equipment when you have any creature in play should you need to force through damage, and her token generation can lock up the ground and take over stalled or empty boards. Another card I like in the side but again, with all the dorks, casting her is not difficult and she is a very powerful threat. When delver decks have to turn their attention to a PW instead of your life total they are significantly handicapped, and the fact that she starts at effective 5 loyalty + a 1/1 body makes her exceedingly tough for them. Garruk Relentless serves a similar roll in a metagame with fewer bolts and more green and white creatures (dies to bolt but stalls the board or removes a threat).
Spells for Delver: I played BUG delver for a while and was constantly varying the spell count based on # of liliana's, creatures and odd cards like library. 26+ is the sweet spot in my mind.
Sword of Fire and Ice is there due largely to TNN, though the ability to pick off delvers, swiftspears, deathrites, etc is very powerful and is in my mind why it can be maindecked. The card draw ability is also valuable in game 1 combo matches where your other equipment are lacking. SoFaF is good in the latter spot (though generally I would rather draw a card than take their weakest one) but much worse in the earlier ones. Stoneforge plus jitte and batterskull is absolutely worth playing. SoFaF is a sideboard card at best in my mind.
I agree with your assessments, especially concerning 4x Wasteland. With so many dorks its like playing 2 lands a turn; then Wasteland your opponent. I was even thinking of going all in on the mana denial plan and running 2-3x Stifle mainboard.
There have been quite a few Bant list out there, one got 2nd in a daily recently (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-daily-2014-12-26).
Fair decks are back in and that's good for this archetype.
Here's my list:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Tundra
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Ponder
1 Treasure Cruise
Artifacts/Equipment
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Rest in Peace
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Council's Judgment
1 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Containment Priest
1 Grafdigger's Cage
I'm currently wondering about running an Enlightened Tutor package sideboard, maybe:
-Gaddock Teeg
-Spell Pierce
--------------
+Ethersworn Canonist
+Enlightened Tutor
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Deathrite Shaman
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Vendilion Clique
3x True-Name Nemesis
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Rhox War Monk
Spells (23)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Spell Pierce
3x Daze
3x Treasure Cruise
4x Force of Will
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Lands (19)
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Flooded Strand
2x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Karakas
1x Forest
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Rest in Peace
1x Pithing Needle
1x Stony Silence
1x Engineered Plague
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Flusterstorm
The 4x Wasteland/Stifle intrigues me. I'd like to see a list run with those, Judge's Familiar, and Geists since you can Stifle the leaves-play trigger to keep the angel token. Delver might work in that list as well if you push the spell count.
If I get some time, I will post a bant stifle list. The problem there is the tension between stifle and mana dorks. Clearly both have a lot of late game value but both are also at their best on T1. When you know what your opponent is playing this is easy to manage, but in G1 of an unknown matchup this is quite annoying. I have never found a satifactory answer to this, which is why I typically don't play stifle and just use the mana advantage already built into the deck.
If you are planning on running JF, geist and delver, along with stifle, you are either not running an stoneforge (which is a mistake with geist in my mind) or no longer have room for noble, which pretty much means you are straight UW (or you splash Red or black for removal). Delver with JF should likely be in a UB shell to allow thoughtseize along with daze and stifle.
You could tweak this list, http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7313&d=241890&f=LE, to run Stifle and Geist.
I'd do:
-2 Looter il-Kor
-2 Mother of Runes
-3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
-----------------------------
+4 Stifle
+2 Geist of Saint Traft
+1 Vendilion Clique (or Birds of Paradise for the 5th mana dork)
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
What are everyone's thoughts on only running 3 Stoneforge Mystics? With only two equipment, I don't want to run into a dead fetch. Also, I feel that I can find them with just three copies with the 4x Brainstorm and 3x Treasure Cruise.
The other direction I may go is to drop the GSZs(sniff) and the War Monk and add the two Geists and a Shaman. That list would end up pretty close with SM's from post #462.
Since this deck wins on the battlefield I think you have to take advantage of equipment.
I would find room for a Sword of Fire and Ice main and yes definitely add the other Stoneforge.
Basically in a format as Legacy you want to do the most powerful things.
In Bant Aggro decks, Stoneforge and True-Name are the powerplays imho.
So when I'm deciding what hand to keep game 1 (unknown opponent) I usually want either:
1) Dork, Mana, True-name/Geist/Clique: (I can turn 2 drop a big threat, considering I have the 3rd land)
2) Stoneforge, FOW, Blue Card: (I can drop Stoneforge and protect it to drop equipment, i.e Batterskull)
3) Wasteland, Dork, Removal: (I can mana denial my opponent, while having mana advantage; then swords their mana dork or turn 1 threat i.e Delver)
Imagine in scenario 3 if instead of removal you have Stifle.
Could be in your case: Wasteland, Judge's Familiar, Stifle, Noble, Fetchland, Stoneforge, FOW, TNN.
Just my two cents...and yea Green Sun may not fit the bill.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Bant Deathblade
Hmm, quite reactive with the 3c Spell Pierces, Spell Snare and Counterspell mainboard.
Also, I wonder how 2x Dig Through Time synergize with 2x Knight of Reliquary and 4x Shaman.
Daze is too strong not to include and Knight being susceptible to Swords and Abrupt Decay is why I decided to drop him.
I'd almost rather see him take out the Digs and run Green Sun...
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I've also taken out one GSZ and the Rhox War Monk for two Geist of Saint Traft to try them out. I'll post results once I get some games in.
Thoughts on that or does anyone else see potential in anything else that was spoiled?
**Edit**
Well, after saying I'll never take out Spell Pierce, I started thinking about what changes I would make if I did. I came up with the following:
(I think I made a change or two other than these from the last list I posted. I'm making a lot of changes lately )
-3 Spell Pierce
+1 Daze
+1 Misdirection
+1 Deathrite Shaman
I like being somewhat counter-heavy. I see the Daze and the Misdirection as direct swaps for two of the Pierces. I never really liked four Dazes as they are somewhat dead mid-late game, but the extra "Force" I think helps with an extra outlet. The extra DRS just firms up the game-plan. With that many 3-drops, the dorks are important (not telling most of you anything new here.)
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Geist of Saint Traft
3x True-Name Nemesis
1x Dryad Arbor
Spells (20)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
3x Treasure Cruise
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
Artifacts (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Flooded Strand
2x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Karakas
1x Forest
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Rest in Peace
1x Pithing Needle
1x Stony Silence
1x Engineered Plague
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Flusterstorm
Yea, Monastery Mentor is too expensive and competes with our powerful 3 drops.
As for the updates I think you are getting close to other builds out there, I don't see need for the Dryad Arbor without Green Sun, its essentially a come into play tapped land. I'd just take him out for the 3rd Shaman. Also I'd take out a Savannah and put in another Tropical Island; you're pretty blue heavy.
These are just recommendations, have you been able to get in some games, that's pretty much the real indicator of what changes would benefit you and your play style. If you want I can post some videos of games I've played on mtgo against various decks. Hopefully they are still saved in my account.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I don't do MTGO, so I'm hoping these are on YouTube. That said, I'd swap the Savannah out for the Tropical Island in a heartbeat if I had another one. I have it all in paper, so it's the $$$ that's stopping that swap. If I went to play anywhere important, I could probably bum one off of a buddy. My LGS has started doing Legacy FNM, so I can't wait to get by and run this.
For now, I'm keeping the Arbor, even without the GSZ. I've found I'm looking to fetch it in most games in order to get that surprise blocker or attacker next turn. EOT fetch and equip after a board wipe or removal storm surprises most people the first time and they're wary of it on subsequent games, sometimes even keeping a blocker when they probably shouldn't. Other than that, it's easy to tuck with a Brainstorm.
It's sad nothing more exciting came out of the last expansion. It's not even released yet and I'm meh about it...
I've been testing this deck and it's pretty nuts. It seems to win a lot. There's a lot that I don't understand about it. Strangely, the one problem that hasn't occurred is the Delving away my Knight pump lands.
How does this thing get away with 4 dorks, 7 three-drop threats, and a Bojuka Bog MD? What is that Tabernacle in the sideboard for?
I don't really know.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Once you have an active Knight, her utility is generally such that even if she is small, she is good.
This deck is playing more controlling than the 8 dork aggro decks that have been discussed here before, hence no daze, inclusion of counterspell, pierce and snare, etc. As such 4 dorks is fine as a mana boost but you don't need them to stay ahead. 7 three-drops is plenty since stoneforge and deathrite are also substantial threats. This controlling stance also mitigates the conflict between knight and deathrite/delve.
Bog is a bullet to turn off your opponent's ability to delve early, or to respond to graveyard actions. It is also a black source for deathrite. I don't see a Tabernacle in this version, though some do run one as a way to suppress the value of young pyromancer, and to tax aggressive decks.
Also wonder about bringing Elspeth and Jace back to the mainboard.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Pretty standard Bant blade. No splash. Nice work Alex.