BANT refers to the colors: :symw:, :symg:, :symu:. With printing of the Alara block these three colors have been supported through cards such as noble heirarch] and knight of the reliquary. Bant is an Aggro-Control deck based upon these colors. (:symg:) gives you the most powerful and efficient creatures. With the printing of green sun’s zenith, green has now provided BANT consistency with creatures. (:symu:) provides you with consistency and powerful answers to troublesome combo decks. It also gives you the power of another win condition, Jace, the Mindsculptor. (:symw:) gives you the necessary removal and splash to allow the deck to play the most powerful creatures. Playing BANT allows you to have a fighting chance against any deck on the field. It gives you protection with (:symu:), creature removal with (:symw:), and (:symg:) lets you control the board with the best of them. The greatest thing about BANT is sideboard. You can play the most powerful cards in each color in the sideboard to give you the most decent chance to win the tournament in your meta.
Reasons to Play BANT PROS
You have a chance against every deck in the meta.
The sideboard provides you with the best cards in any meta.
You never have a superior matchup in any match that you play. You will have a very, very good chance in every matchup. Every matchup will now be a toss-up, which makes it a very long and tiring day.
You have a very lousy matchup against Maverick, Goblins, and Elves. I would say Elves is nearly unwinnable.
You cannot play all the cards that are good. Meaning, if you want to play Stoneforge Mystic Style with blades, you cannot play green sun zenith style. You can only choose 2 of the following. 1. Force of Will, 2. Stoneforge Mystic Package, 3. Green Sun’s Zenith Package, or 4. Natural Order Package, 5. snapcaster mage package with tempo instant cards.
II. DECK CONSTRUCTION "THE CORE"
This is by General Consensus, the very core of every BANT deck. Almost all decks run a these creatures, either a full set of or based on the numbers listed below. From surveying the other lists, these numbers are the ones that come up most often.
Card Choices Noble Hierarch – Your mana accelerator and color fixing. You need these. The exalted are bonuses.
Tarmogoyf - Because this is a midrange deck, this card isn’t all that useful anymore. Scavenging Ooze replaces tarmogoyf in this slot since there is more utility out of the ooze.
scavenging ooze – Your best friend against graveyard decks. You want to see this guy. The ooze stops deathrite shamans from activation, taking out key dredge cards, and of course taking out the reanimate target.
Rhox War Monk – This card isn’t that useful anymore. The most a 1 of if you use the green sun’s zenith package. it does help against burn decks, but I wouldn't dedicate this card in the 75 when the decklist is already so tight.
knight of the Reliquary – The best 3 drop creature out there. This guy grows with the fetchlands you play. It grows with the wastelands you play. It helps with fixing mana. You can basically tap a forest for mana, cut the forest, and fetch another land for an additional mana, all in one turn. It also helps you find karakas to answer the troublesome legendary creatures. There's also the maze of ith trick where you can untap the knight after combat.
Stoneforge Mystic – The best 2 drop white creature. Allows you to play the aggro style with Batterskull, Blades, and Jitte.
Qasali Pridemage – Your answer to artifacts and enchantments. It’s a great aggro creature on its own. With a turn 1 noble heirarch, and turn 2 qasali pridemage, you have 2 exalted triggers when you attack.
Brainstorm Staple Legacy Cantrip. Ancestral recalls most of the time with a proper fetch.
Force of Will Staple Counterspell, still one of the best cards ever. Make sure you run at least 18 blue cards to take full advantage of Force of Will.
Daze – I’m not sure about this card. Its great when you need it turn 1 to protect your noble
Hierarch, but other than that, it loses value very quickly. Since this is a midrange deck, the dazes you draw later on will only be used as FOW fodder or extra cards to shuffle away after a good brainstorm.
Jace, The Mind Sculptor – The best four drop in the game. You want this guy to control the board. This guy gives you answers against control. It also provides consistency with draws. After a show and tell, you are able to bounce the creature back into the player's hand. The card isn't all too useful against burn and other aggro decks. Its much better for a midrange grinder deck.
Umezawa’s Jitte –Depending on your meta, this card is very useful against Elves and other Aggro decks. It will singlehandedly win you the aggro matchup. If you are having trouble with tribal decks, You should maindeck jitte and another in the sideboard.
Green Sun’s Zenith If you are playing this card, it provides you with the best consistency for this deck to find answers. It allows you to play 1 ofs. You can play a 1 of sylvan safekeeper , a 1 of Rhox War Monk, a 1 of Qasali Pridemage , and a 1 of scavenging ooze .
scryb ranger Flyer. Protection from blue. Blocks delvers like a champ. Blocks Vendilion clique like a champ. However, the most useful part of this card is the ability to untap your creatures and to save your lands from possible wastelands.
III. DECKLISTS
I will not be posting my own decklist to avoid biasness with my card choices.
Here is David Rocher’s Decklist that some have copied card for card with successful results. This is the Stoneforge Mystic Version.
- I dont' understand the 2 force of wills in the maindeck. I think if you want a counter package in the maindeck, you either go all out with a 4 of and then just board it in for games 2 and games 3.
I also don't understand the 2 elspeth. Its a good card, but I dont' think I would want more than 1. This deck doesn't have a bad matchup against miracles, even without any elspeths in the board.
IV. SIDEBOARD
Like the land, Choosing the proper Side Board for your Meta and/or weak match ups is as important as the deck construction itself. Here I will Cover Most but not all card selections as good side board choices. This will cover both the Aggro, and the control Variants.
Card Choices Sword of Body and Mind
Don't use this card. When was milling a person ever a viable strategy. And what does a 2/2 body do for you anyways? There are much better swords out there that provide better effects and protection.
Natural Order
This card lets you cheat in progenitus against fair decks. You have to dedicate quite a few slots for this to work though. You need at least 3 Natural Orders, 1 Progenitus, 1 dryad arbor. With Green Sun Zenith build, it helps you search for more green creatures to sacrifice for Natural Order.
Dueling Grounds
Being that your creatures are Exalted, and theirs not in most cases, this will give the edge to both attacking and defending, allowing one to outrace very potent decks such as Zoo, Gobs, 'folk.
Path to Exile
for the aggro heavy Meta. Having 6-7 StP effects will mean the differences between defeat and failure in most mtach-ups
Krosan Grip
Split second removal needed to face off against CounterTop, or other heavy counter/control decks. Krosan grip may be better at removing batterskull than qasali pridemages since the opponent cannot bounce it back into their hands. When I board in Krosan grip against an equipment deck, I tend to save the Krosan grip until I see batterskull drop. I would not really use krosan grip against jitte since I pack 2 of my own in the sideboard.
Propaganda / Ghostly Prison
Some more options against the Aggro-Heavy Meta, some people prefer this to Dueling Grounds
Silence / Orim's Chant
This may be used to stop people from going off on their turn. Its a mini timewalk, but with so many other cards that are needed, these two effects would probably not find a home.
Meddling Mage
Good as a SB option from the board of the aggro OR control variants. I personally did not find meddling mage all too useful when I used it during SCGLA tournament. I did play some combo decks, but they always had a way around it. I personally think teeg, FOW, and pierces are better for these matchups anyways.
Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist
Teeg has been great against Storm combo and sneak attack. Ethersworn also provides good protection against ANT and Omniscience decks. Teeg is much more useful since it can be searched via green sun's zenith.
Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Great against Merfolk, however, Merfolk has been on a decline. This card may not be all too useful since you can still pack your sideboard with Jittes and Path to exiles as answers for a wide range of other decks.
Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus
Your standard Legacy Graveyard Hate. If played at the proper times, can shut down really explosive decks. These cards give you earlier protection against Graveyard decks going off before your preferred choice scavenging ooze hits play.
Pithing Needle
Colorless/cheap answers to the like of Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Goblin Charbelcher, etc.
Engineered Explosives
Cheap/colorless removal not requiring a color splash. Engineered explosives isn't all too useful against goblins. It does step up to the plate when you use it against elves and merfolk.
Spell Pierce
The standard cheap counter next to force of will. Very useful early on against combo decks.
Qasali Pridemage / Trygon Predator / Harmonic Sliver - Your basic artifact/enchantment removal. Most people use Qasali pridemage since you can search it via green sun's zenith and it also gives you exalted triggers.
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Great against painter decks, but isn't good enough to run 4 of. Tutor package almost needed.
Rafiq of the Many
Legendary, therefore not a good option to run... almost a win-more card. Can be NO'ed.
Submerge
good against Zoo and Maverick. Best to use it in response to a fetch.
Runed Halo
Good against Combo mainly but has other uses. Same problem as Wheel. :symw::symw: cc may be too harsh
Elspeth, Knight Errant
possible alternate win con in the Bant control version. Good card against Miracles and black decks that want to beat you with attrition.
Mother of Runes
great card to use with war monks and goyfs. possible alternate to Cliques/Finks. This card is great against fair decks. However against combo decks, you side it out asap.
geist of saint traft Great card in an aggro matchup. I personally feel that geist should be used only when paired with the equipment stoneforge mystic package. The low life on Geist is the problem when you are facing some goyfs on the other side.
batterskull Part of the standard equipment package with Jitte. This deck is a midrange deck so getting 3 mana to bounce isn't all too difficult to save your batterskull.
negate This card has been good to me against combo decks. It stops all of the combo decks for U1. Just be careful not to tap out.
RUG
The key here is to resolve your Knights of the Reliquary. They do not have the answers to take down the knight game 1. Part of RUG's gameplan is to deny you mana, so having lands in the graveyard won't be a problem. Watch out for Forked Bolt to take out your mana dorks. Your mana dorks are essential to you winning this game.
Game 2, I typically take out Jace and Counters. Spell Pierce is not bad in this matchup because RUG usually doesn't have any lands in play. FOW goes, Jace goes. I have been playing Divert in the sideboard, which has been a house against RUG. Its similar to Pierce, but those Bolts, Chains, Forked Bolts become much more painful against them than just countering it. Watch out for Submerge, it is guaranteed they will bring this in against you to bounce your Knight.
BUG
Learn to play around daze. They will try to daze all of your early spells so watch out for that. Abrupt decays typically target your knight while they bash you in with their Tarmogoyf. The good thing is you have more creatures than they do and you have Scavenging Ooze to eat their lands, their spells, and to shrink their goyfs. Watch out for Hymn to Tourachs. It may break you if you don't hide your key pieces. The bad players will use their decays on your mana dorks, but the better players will save it for your knights. The reason I say this is because your nobles will not be strong enough to beat through their defenses anyways.
Game 2, Bring in your Path to Exiles, your diverts. BUG runs absolutely no basic lands. They will not be searching for anything if you path them. Again, spell pierce is good in this matchup and so are diverts. They do not have the lands to pay for these spells. Bad players will bring in sinkholes against you, but you have so many mana dorks, it doesn't matter if they bring it in. Of course, you can still lose to sinkholes as with any deck. Watch out for dark blast. they will try to remove all your little creatures with it. Jace again wins games. If you have elspeth and Thrun, please do bring these in.
Sneak and Show
SNEAK ATTACK/Show and tell decks in my experience are one of the best matches this deck has. We have Knights and counterspells and the same time. Karakas is a great card to use against Sneak attack players. Jace is also a great card to have to bounce the annoying legendary creatures.
Game 2, they will bring in Red Elemental Blasts to stop your counters. Some will bring in Defense Grid. From my experience, I would take out scavenging ooze, swords to plowshares for surgical extractions and your counter package. I would leave the GSZ in the deck so I can use it to destroy defense grid, if necessary. Krosan Grip is also decent in this matchup.
Miracles
Game 1. Your deck is faster than theirs. Keep dropping creatures, put them on a clock. Eventually, they will try to plow your little creatures one by one. Don't counter it. Let them do it. Save your counters for the more important things like the miracles cards. Even Terminus you do not have to counter. Its more important to counter their win condition, Jace and Entreat the Angels. Just put pressure on them and the game should be ok.
Game 2. Same gameplan, but this time you have teeg. Don't worry if teeg dies, just have them waste more spells on your creatures while you save the counters for their most important spells. This matchup shouldn't really pose a problem since you have so many cards maindeck that fights them. 3 Cliques, 3 jaces. Try to drop your jace sooner than they do so they won't be able to activate it. Also, Karakas vendilion clique combo is your best friend here. Make sure they review the miracles card, then you clique in to remove the one with the trigger.
Dredge
Game 1, As always, they can go off. Try to protect yourself with Force of Will turn 1. Watch out for Dread return and cabal therapy naming your key cards. Brainstorm the hate away. Drop Ooze as soon as possible.
Game 2. I don't run that many graveyard hate cards. I only use 1 crop rotation and 1 bojuka bog. I do have 4 main deck graveyard hate, 2 scavenging ooze and 2 deathrite shamans. Getting Ooze in play is your most important goal. I also run detention sphere so I can get rid of zombies.
Jund
Jund is very similar to BUG. Follow that game plan and you should be able to win. Save your counters for liliana of the veil. Divert is also key when they try to get your cards with thoughtseizes and hymns and bolts.
Esperblade
Esperblade is a grinder. They have better counters and board wipes than you do. You have better creatures. The matchup is about a 50/50 matchup where topdecking a jace could be the end of the match.
Try to save your vendillion cliques so that when they search an equipment, you can try to take it away from their hand.
Post board, they will bring in 1 path to exile, and maybe another board wipe. This would give them 10 removals in the deck, counting snap caster mage. From my experience, I would take out the counters and focus on bringing more threats and artifact removals game 2. Try not to drop all your creatures on the board at once since they will just board wipe you. You can put a decent clock on them with just exalted creatures.
Maverick
This is a hard matchup. They have better creatures than you do, but you have better cards to fight combo than they do. However, maverick prays on control decks with counters, so you should really bring your counters out game 2. I would try to match up with Maverick's creature and removal package. However, because they run mother of runes, it becomes harder for your creatures to get through compared to theirs.
If you are running the Natural Order package, this is a great matchup to bring that package in.
Elves
Save your Swords for back breaking boosters like Priest of Titania, or maybe even Heritage Druid if it is their only way of tapping Nettle Sentinels for mana. Submerge and Engineered Explosives from the SB could give you a fighting chance to slow them down beyond recovery. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
If you have engineered explosives, this is a good place to use it.
Goblins
Removal should target Turn 1 Lackey, Piledriver, and Warchief, in that order. Counterspells are essentially worthless in this matchup, as Cavern of Souls makes it so you can only counter Aether Vial. Counter Aether Vial. Side out as many counters as you can, bringing in Engineered Explosives, Path to Exile, and Krosan Grip. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
I don't like Engineered explosives in this matchup since the goblin players usually have a wide range of mana costs for their creatures.
BANT has access to consistency and utility with the addition of blue as well as permission. MOM is slow, and just clunky compared to the slots that blue fills. Not being blue really lowers the count for FoW to boot. The deck doesn't need as many T1 plays when you have BS>FoW, GSZ, StP, NH and Spell Pierce. Mom isn't as powerful for a mid-range deck with Jace as these other plays and as a mid-range deck, 1/1's don't pull much weight or serve as wincon. All of bants T1 plays are permission or tempo/acceleration plays - MOM is neither of these.
She's probably playable in a list without FoW, but I think Jace + blue package is generally stronger. By the time you put in MOM, you either remove StP, blue cards (and probably lose the ability to play FoW) and you're basically GWu maverick. You lack the ability to run tutor lands with KotR, run fewer basics than GW maverick and don't have the permission to shore up cards that wreck you/combo matches.... Basically MOM doesn't really help the deck with any match ups (BANT traditionally doesn't have any auto-lose match ups) but does weaken the deck to certain strategies.
Bant is ok, but I can agree with Aenesidem. Bant can feel like Merfolk in the sense, sometimes you have control heavy hands or hands with dudes/vial etc. Rarely did you have a grip of a nice mix. And that can be frustrating. I tend to think Bant is better more like Maverick with Jace/Geist/Brainstorm. Is that a better Maverick? Tend to think not, so prolly Bant needs a change in design somehow.
Bant is ok, but I can agree with Aenesidem. Bant can feel like Merfolk in the sense, sometimes you have control heavy hands or hands with dudes/vial etc. Rarely did you have a grip of a nice mix. And that can be frustrating. I tend to think Bant is better more like Maverick with Jace/Geist/Brainstorm. Is that a better Maverick? Tend to think not, so prolly Bant needs a change in design somehow.
Exactly, I think the general GSZ build is too taxing on Jace + FoW and actually tend to think a dedicated control route (V clique, ensaring bridge, elspeth + jace?? more UWg) or more aggro (blouses bant?) are more appropriate rather than the middle of the road. Pick the one that works best for your meta. It should be noted that although blouses bant has a significantly weaker combo match up, g1 of course, running some combination of 4x stifle in the 75 can really shore that up. I don't think I can really emphasize how strong this card can be at stopping cards/strategies that hose a deck like bant.
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Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Pros
1. Much more devastating against discard
2. Can counter/redirect opponent's counterspell
3. Will destroy abrupt decay
4. will destroy decks running sinkhole
5. will destroy decks running creature removal
Cons
1. cannot counter planeswalker
2. Cannot counter Green Sun's zenith
3. Cannot deal with enchantments like counterbalance, humility, moat
4. Cannot counter top, vial, Crucible.
So i was thinking, with this meta being RUG, BUG, JUND, Esper, It may be wise to play divert instead of spell pierce. If anything we have FOW to deal with the most problematic cards.
Even against matchups like Combo, we can deal with their Tendrils and such. The only problem would be dealing with Show and Tell decks where we cannot divert those cards, but can spell pierce.
IMO, in Rocher's Bant-Blade setup, the weakest card is actually the SFM package of 4 SFM + Batterskull.
Spell Pierce is quite relevant against a combo-heavy meta. If you have more aggro (ie; discard and removal over big business spells), you may have a point on divert. Both have the [I ruin your plan unless you pay 2] situation. Divert against planeswalkers or show and tell do very little. That's where pierce shines.
I also find Geist to be totally undervalued. The card is absolutely insane for UW decks right now. Removal won't hit it and it's basically a 3 turn clock against fetchland decks (large % of the field). Geist competes with Kotr and Clique. I'll make the Geist > Clique argument, but again, the meta influences that decision.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I don't like divert at all. I haven't tested it so i'm just guessing but itdoesn't do enough. It's a blowout spell against the discard and removal but it's just bad against anything else. That's not corresponding well with the "flexible cards" argument i made. In the grindy bug/jund meta i want to run spell snare. It hits goyf, confidant, hymn, counterbalance ,stoneforge, rip, energy field and i'm sure there's more i forget. At least that card isn't a dead draw against aggro and is still useful.
The meta is shifting to combo though so i don't know if i'd cut the spell pierces now, if anything, i'd want a 2/2 split of pierce and snare.
@warden, can you elaborate why you think SFM is the weakest card in that list? i'm quite curious, cause i don't necessarily agree with that.
In my esperblade i play 3 geists in the side and it's completely insane. However you should know i disliked geist in bant (at leats in the current shell). To run geist you need either A) SFM+sword. B) Tons of removal. The reason why it's awesome post-board in esperblade is because they have 4 stp+3-4 snapcaster mages.
conclusion: i think a new bant list with snapcaster mages and geists could be a thing. It wouldn't be stoneblade cause it would be a lot more agressive but i can see it use the same tools to make geist succeed.
I don't know if i ever posted the first bant list i ever played with, whch a friend of mine gave me when i picked up bant. It was his own list he developed through a lot of playtesting and experience. It was a GSZ list with 3 snapcaster mages in it. I still wonder why i moved away from that list because of i recall well it's the best bant configuration i've played so far, he piloted it to great success here too (he didn't play big tournaments though since he dislikes big masses of people).
It's only now that i really see the purpose of snapcaster mage. I guess that i moved away because SCM's body on itself isn't worth much but it does so much for the deck that it almost doesn't matter anymore. Snapcaster is the definition of a versatile card and is one of the cards that makes esperblade so strong. It's extra removal when you need to, extra spell pierces when you need them but most importantly he is your extra brainstorms and ponders. Why is this relevant? well because it remedies to the problem i mentioned before concerning unfocused playstyle of bant. Snapcaster mae actually sets up virtual mulligans so you can shuffle away the unneeded cards or duplicate the cards you really need. Even if his body is small, he's the glue that can fix this deck through card advantage and card quality. Additionally he makes force of will more reliable to cast and frees the way for geist.
a remedy to SCM's small body would be SFM and equipments, but since this deck runs so many 3cc spells (i count SCM as a 3cc too.) i feel the GSZ engine to get to 3 mana faster would be the better choice.
So i was thinking along the lines of this:
It's really really raw, i just made it up on the spot and i feel like i forgot something but at first glance it seems like it could have potential. At least against bug, in a grindy meta i would even move the elspeth to the maindeck so we have a lot of strong topdecks and bombs they can hardly answer.
Snapcaster, karakas, maze and exalted are all things that help geist get through to get the opponent down fast or force agggro decks to play more carefully because geist woluld tear them apart. KotR in this case is our lingering souls. Just like lingering souls KotR has great offensive and defensive capacities. It swings for huge damage and blocks every creature in the format, additionally it tutors for karakas and maze to help geist.
Post board the deck can transform in a combo deck where snapcaster+brainstorm digs for combo ad protection while it creates CA to compensate the CD of NO. Basicly your plan against BUG and jund is dropping shrouded bombs on the board only a lilliana can answer. Against combo you switch up/add more permission and a hatebear/extractions and coupled with the snapcaster mages you have a huge wall of counters to keep combo at bay. Geist and snapcaster offer a sollution to a problem i had before. Answering planeswalkers. Geist and SCM are both excellent at killing planeswalkers which should make our control matchup a lot better too.
so basicly:
aggro: hold offense at bay with tons of removal, take over the game with planeswalkers or dig yourself a way for geist.
control: drop shrouded threats (geist progenitus) to evade their removal and put them on a tight clock to find a terminus.
Midrange: evade removal, dig a path for geist, generate CA and cast lots of brainstorms to counteract discard,
combo: generate a clock and brainstorm into counters+snapcasters for a thick protection.
it might work out worse than i think, but it seems like an interesting path to take.
I think if you run snapcaster mage, you really must build around it. (i like the fact you have 3 surgicals, no bojuka bog) You probably can take out the last path to exile for an additional card against control.
Aenesidem, reading your post made me smile. Really wonderful to see someone take the time to craft actual discussion. I like A LOT of what you're talking about.
I don't like divert at all. I haven't tested it so i'm just guessing but itdoesn't do enough. It's a blowout spell against the discard and removal but it's just bad against anything else. That's not corresponding well with the "flexible cards" argument i made. In the grindy bug/jund meta i want to run spell snare. It hits goyf, confidant, hymn, counterbalance ,stoneforge, rip, energy field and i'm sure there's more i forget. At least that card isn't a dead draw against aggro and is still useful.
The meta is shifting to combo though so i don't know if i'd cut the spell pierces now, if anything, i'd want a 2/2 split of pierce and snare.
^^This.
@warden, can you elaborate why you think SFM is the weakest card in that list? i'm quite curious, cause i don't necessarily agree with that.
Okay, this is a lot of theory/fusion of ideas. A while back, it was postulated that SFM decks did not need the card. Some decks like Maverick and Blade converted to 'no SFM' configurations that worked well. Patriot came and went and is now kinda-sorta back again based on this principle. I'm going to sound very weird as I make some oddball analogies.
Legacy aggro-control (let's just agree Bant falls under this classification) wants to be boxing/fighting against the opponent like punch-punch-punch. There's a fluidity in building up spells: t1 things, t2, t3, t4, etc...you keep building presence AND control the board.
What has come to be known as 'typical SFM decks' play out like punch-wind up.....BIG PUNCH. SFM is definitely comparable to some swinging roundhouse punch. If you connect, you're going to be amazing. If the opponent sidesteps or reads you, the whiff (of not landing the blow) can be devastating for the rest of the match. Yes, you can recover ground, but the miss is costly.
Where I'm going with this silly analogy is that SFM is literally a dud. It's a 1/2 white girl for 1W. However, you play the card as a 2-turn spell hoping to land that ultra-powerful equipment-backed attack. In some circumstances, the SFM play is actually 3 turns:
1 - play SFM
2 - ability brings equipment to battlefield
3 - equip and swing
If something were to interrupt the "I have my equipment attached to my attacker" situation, you're in quite a hole. I'm speaking in loose terms because a variety of variables are also at play: discard against you, removal against SFM, attacks against your mana to play the equipment/use SFM, you having countermagic, SFM being countered, other creatures being able to carry the equipment, etc. In short, SFM is undeniably high-risk, high-return. I've won games using SFM decks digging for batterskull T2 and playing it out T3. "You don't have an answer? Okay. 4/4 vig lifelink attacker coming in. Enjoy"
In Rocher's list -- compared to the current meta -- I think SFM is clogging up the progression of the deck. I DO NOT discredit players who have had success with this card/setup. However, at the moment, I am in agreement with the players who made the shift from Patriot SFM decks to Patriot Tempo and Maverick with SFM becoming what it is today. Bant does not want to slow down. As it stands, it doesn't even threaten til turn 3/4. This is why the deck has a very wind-up feel. It's currently designed as not even waking up until the midgame. Now, if you can ensure SFM will be "okay" (ie; played, not killed, etc), its value greatly increases but the flow of the deck is still punch-wind up..still winding up...BIG PUNCH rather than a fluid punch-punch-punch effect.
The 2 things that accelerates the deck: GSZ (arbor) and Hierarch still can't prevent that bottleneck from SFM. You're still going to have to wait an entire turn just to get the toy on the battlefield (unless it's late game where you have very powerful things to help you anyway). SFM will not come out earlier than T2. This is different from the amazing 3 and 4 drops this deck plays, which CAN come out earlier.
T1: Hierarch --> T2: KotR --> T3: KotR [active] + Jace [active]....is an insane progression. This is very punch-punch-punch. Things are coming out and you can be threatening right away.
Compare that to
T1: Hierarch ---> T2: SFM ---> T3: still not attacking (ability brings in equip) ---> T4: drop no threats because we now want to equip SFM
or
T1: Hierarch ---> T2: SFM ---> T3: still not attacking (ability brings in equip) ---> T4: the equipment lays on the field as we bring in another creature
****
Personally, I think Bant can swap out SFM and still run 2x jitte if it wanted equipment. It can also run creatures that do stuff/threaten. Even Goyf or Ooze in her slot opens you up to some more fluid punch-punch-punch progression
It's only now that i really see the purpose of snapcaster mage. I guess that i moved away because SCM's body on itself isn't worth much but it does so much for the deck that it almost doesn't matter anymore. Snapcaster is the definition of a versatile card and is one of the cards that makes esperblade so strong. It's extra removal when you need to, extra spell pierces when you need them but most importantly he is your extra brainstorms and ponders. Why is this relevant? well because it remedies to the problem i mentioned before concerning unfocused playstyle of bant. Snapcaster mae actually sets up virtual mulligans so you can shuffle away the unneeded cards or duplicate the cards you really need. Even if his body is small, he's the glue that can fix this deck through card advantage and card quality. Additionally he makes force of will more reliable to cast and frees the way for geist.
Yup. Look at UR delver and Patriot tempo. Look at RUG (midrange). You need to reconfigure things, but there's A LOT of merit behind snapcaster being a supplement card. The issue, which you also mention, is that he's definitely a "build around me" card. Nevertheless, people magically forget SFM warps lists as well. At least extra removal or filter do stuff. Same goes for a naked SCM who is at worst a 2/1 flash blocker who pitches to force. And yes, SCM is a 3cc in my eyes as well.
If I built around SCM in a bant shell, I would consider:
4 Hierarch
4 Goyf
3 SCM
5 KotR/Geist/Clique
3 Jace
/19 permanents
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
wow, first off the last page of posts have been some of the best, well thought out posts on these forums ever. Great to see it on the bant thread
Maybe i'm over simplifying things but it seems warden is building a more control focused list where as aene is going a more aggro route with landing a geist and riding removal and SCM to make sure he gets there.
I have had success with SFM in the past, but warden you made a great point and explained it well ...kudos... I play her and *hope* that she makes it untouched for a turn or 2, or my equipment doesnt get seized away.
I'm not exactly ready to give up my cliques yet as they are amazing in my show and tell infested meta.
Is bant going to see a resurgence tarmogoyf? Our exalted means our goyfs always win the war.
This spell line up looks like the nutter butters with SCM. I think peirce and snare split should handle most anything.
I'm loving the input guys please keep it up, and Aenesidem, I'm glad even tho your playing esper your still posting here. I value your input greatly.:D
Ideally, as I see Bant (more like Maverick), it would be better as a creature oriented deck. Some Maverich staples should carry over like Mother of Runes/Noble Hierarch. I think another reason for blue (and probably the best reason) is for Geist. He's just tough and hard to deal with. I read alot of talk about using counters to stop Planeswalkers. Dont. Use Geist Angels and Mom forcing damage through, or even flying Vendilion Cliques to eat Planeswalkers. Your best value cards are creatures. Not counters. Not Brainstorm. Not Jace. And, this is where the heart of the problem for Bant comes from I think. Its been built as a poor hyrbridized deck, and lost focus on creatures and the emphasis was put on OMG add Jace, Force, Brainstorm. I think that was a failure in deck design. I would say this is probably why Stoneforge Mystic versions failed, because they didn't have Mother of Runes and not enough bodies to use the equipment on if Sfmystic got killed. Sfmystic is only a liability if you dont have bodies to use the equipment on. Of course, the two for one in response to equip cost still exists, but if your deck was more creature heavy, this would be mitigated, because you wouldnt be holding a dud with your dead squire. Youd have bodies to carry your equipments. Better yet, you might have an active Mom to protect Sfmystic or the body said equipment is being attached to.
So, this begs the question. Whats blue for exactly? Use blue for some versatility, but not overboard. Im all about using Jace, as he is awesome utility for Bant. He digs for threats, can act as a win condition, control outs the adversary might get, unsummon blockers/attackers. Plus, in Bant as a creature heavier versoin, theyre would be more protection for Jace, making him harder to kill and stick, which is awesome for you. Geist of Saint Traft, is the other best reason to go blue. I know you guys played with this card or against this card. Now add Sfmystic equips and Mother of Runes to the picture with Geist and imagine the scene. Yeah, exactly. The last reason for blue, and the hardest is counterspells. Yeah, they are amazing. I dont know if they belong, but if they do its only to serve as a way to defend against what Maverick cant, the stack. And even then, thats basically combo to an extent some control. You can attack control with things like equipment, manlands and Planeswalkers to evade Terminus/Supreme Verdict. You cannot however beat combo without some way of impeding the stack, either with hatebears (the maverick way) or countermagic (the blue way) or a little of both. Maybe a little of both. Maybe Meddling mages in the sideboard with Force.
Either way, its kinda like Karate Kid. Either do Bant as creature oriented, yes. Or do Bant as control oriented and less creature emphasis, yes. Do a little of both, get SQUISHED. Understand?
wow, first off the last page of posts have been some of the best, well thought out posts on these forums ever. Great to see it on the bant thread
Thanks, glad I can sound intelligent lol
I have had success with SFM in the past, but warden you made a great point and explained it well ...kudos... I play her and *hope* that she makes it untouched for a turn or 2, or my equipment doesnt get seized away.
Same. But it's literally what happens to decks. You tend to do nothing and hope to god the 2 or 3 turns you've invested pan out.
Is bant going to see a resurgence tarmogoyf? Our exalted means our goyfs always win the war.
I'd play goyf. I see no reason not to. And it's insane in the shell I provided. You have a mix of creatures, spells, (assumed) fetch, and jace.
This spell line up looks like the nutter butters with SCM.
Reading that made me smile....and also want nutter butter snacks
Ideally, as I see Bant (more like Maverick), it would be better as a creature oriented deck. Some Maverich staples should carry over like Mother of Runes/Noble Hierarch. I think another reason for blue (and probably the best reason) is for Geist. He's just tough and hard to deal with. I read alot of talk about using counters to stop Planeswalkers. Dont. Use Geist Angels and Mom forcing damage through, or even flying Vendilion Cliques to eat Planeswalkers. Your best value cards are creatures. Not counters. Not Brainstorm. Not Jace. And, this is where the heart of the problem for Bant comes from I think. Its been built as a poor hyrbridized deck, and lost focus on creatures and the emphasis was put on OMG add Jace, Force, Brainstorm. I think that was a failure in deck design. I would say this is probably why Stoneforge Mystic versions failed, because they didn't have Mother of Runes and not enough bodies to use the equipment on if Sfmystic got killed. Sfmystic is only a liability if you dont have bodies to use the equipment on. Of course, the two for one in response to equip cost still exists, but if your deck was more creature heavy, this would be mitigated, because you wouldnt be holding a dud with your dead squire. Youd have bodies to carry your equipments. Better yet, you might have an active Mom to protect Sfmystic or the body said equipment is being attached to.
So, this begs the question. Whats blue for exactly? Use blue for some versatility, but not overboard. Im all about using Jace, as he is awesome utility for Bant. He digs for threats, can act as a win condition, control outs the adversary might get, unsummon blockers/attackers. Plus, in Bant as a creature heavier versoin, theyre would be more protection for Jace, making him harder to kill and stick, which is awesome for you. Geist of Saint Traft, is the other best reason to go blue. I know you guys played with this card or against this card. Now add Sfmystic equips and Mother of Runes to the picture with Geist and imagine the scene. Yeah, exactly. The last reason for blue, and the hardest is counterspells. Yeah, they are amazing. I dont know if they belong, but if they do its only to serve as a way to defend against what Maverick cant, the stack. And even then, thats basically combo to an extent some control. You can attack control with things like equipment, manlands and Planeswalkers to evade Terminus/Supreme Verdict. You cannot however beat combo without some way of impeding the stack, either with hatebears (the maverick way) or countermagic (the blue way) or a little of both. Maybe a little of both. Maybe Meddling mages in the sideboard with Force.
Either way, its kinda like Karate Kid. Either do Bant as creature oriented, yes. Or do Bant as control oriented and less creature emphasis, yes. Do a little of both, get SQUISHED. Understand?
Raze, some really good discussion here as well. I'm currently playing Maverick because I think their gameplan overall is better than Bant. I also lack goyfs, so that's a nice $400 hurdle standing in the way between what I wrote and actually playing it out at an event.
I see 3 decks in a continuum. This also reflects my shift in decks I've played over the past year:
Stoneforge UWx ---> Bant ---> Maverick
Stoneforge is reliant on blue. This ties into a lot of what you said. However, I seriously craved KotR. She's unbelievably good in spite of abrupt decay and DRS being things. You play through it. I'll apply lots of pressure with my (often) 8/8 land-tutoring mistress.
I felt UWx Stoneforge lacked oomph. Lingering Souls and Thoughtseizes could easily become KotR and Noble Hierarch. I really wanted some beatdown. However, the deck lost focus in favor of a hodge podge of 'good U/G/W stuff'. Goodstuff decks rarely win.
Somewhere in playing Bant I realized the importance of a true gameplan. I mentioned this in the previous thread and Raze just echoed the sentiments in the quote: decide what the hell you want to do FIRST, then build. In essence, good decks have specific fatal flaws because they are so dedicated on a set plan. UWx was never 'amazing' against anything. It was trying to be a catch-all and actually did a decent job at keeping you in every game. However, I wanted change. Esper didn't rub me the right way. Bant too needed focus. For me, I found an appreciation for aggro and disruption.
I'm currently on Maverick because I like the emphasis on consistency and aggressive disruption.
In my experiences, I find it too difficult to manage the blue/green balance. I made my case on dropping SFM, which lowers my dependence on white to Knight/Geist/Mirran/Swords and possibly Elspeth. I keep trying to tie things back together but the end result is a pile. Given the current cache of cards I own, I can't piece together a respectable 75. Blue means I want counters. Period. Without countermagic, you can --- as I did --- just run an even more aggressive deck like Maverick. Brainstorm is nice, but it's not the end-all. Sylvan Library and a solid GSZ plan make up for brainstorm.
The real 'shortcoming' of Maverick is its weakness to the stack. I can't really stop spells from coming in once cast. I have no force/daze/pierce/snare. But IMO that's okay. That's my fatal flaw I'm willing to live with! At the moment I think bant is way better WITH dedicated counters. I've tested and tried different counter configurations. You need something in the deck to stop opponent's spells. Otherwise go pure GW because it's the better aggro deck. I stick by the above post on how I'd apporach Bant.
@Mother of Runes:
This was the first card I found I wanted more and more. It got me going into Maverick. Next was GSZ. From there I just dropped the filler cards and played more creatures.
Private Mod Note
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
a remedy to SCM's small body would be SFM and equipments, but since this deck runs so many 3cc spells (i count SCM as a 3cc too.) i feel the GSZ engine to get to 3 mana faster would be the better choice.
This is the problem with Snapcaster Mage. On the source, the Bant brainstorming mantra used to be, you get to pick 2 out of: SFM, SCM, Force, and GSZ. The breaking point for running SCM/Force/GSZ is in the 3-drops. Moreover, SCM is really outclassed as a "value" creature compared to the cascade decks. His extra spell is obviously more consistent, but his body is smaller and he's worse at his best.
I've run the GSZ aggro control lists quite a lot, and fairly successfully. I try to cap myself at 7 3-drops; you have 9 (not counting GSZ->Pridemage/Ooze). Geist+SCM gives you a small army of guys who can't beat a Mongoose. Exalted helps, but lacking the 4th Knight, SFM, and Clique means you're built to loose ground stalls.
I like GSZ builds a lot, but I, too, think Geist might be really good right now, and prefer the equipment/exalted plan against the fair decks. Equipment happens to also be good with Clique, who is also sometimes able to beat Abrupt Decay, but this crowds out the 3-slot. I might play something like this:
22 Land
4 Hiearrch
4 SFM
2 Pridemage
3 Knight
3 Geist
1 Clique (+1-2 in board)
3 JTMS
1 Sword of Feast/Famine (+Jitte in board)
1 Batterskull
Okay, so a few friends of mine play legacy with me, but casually. We don't have "Tournament Viable" decks, but we like to go out of our way and get stuff to maximize our decks power within our budgets. With that being said a friend of mine wanted to build a Bant deck with Thragtusk and Restoration Angel, so I built him this.
Thanks for the reply guys, especially Warden. On the counterspell issue, its fine for Bant to Maverick with countermagic. Its just it should be the minmum, because Bant is a better deck as a creature oriented deck first and foremost, before anything else. The best disruption you will get is from cards like Knight of the Reliquary, Mother of Runes, Scavenging Ooze and Vendilion Clique in Bant as well as Meddling Mages for the sideboard. I also advoctae using Jace, for my aforementioned reasons. Adding other things like Elspeth could also work as another way to deal with board wipes from Miracles and and additional ways to beat opposing Planeswalkers. If you want filtering effects, Jace and Sylvan Library work unbelievably well. The hardest part is still countermagic. If anything, I'd even be a fan of Mana Leak (I know, here come the flames). One, Mana Leak is easy on the curve, and second, it will do mostly what you want a counterspell to do without the card disadvantage of Force. If you think in a sideboard plan, Meddling Mage is amazing (especially considering Mother of Runes for protection) as an additional disruption creature and can swing a Jitte/etc, be jumped by Elspeth. If you consider a disruption package of some countermagic mainboard, as well as Vendilion Cliques, and Meddling Mage post sideboard games, you have a working plan against combo/control. Blue also offers some interesting options against Sneak/Show like Curfew/Phyrexian Metamorph/Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation. I think Bant can work very well, but it has to have a defining strategy, which I think should still revolve around creatures.
If you have any suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it. This is from my testing, so it my be skewed for you
KEYS TO VICTORY
RUG
The key here is to resolve your Knights of the Reliquary. They do not have the answers to take down the knight game 1. Part of RUG's gameplan is to deny you mana, so having lands in the graveyard won't be a problem. Watch out for Forked Bolt to take out your mana dorks. Your mana dorks are essential to you winning this game.
Game 2, I typically take out Jace and Counters. Spell Pierce is not bad in this matchup because RUG usually doesn't have any lands in play. FOW goes, Jace goes. I have been playing Divert in the sideboard, which has been a house against RUG. Its similar to Pierce, but those Bolts, Chains, Forked Bolts become much more painful against them than just countering it. Watch out for Submerge, it is guaranteed they will bring this in against you to bounce your Knight.
BUG
Learn to play around daze. They will try to daze all of your early spells so watch out for that. Abrupt decays typically target your knight while they bash you in with their Tarmogoyf. The good thing is you have more creatures than they do and you have Scavenging Ooze to eat their lands, their spells, and to shrink their goyfs. Watch out for Hymn to Tourachs. It may break you if you don't hide your key pieces. The bad players will use their decays on your mana dorks, but the better players will save it for your knights. The reason I say this is because your nobles will not be strong enough to beat through their defenses anyways.
Game 2, Bring in your Path to Exiles, your diverts. BUG runs absolutely no basic lands. They will not be searching for anything if you path them. Again, spell pierce is good in this matchup and so are diverts. They do not have the lands to pay for these spells. Bad players will bring in sinkholes against you, but you have so many mana dorks, it doesn't matter if they bring it in. Of course, you can still lose to sinkholes as with any deck. Watch out for dark blast. they will try to remove all your little creatures with it. Jace again wins games. If you have elspeth and Thrun, please do bring these in.
Sneak and Show
One of the harder matchups. Turn 1 Ancient Tomb and Turn 2 island could mean disaster. They have counters to back up these two lines of plays. You do have counters and vendillion cliques so not all is lost. You also have knights of the reliquary to fetch your karakas.
Game 2, Bring in counters, bring in your oblivion rings and detention sphere. Bring in flusterstorm. They will bring in REBs and Pyroblasts. Hope they don't go off. Its still not an easy matchup. Thats why this deck has been in the decks to beat for so long.
- Counter Argument
SNEAK ATTACK/Show and tell decks in my experience are one of the best matches this deck have. We have Knights and counterspells and the same time. If you add some Surgicals game 2 and 3 the match become really hard for them.
Miracles
Game 1. Your deck is faster than theirs. Keep dropping creatures, put them on a clock. Eventually, they will try to plow your little creatures one by one. Don't counter it. Let them do it. Save your counters for the more important things like the miracles cards. Even Terminus you do not have to counter. Its more important to counter their win condition, Jace and Entreat the Angels. Just put pressure on them and the game should be ok.
Game 2. Same gameplan, but this time you have teeg. Don't worry if teeg dies, just have them waste more spells on your creatures while you save the counters for their most important spells. This matchup shouldn't really pose a problem since you have so many cards maindeck that fights them. 3 Cliques, 3 jaces. Try to drop your jace sooner than they do so they won't be able to activate it. Also, Karakas vendilion clique combo is your best friend here. Make sure they review the miracles card, then you clique in to remove the one with the trigger.
Dredge
Game 1, As always, they can go off. Try to protect yourself with Force of Will turn 1. Watch out for Dread return and cabal therapy naming your key cards. Brainstorm the hate away. Drop Ooze as soon as possible.
Game 2. I don't run that many graveyard hate cards. I only use 1 crop rotation and 1 bojuka bog. I do have 4 main deck graveyard hate, 2 scavenging ooze and 2 deathrite shamans. Getting Ooze in play is your most important goal. I also run detention sphere so I can get rid of zombies.
Jund
Jund is very similar to BUG. Follow that game plan and you should be able to win. Save your counters for liliana of the veil. Divert is also key when they try to get your cards with thoughtseizes and hymns and bolts.
Esperblade
Someone Please give me some feedback on this. I don't have experience playing them all too much.
Maverick
If you are not running the Natural Order package from the side, give up.
Elves
Save your Swords for back breaking boosters like Priest of Titania, or maybe even Heritage Druid if it is their only way of tapping Nettle Sentinels for mana. Submerge and Engineered Explosives from the SB could give you a fighting chance to slow them down beyond recovery. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
Goblins
Removal should target Turn 1 Lackey, Piledriver, and Warchief, in that order. Counterspells are essentially worthless in this matchup, as Cavern of Souls makes it so you can only counter Aether Vial. Counter Aether Vial. Side out as many counters as you can, bringing in Engineered Explosives, Path to Exile, and Krosan Grip. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
Save your Swords for back breaking boosters like Priest of Titania, or maybe even Heritage Druid if it is their only way of tapping Nettle Sentinels for mana. Submerge and Engineered Explosives from the SB could give you a fighting chance to slow them down beyond recovery. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
Goblins
Removal should target Turn 1 Lackey, Piledriver, and Warchief, in that order. Counterspells are essentially worthless in this matchup, as Cavern of Souls makes it so you can only counter Aether Vial. Counter Aether Vial. Side out as many counters as you can, bringing in Engineered Explosives, Path to Exile, and Krosan Grip. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
I. INTRODUCTION
BANT refers to the colors: :symw:, :symg:, :symu:. With printing of the Alara block these three colors have been supported through cards such as noble heirarch] and knight of the reliquary. Bant is an Aggro-Control deck based upon these colors. (:symg:) gives you the most powerful and efficient creatures. With the printing of green sun’s zenith, green has now provided BANT consistency with creatures. (:symu:) provides you with consistency and powerful answers to troublesome combo decks. It also gives you the power of another win condition, Jace, the Mindsculptor. (:symw:) gives you the necessary removal and splash to allow the deck to play the most powerful creatures. Playing BANT allows you to have a fighting chance against any deck on the field. It gives you protection with (:symu:), creature removal with (:symw:), and (:symg:) lets you control the board with the best of them. The greatest thing about BANT is sideboard. You can play the most powerful cards in each color in the sideboard to give you the most decent chance to win the tournament in your meta.
Reasons to Play BANT
PROS
II. DECK CONSTRUCTION
"THE CORE"
This is by General Consensus, the very core of every BANT deck. Almost all decks run a these creatures, either a full set of or based on the numbers listed below. From surveying the other lists, these numbers are the ones that come up most often.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knights of the Reliquary
3 Vendillion Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, The Mind sculptor
The reason for the card choices.
Card Choices
Noble Hierarch – Your mana accelerator and color fixing. You need these. The exalted are bonuses.
Tarmogoyf - Because this is a midrange deck, this card isn’t all that useful anymore. Scavenging Ooze replaces tarmogoyf in this slot since there is more utility out of the ooze.
scavenging ooze – Your best friend against graveyard decks. You want to see this guy. The ooze stops deathrite shamans from activation, taking out key dredge cards, and of course taking out the reanimate target.
Rhox War Monk – This card isn’t that useful anymore. The most a 1 of if you use the green sun’s zenith package. it does help against burn decks, but I wouldn't dedicate this card in the 75 when the decklist is already so tight.
knight of the Reliquary – The best 3 drop creature out there. This guy grows with the fetchlands you play. It grows with the wastelands you play. It helps with fixing mana. You can basically tap a forest for mana, cut the forest, and fetch another land for an additional mana, all in one turn. It also helps you find karakas to answer the troublesome legendary creatures. There's also the maze of ith trick where you can untap the knight after combat.
Stoneforge Mystic – The best 2 drop white creature. Allows you to play the aggro style with Batterskull, Blades, and Jitte.
Qasali Pridemage – Your answer to artifacts and enchantments. It’s a great aggro creature on its own. With a turn 1 noble heirarch, and turn 2 qasali pridemage, you have 2 exalted triggers when you attack.
Swords to Plowshares - Best 1-drop Removal in Legacy
Brainstorm Staple Legacy Cantrip. Ancestral recalls most of the time with a proper fetch.
Force of Will Staple Counterspell, still one of the best cards ever. Make sure you run at least 18 blue cards to take full advantage of Force of Will.
Daze – I’m not sure about this card. Its great when you need it turn 1 to protect your noble
Hierarch, but other than that, it loses value very quickly. Since this is a midrange deck, the dazes you draw later on will only be used as FOW fodder or extra cards to shuffle away after a good brainstorm.
Jace, The Mind Sculptor – The best four drop in the game. You want this guy to control the board. This guy gives you answers against control. It also provides consistency with draws. After a show and tell, you are able to bounce the creature back into the player's hand. The card isn't all too useful against burn and other aggro decks. Its much better for a midrange grinder deck.
Umezawa’s Jitte –Depending on your meta, this card is very useful against Elves and other Aggro decks. It will singlehandedly win you the aggro matchup. If you are having trouble with tribal decks, You should maindeck jitte and another in the sideboard.
Green Sun’s Zenith If you are playing this card, it provides you with the best consistency for this deck to find answers. It allows you to play 1 ofs. You can play a 1 of sylvan safekeeper , a 1 of Rhox War Monk, a 1 of Qasali Pridemage , and a 1 of scavenging ooze .
scryb ranger Flyer. Protection from blue. Blocks delvers like a champ. Blocks Vendilion clique like a champ. However, the most useful part of this card is the ability to untap your creatures and to save your lands from possible wastelands.
III. DECKLISTS
I will not be posting my own decklist to avoid biasness with my card choices.
Here is David Rocher’s Decklist that some have copied card for card with successful results. This is the Stoneforge Mystic Version.
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Instants [15]
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
2 Path to Exile
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Meddling Mage
2 Tormod's Crypt
The Bryan Hawley Decklist that topped 15 out of 700 at GP Denver.
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
Instants [11]
1 Spell Pierce
2 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [22]
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Newest decklist from Bryan Hawley who got 3rd place in SCG settle.
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
Instants [12]
2 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [22]
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Krosan Grip
2 Negate
2 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
- I dont' understand the 2 force of wills in the maindeck. I think if you want a counter package in the maindeck, you either go all out with a 4 of and then just board it in for games 2 and games 3.
I also don't understand the 2 elspeth. Its a good card, but I dont' think I would want more than 1. This deck doesn't have a bad matchup against miracles, even without any elspeths in the board.
IV. SIDEBOARD
Like the land, Choosing the proper Side Board for your Meta and/or weak match ups is as important as the deck construction itself. Here I will Cover Most but not all card selections as good side board choices. This will cover both the Aggro, and the control Variants.
Card Choices
Sword of Body and Mind
Don't use this card. When was milling a person ever a viable strategy. And what does a 2/2 body do for you anyways? There are much better swords out there that provide better effects and protection.
Natural Order
This card lets you cheat in progenitus against fair decks. You have to dedicate quite a few slots for this to work though. You need at least 3 Natural Orders, 1 Progenitus, 1 dryad arbor. With Green Sun Zenith build, it helps you search for more green creatures to sacrifice for Natural Order.
Dueling Grounds
Being that your creatures are Exalted, and theirs not in most cases, this will give the edge to both attacking and defending, allowing one to outrace very potent decks such as Zoo, Gobs, 'folk.
Path to Exile
for the aggro heavy Meta. Having 6-7 StP effects will mean the differences between defeat and failure in most mtach-ups
Krosan Grip
Split second removal needed to face off against CounterTop, or other heavy counter/control decks. Krosan grip may be better at removing batterskull than qasali pridemages since the opponent cannot bounce it back into their hands. When I board in Krosan grip against an equipment deck, I tend to save the Krosan grip until I see batterskull drop. I would not really use krosan grip against jitte since I pack 2 of my own in the sideboard.
Propaganda / Ghostly Prison
Some more options against the Aggro-Heavy Meta, some people prefer this to Dueling Grounds
Silence / Orim's Chant
This may be used to stop people from going off on their turn. Its a mini timewalk, but with so many other cards that are needed, these two effects would probably not find a home.
Meddling Mage
Good as a SB option from the board of the aggro OR control variants. I personally did not find meddling mage all too useful when I used it during SCGLA tournament. I did play some combo decks, but they always had a way around it. I personally think teeg, FOW, and pierces are better for these matchups anyways.
Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist
Teeg has been great against Storm combo and sneak attack. Ethersworn also provides good protection against ANT and Omniscience decks. Teeg is much more useful since it can be searched via green sun's zenith.
Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Great against Merfolk, however, Merfolk has been on a decline. This card may not be all too useful since you can still pack your sideboard with Jittes and Path to exiles as answers for a wide range of other decks.
Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus
Your standard Legacy Graveyard Hate. If played at the proper times, can shut down really explosive decks. These cards give you earlier protection against Graveyard decks going off before your preferred choice scavenging ooze hits play.
Pithing Needle
Colorless/cheap answers to the like of Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Goblin Charbelcher, etc.
Engineered Explosives
Cheap/colorless removal not requiring a color splash. Engineered explosives isn't all too useful against goblins. It does step up to the plate when you use it against elves and merfolk.
Spell Pierce
The standard cheap counter next to force of will. Very useful early on against combo decks.
Qasali Pridemage / Trygon Predator / Harmonic Sliver - Your basic artifact/enchantment removal. Most people use Qasali pridemage since you can search it via green sun's zenith and it also gives you exalted triggers.
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Great against painter decks, but isn't good enough to run 4 of. Tutor package almost needed.
Rafiq of the Many
Legendary, therefore not a good option to run... almost a win-more card. Can be NO'ed.
Submerge
good against Zoo and Maverick. Best to use it in response to a fetch.
Runed Halo
Good against Combo mainly but has other uses. Same problem as Wheel. :symw::symw: cc may be too harsh
Elspeth, Knight Errant
possible alternate win con in the Bant control version. Good card against Miracles and black decks that want to beat you with attrition.
Mother of Runes
great card to use with war monks and goyfs. possible alternate to Cliques/Finks. This card is great against fair decks. However against combo decks, you side it out asap.
geist of saint traft Great card in an aggro matchup. I personally feel that geist should be used only when paired with the equipment stoneforge mystic package. The low life on Geist is the problem when you are facing some goyfs on the other side.
batterskull Part of the standard equipment package with Jitte. This deck is a midrange deck so getting 3 mana to bounce isn't all too difficult to save your batterskull.
negate This card has been good to me against combo decks. It stops all of the combo decks for U1. Just be careful not to tap out.
KEYS TO VICTORY
RUG
The key here is to resolve your Knights of the Reliquary. They do not have the answers to take down the knight game 1. Part of RUG's gameplan is to deny you mana, so having lands in the graveyard won't be a problem. Watch out for Forked Bolt to take out your mana dorks. Your mana dorks are essential to you winning this game.
Game 2, I typically take out Jace and Counters. Spell Pierce is not bad in this matchup because RUG usually doesn't have any lands in play. FOW goes, Jace goes. I have been playing Divert in the sideboard, which has been a house against RUG. Its similar to Pierce, but those Bolts, Chains, Forked Bolts become much more painful against them than just countering it. Watch out for Submerge, it is guaranteed they will bring this in against you to bounce your Knight.
BUG
Learn to play around daze. They will try to daze all of your early spells so watch out for that. Abrupt decays typically target your knight while they bash you in with their Tarmogoyf. The good thing is you have more creatures than they do and you have Scavenging Ooze to eat their lands, their spells, and to shrink their goyfs. Watch out for Hymn to Tourachs. It may break you if you don't hide your key pieces. The bad players will use their decays on your mana dorks, but the better players will save it for your knights. The reason I say this is because your nobles will not be strong enough to beat through their defenses anyways.
Game 2, Bring in your Path to Exiles, your diverts. BUG runs absolutely no basic lands. They will not be searching for anything if you path them. Again, spell pierce is good in this matchup and so are diverts. They do not have the lands to pay for these spells. Bad players will bring in sinkholes against you, but you have so many mana dorks, it doesn't matter if they bring it in. Of course, you can still lose to sinkholes as with any deck. Watch out for dark blast. they will try to remove all your little creatures with it. Jace again wins games. If you have elspeth and Thrun, please do bring these in.
Sneak and Show
SNEAK ATTACK/Show and tell decks in my experience are one of the best matches this deck has. We have Knights and counterspells and the same time. Karakas is a great card to use against Sneak attack players. Jace is also a great card to have to bounce the annoying legendary creatures.
Game 2, they will bring in Red Elemental Blasts to stop your counters. Some will bring in Defense Grid. From my experience, I would take out scavenging ooze, swords to plowshares for surgical extractions and your counter package. I would leave the GSZ in the deck so I can use it to destroy defense grid, if necessary. Krosan Grip is also decent in this matchup.
Miracles
Game 1. Your deck is faster than theirs. Keep dropping creatures, put them on a clock. Eventually, they will try to plow your little creatures one by one. Don't counter it. Let them do it. Save your counters for the more important things like the miracles cards. Even Terminus you do not have to counter. Its more important to counter their win condition, Jace and Entreat the Angels. Just put pressure on them and the game should be ok.
Game 2. Same gameplan, but this time you have teeg. Don't worry if teeg dies, just have them waste more spells on your creatures while you save the counters for their most important spells. This matchup shouldn't really pose a problem since you have so many cards maindeck that fights them. 3 Cliques, 3 jaces. Try to drop your jace sooner than they do so they won't be able to activate it. Also, Karakas vendilion clique combo is your best friend here. Make sure they review the miracles card, then you clique in to remove the one with the trigger.
Dredge
Game 1, As always, they can go off. Try to protect yourself with Force of Will turn 1. Watch out for Dread return and cabal therapy naming your key cards. Brainstorm the hate away. Drop Ooze as soon as possible.
Game 2. I don't run that many graveyard hate cards. I only use 1 crop rotation and 1 bojuka bog. I do have 4 main deck graveyard hate, 2 scavenging ooze and 2 deathrite shamans. Getting Ooze in play is your most important goal. I also run detention sphere so I can get rid of zombies.
Jund
Jund is very similar to BUG. Follow that game plan and you should be able to win. Save your counters for liliana of the veil. Divert is also key when they try to get your cards with thoughtseizes and hymns and bolts.
Esperblade
Esperblade is a grinder. They have better counters and board wipes than you do. You have better creatures. The matchup is about a 50/50 matchup where topdecking a jace could be the end of the match.
Try to save your vendillion cliques so that when they search an equipment, you can try to take it away from their hand.
Post board, they will bring in 1 path to exile, and maybe another board wipe. This would give them 10 removals in the deck, counting snap caster mage. From my experience, I would take out the counters and focus on bringing more threats and artifact removals game 2. Try not to drop all your creatures on the board at once since they will just board wipe you. You can put a decent clock on them with just exalted creatures.
Maverick
This is a hard matchup. They have better creatures than you do, but you have better cards to fight combo than they do. However, maverick prays on control decks with counters, so you should really bring your counters out game 2. I would try to match up with Maverick's creature and removal package. However, because they run mother of runes, it becomes harder for your creatures to get through compared to theirs.
If you are running the Natural Order package, this is a great matchup to bring that package in.
Elves
Save your Swords for back breaking boosters like Priest of Titania, or maybe even Heritage Druid if it is their only way of tapping Nettle Sentinels for mana. Submerge and Engineered Explosives from the SB could give you a fighting chance to slow them down beyond recovery. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
If you have engineered explosives, this is a good place to use it.
Goblins
Removal should target Turn 1 Lackey, Piledriver, and Warchief, in that order. Counterspells are essentially worthless in this matchup, as Cavern of Souls makes it so you can only counter Aether Vial. Counter Aether Vial. Side out as many counters as you can, bringing in Engineered Explosives, Path to Exile, and Krosan Grip. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
I don't like Engineered explosives in this matchup since the goblin players usually have a wide range of mana costs for their creatures.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53165
Unsure if I love the list, but congrats just the same!:D
So, if you guys can contribute with Matchups, it would be great.
You'll be back
Decks I play and stuff.
Legacy Burn
Modern Mono U Tron
She's probably playable in a list without FoW, but I think Jace + blue package is generally stronger. By the time you put in MOM, you either remove StP, blue cards (and probably lose the ability to play FoW) and you're basically GWu maverick. You lack the ability to run tutor lands with KotR, run fewer basics than GW maverick and don't have the permission to shore up cards that wreck you/combo matches.... Basically MOM doesn't really help the deck with any match ups (BANT traditionally doesn't have any auto-lose match ups) but does weaken the deck to certain strategies.
Hope this helps.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Playing control is too boring...you will be back.
Exactly, I think the general GSZ build is too taxing on Jace + FoW and actually tend to think a dedicated control route (V clique, ensaring bridge, elspeth + jace?? more UWg) or more aggro (blouses bant?) are more appropriate rather than the middle of the road. Pick the one that works best for your meta. It should be noted that although blouses bant has a significantly weaker combo match up, g1 of course, running some combination of 4x stifle in the 75 can really shore that up. I don't think I can really emphasize how strong this card can be at stopping cards/strategies that hose a deck like bant.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
I was thinking of replacing spell pierce with divert. I want to know your opinion on this.
Spell Pierce
Pros
1. Can counter planeswalker
2. Can counter green sun's zenith
3. Can counter opponent's counterspell
Cons
1. Many targeted discard spells can be reflected
2. Unable to deal with current meta of Abrupt Decays
Divert
Pros
1. Much more devastating against discard
2. Can counter/redirect opponent's counterspell
3. Will destroy abrupt decay
4. will destroy decks running sinkhole
5. will destroy decks running creature removal
Cons
1. cannot counter planeswalker
2. Cannot counter Green Sun's zenith
3. Cannot deal with enchantments like counterbalance, humility, moat
4. Cannot counter top, vial, Crucible.
So i was thinking, with this meta being RUG, BUG, JUND, Esper, It may be wise to play divert instead of spell pierce. If anything we have FOW to deal with the most problematic cards.
Even against matchups like Combo, we can deal with their Tendrils and such. The only problem would be dealing with Show and Tell decks where we cannot divert those cards, but can spell pierce.
What do you think guys?
Spell Pierce is quite relevant against a combo-heavy meta. If you have more aggro (ie; discard and removal over big business spells), you may have a point on divert. Both have the [I ruin your plan unless you pay 2] situation. Divert against planeswalkers or show and tell do very little. That's where pierce shines.
I also find Geist to be totally undervalued. The card is absolutely insane for UW decks right now. Removal won't hit it and it's basically a 3 turn clock against fetchland decks (large % of the field). Geist competes with Kotr and Clique. I'll make the Geist > Clique argument, but again, the meta influences that decision.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I think if you run snapcaster mage, you really must build around it. (i like the fact you have 3 surgicals, no bojuka bog) You probably can take out the last path to exile for an additional card against control.
However, the problem lies is deathrite shaman.
^^This.
Okay, this is a lot of theory/fusion of ideas. A while back, it was postulated that SFM decks did not need the card. Some decks like Maverick and Blade converted to 'no SFM' configurations that worked well. Patriot came and went and is now kinda-sorta back again based on this principle. I'm going to sound very weird as I make some oddball analogies.
Legacy aggro-control (let's just agree Bant falls under this classification) wants to be boxing/fighting against the opponent like punch-punch-punch. There's a fluidity in building up spells: t1 things, t2, t3, t4, etc...you keep building presence AND control the board.
What has come to be known as 'typical SFM decks' play out like punch-wind up.....BIG PUNCH. SFM is definitely comparable to some swinging roundhouse punch. If you connect, you're going to be amazing. If the opponent sidesteps or reads you, the whiff (of not landing the blow) can be devastating for the rest of the match. Yes, you can recover ground, but the miss is costly.
Where I'm going with this silly analogy is that SFM is literally a dud. It's a 1/2 white girl for 1W. However, you play the card as a 2-turn spell hoping to land that ultra-powerful equipment-backed attack. In some circumstances, the SFM play is actually 3 turns:
1 - play SFM
2 - ability brings equipment to battlefield
3 - equip and swing
If something were to interrupt the "I have my equipment attached to my attacker" situation, you're in quite a hole. I'm speaking in loose terms because a variety of variables are also at play: discard against you, removal against SFM, attacks against your mana to play the equipment/use SFM, you having countermagic, SFM being countered, other creatures being able to carry the equipment, etc. In short, SFM is undeniably high-risk, high-return. I've won games using SFM decks digging for batterskull T2 and playing it out T3. "You don't have an answer? Okay. 4/4 vig lifelink attacker coming in. Enjoy"
In Rocher's list -- compared to the current meta -- I think SFM is clogging up the progression of the deck. I DO NOT discredit players who have had success with this card/setup. However, at the moment, I am in agreement with the players who made the shift from Patriot SFM decks to Patriot Tempo and Maverick with SFM becoming what it is today. Bant does not want to slow down. As it stands, it doesn't even threaten til turn 3/4. This is why the deck has a very wind-up feel. It's currently designed as not even waking up until the midgame. Now, if you can ensure SFM will be "okay" (ie; played, not killed, etc), its value greatly increases but the flow of the deck is still punch-wind up..still winding up...BIG PUNCH rather than a fluid punch-punch-punch effect.
The 2 things that accelerates the deck: GSZ (arbor) and Hierarch still can't prevent that bottleneck from SFM. You're still going to have to wait an entire turn just to get the toy on the battlefield (unless it's late game where you have very powerful things to help you anyway). SFM will not come out earlier than T2. This is different from the amazing 3 and 4 drops this deck plays, which CAN come out earlier.
T1: Hierarch --> T2: KotR --> T3: KotR [active] + Jace [active]....is an insane progression. This is very punch-punch-punch. Things are coming out and you can be threatening right away.
Compare that to
T1: Hierarch ---> T2: SFM ---> T3: still not attacking (ability brings in equip) ---> T4: drop no threats because we now want to equip SFM
or
T1: Hierarch ---> T2: SFM ---> T3: still not attacking (ability brings in equip) ---> T4: the equipment lays on the field as we bring in another creature
****
Personally, I think Bant can swap out SFM and still run 2x jitte if it wanted equipment. It can also run creatures that do stuff/threaten. Even Goyf or Ooze in her slot opens you up to some more fluid punch-punch-punch progression
Yup. Look at UR delver and Patriot tempo. Look at RUG (midrange). You need to reconfigure things, but there's A LOT of merit behind snapcaster being a supplement card. The issue, which you also mention, is that he's definitely a "build around me" card. Nevertheless, people magically forget SFM warps lists as well. At least extra removal or filter do stuff. Same goes for a naked SCM who is at worst a 2/1 flash blocker who pitches to force. And yes, SCM is a 3cc in my eyes as well.
If I built around SCM in a bant shell, I would consider:
4 Hierarch
4 Goyf
3 SCM
5 KotR/Geist/Clique
3 Jace
/19 permanents
4 Force
3 [Counter]
3 [Counter]
4 Bstorm
4 Swords
/18 spells (all instants)
23 lands
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
You guys should really try upping the mana dorks. I've been playing 2 deathrites - minus 1 maze and minus 1 horizon canopy...21 lands.
so I have 4 nobles and 2 DRS. It gives me a total of 4 gy hate cards as well as 6 1 drop cards which produce mana.
I think the only spot use SCM is the vendillion clique spot. Lets see how that goes.
Maybe i'm over simplifying things but it seems warden is building a more control focused list where as aene is going a more aggro route with landing a geist and riding removal and SCM to make sure he gets there.
I have had success with SFM in the past, but warden you made a great point and explained it well ...kudos... I play her and *hope* that she makes it untouched for a turn or 2, or my equipment doesnt get seized away.
I'm not exactly ready to give up my cliques yet as they are amazing in my show and tell infested meta.
Is bant going to see a resurgence tarmogoyf? Our exalted means our goyfs always win the war.
@Warden
4 Force
3 [Counter]
3 [Counter]
4 Bstorm
4 Swords
/18 spells (all instants)
This spell line up looks like the nutter butters with SCM. I think peirce and snare split should handle most anything.
I'm loving the input guys please keep it up, and Aenesidem, I'm glad even tho your playing esper your still posting here. I value your input greatly.:D
So, this begs the question. Whats blue for exactly? Use blue for some versatility, but not overboard. Im all about using Jace, as he is awesome utility for Bant. He digs for threats, can act as a win condition, control outs the adversary might get, unsummon blockers/attackers. Plus, in Bant as a creature heavier versoin, theyre would be more protection for Jace, making him harder to kill and stick, which is awesome for you. Geist of Saint Traft, is the other best reason to go blue. I know you guys played with this card or against this card. Now add Sfmystic equips and Mother of Runes to the picture with Geist and imagine the scene. Yeah, exactly. The last reason for blue, and the hardest is counterspells. Yeah, they are amazing. I dont know if they belong, but if they do its only to serve as a way to defend against what Maverick cant, the stack. And even then, thats basically combo to an extent some control. You can attack control with things like equipment, manlands and Planeswalkers to evade Terminus/Supreme Verdict. You cannot however beat combo without some way of impeding the stack, either with hatebears (the maverick way) or countermagic (the blue way) or a little of both. Maybe a little of both. Maybe Meddling mages in the sideboard with Force.
Either way, its kinda like Karate Kid. Either do Bant as creature oriented, yes. Or do Bant as control oriented and less creature emphasis, yes. Do a little of both, get SQUISHED. Understand?
Thanks, glad I can sound intelligent lol
Same. But it's literally what happens to decks. You tend to do nothing and hope to god the 2 or 3 turns you've invested pan out.
I'd play goyf. I see no reason not to. And it's insane in the shell I provided. You have a mix of creatures, spells, (assumed) fetch, and jace.
Reading that made me smile....and also want nutter butter snacks
Raze, some really good discussion here as well. I'm currently playing Maverick because I think their gameplan overall is better than Bant. I also lack goyfs, so that's a nice $400 hurdle standing in the way between what I wrote and actually playing it out at an event.
I see 3 decks in a continuum. This also reflects my shift in decks I've played over the past year:
Stoneforge UWx ---> Bant ---> Maverick
Stoneforge is reliant on blue. This ties into a lot of what you said. However, I seriously craved KotR. She's unbelievably good in spite of abrupt decay and DRS being things. You play through it. I'll apply lots of pressure with my (often) 8/8 land-tutoring mistress.
I felt UWx Stoneforge lacked oomph. Lingering Souls and Thoughtseizes could easily become KotR and Noble Hierarch. I really wanted some beatdown. However, the deck lost focus in favor of a hodge podge of 'good U/G/W stuff'. Goodstuff decks rarely win.
Somewhere in playing Bant I realized the importance of a true gameplan. I mentioned this in the previous thread and Raze just echoed the sentiments in the quote: decide what the hell you want to do FIRST, then build. In essence, good decks have specific fatal flaws because they are so dedicated on a set plan. UWx was never 'amazing' against anything. It was trying to be a catch-all and actually did a decent job at keeping you in every game. However, I wanted change. Esper didn't rub me the right way. Bant too needed focus. For me, I found an appreciation for aggro and disruption.
I'm currently on Maverick because I like the emphasis on consistency and aggressive disruption.
In my experiences, I find it too difficult to manage the blue/green balance. I made my case on dropping SFM, which lowers my dependence on white to Knight/Geist/Mirran/Swords and possibly Elspeth. I keep trying to tie things back together but the end result is a pile. Given the current cache of cards I own, I can't piece together a respectable 75. Blue means I want counters. Period. Without countermagic, you can --- as I did --- just run an even more aggressive deck like Maverick. Brainstorm is nice, but it's not the end-all. Sylvan Library and a solid GSZ plan make up for brainstorm.
The real 'shortcoming' of Maverick is its weakness to the stack. I can't really stop spells from coming in once cast. I have no force/daze/pierce/snare. But IMO that's okay. That's my fatal flaw I'm willing to live with! At the moment I think bant is way better WITH dedicated counters. I've tested and tried different counter configurations. You need something in the deck to stop opponent's spells. Otherwise go pure GW because it's the better aggro deck. I stick by the above post on how I'd apporach Bant.
@Mother of Runes:
This was the first card I found I wanted more and more. It got me going into Maverick. Next was GSZ. From there I just dropped the filler cards and played more creatures.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
This is the problem with Snapcaster Mage. On the source, the Bant brainstorming mantra used to be, you get to pick 2 out of: SFM, SCM, Force, and GSZ. The breaking point for running SCM/Force/GSZ is in the 3-drops. Moreover, SCM is really outclassed as a "value" creature compared to the cascade decks. His extra spell is obviously more consistent, but his body is smaller and he's worse at his best.
I've run the GSZ aggro control lists quite a lot, and fairly successfully. I try to cap myself at 7 3-drops; you have 9 (not counting GSZ->Pridemage/Ooze). Geist+SCM gives you a small army of guys who can't beat a Mongoose. Exalted helps, but lacking the 4th Knight, SFM, and Clique means you're built to loose ground stalls.
I like GSZ builds a lot, but I, too, think Geist might be really good right now, and prefer the equipment/exalted plan against the fair decks. Equipment happens to also be good with Clique, who is also sometimes able to beat Abrupt Decay, but this crowds out the 3-slot. I might play something like this:
22 Land
4 Hiearrch
4 SFM
2 Pridemage
3 Knight
3 Geist
1 Clique (+1-2 in board)
3 JTMS
1 Sword of Feast/Famine (+Jitte in board)
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords
4 Force
3 Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
This is another list that's better without snapcaster mage (and very close to New Horizons).
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/budget-bant-deck/
What changes would you guys make to the deck or is it fine? I know that Thragtusk + Restoration Angel isn't viable, but we mainly play each other.
If you have any suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it. This is from my testing, so it my be skewed for you
KEYS TO VICTORY
RUG
The key here is to resolve your Knights of the Reliquary. They do not have the answers to take down the knight game 1. Part of RUG's gameplan is to deny you mana, so having lands in the graveyard won't be a problem. Watch out for Forked Bolt to take out your mana dorks. Your mana dorks are essential to you winning this game.
Game 2, I typically take out Jace and Counters. Spell Pierce is not bad in this matchup because RUG usually doesn't have any lands in play. FOW goes, Jace goes. I have been playing Divert in the sideboard, which has been a house against RUG. Its similar to Pierce, but those Bolts, Chains, Forked Bolts become much more painful against them than just countering it. Watch out for Submerge, it is guaranteed they will bring this in against you to bounce your Knight.
BUG
Learn to play around daze. They will try to daze all of your early spells so watch out for that. Abrupt decays typically target your knight while they bash you in with their Tarmogoyf. The good thing is you have more creatures than they do and you have Scavenging Ooze to eat their lands, their spells, and to shrink their goyfs. Watch out for Hymn to Tourachs. It may break you if you don't hide your key pieces. The bad players will use their decays on your mana dorks, but the better players will save it for your knights. The reason I say this is because your nobles will not be strong enough to beat through their defenses anyways.
Game 2, Bring in your Path to Exiles, your diverts. BUG runs absolutely no basic lands. They will not be searching for anything if you path them. Again, spell pierce is good in this matchup and so are diverts. They do not have the lands to pay for these spells. Bad players will bring in sinkholes against you, but you have so many mana dorks, it doesn't matter if they bring it in. Of course, you can still lose to sinkholes as with any deck. Watch out for dark blast. they will try to remove all your little creatures with it. Jace again wins games. If you have elspeth and Thrun, please do bring these in.
Sneak and Show
One of the harder matchups. Turn 1 Ancient Tomb and Turn 2 island could mean disaster. They have counters to back up these two lines of plays. You do have counters and vendillion cliques so not all is lost. You also have knights of the reliquary to fetch your karakas.
Game 2, Bring in counters, bring in your oblivion rings and detention sphere. Bring in flusterstorm. They will bring in REBs and Pyroblasts. Hope they don't go off. Its still not an easy matchup. Thats why this deck has been in the decks to beat for so long.
- Counter Argument
SNEAK ATTACK/Show and tell decks in my experience are one of the best matches this deck have. We have Knights and counterspells and the same time. If you add some Surgicals game 2 and 3 the match become really hard for them.
Miracles
Game 1. Your deck is faster than theirs. Keep dropping creatures, put them on a clock. Eventually, they will try to plow your little creatures one by one. Don't counter it. Let them do it. Save your counters for the more important things like the miracles cards. Even Terminus you do not have to counter. Its more important to counter their win condition, Jace and Entreat the Angels. Just put pressure on them and the game should be ok.
Game 2. Same gameplan, but this time you have teeg. Don't worry if teeg dies, just have them waste more spells on your creatures while you save the counters for their most important spells. This matchup shouldn't really pose a problem since you have so many cards maindeck that fights them. 3 Cliques, 3 jaces. Try to drop your jace sooner than they do so they won't be able to activate it. Also, Karakas vendilion clique combo is your best friend here. Make sure they review the miracles card, then you clique in to remove the one with the trigger.
Dredge
Game 1, As always, they can go off. Try to protect yourself with Force of Will turn 1. Watch out for Dread return and cabal therapy naming your key cards. Brainstorm the hate away. Drop Ooze as soon as possible.
Game 2. I don't run that many graveyard hate cards. I only use 1 crop rotation and 1 bojuka bog. I do have 4 main deck graveyard hate, 2 scavenging ooze and 2 deathrite shamans. Getting Ooze in play is your most important goal. I also run detention sphere so I can get rid of zombies.
Jund
Jund is very similar to BUG. Follow that game plan and you should be able to win. Save your counters for liliana of the veil. Divert is also key when they try to get your cards with thoughtseizes and hymns and bolts.
Esperblade
Someone Please give me some feedback on this. I don't have experience playing them all too much.
Maverick
If you are not running the Natural Order package from the side, give up.
Elves
Save your Swords for back breaking boosters like Priest of Titania, or maybe even Heritage Druid if it is their only way of tapping Nettle Sentinels for mana. Submerge and Engineered Explosives from the SB could give you a fighting chance to slow them down beyond recovery. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
Goblins
Removal should target Turn 1 Lackey, Piledriver, and Warchief, in that order. Counterspells are essentially worthless in this matchup, as Cavern of Souls makes it so you can only counter Aether Vial. Counter Aether Vial. Side out as many counters as you can, bringing in Engineered Explosives, Path to Exile, and Krosan Grip. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
Save your Swords for back breaking boosters like Priest of Titania, or maybe even Heritage Druid if it is their only way of tapping Nettle Sentinels for mana. Submerge and Engineered Explosives from the SB could give you a fighting chance to slow them down beyond recovery. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
Goblins
Removal should target Turn 1 Lackey, Piledriver, and Warchief, in that order. Counterspells are essentially worthless in this matchup, as Cavern of Souls makes it so you can only counter Aether Vial. Counter Aether Vial. Side out as many counters as you can, bringing in Engineered Explosives, Path to Exile, and Krosan Grip. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.
LEGACY:
BURGAd Nauseum TendrilsGRUB
MODERN:
RWGBurnGWR
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR
UWBrago, King EternalUW