MTG Salvation

I picked up a Tamiyo a while ago but haven't played with it yet.

Worship: I like the power of the effect, and that it hoses some decks. That is definitely a good characteristic for sideboard cards. That said, I haven't played it, and don't have any plans to test it. If you do, post your results please.

The major change I made to this deck recently was to put 1 sanctum prelate in the sideboard in place of elspeth and a snapcaster mage in the main for my sword of fire and ice. Prelate is outstanding. The snapcaster is great against eldrazi and maverick and very good against delver. I tested Leovold, Emissary of Trest at the Richmond Classic (finished 13th). It was outstanding against Lands and ANT, but generally underwhelming. Since those matchups are already very good, I cut him. He is very good when you are in a proactive posture but poor when you are behind. He might be worth sideboarding, if I can find a way to condense my combo hate a bit more. To play Leovold properly in the main deck the mana base would need some work, for example cutting the wastelands for 2 more fetches a bayou and a savannah and adding the 4rth deathrite... not sure that is worth it.

First off I realize I'm doing something less normal than Vendilion Clique, and True-Name Nemesis. However I have a small Legacy tournament this Saturday and need some input if possible for a Bant build. I would expect a meta of: Death and Taxes, Punishing Fire decks [Lands, Punishing Thing, maybe Punishing Maverick], URx Delver [UR, then RUG, then Grixis], Infect, Eldrazi stompy, some crazy fringe combo decks [Cephalid Breakfast/Boo Berries, Cheerios, Alluren, Food Chain and maybe a Splinter Twin-y deck], and maybe a sprinkling of Sneak Show and a storm variant (possibly High Tide). Years ago I quit legacy, and these are the decks I used to play: Death and Taxes, 43 Lands (BUG+Mindslaver pre-Punishing Fire version), Cephalid Breafast, Burn, Manaless Dredge. When Modern was new I brewed a local shop level Bant deck with Cold-Eyed Selkie and a bunch of exalted and it was one of the most fun decks I ever played with the exception of matchups of Electrolyze. Since Bant is a tier 1.5 legacy deck in a meta of essentially no Electrolyze's (I've seen a forked bolt or two in UR delver), I'd like to try this out in Legacy.

The most important opening play is Noble Hierarch, and from there a turn two Cold-Eyed Selkie, Sanctum Prelate or Ardent Plea are my ideal plays I believe. I know Ardent Plea sounds like garbage to most people, but when I played it in Modern I liked the idea more than Shardless Agent since with all the Exalted triggers, an additional Exalted trigger (that survives most sweepers) was more beneficial than a 2/2.

T1: Hierarch
T2: Cold-Eyed Selkie
T3: Ardent Plea -> Qasali Pridemage // Hit for 4, draw 4, play land have Pridemage's disenchant up. Was one of my favorite fairly commmon openings when I played it in modern. Here the low end blue count is supplemented by this obnoxious amount of card draw to keep Force pitchable cards in hand.

Legacy though has additional insane lines like:
T1: Hierarch
T2: Sanctum Prelate

Which should be insane against the vast majority of match ups. IE: Name 1 against Delver and you just have to race a 12 creature deck, name 2 against Lands and shut off Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire. Also strong against Storm, Infect yada yada yada.

Meddling Mage is more Sanctum Prelates essentially as a card that requires knowledge of the format, but disables decks. I run Path to Exile over Swords to Plowshares simply because Swords to Plowshares is a good Meddling Mage name and my deck isn't on a mana denial plan anyways.

Anyways here are the cards I own and if you could swap them around for an ideal starting 60 (and any Standard cards are free game for SB as well like Tamiyo or Gideon). I want to try Rafiq though, that's one thing I really want to keep main, I used to use the three drop Ajani in Modern and double strike was an insane finisher.

Breaking down what 10 basics I should run would be a great help as well and I am definitely on 10 basics (like I will not be able to get more non basics for this tournament and I dont want to run the Standard duels, and because Basics do have upside as I've learned playing D&T).

@inked:
I would recommend Tamiyo, Field Researcher over Rafiq. She can clear the path against blockers.
Also, would try to find room for a Sylvan Library.
Maybe even Rancor to make sure damage gets through...
Edric, Spymaster of Trest, may also be good.

@inked. I think you rightly point out that T1 Noble is your best opening, and given your mana base constraints, I think you should include at least 1, probably 2, birds of paradise. I have found 7 dorks to be optimal, but I recognize that birds is much weaker than noble and deathrite doesn't fit your deck or fetch count, so you probably don't want to go to 7. Birds is often a poor hit off of plea, but you need good mana to make a deck like this work.

You might also consider picking up some seachrome coasts, razorverge thickets, and/or botanical sanctums to act as pseudo-duals on the early turns when it is most important, and bring your basic count down to 4-5.

I went with Birds of Paradise as a 2 of and added a Manriki-Gusari sideboard. I moved the Path to Exiles to the SB along with Gaddock Teeg and cut the Basics down to 2 of each. I brought Jace, the Mind Sculptor, two True-Name Nemesis and all 4 Sanctum Prelates main. I played 5 test games against D&T and won 4 (misplayed the loss by playing my lands out of order and thusly getting snagged by Thalia setting me back a turn on an already slow hand), I also played a bunch of games against Infect and had maybe a 30% matchup preboard (naming was hard to do on Meddling Mage and Prelates, was never quiet sure what to name) but moved to pretty dang great post board.

Seems like it may be worth it to post a list I was championing a few years ago minus the dig through time that I ended up using. Impulse can function similarly in its role, it just can't find both halves of a given "combo."



-NoTopBantBlade

Something similar to what I posted I ran today. I played against UWR Miracles rounds 1 and 2 (1-2, then 2-1) then Punishing Fire, Nahiri, and Dak Fayden Miracles [which got 1st place] that beat me without me having a shot. I then played a really fun match up against Alluren which beat me in a super close game 3. Really have no idea how to beat that Punishing Fire Miracles with any deck to be honest.

Quote from inked »

Something similar to what I posted I ran today. I played against UWR Miracles rounds 1 and 2 (1-2, then 2-1) then Punishing Fire, Nahiri, and Dak Fayden Miracles [which got 1st place] that beat me without me having a shot. I then played a really fun match up against Alluren which beat me in a super close game 3. Really have no idea how to beat that Punishing Fire Miracles with any deck to be honest.

I was your Punishing Miracles opponent. I wrote a mini-recap here, in the punishing miracles thread, but from your account, I may have misremembered the order of my second and third matches.

I don't really know how to attack the deck from a fair angle -- more so than normal miracles, the punishing build might just be inherently good against this kind of strategy. One way that you might be able to work it if you're trying to metagame against it would be Thrun, the last troll, Troll Ascetic, or Dungrove Elder. Anything without hexproof is going to be pretty vulnerable unless you hit ~5 toughness (and even then, you need to dodge Nahiri and JTMS). Geist of Saint Traft is probably too greedy since it walks into the pile of pyroblasts that that deck runs. Thrun would essentially allow you to fight over terminus and ignore all else -- which seems like a good position to be in. Other than that, I could see Stirring Wildwood or Lumbering Falls doing work against me

Quote from ExpiredRascals »

Quote from inked »

Something similar to what I posted I ran today. I played against UWR Miracles rounds 1 and 2 (1-2, then 2-1) then Punishing Fire, Nahiri, and Dak Fayden Miracles [which got 1st place] that beat me without me having a shot. I then played a really fun match up against Alluren which beat me in a super close game 3. Really have no idea how to beat that Punishing Fire Miracles with any deck to be honest.

I was your Punishing Miracles opponent. I wrote a mini-recap here, in the punishing miracles thread, but from your account, I may have misremembered the order of my second and third matches.

I don't really know how to attack the deck from a fair angle -- more so than normal miracles, the punishing build might just be inherently good against this kind of strategy. One way that you might be able to work it if you're trying to metagame against it would be Thrun, the last troll, Troll Ascetic, or Dungrove Elder. Anything without hexproof is going to be pretty vulnerable unless you hit ~5 toughness (and even then, you need to dodge Nahiri and JTMS). Geist of Saint Traft is probably too greedy since it walks into the pile of pyroblasts that that deck runs. Thrun would essentially allow you to fight over terminus and ignore all else -- which seems like a good position to be in. Other than that, I could see Stirring Wildwood or Lumbering Falls doing work against me

Yeah from what I remember you went against someone round one, then I moved round two to your table and then I went one spot over for the next three rounds. You played against Alluren round two, then he played against Food Chain round 3, then I played Alluren round 4 while you played the Miracles player that beat me round one.

I would think Meddling Mage on Punishing Fire, then T3 Prelate on 4 (Nahiri, JTMS, humility) then find another Meddling Mage or Prelate for Terminus. The issue is Meddling mage is blue so Blast can snipe it, then Fire can shoot the Prelate and all the locks come off. So basically I need to Hierarch into Prelate one 1, then prelate or Mage on 2/Fire, then Prelates on 4 and Mages on Terminus. Regardless it's all a tremendous amount of right cards in hand at the right time when knowing what to name. It's much much worse than regular miracles to play against. Also I think boarding out Stoneforges and all artifacts is sort of a necessity given how much of a blow out Dack Fayden was. Maybe SB Geist like you said would be a direction to take it as with Geist and True Name that puts you on counter with Blast or Terminus then the exalted triggers can put a clock on the game.

The Lumbering Falls would be an easy inclusion though, just a feels bad as you try to T1 manadork into 3 drop and a easy wasteland target.

@ExpiredRascals: you're Punishing Miracles list looks really interesting.

@inked: For the Punishing Miracles match-up: I run 2x Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger's Cage and Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Rest in Peace and Krosan Grip in my sideboard; all of which I would bring in.

-Surgical Extraction would work well in getting rid of Punishing Fire, or Grove of the Burnwillows (I see you don't run Wasteland, so it may be difficult to get a Grove in the yard..).
-Elspeth can help generate a redundant source of attackers.
-Krosan Grip can deal with Top.
I'd also recommend switching Detention Sphere for Council's Judgment, which can deal better with the various planeswalkers. Sphere can always be Decayed or destroyed by something like Nahiri.

Sidenote: since you rely so much on creatures that can't really protect themselves, I'd try to find room for 4x Mother of Runes.

Miracles is a very grindy matchup, with countermagic battles back and forth...you really need to bait counterspells on the things you don't care too much for and try and resolve something like an Elspeth. Not sure about Punishing Miracles as I've only really played against traditional Miracles...but thats how I'd sideboard looking at ExpiredRascals' list.

I'm building a bant list now - weighing my 3 drops between a mix of Vendillion Clique, KOTR, and True-Nemesis, as well as how many Jace's to run main board (my gut says 2).

Also not sure if I should concede to combo/prison decks game 1 and go without force of will, or if I should try to fight that good fight. If I sideboard the FOWs my game 1 looks at least more efficable against other grindy decks game 1 like grixis and Miracles. It feels like such a bad beat against anything but hard combo or a blood moon maybe, which I think I would likely lose to game 1 anyways.

Any thoughts on those cards from someone with more experience with the deck?

Rhox war monk?