Could KrimsonViper or CursedOne help me to be a better pilot ? (playing robbie williams "to be a better man")
I can certainly try, but the deck requires a LOT of thinking, so there is no given situation that encompasses plays. The general idea of this deck is to kill their hand while keeping pressure going, which is why Cabal and Sculler is so good in this deck. You don't just drop creatures and beat, this isn't a Zoo deck, you're going to just run out of gas and get your opponent is going to have better threats. Maximizing damage through critical and incremental plays. View the videos in the I second post of this thread. They're really informative if you catch what and why.
I like Ichorid, but he removes your better recur guys and Rotting Rats was removed for Tidehollow Sculler which is a better discard and a bigger beater and still enables Gravecrawler. The large problem with Lotleth is that he is owned by PtE and StP. It is a terrible excuse, but the other excuse not to use him is he makes the deck just way to grave dependent and inconsistent, this deck should be able to operate without worrying too much about the 'yard and hit the face by saccing, recur and grind out if its a long game. You also are not running enough creatures and the CA created by Looting is epic. Lotleth doesn't come back when he hits the grave, as well. Nether Traitor is a good discussion though. That should be tried out.
By cutting white and putting in loltroll, vengevine, and rootwalla, you get some absolutely explosive plays, and they don't require a ridiculous god hand. You also get an extra way to get bloodghasts in the yard to avoid paying for them. My impression so far is that this list has better post-board games against things that you need to just out-aggro (in particular, things with lots of graveyard hate), but is clearly weaker against things that need disrupting.
I'm a little meh on rootwalla as a 4-of, but he does enable the broken turn 2: troll, discard vengevine, discard and play rootwalla, recur vengevine, attack for 4 and have an obscenely good board position.
I don't know if it's worth playing in the long run, but it is pretty ridiculously fun.
This deck is just not our strategy at all. It is trying to be hyperaggro, and doesn't warrant any sort of consistency. Barely any disruption, which allows this deck go be competitive, and has better SB choices from W. The deck you've presented is known as Living Dead Girl, known for not blocking and just going in the red with everything.
I think loltroll could work. Graveyard dependent? He is a two mana regenerator and trampler. Dosent recur? Neither does feeder. Stp? Not valid. All these creatures lose to it.
How about this, he forces you to keep a mana open forcing you to slow down future progress because the deck is already mana hungry and balances between 20 land and 24. Half of which is fetches. Feeder dies, but he also combos with Blood Artist. Feeder also gets bigger easier and synergizes(sp) with the current strategy
I should add this, I haven't played with Lotleth, so I could be outright wrong. I'd target punch holes before I work it, but I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but I highly believe I'm correct.
Lotleth Troll is the strongest reason to favor a Jund build. It does give the deck another dimension of card advantage. In the right situations it can out-class Goyf, but those situations won't always occur. Actually, I think it has a place in a Modern Zombies build.
I still feel the white options outclass the Troll though in Legacy. More playtesting has revealed that Humility is just bonkers. It's an auto-win against the non-blue decks. O-Ring remains a strong weapon against Know and Tell and general threats. Leyline of Sanctity helps us against Belcher and ANT (matchups that are almost invariably fatal for Living Dead Girl)
In the end, I'd just rather cast Sculler on turn 2 than a Troll. Better to take that Swords or other nasty threat out of their hand.
TL;DR. While the deck becomes better at what it does overall as a Jund version, I think you just become too weak to unfair decks.
Yeah, that was pretty much what I ended up with. You get better against fair decks, and worse against unfair ones. Mostly, I just think it's a fun variant worth playing a few times just for a change of pace.
I like Ichorid, but he removes your better recur guys and Rotting Rats was removed for Tidehollow Sculler which is a better discard and a bigger beater and still enables Gravecrawler. The large problem with Lotleth is that he is owned by PtE and StP. It is a terrible excuse, but the other excuse not to use him is he makes the deck just way to grave dependent and inconsistent, this deck should be able to operate without worrying too much about the 'yard and hit the face by saccing, recur and grind out if its a long game. You also are not running enough creatures and the CA created by Looting is epic. Lotleth doesn't come back when he hits the grave, as well. Nether Traitor is a good discussion though. That should be tried out.
I agree that tidehollow is exponentially better than rotting rats, but it just isn't worth splashing a fourth color to me. Wasteland runs rampant in my meta and having such a delicate mana base was making things too difficult. I have found green to be far superior; at least in my testing.
Lotleth troll is surprisingly good actually. Any creature you could name in this deck is "owned by path", so I don't think thats a viable reason to excuse him. He provides an additional discard outlet for recur-creatures I don't want to hard cast at absolute worst, and a target for removal as well. I'd rather have him pathed than a Gravecrawler honestly. I never end up investing too much to him anyways.
Ichorid I only play as a 2-of for the exact reason you mentioned. He does however help when there is a Lotleth, or carrion feeder in the yard. I've also found that in a pinch it helps having that additional hasty attacker
@Pitplayer IMHO that deck does not have consistency so I think it's not working
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Modern
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Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierach not active Jund Tarmoless not active
DnT White
Living End Jund Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpost not active U/W Titan Control not active Mardu Nahiri/Control not active
After testing Lotleth Troll for about 8 matches he has one weakness that, in my opinion, makes him second tier to our other creature options.
In zombardment we rely on Gravecrawler's and Bloodghast's ability to recur, and in that functionality pump, ping, or play spells. Lotleth Troll at face value seems great, "I can pitch Gravecrawler or Bloodghast, then just fish them back up." That is the best case scenario with him. However, that means you have 8 "pump" spells in your deck that don't completely lose their utility upon feeding. The other creatures you're running immediately become a null factor if pitched. So they are either utility/swingers or a pump. In the case of Carrion Feeder, your creatures are the holy trinity (Util/Pump/Swing).
Troll works well enough as pure offense or defense that you don't need to work very hard to pump him to monumental proportions. With Gravecrawler and Bloodghast, you're going to be discarding him up to around 6/5 most games, anyway, and having cards that are only good with Troll is setting yourself up for an X-for-1 when he gets removed.
I agree with all the Vengevine comments. A creature-heavy deck with discard outlets (troll/looting) gives Vengevine a good chance to pop out of nowhere. Turn two Troll discarding a Basking Rootwalla can put you ahead for the rest of the game. And honestly, hardcasting a topdecked Vine isn't THAT bad, in my experience.
I wanted to try Thrinax because it's in color and has nice interactions with Bombardment. It could be Carrion Feeder in order to help shoot Vine out, or interact with Gravecrawler, but in my opinion he's not as good without Blood Artist.
But how many times will you get Gravecrawler and Bloodghast back into your hand so you can pump Troll again? The answer is you can't. Feeder is better in long standing matchups, especially against decks that pack StP, PtE, and Terminus because he can send your creatures into the 'yard in response. Don't forget, Looting makes discarding creatures awkward when Troll is out.
Rootwalla shouldn't even be played outside of Standard, limited, or block. In such a light mana deck, you would prefer to use that pump mana on moving forward instead of mana sinking. Speaking of mana, Don't dream of playing Vengevine for his cost instead of cheating him in. 21 lands is nowhere near enough to do this in time and if you do, you're probably staring down at KotR, Goyf, Batterskull, chumps, or mana being tapped for the answer.
Troll is a card that has to be built around to perform consistently, which makes it a bad option IMHO. Assuming a Jund build, when would you ever want to pitch a Bob or a Tarmogoyf to it? You can argue that you wouldn't ever, but then you must take into account that you're playing Basking Rootwalla and Sprouting Thrinax in your main deck over much better creatures like the aforementioned just for the sake of the Troll. Synergy is underrated, but not that underrated. Basking Rootwalla is a terrible topdeck past turn 3 in this format.
On the other hand, BRW Zombies runs Tidehollow Sculler and Lingering Souls, two very underrated cards that are both highly synergistic and powerful draws even in the late game. (Sculler is weaker in the late game, but still relevant given his ability to help recur Gravecrawler). If you've played Zombardment longer than a few days, you already understand how powerful Lingering Souls is. If left unanswered, four spirit tokens usually get there. They become way better when combined with Carrion Feeder or Bombardment.
What are people using for a sideboard lately? Blood Moon wrecks the manabase which is why I'm liking Deathrite Shaman even more. What disenchant effect is best for SB? Ray of Revelation looks strong but I don't know how important artifact hate is. Also I feel like 2 Contamination should find their way into the SB - it is literally an autowin if it sticks against nonblack decks.
I'd also like to quickly weigh in on the Troll debate. The utility Carrion Feeder grants is crucial for the UW Miracles MU other than that I don't see how Feeder is better. People keep making the argument that Troll can't save other creatures from PtE and StP but the point is moot. If I have a couple Gravecrawlers or Bloodghasts out, they were definitely pitched to Troll already, meaning Troll is probably a 4/3. Nobody when given the opportunity is going to Path or Swords a 2/1 that can't block over an active Troll that can trample and regenerate. Place Carrion Feeder in the same setting, the opponent will most likely remove the Feeder knowing the obvious sac in response trick. The downside to troll is being massively overstated. Also the fact that Troll can reliably block and regenerate is nothing to scoff at. The RBW version of the deck relies so heavily on discard if something does hit the battlefield there is almost no defense against it, Troll solves that problem. SB is going to have to answer the UW Miracle menace maybe something like Scapegoat? The deck plays different absolutely and becomes more midrange relying more heavily on Deathrite Shaman, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Personally that's the game style I prefer to play, so I'll be testing a Junk list and post results here.
22 Land may be a little low so I might jump to 23 depending, if I do I'll probably just cut one of the 1 of's. Also I'm not sure if it's too cute but I may try testing some number of Life from the Loams with a Dryad Arbor (free troll food).
I'm really digging this deck and I like all the directions people are going. Four colors seems to spread a mana base really thin. I went very simple in only r/b and didn't even splash a third color for consistency and more disruption. Here is the list I've put together.
Creatures
4x Gravecrawler
4x Bloodghast
4x Blood Artist
4x Rotting Rats
4x Carrion Feeder
A couple of different cards are fairly effective in the build. Crucible allows you to landfall for Bloodghast as well as bring back wastelands to wreck your opponents mana base. Phyrexian Altar allows you to combo out with Blood Artist and Gravecrawler. Faithless Looting allows you to dig and to get crawler or bloodghast in the GY.
Tragic Slip is a beast in this deck and the Darkblast allows you to dig for the creatures you want to recur. Rats can be very good as well being sacrificed and then brought back again. I feel like this deck doesn't have issues with mana/wasteland, Has a ton of disruption in discard and its own wastelands to stop their top decking as well. Just my thoughts
I'm really digging this deck and I like all the directions people are going. Four colors seems to spread a mana base really thin. I went very simple in only r/b and didn't even splash a third color for consistency and more disruption. Here is the list I've put together.
A couple of different cards are fairly effective in the build. Crucible allows you to landfall for Bloodghast as well as bring back wastelands to wreck your opponents mana base. Phyrexian Altar allows you to combo out with Blood Artist and Gravecrawler. Faithless Looting allows you to dig and to get crawler or bloodghast in the GY.
Tragic Slip is a beast in this deck and the Darkblast allows you to dig for the creatures you want to recur. Rats can be very good as well being sacrificed and then brought back again. I feel like this deck doesn't have issues with mana/wasteland, Has a ton of disruption in discard and its own wastelands to stop their top decking as well. Just my thoughts
One thing I would like to offer is my opinion on the mana base that seems to be giving you the notion that spreading into 3 or 4 colors is less advantageous. In my personal list I run 8 fetch lands, all of which can fish up my Swamps, Badlands, Bayous, or Scrublands. The great thing about this type of mana base is this: A fetch can grab you whatever the situation calls for. If you don't have the fetch, it shouldn't matter too much because most of your spells are black spells to begin with. When you throw in 8 fetches and Deathrite into the whole equation, there have been only a handful of times on turn 2 or 3 where I wish I had a bayou or something.
Yes, in a deck where most of your power comes from one or two VERY specific cards/colors you may be tempted to try and align your deck to those types of cards, but by adding in the green and white spells you add toolbox and sideboard options that make the deck that much more powerful and versatile. White gives Lingering Souls and Obilivion Ring. Green gives my Deathrite Shaman the ability to hate away targets from Reanimator, or even Dredge. Green also gives me one of the best removal spells the deck has access to which is Abrupt Decay. This card is early, it's tempo momentum, it puts you ahead of decsk that would otherwise out pace you. We don't care about the combo into fatties, we can control hands. Abrupt Decay drops Delver, Jitte, SfM, Goyf, KotR.
To end this simply, spreading out into 4 colors does not hurt you at all, it makes you stronger and more potent as a whole.
@Biglow after first glance at your list, I can tell you definitively without a doubt cut 1 Rotting Rats for 1 more Faithless Looting. You absolutely want the full 4 if you're playing red.
Maybe Bob is just better, but I think with the recursive nature of the deck it's worth discussing. Bloodghast makes Mentor insanely good as you can fetch EOT and use the land fetched to draw allowing for card advantage without tying down any mana for your turn.
Golgari Charm has the potential to replace zealous persecution in the sideboard, you lose the chance for an alpha against tribal, but you gain enchantment hate which is really important considering Blood Moon and E plague just end us. Plus the regenerate has an off chance of being relevant.
Rakdos Charm could fill in a couple of grave hate slots. Again the added hate against artifacts is awesome, and the 1 damage ability gives adittional reach in the off chance you don't find a Blood Artist or Goblin Bombardment. Plus the Bombardment and Feeder allow us to sac all our creatures mitigating our damage received while maximizing output.
@jabari31: Mentor of the Meek would be an auto-include for any white deck if that pesky little 1 colorless mana requirement were not there on the card. Then again, without that mana cost the card would be broken even by legacy standards. This deck is far too mana hungry for Mentor. Card draw needs to stay with Looting and Bob.
@biglow2: This deck seems like it has a greedy mana-base but really the deck plays muck more like a Bwrg deck rather than a BRWg if you get my drift. Also the addition of Deathrite Shaman greatly helps out against Wasteland. If you are not going full Brwg splashes then at least splash white as Tidehollow ScullerLingering Souls and sideboard options like Humility and Oblivion Ring are essential to the plan.
I do see how the both W and G help out and it does give a ton more SB options and fills holes like enchantment and artifact removal. Deathrite Shaman is so versatile i hadn't really thought of that as a fixer as well. I'll have to try out the different colors and see what I like.
Btw Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon can shut this deck cold
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Modern
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Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierach not active Jund Tarmoless not active
DnT White
Living End Jund Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpost not active U/W Titan Control not active Mardu Nahiri/Control not active
Btw Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon can shut this deck cold
Yes, now we just need to find someone to run 2-4 copies of this card in their sideboard so that they can hose a deck that makes up at most 5% of any given open.
Golgari Charm is out classed by Abrupt Decay. If you're scared of Blood Moon, run Ancient Grudge . Please, whatever you do, don't run Dryad Arbor. The deck is more like BRw(g). I would much rather play Bob than Mentor because he is on color, free cards, and makes Shaman better by eating removal, and Shaman makes Bob better by eating removal.
@proxysetting
Well it's alway depend on your meta. In my current Local Game Store the Meta is mostly agrro or agrro combo with a so-so blue deck theme (from 10 players only 3-4 play blue). Surgical extraction is almost everywhere in SB and because almost half play dual land so 2 blood moon is ok. Nowadays the meta is shifted to tribal (heck we have player playing goblins, merfolks, knights, ally, vampire, zombie, elves)
My meta is lack of ANT, dredge, countertop, show and tell, infect, dragon stompy
@Krimson Viper
I think nowadays we need to play 1-2 basic plains with revoke existence to deal with Blood Moon
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Modern
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Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierach not active Jund Tarmoless not active
DnT White
Living End Jund Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpost not active U/W Titan Control not active Mardu Nahiri/Control not active
We can't play basics outside of swamp. With Shaman in the deck, we can still produce colors outside of B. Blood Moon is not played very much, and we have discard to protect us from it landing. It is a heavy hit, but we still have basic Swamps and our draw card in Looting. Disenchant and O-Ring can both take care of Engineered Plague.
I don't know why so few are afraid of blood moon - it is a common sideboard card for SneakShow, not to mention the other decks potentially running it (Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Random Jank.dec). Also another huge problem for the deck is Back to Basics.
Abrupt Decay does do a great job solving these problems if we have the mana. Personally I don't like disenchant as much as Ray of Revelation. What artifacts are really a must answer for us? Chalice at 1 is annoying but by no means game breaking. Affinity has all but disappeared, and MUD stompy is a rare matchup. Personally I'd rather focus on hating as many enchantments as possible - Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Moat, Engineered Plague, Leyline of the Void and its contemporaries. Honestly the only artifact that's really scary is Grafdigger's Cage. Cage should be answered by a couple EE's in the SB anyway though. Unless I'm missing something, I intend on leaving the artifact hate at home.
EDIT: Also Faerie Macabre over Surgical Extraction IMO. Deathrite is awesome gravehate but if you're playing Surgical as an extra bullet make the switch. Faerie can potentially provide a clock if deathrite has everything under control, plus it is instant speed as well. Sure you don't get the other copies but in MU's like Reanimator or Dredge getting that second card already in graveyard can be more valuable.
EDIT2: @Krimson Viper - You said earlier Abrupt Decay outclasses Golgari Charm but that is irrelevant. The question isn't Golgari Charm or Abrupt Decay, its Golgari Charm or Zealous Persecution? Abrupt Decay has its slots, I'm wondering whether or not Golgari Charm shores up certain other MU's i.e. Maverick or other tribal.
I don't know why so few are afraid of blood moon - it is a common sideboard card for SneakShow, not to mention the other decks potentially running it (Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Random Jank.dec). Also another huge problem for the deck is Back to Basics.
Abrupt Decay does do a great job solving these problems if we have the mana. Personally I don't like disenchant as much as Ray of Revelation. What artifacts are really a must answer for us? Chalice at 1 is annoying but by no means game breaking. Affinity has all but disappeared, and MUD stompy is a rare matchup. Personally I'd rather focus on hating as many enchantments as possible - Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Moat, Engineered Plague, Leyline of the Void and its contemporaries. Honestly the only artifact that's really scary is Grafdigger's Cage. Cage should be answered by a couple EE's in the SB anyway though. Unless I'm missing something, I intend on leaving the artifact hate at home.
EDIT: Also Faerie Macabre over Surgical Extraction IMO. Deathrite is awesome gravehate but if you're playing Surgical as an extra bullet make the switch. Faerie can potentially provide a clock if deathrite has everything under control, plus it is instant speed as well. Sure you don't get the other copies but in MU's like Reanimator or Dredge getting that second card already in graveyard can be more valuable.
EDIT2: @Krimson Viper - You said earlier Abrupt Decay outclasses Golgari Charm but that is irrelevant. The question isn't Golgari Charm or Abrupt Decay, its Golgari Charm or Zealous Persecution? Abrupt Decay has its slots, I'm wondering whether or not Golgari Charm shores up certain other MU's i.e. Maverick or other tribal.
Then I would choose Zealous Persecution as it can still wipe my enemy's board, but I get to swing with more power. The 2 mass wipes we are playing against tucks them or can't be countered. Tough to say which is played more, so, me personally, I'd rather swing with a larger stick then sac to my enemy's done to end the game quicker before Supreme lands.
Chalice at 1 is game breaking. No Gravecrawler, no Feeder, no Looting, no Bolt, no Therapy, no Thoughtseize, no Shaman and the list goes on. Not to mention Batterskull.
I can certainly try, but the deck requires a LOT of thinking, so there is no given situation that encompasses plays. The general idea of this deck is to kill their hand while keeping pressure going, which is why Cabal and Sculler is so good in this deck. You don't just drop creatures and beat, this isn't a Zoo deck, you're going to just run out of gas and get your opponent is going to have better threats. Maximizing damage through critical and incremental plays. View the videos in the I second post of this thread. They're really informative if you catch what and why.
I like Ichorid, but he removes your better recur guys and Rotting Rats was removed for Tidehollow Sculler which is a better discard and a bigger beater and still enables Gravecrawler. The large problem with Lotleth is that he is owned by PtE and StP. It is a terrible excuse, but the other excuse not to use him is he makes the deck just way to grave dependent and inconsistent, this deck should be able to operate without worrying too much about the 'yard and hit the face by saccing, recur and grind out if its a long game. You also are not running enough creatures and the CA created by Looting is epic. Lotleth doesn't come back when he hits the grave, as well. Nether Traitor is a good discussion though. That should be tried out.
This deck is just not our strategy at all. It is trying to be hyperaggro, and doesn't warrant any sort of consistency. Barely any disruption, which allows this deck go be competitive, and has better SB choices from W. The deck you've presented is known as Living Dead Girl, known for not blocking and just going in the red with everything.
I should add this, I haven't played with Lotleth, so I could be outright wrong. I'd target punch holes before I work it, but I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but I highly believe I'm correct.
I still feel the white options outclass the Troll though in Legacy. More playtesting has revealed that Humility is just bonkers. It's an auto-win against the non-blue decks. O-Ring remains a strong weapon against Know and Tell and general threats. Leyline of Sanctity helps us against Belcher and ANT (matchups that are almost invariably fatal for Living Dead Girl)
In the end, I'd just rather cast Sculler on turn 2 than a Troll. Better to take that Swords or other nasty threat out of their hand.
Yeah, that was pretty much what I ended up with. You get better against fair decks, and worse against unfair ones. Mostly, I just think it's a fun variant worth playing a few times just for a change of pace.
I agree that tidehollow is exponentially better than rotting rats, but it just isn't worth splashing a fourth color to me. Wasteland runs rampant in my meta and having such a delicate mana base was making things too difficult. I have found green to be far superior; at least in my testing.
Lotleth troll is surprisingly good actually. Any creature you could name in this deck is "owned by path", so I don't think thats a viable reason to excuse him. He provides an additional discard outlet for recur-creatures I don't want to hard cast at absolute worst, and a target for removal as well. I'd rather have him pathed than a Gravecrawler honestly. I never end up investing too much to him anyways.
Ichorid I only play as a 2-of for the exact reason you mentioned. He does however help when there is a Lotleth, or carrion feeder in the yard. I've also found that in a pinch it helps having that additional hasty attacker
Just my two cents
Josh
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Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn
Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierachnot activeJund Tarmolessnot activeDnT White
Living End Jund
Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpostnot activeU/W Titan Controlnot activeMardu Nahiri/Controlnot activeIn zombardment we rely on Gravecrawler's and Bloodghast's ability to recur, and in that functionality pump, ping, or play spells. Lotleth Troll at face value seems great, "I can pitch Gravecrawler or Bloodghast, then just fish them back up." That is the best case scenario with him. However, that means you have 8 "pump" spells in your deck that don't completely lose their utility upon feeding. The other creatures you're running immediately become a null factor if pitched. So they are either utility/swingers or a pump. In the case of Carrion Feeder, your creatures are the holy trinity (Util/Pump/Swing).
I think for Lotleth Troll to be a contender with Carrion Feeder and earn a spot in Zombardment, you'd need to figure out a list with Oversold Cemetery or a Life From the Loam/Dryad Arbor interaction.
Afterthought: Volrath's Stronghold, Veilborn Ghoul, Squee, Goblin Nabob. Stronghold is probably the best card here, followed in tow by Squee. Squee is a great Faithless Looting target though.
I can make signatures
On the other hand, BRW Zombies runs Tidehollow Sculler and Lingering Souls, two very underrated cards that are both highly synergistic and powerful draws even in the late game. (Sculler is weaker in the late game, but still relevant given his ability to help recur Gravecrawler). If you've played Zombardment longer than a few days, you already understand how powerful Lingering Souls is. If left unanswered, four spirit tokens usually get there. They become way better when combined with Carrion Feeder or Bombardment.
I'd also like to quickly weigh in on the Troll debate. The utility Carrion Feeder grants is crucial for the UW Miracles MU other than that I don't see how Feeder is better. People keep making the argument that Troll can't save other creatures from PtE and StP but the point is moot. If I have a couple Gravecrawlers or Bloodghasts out, they were definitely pitched to Troll already, meaning Troll is probably a 4/3. Nobody when given the opportunity is going to Path or Swords a 2/1 that can't block over an active Troll that can trample and regenerate. Place Carrion Feeder in the same setting, the opponent will most likely remove the Feeder knowing the obvious sac in response trick. The downside to troll is being massively overstated. Also the fact that Troll can reliably block and regenerate is nothing to scoff at. The RBW version of the deck relies so heavily on discard if something does hit the battlefield there is almost no defense against it, Troll solves that problem. SB is going to have to answer the UW Miracle menace maybe something like Scapegoat? The deck plays different absolutely and becomes more midrange relying more heavily on Deathrite Shaman, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Personally that's the game style I prefer to play, so I'll be testing a Junk list and post results here.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin Lord of Innistrad
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls
4 Grisly Salvage
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
22 Land may be a little low so I might jump to 23 depending, if I do I'll probably just cut one of the 1 of's. Also I'm not sure if it's too cute but I may try testing some number of Life from the Loams with a Dryad Arbor (free troll food).
Creatures
4x Gravecrawler
4x Bloodghast
4x Blood Artist
4x Rotting Rats
4x Carrion Feeder
Spells:
3x Faithless Looting
1x Darkblast
2x Tragic Slip
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Lightning Bolt
Enchantment/Artifact
1x Crucible of worlds
2x Phyrexian Altar
3x Goblin Bombardment
Land:
6x Fetches
4x Badlands
4x Wasteland
5x Swamps
1x Mountain
A couple of different cards are fairly effective in the build. Crucible allows you to landfall for Bloodghast as well as bring back wastelands to wreck your opponents mana base. Phyrexian Altar allows you to combo out with Blood Artist and Gravecrawler. Faithless Looting allows you to dig and to get crawler or bloodghast in the GY.
Tragic Slip is a beast in this deck and the Darkblast allows you to dig for the creatures you want to recur. Rats can be very good as well being sacrificed and then brought back again. I feel like this deck doesn't have issues with mana/wasteland, Has a ton of disruption in discard and its own wastelands to stop their top decking as well. Just my thoughts
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One thing I would like to offer is my opinion on the mana base that seems to be giving you the notion that spreading into 3 or 4 colors is less advantageous. In my personal list I run 8 fetch lands, all of which can fish up my Swamps, Badlands, Bayous, or Scrublands. The great thing about this type of mana base is this: A fetch can grab you whatever the situation calls for. If you don't have the fetch, it shouldn't matter too much because most of your spells are black spells to begin with. When you throw in 8 fetches and Deathrite into the whole equation, there have been only a handful of times on turn 2 or 3 where I wish I had a bayou or something.
Yes, in a deck where most of your power comes from one or two VERY specific cards/colors you may be tempted to try and align your deck to those types of cards, but by adding in the green and white spells you add toolbox and sideboard options that make the deck that much more powerful and versatile. White gives Lingering Souls and Obilivion Ring. Green gives my Deathrite Shaman the ability to hate away targets from Reanimator, or even Dredge. Green also gives me one of the best removal spells the deck has access to which is Abrupt Decay. This card is early, it's tempo momentum, it puts you ahead of decsk that would otherwise out pace you. We don't care about the combo into fatties, we can control hands. Abrupt Decay drops Delver, Jitte, SfM, Goyf, KotR.
To end this simply, spreading out into 4 colors does not hurt you at all, it makes you stronger and more potent as a whole.
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Also cards I'd like to discuss for possible sideboard use - Mentor of the Meek, Golgari Charm, Rakdos Charm.
Maybe Bob is just better, but I think with the recursive nature of the deck it's worth discussing. Bloodghast makes Mentor insanely good as you can fetch EOT and use the land fetched to draw allowing for card advantage without tying down any mana for your turn.
Golgari Charm has the potential to replace zealous persecution in the sideboard, you lose the chance for an alpha against tribal, but you gain enchantment hate which is really important considering Blood Moon and E plague just end us. Plus the regenerate has an off chance of being relevant.
Rakdos Charm could fill in a couple of grave hate slots. Again the added hate against artifacts is awesome, and the 1 damage ability gives adittional reach in the off chance you don't find a Blood Artist or Goblin Bombardment. Plus the Bombardment and Feeder allow us to sac all our creatures mitigating our damage received while maximizing output.
@biglow2: This deck seems like it has a greedy mana-base but really the deck plays muck more like a Bwrg deck rather than a BRWg if you get my drift. Also the addition of Deathrite Shaman greatly helps out against Wasteland. If you are not going full Brwg splashes then at least splash white as Tidehollow Sculler Lingering Souls and sideboard options like Humility and Oblivion Ring are essential to the plan.
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Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn
Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierachnot activeJund Tarmolessnot activeDnT White
Living End Jund
Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpostnot activeU/W Titan Controlnot activeMardu Nahiri/Controlnot activeYes, now we just need to find someone to run 2-4 copies of this card in their sideboard so that they can hose a deck that makes up at most 5% of any given open.
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Ancient Grudge. Please, whatever you do, don't run Dryad Arbor. The deck is more like BRw(g). I would much rather play Bob than Mentor because he is on color, free cards, and makes Shaman better by eating removal, and Shaman makes Bob better by eating removal.Well it's alway depend on your meta. In my current Local Game Store the Meta is mostly agrro or agrro combo with a so-so blue deck theme (from 10 players only 3-4 play blue). Surgical extraction is almost everywhere in SB and because almost half play dual land so 2 blood moon is ok. Nowadays the meta is shifted to tribal (heck we have player playing goblins, merfolks, knights, ally, vampire, zombie, elves)
My meta is lack of ANT, dredge, countertop, show and tell, infect, dragon stompy
@Krimson Viper
I think nowadays we need to play 1-2 basic plains with revoke existence to deal with Blood Moon
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Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn
Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierachnot activeJund Tarmolessnot activeDnT White
Living End Jund
Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpostnot activeU/W Titan Controlnot activeMardu Nahiri/Controlnot activeAbrupt Decay does do a great job solving these problems if we have the mana. Personally I don't like disenchant as much as Ray of Revelation. What artifacts are really a must answer for us? Chalice at 1 is annoying but by no means game breaking. Affinity has all but disappeared, and MUD stompy is a rare matchup. Personally I'd rather focus on hating as many enchantments as possible - Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Moat, Engineered Plague, Leyline of the Void and its contemporaries. Honestly the only artifact that's really scary is Grafdigger's Cage. Cage should be answered by a couple EE's in the SB anyway though. Unless I'm missing something, I intend on leaving the artifact hate at home.
EDIT: Also Faerie Macabre over Surgical Extraction IMO. Deathrite is awesome gravehate but if you're playing Surgical as an extra bullet make the switch. Faerie can potentially provide a clock if deathrite has everything under control, plus it is instant speed as well. Sure you don't get the other copies but in MU's like Reanimator or Dredge getting that second card already in graveyard can be more valuable.
EDIT2: @Krimson Viper - You said earlier Abrupt Decay outclasses Golgari Charm but that is irrelevant. The question isn't Golgari Charm or Abrupt Decay, its Golgari Charm or Zealous Persecution? Abrupt Decay has its slots, I'm wondering whether or not Golgari Charm shores up certain other MU's i.e. Maverick or other tribal.
Then I would choose Zealous Persecution as it can still wipe my enemy's board, but I get to swing with more power. The 2 mass wipes we are playing against tucks them or can't be countered. Tough to say which is played more, so, me personally, I'd rather swing with a larger stick then sac to my enemy's done to end the game quicker before Supreme lands.
Chalice at 1 is game breaking. No Gravecrawler, no Feeder, no Looting, no Bolt, no Therapy, no Thoughtseize, no Shaman and the list goes on. Not to mention Batterskull.