I haven't been impressed with blood artists. They only really kick in when you have a sac outlet and a ghast/crawler, and if I have both of those then I feel pretty comfortable against any fair deck. I'm trying dark confidants in their place.
A modern version is tough because you lose your sac effects that help to give you reach. At that point it becomes a beatdown deck with some hand disruption. Disciple of Bolas may be playable as a one of maybe? Kind of like how Nic Fit plays a one of Skeletal Scrying for reach this might play a One of Disciple perhaps?
I can vouch for this. I wen't 0-2 drop with a modern version of the deck. Replacing Bombardment with Blasting Station and using Viscera Seer for carrion feeder just does't work.
Deathrite Shaman was the missing piece to making this deck a powerhouse - it fixes your mana, provides reach, and does something useful in most matchups as most Legacy decks utilize the graveyard somehow.
I have experimented a lot with various builds of the deck and I am confident in my choices. Sam includes Thoughtseize, but I tried this for awhile and found it to be a dead draw in the late game in a lot of fair matchups. I still like Thoughtseize in metas where there is an unusually high percentage of unfair decks. Plus, Cabal Therapy is simply a better card overall (especially in this deck)
Some other differences include less Carrion Feeders and the inclusion of Lightning Bolt. This is reflective of more of an aggro-take on this deck, which I think is correct because you cannot afford to durdle in many of your matchups. Giving your opponent additional turns to draw a Terminus is not what you want to do. In many cases, you want to come out aggressive and beat them down to beneath 10 life, and then kill them with a combination of Bombardment, Shaman, Bolts, and hasty Bloodghasts.
I also included Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and Mutavault in the manabase. Urborg is good because it fixes both Mutavault and Undiscovered Paradise (allowing them to tap for black with no drawback). Mutavault is good because it's a Zombie, a man-land, and something they cannot bounce with Jace or kill with Supreme Verdict.
Main deck Zealous Persecution is stronger than it looks. It is amazing in the Maverick and RUG Delver matchups. Against combo decks, it can provide an extra few damage that can help you get there before they combo off. Two is the right number.
As for the sideboard, I wonder why more people don't run Humility. This deck abuses Humility very well with Bloodghast and Gravecrawler as well as pre-existing counters on Carrion Feeder. It comes in for Know and Tell (since it usually means GG in that matchup).
Some may wonder about the Engineered Explosives in the sideboard. Turns out that this deck can tap for all 5 colors of mana, although it would be rare that you could and would do that. It can easily get 4 colors though, and since your dudes often recur, destroying them is usually still value. EE is good against miracles (Entreat, Top, Jace) or any swarm strategy (Elves, Goblins)
Congratulations on winning! The more and more this deck hits the mainstream, the more the creativity becomes apparent. The inclusion of Humility is ingenious and I was wondering when people were going to include the Shaman.
On your deck specifically, why run 24 lands? By topping off at 3, you can get away with 22 lands, which could up your Bolt, Bombardment or Feeder count. Why Oblivion Ring instead of PtE or StP? Lots of Emrakul in your meta?
is there a 'trick' to using the scullers? NVM, i crystal keep'd it...
nice play, such a pro
This should actually be addressed, yes there is a trick. When the Sculler hits the field, in response to his trigger, you kill him to permanently exile the card. Same as with Oblivion Ring and Journey to Nowhere
It may not appear to be on the surface, but this deck is pretty mana-hungry. You want to hit your first three land drops and you want to hit 4 lands in most games. As you are aggressive, the additional mana allows you to dump your hand quickly. You almost always have "something to do" when you've played your gas - in the form of recurring Bloodghasts or Gravecrawlers, or activating a Shaman or two. Additional lands help here. Making two of them Mutavaults is even better.
I think the most important reason to run 24 lands is that you definitely don't want to miss your first three land drops. This allows you to develop quickly consistently.
I definitely tried Swords to Plowshares at one point, but allowing your opponent to gain life is counter to your strategy. The fact is that you don't need it. The only thing that Swords (or Path even) really helps you against is Goyf or a large Knight - and the Shaman helps you in both those scenarios. Even then, you have Lingering Souls for that and you're just faster than decks running Tarmogoyf. Goldfish with the list I posted and you'll see many turn 4 and 5 kills with gas left over.
O-Ring is just way better against the meta in general. You need to be able to stop more than just Emrakul. This deck is vulnerable to Countertop lock since it runs so many one-drops. If they get it online then the situation is usually grim. It's also good against Jace, equipment, Enchantress, and many other random situations where you just need to remove a permanent.
Oh, and I forgot to mention: Chalice of the Void. Ugh. Run O-Ring.
I lost 0 matches, only one game. I don't remember who it was, but I think it was the mono-blue Delver. I played against:
Mono-blue Delver
Omni-Tell
Maverick
RUG Delver
ID'ed into top 8
Top 8
Goblins
Omni-Tell
Split prize for finals, but he gave me the win and the invite.
Chalice of the Void is a difficult card for this deck and it struggles in those matchups where the opponent is running them more. Not impossible though. I think MUD is probably a difficult matchup for this reason. Lands was a toss-up before, I think Shaman really helps though. Shaman even helps Enchantress by getting around Solitary Confinement! (Can't wait to do this to an Enchantress player and watch the look of horror on their face)
Miracles can be hard if your opponent is a good player, but the newer cards and build strategies make the matchup a toss-up.
Your unfair matchups are all a toss-up, decidedly worse before sideboard. It certainly helps if you know how to play Cabal Therapy properly and know when to drop Tidehollow Sculler. You have four Leyline of Sanctity for ANT, Belcher and Burn.
With proper play, this is a strong deck that can win just about every matchup consistently. If more people played the deck, I feel it could reach Tier 1 status right up there with Maverick.
While Shaman was a great addition, if I really had to make an argument to good Legacy players to play this deck, it would be Faithless Looting.
Faithless Looting is the "Brainstorm" of this deck in that it enables you to gain a lot of card advantage. Often it is {R} - draw 3 or 4 cards. For example, if you pitch two cards to it that are graveyard playable, then you still get those two cards in addition to the 2 that you drew from Faithless Looting.
You almost always have something worth pitching, as you have Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, Cabal Therapy, Lingering Souls, and even additional copies of Faithless Looting.
On on a non-competitive side note (in that this is a pipe dream that doesn't happen too often), my favorite play is turn 2 loot and drop two Bloodghasts, then landfall them into play. That is {R} - Draw 2 cards and put 2 Bloodghasts into play. This is a very strong play and you don't lose many games when you make it.
As if that wasn't enough to convince you - the drops from Faithless Looting power up your Shaman regardless of what they are.
Your opponents will bring graveyard hate, but your deck is different from other graveyard-based decks (i.e. dredge) in that the graveyard is not the end-all be-all of your existence. You don't need the fancy mechanics to win as you can just aggro out with small creatures as they draw their hate instead of gas.
I've been goofing off and playtesting this deck on cockatrice, and wow the interactions and different moves you can make between cards is nuts. toss a land out, throw some creatures away, recur them back, sacrfice them to discard then recur them again, this deck really takes a brain to pilot.
Agreed. I keep winning with it, but each time is a mental exercise of 'oh crap I'm screwed, I'm screwed, wait I can sac and recur four times and then attack and sac the team for the win'.
I gave a jund colors build a try out, and putting in Lotleth Troll and Abrupt Decay solved a lot of problems (pitching a bloodghast to him is sweeet) and made the deck more aggressive, but I think losing lingering souls and tidehollow sculler hurt too much against things you couldn't outrace.
Glad this deck and thread is starting to gain some ground. Have you both been trying this out on Cockatrice? What decks have you been playing against and just steam roller over and what decks do you have trouble with?
So far this deck is hard against
- Storm
- Countertop Deck
- Veteran Explorer or Deck Ramp with big dude
- Graveyard hate
- Show and Tell in R1
But I'm say lots of people is impress with this deck
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
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Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierach not active Jund Tarmoless not active
DnT White
Living End Jund Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpost not active U/W Titan Control not active Mardu Nahiri/Control not active
I'm using "theCursedOne" List. I'm impressed how his deck working
But i'm still not sure for carion feeder. So far it's a useless creature all the time although in the paper it should be good
Deathrite shaman is insane btw. Zombardment is mid-range deck
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
------
Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierach not active Jund Tarmoless not active
DnT White
Living End Jund Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpost not active U/W Titan Control not active Mardu Nahiri/Control not active
Glad this deck and thread is starting to gain some ground. Have you both been trying this out on Cockatrice? What decks have you been playing against and just steam roller over and what decks do you have trouble with?
I actually lose a lot since I'm a terrible pilot for this deck. And Reanimator shuts this deck cold.
One Elesh Norn and it's over.
Also scavenging ooze is a problem if I don't get bombardment out quickly.
I think having some Dismembers or Tragic Slips would help out a lot.
But i'm still not sure for carion feeder. So far it's a useless creature all the time although in the paper it should be good
I agree that it is one of the weakest cards in the 75. However, I wouldn't replace it just because having a sacrifice outlet for your creatures is very good in certain cases (such as when you're facing down a Batterskull or a Jitte). It also increases the Zombie count for your Gravecrawlers.
I do side them out in a number of matches though, and could see a point in replacing them. Generally speaking they're strictly worse after game 1 because your opponent is going to board in graveyard hate.
And Reanimator shuts this deck cold.
If they're on the play and have the nuts game 1 the game is unwinnable.
However...
If you're on the play game 1 then you can drop double Therapy or Sculler before they go off and you can disable their combo.
Post board you have O-Ring and Humility to help combat their targets and Nihil Spellbomb (or your preferred anti-graveyard strategy) to beat their graveyard.
It's not your ideal matchup but very winnable.
Urborg Justice
It's definitely a blowout in the right situation. It might be worth trying as a 1-2 of in the sideboard. It seems especially good against decks that outswarm us (like Goblins and Elves). I wouldn't put it in the main as it's useless against combo.
Meekstone
I can see the value in running it, but I think it is too easy for opponents to deal with. Even Know and Tell can Wish into an alternate win-con that gets around it. Elves and Goblins destroy it. Miracles just wins with Jace.
In the days before Deathrite Shaman I could see running it just because the RUG Delver matchup was rough, but now I think the scales have tipped out of its favor.
also, touching on the Meekstone comment, I think it is better than bridge because I sometimes find myself out of cards, dragging the game out and losing.
*Coming to think about it, I guess I could be playing wrong. I should be saccing to Bombardment at that point...
"]Trade list[/URL]
I can vouch for this. I wen't 0-2 drop with a modern version of the deck. Replacing Bombardment with Blasting Station and using Viscera Seer for carrion feeder just does't work.
My Kamigawa cube.
My Mirage Cube
4 Bloodghast
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Goblin Bombardment
4 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
1 Tragic Slip
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Dark Confidant
1 Darkblast
2 Disenchant
2 Go for the Throat
2 Perish
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vindicate
nice play, such a pro
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
2x Carrion Feeder
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Bloodghast
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Goblin Bombardment
2x Zealous Persecution
4x Lingering Souls
4x Scrubland
1x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Swamp
2x Mutavault
1x Undiscovered Paradise
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Humility
2x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Zealous Persecution
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Nihil Spellbomb
I think I only lost a single game the entire day.
Deathrite Shaman was the missing piece to making this deck a powerhouse - it fixes your mana, provides reach, and does something useful in most matchups as most Legacy decks utilize the graveyard somehow.
I have experimented a lot with various builds of the deck and I am confident in my choices. Sam includes Thoughtseize, but I tried this for awhile and found it to be a dead draw in the late game in a lot of fair matchups. I still like Thoughtseize in metas where there is an unusually high percentage of unfair decks. Plus, Cabal Therapy is simply a better card overall (especially in this deck)
Some other differences include less Carrion Feeders and the inclusion of Lightning Bolt. This is reflective of more of an aggro-take on this deck, which I think is correct because you cannot afford to durdle in many of your matchups. Giving your opponent additional turns to draw a Terminus is not what you want to do. In many cases, you want to come out aggressive and beat them down to beneath 10 life, and then kill them with a combination of Bombardment, Shaman, Bolts, and hasty Bloodghasts.
I also included Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and Mutavault in the manabase. Urborg is good because it fixes both Mutavault and Undiscovered Paradise (allowing them to tap for black with no drawback). Mutavault is good because it's a Zombie, a man-land, and something they cannot bounce with Jace or kill with Supreme Verdict.
Main deck Zealous Persecution is stronger than it looks. It is amazing in the Maverick and RUG Delver matchups. Against combo decks, it can provide an extra few damage that can help you get there before they combo off. Two is the right number.
As for the sideboard, I wonder why more people don't run Humility. This deck abuses Humility very well with Bloodghast and Gravecrawler as well as pre-existing counters on Carrion Feeder. It comes in for Know and Tell (since it usually means GG in that matchup).
Some may wonder about the Engineered Explosives in the sideboard. Turns out that this deck can tap for all 5 colors of mana, although it would be rare that you could and would do that. It can easily get 4 colors though, and since your dudes often recur, destroying them is usually still value. EE is good against miracles (Entreat, Top, Jace) or any swarm strategy (Elves, Goblins)
On your deck specifically, why run 24 lands? By topping off at 3, you can get away with 22 lands, which could up your Bolt, Bombardment or Feeder count. Why Oblivion Ring instead of PtE or StP? Lots of Emrakul in your meta?
This should actually be addressed, yes there is a trick. When the Sculler hits the field, in response to his trigger, you kill him to permanently exile the card. Same as with Oblivion Ring and Journey to Nowhere
I think the most important reason to run 24 lands is that you definitely don't want to miss your first three land drops. This allows you to develop quickly consistently.
I definitely tried Swords to Plowshares at one point, but allowing your opponent to gain life is counter to your strategy. The fact is that you don't need it. The only thing that Swords (or Path even) really helps you against is Goyf or a large Knight - and the Shaman helps you in both those scenarios. Even then, you have Lingering Souls for that and you're just faster than decks running Tarmogoyf. Goldfish with the list I posted and you'll see many turn 4 and 5 kills with gas left over.
O-Ring is just way better against the meta in general. You need to be able to stop more than just Emrakul. This deck is vulnerable to Countertop lock since it runs so many one-drops. If they get it online then the situation is usually grim. It's also good against Jace, equipment, Enchantress, and many other random situations where you just need to remove a permanent.
Oh, and I forgot to mention: Chalice of the Void. Ugh. Run O-Ring.
Mono-blue Delver
Omni-Tell
Maverick
RUG Delver
ID'ed into top 8
Top 8
Goblins
Omni-Tell
Split prize for finals, but he gave me the win and the invite.
Chalice of the Void is a difficult card for this deck and it struggles in those matchups where the opponent is running them more. Not impossible though. I think MUD is probably a difficult matchup for this reason. Lands was a toss-up before, I think Shaman really helps though. Shaman even helps Enchantress by getting around Solitary Confinement! (Can't wait to do this to an Enchantress player and watch the look of horror on their face)
Miracles can be hard if your opponent is a good player, but the newer cards and build strategies make the matchup a toss-up.
Your unfair matchups are all a toss-up, decidedly worse before sideboard. It certainly helps if you know how to play Cabal Therapy properly and know when to drop Tidehollow Sculler. You have four Leyline of Sanctity for ANT, Belcher and Burn.
With proper play, this is a strong deck that can win just about every matchup consistently. If more people played the deck, I feel it could reach Tier 1 status right up there with Maverick.
Faithless Looting is the "Brainstorm" of this deck in that it enables you to gain a lot of card advantage. Often it is {R} - draw 3 or 4 cards. For example, if you pitch two cards to it that are graveyard playable, then you still get those two cards in addition to the 2 that you drew from Faithless Looting.
You almost always have something worth pitching, as you have Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, Cabal Therapy, Lingering Souls, and even additional copies of Faithless Looting.
On on a non-competitive side note (in that this is a pipe dream that doesn't happen too often), my favorite play is turn 2 loot and drop two Bloodghasts, then landfall them into play. That is {R} - Draw 2 cards and put 2 Bloodghasts into play. This is a very strong play and you don't lose many games when you make it.
As if that wasn't enough to convince you - the drops from Faithless Looting power up your Shaman regardless of what they are.
Your opponents will bring graveyard hate, but your deck is different from other graveyard-based decks (i.e. dredge) in that the graveyard is not the end-all be-all of your existence. You don't need the fancy mechanics to win as you can just aggro out with small creatures as they draw their hate instead of gas.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
I gave a jund colors build a try out, and putting in Lotleth Troll and Abrupt Decay solved a lot of problems (pitching a bloodghast to him is sweeet) and made the deck more aggressive, but I think losing lingering souls and tidehollow sculler hurt too much against things you couldn't outrace.
So far this deck is hard against
- Storm
- Countertop Deck
- Veteran Explorer or Deck Ramp with big dude
- Graveyard hate
- Show and Tell in R1
But I'm say lots of people is impress with this deck
------
Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn
Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierachnot activeJund Tarmolessnot activeDnT White
Living End Jund
Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpostnot activeU/W Titan Controlnot activeMardu Nahiri/Controlnot activeBut i'm still not sure for carion feeder. So far it's a useless creature all the time although in the paper it should be good
Deathrite shaman is insane btw. Zombardment is mid-range deck
------
Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn
Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierachnot activeJund Tarmolessnot activeDnT White
Living End Jund
Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpostnot activeU/W Titan Controlnot activeMardu Nahiri/Controlnot activeI actually lose a lot since I'm a terrible pilot for this deck. And Reanimator shuts this deck cold.
One Elesh Norn and it's over.
Also scavenging ooze is a problem if I don't get bombardment out quickly.
I think having some Dismembers or Tragic Slips would help out a lot.
urborg justice is a great find
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
I agree that it is one of the weakest cards in the 75. However, I wouldn't replace it just because having a sacrifice outlet for your creatures is very good in certain cases (such as when you're facing down a Batterskull or a Jitte). It also increases the Zombie count for your Gravecrawlers.
I do side them out in a number of matches though, and could see a point in replacing them. Generally speaking they're strictly worse after game 1 because your opponent is going to board in graveyard hate.
If they're on the play and have the nuts game 1 the game is unwinnable.
However...
If you're on the play game 1 then you can drop double Therapy or Sculler before they go off and you can disable their combo.
Post board you have O-Ring and Humility to help combat their targets and Nihil Spellbomb (or your preferred anti-graveyard strategy) to beat their graveyard.
It's not your ideal matchup but very winnable.
It's definitely a blowout in the right situation. It might be worth trying as a 1-2 of in the sideboard. It seems especially good against decks that outswarm us (like Goblins and Elves). I wouldn't put it in the main as it's useless against combo.
I can see the value in running it, but I think it is too easy for opponents to deal with. Even Know and Tell can Wish into an alternate win-con that gets around it. Elves and Goblins destroy it. Miracles just wins with Jace.
In the days before Deathrite Shaman I could see running it just because the RUG Delver matchup was rough, but now I think the scales have tipped out of its favor.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50322
also, touching on the Meekstone comment, I think it is better than bridge because I sometimes find myself out of cards, dragging the game out and losing.
*Coming to think about it, I guess I could be playing wrong. I should be saccing to Bombardment at that point...