do you think adding glacial chasm to your sideboard might be of use as you can wish for it to stall a fast aggro deck?
hhmmm. thats an interesting idea. On the one hand, you should be able to out race any aggro deck out there anyways, but on the other...that's not always going to be the case, and a turn one lackey is a HUGE problem for us. Chasm would be able to prevent a loss long enough for us to build up our combo, and it cant be countered. the life loss doesn't really matter to us either. i think it warrants testing, especially in the living wish builds. Interesting idea.
Well at first i must say that a living wish toolbox is realy cool and ive always loved the versatility it provides.
Being that said i also need to point that running living wish slows down the deck quite a bit and using the list above as an example i must also say that if you dont run lotus petal and or chrome mox it is also slower and we dont want that... ill explain.
If you have 3 nomads and 3 cephalid with 4 tutors and 4 wishes you are virtually running 11 of each of your outlets, oppossed to running 4 eladamris 4 tutors and 4 of each of the outlets, this make syou easier to just draw any of the creatures wich ideally you want to do thus making you go off a turn before.
I know this is simple logic but i had to point it out because one of the strongest features of this deck is speed and being able to win on turn 2 (or even 1 with a god hand) is something you should always aim at.
So using living wish for stability and a toolbox is great but im not sure if we should sacrifice a turn or two for it.
today im most likely playing a small tourney to test my build ill let you know how i went.
cheers.
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your sacrificing a turn to tutor even if you use eldamri's call, and worldly is denying you potential drawing of protection or resources.
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What would be better, 3 Lotus Petal or 3 AEther Vial? The Vial lets you play Illusionist or en-kor uncountered, but it's a bit of a dead draw sometimes. The Petal gives your more mana to play a Silence in addition to Daze or Pact, and against decks that don't play counterspells and few/no removal, you can go off much earlier.
it really depends on what else you have in the main board, but usually you would go with vial. especially if the count is kept at 3.
I've been perusing the "Established Legacy" thread for a deck I like since I'm starting to get into Legacy (currently playing T2). This deck seems like the most fun and fits my style. I pretty much understand everything in here except for the Emrakul/Thermopod infinite mana interaction. Can someone please explain how that all stacks?
Btw, I really like this deck. I looked at a lot of other decks before finding this one.
I've been perusing the "Established Legacy" thread for a deck I like since I'm starting to get into Legacy (currently playing T2). This deck seems like the most fun and fits my style. I pretty much understand everything in here except for the Emrakul/Thermopod infinite mana interaction. Can someone please explain how that all stacks?
Btw, I really like this deck. I looked at a lot of other decks before finding this one.
ok, once thermopod and kumano are on the feild, along with the milling creatures (cephalid and nomands) you mill yourself until you hit emrakul. Emrakul's graveyard shuffle ability is triggered, so when he hits the graveyard you respond to his trigger by continuing to mill yourself. this gets all of your narcomoebas onto the field. again, before allowing emrakul's ability to resolve you sacrifice the moebas to provide yourself with red mana off of thermopod. once they are dead, you allow emrakuls ability to resolve, which shuffles the moebas back into your deck. repeat for infinite mana and infinite damage off of kumano.
the thermopod combo looks a lot more fragile than the traditional win conditions, so i'm not a big fan of it.
As I look at it though your dealing with a lot of activated abilities and was wondering if necrotic ooze might have a place here just to tie them all together?
ooze can either be cast a turn sooner than thermopod (and just as much resurrected with dread return.) ooze can copy any fallen nomads or shamans. as you cycle through the deck and ooze is on the field it will gain both thermopod and master yamibushi's abilites thus making you not need to resurrect either of them again to pull off the finishing kill. Kumano, Master Yamabushi
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ok, once thermopod and kumano are on the feild, along with the milling creatures (cephalid and nomands) you mill yourself until you hit emrakul. Emrakul's graveyard shuffle ability is triggered, so when he hits the graveyard you respond to his trigger by continuing to mill yourself. this gets all of your narcomoebas onto the field. again, before allowing emrakul's ability to resolve you sacrifice the moebas to provide yourself with red mana off of thermopod. once they are dead, you allow emrakuls ability to resolve, which shuffles the moebas back into your deck. repeat for infinite mana and infinite damage off of kumano.
did i explain this well?
Yes, thank you. So you have to get Thermopod and Kumano on the field together? That seems like it would be hard to do even if one of them came on the field via Dread Return.
It isn't that hard to get both on the field when you have infinite creatures via narcomoeba sacking to DR something then narc gets shuffled back in via emrakul. You just need both dread returns to resolve getting back thermopod and kumano of course or some other way to deal damage directly. I'm not too keen on that combo though I would rather just go karmic guide, kiki jiki, sky hussar/pestermite infinite times to swing in although peacekeeper stops this plan moat doesn't because sky hussar and pestermite fly.
Glacial chasm isn't worth it. When it comes into play you must sack a land which makes it terrible. I would almost rather play tabernacle but that's weak without a mana denial suite like 43lands has.
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Yes, thank you. So you have to get Thermopod and Kumano on the field together? That seems like it would be hard to do even if one of them came on the field via Dread Return.
That's one diisadvantagge of running that win con, you have to run 2 dread redturn. Its not really any more difficult to do because you have infinite moebas, it just takes up moree space in the deck. However its nice to be able to win without attacking. Plus the whole combo goes off at instant speed, so even if they try to swords thermopod or kumano, you just respond by comboing out morre.
I think I would be partial to the Kiki-Jiki/Pestermite combo myself. Are there any fog effects that are common in Legacy?
Also knowing this deck's weaknesses, is there a standard sideboard? I would assume some of it would be based on local meta but I have yet to attend a Legacy event anywhere.
I think I would be partial to the Kiki-Jiki/Pestermite combo myself. Are there any fog effects that are common in Legacy?
Also knowing this deck's weaknesses, is there a standard sideboard? I would assume some of it would be based on local meta but I have yet to attend a Legacy event anywhere.
the only fog affect that you will ever see in legacy (that i can think of, and its not common at all anyways) is holy day when it gets slapped onto a scepter in mighty quin or other white control decks.
as far as the sideboard goes, ill tell you what i tell everyone, in fact, ill quote myself.
, well as with every deck in legacy, you should include at least 4 slots simply for graveyard hate, to even up your Lands.dec and dredge matchups. dredge sometimes uses pithing needle for antihate, so having an inconsistant number of each graveyard hate card makes it harder for them to answer. it should look something like this...
2 tormods crypt
1 nihil spellbomb
1 relic of progenitus
from here, you can decide to go with the basic sideboard that most decks would use, or you can choose to use a sideboard that completely changes the decks win condition in games 2 and 3 to a painter/grindestone kill, simply because in games 2 and 3 your opponent will be putting in their own graveyard hate.
option one would look like this...
1 way of revelation
2 Path to Exile
3 Echoing Truth
2 Meddling Mage
3 duress
duress helps against combo decks that are faster than your own, while way of revelation and echoing truth are there to handle things like humility and moat, or whatever else you may need them against. meddling mage is a silver bullet for whatever you need him for that can be tutored up with worldy tutor or eladamris call.
option 2 would look like this
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
1 Trinket Mage
2 echoing truth or duress
tricket mage can be found with worldly tutor and he finds the grindstone. servant can also be searched for. this is a sideboard meant to change the deck completely for games 2 and 3, so your opponents sided in hate is meaningless.
overall, you can change these up however you want, but these are what i would suggest. good luck with the deck!
oh, almost forgot, as far as comboing out when you dont have silence or pact, i usually dont like that, which is why i run the landbase with the poor mans duel lands instead of the rainbow land landbase. this way, i can run 4 daze as well in my main list. ups the protection a lot.
another interesting sideboard could look like this...
4 ravenous trap
1 Crippling Fatigue
2 way of revelation
3 Path to Exile/swords to plowshares depending on what the build
2 Meddling Mage
4 duress
yes progenitus and emrakul have both been used. however, they are not used to reset the deck so that you can draw into things, because if you reset the deck you want to win on the same turn. they are used to infinitely recycle the narcomoebas in the deck after they have been sacrificed to fuel different things.
This would work, though. If you reset with emrakul, you still have nomads to keep on instant-speed milling yourself to get combo pieces back in gy, so you can keep on going and if you mill a 3/4/5 mana spell, just don't let it resolve, but every time you hit a 1/2 mana spell, you let it resolve, remove the counters from ooze and keep on going until opponent is dead.
its actually pretty common if you look at the top 8's i have posted in the primer. i like the idea but i dont have the money to try it out at the moment. =)
I think i solved the necrotic ooze problem. you take Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and put him into the graveyard. now ooze will copy kiki's ability. since ooze isn't legendary he can target himself. also kiki's ability says the new tokens it makes have haste. so we can make a billion or however many ooze token copies which will have haste each new ooze token copies the original ooze to make the next token. now since these are all copy tokens of necrotic ooze. you put mogg fanatic in the graveyard and all these ooze tokens can now copy the fanatics "sacrifice for 1 damage to target opponent or creature" so that is potentially infinite damage pending on how many token copies you make/made.
the issue is the necrotic ooze card itself doesn't have haste unlike kiki jiki. so you have to wait a turn to go off. (aether vial ooze in at end of your opponents turn might be sufficient answer?)
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I think i solved the necrotic ooze problem. you take Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and put him into the graveyard. now ooze will copy kiki's ability. since ooze isn't legendary he can target himself. also kiki's ability says the new tokens it makes have haste. so we can make a billion or however many ooze token copies which will have haste each new ooze token copies the original ooze to make the next token. now since these are all copy tokens of necrotic ooze. you put mogg fanatic in the graveyard and all these ooze tokens can now copy the fanatics "sacrifice for 1 damage to target opponent or creature" so that is potentially infinite damage pending on how many token copies you make/made.
the issue is the necrotic ooze card itself doesn't have haste unlike kiki jiki. so you have to wait a turn to go off. (aether vial ooze in at end of your opponents turn might be sufficient answer?)
thats a pretty cool idea but i dont think its worth using unless you cant figure out a way to give the ooze haste simply because after you combo out, you are going to lose on your next turn, or at least risk your opponent drawing into an answer.
in a deck like this theres a few options i found that might be viable. like Dwarven Strike Force , Oxidda Daredevil (sac an aether vial possibly.) , Rage Weaver. these are viable because there abilities of course don't require tapping. strike force looks good cause a simple discard can also be a back up condition to get any combo pieces out of the hand if they were drawn. but most of this would enable ooze to go off once most of the library is dumped into the yard.
ressurect ooze with stuff similar to Apprentice Necromancer's ability is another option.
Hell-Bent Raider might make for a laugh for some anti swords action.
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Also they errattaed devouer's activated ability to have:
If ~ power is greater than 7, then sacrifice it. Which means anytime you fill a 4cc or bigger card you can't let the ability resolve or your ooze dies before you can ping with triskelion.
The way you get around this is the fact that all cards exiled, unless specifically stated otherwise, are exiled face-up. This means you can see if Ooze will go above 7 before the ability resolves, giving you time to exile another card in response Then use Trike's ability.
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Kiki-mite and Lord both require attack phases. This kill-con is instantaneous. Much more effective in my mind. Plus, Kiki-mite also has a haste problem.
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the discard at random is an option. spooky was saying haste would make the whole difference in the combo, so i spouted off dwarven strike force as a possibility, there's other options for haste.
but with one dread return for/casting of necrotic ooze, the kiki-ooze combo should be ready to go off, which is a feature i like about the combo.
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It doesn't have a haste problem. After you DRed the Guide, you return Kiki with it, and Kiki has haste. The Hussar/Mite copies also have haste.
While this new combo is good against moat/peacekeeper, I don't really like the 'discard at random' part.. You could just discard a Pact/Daze/FoW with that...
Also, quick rules question: does Proctor do anything against humility?
the discard at random part doesnt really matter imho. most players will try and stop you from using the en-kor and the illusionist. if they didnt counter or swords those guys, chances are your ooze is fine and anything in your hand is useless. you DO run into the problem of the possibility of not having any cards in hand when you go off though.
as for proctor and humility. ask anybody and they will tell you that humility is the bane of a judges existence. ill try the best i can but i cant promise you my answer is right, i believe proctor does nothing.
this quote from magiccards.com may help
"You apply power/toughness changing effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (a) effects from characteristic-defining abilities; (b) effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; (c) effects that modify power and/or toughness but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; (d) changes from counters; (e) effects that switch a creature's power and toughness. This card's effect is always applied in (b), which means that effects applied in sublayer (c), (d), or (e) will not be overwritten; they will be applied to the new value."
i know the rulings question you asked has nothing to do with damage, but i believe the stacks act the same. i could be wrong though...
because humility is a character defining ability, its affect hits before proctor can do anything, simply because proctor must have resolved and been on the field in order to try and activate his ability. i think i answered this right...
hhmmm. thats an interesting idea. On the one hand, you should be able to out race any aggro deck out there anyways, but on the other...that's not always going to be the case, and a turn one lackey is a HUGE problem for us. Chasm would be able to prevent a loss long enough for us to build up our combo, and it cant be countered. the life loss doesn't really matter to us either. i think it warrants testing, especially in the living wish builds. Interesting idea.
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Well at first i must say that a living wish toolbox is realy cool and ive always loved the versatility it provides.
Being that said i also need to point that running living wish slows down the deck quite a bit and using the list above as an example i must also say that if you dont run lotus petal and or chrome mox it is also slower and we dont want that... ill explain.
If you have 3 nomads and 3 cephalid with 4 tutors and 4 wishes you are virtually running 11 of each of your outlets, oppossed to running 4 eladamris 4 tutors and 4 of each of the outlets, this make syou easier to just draw any of the creatures wich ideally you want to do thus making you go off a turn before.
I know this is simple logic but i had to point it out because one of the strongest features of this deck is speed and being able to win on turn 2 (or even 1 with a god hand) is something you should always aim at.
So using living wish for stability and a toolbox is great but im not sure if we should sacrifice a turn or two for it.
today im most likely playing a small tourney to test my build ill let you know how i went.
cheers.
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it really depends on what else you have in the main board, but usually you would go with vial. especially if the count is kept at 3.
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Btw, I really like this deck. I looked at a lot of other decks before finding this one.
ok, once thermopod and kumano are on the feild, along with the milling creatures (cephalid and nomands) you mill yourself until you hit emrakul. Emrakul's graveyard shuffle ability is triggered, so when he hits the graveyard you respond to his trigger by continuing to mill yourself. this gets all of your narcomoebas onto the field. again, before allowing emrakul's ability to resolve you sacrifice the moebas to provide yourself with red mana off of thermopod. once they are dead, you allow emrakuls ability to resolve, which shuffles the moebas back into your deck. repeat for infinite mana and infinite damage off of kumano.
did i explain this well?
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As I look at it though your dealing with a lot of activated abilities and was wondering if necrotic ooze might have a place here just to tie them all together?
ooze can either be cast a turn sooner than thermopod (and just as much resurrected with dread return.) ooze can copy any fallen nomads or shamans. as you cycle through the deck and ooze is on the field it will gain both thermopod and master yamibushi's abilites thus making you not need to resurrect either of them again to pull off the finishing kill.
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
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Yes, thank you. So you have to get Thermopod and Kumano on the field together? That seems like it would be hard to do even if one of them came on the field via Dread Return.
Glacial chasm isn't worth it. When it comes into play you must sack a land which makes it terrible. I would almost rather play tabernacle but that's weak without a mana denial suite like 43lands has.
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That's one diisadvantagge of running that win con, you have to run 2 dread redturn. Its not really any more difficult to do because you have infinite moebas, it just takes up moree space in the deck. However its nice to be able to win without attacking. Plus the whole combo goes off at instant speed, so even if they try to swords thermopod or kumano, you just respond by comboing out morre.
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Also knowing this deck's weaknesses, is there a standard sideboard? I would assume some of it would be based on local meta but I have yet to attend a Legacy event anywhere.
the only fog affect that you will ever see in legacy (that i can think of, and its not common at all anyways) is holy day when it gets slapped onto a scepter in mighty quin or other white control decks.
as far as the sideboard goes, ill tell you what i tell everyone, in fact, ill quote myself.
another interesting sideboard could look like this...
4 ravenous trap
1 Crippling Fatigue
2 way of revelation
3 Path to Exile/swords to plowshares depending on what the build
2 Meddling Mage
4 duress
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This would work, though. If you reset with emrakul, you still have nomads to keep on instant-speed milling yourself to get combo pieces back in gy, so you can keep on going and if you mill a 3/4/5 mana spell, just don't let it resolve, but every time you hit a 1/2 mana spell, you let it resolve, remove the counters from ooze and keep on going until opponent is dead.
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also, good news for those of you that run the deck, we have a first place finisher. here is the link to the list and the top 8.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5505&iddeck=39865
here is the list that was run. It was traditional Sutured ghoul win con with goyf instead of lord of extinction.
1 Shaman en-Kor
1 Stern Proctor
1 Sutured Ghoul
3 Narcomoeba
4 Cephalid Illusionist
4 Nomads en-Kor
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants [15]
1 Misdirection
2 Eladamri's Call
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Worldly Tutor
1 Dread Return
1 Ponder
2 Cabal Therapy
Enchantments [1]
1 Dragon Breath
Artifacts [4]
4 Aether Vial
Lands [18]
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
1 Dark Confidant
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Trinket Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Gilded Drake
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its actually pretty common if you look at the top 8's i have posted in the primer. i like the idea but i dont have the money to try it out at the moment. =)
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the issue is the necrotic ooze card itself doesn't have haste unlike kiki jiki. so you have to wait a turn to go off.
(aether vial ooze in at end of your opponents turn might be sufficient answer?)
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thats a pretty cool idea but i dont think its worth using unless you cant figure out a way to give the ooze haste simply because after you combo out, you are going to lose on your next turn, or at least risk your opponent drawing into an answer.
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ressurect ooze with stuff similar to Apprentice Necromancer's ability is another option.
a dual land mountain and anger is viable as well.
Hell-Bent Raider might make for a laugh for some anti swords action.
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Don't you need to discard for each Ooze copy?
Good find.
The way you get around this is the fact that all cards exiled, unless specifically stated otherwise, are exiled face-up. This means you can see if Ooze will go above 7 before the ability resolves, giving you time to exile another card in response Then use Trike's ability.
Good point. This means you only need this as your creature base:
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Dwarven Strike Force
1 Mogg Fanatic
That's still one card more than Kiki-Mite or Sutured-Lord (both can be done with 3).
but with one dread return for/casting of necrotic ooze, the kiki-ooze combo should be ready to go off, which is a feature i like about the combo.
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the discard at random part doesnt really matter imho. most players will try and stop you from using the en-kor and the illusionist. if they didnt counter or swords those guys, chances are your ooze is fine and anything in your hand is useless. you DO run into the problem of the possibility of not having any cards in hand when you go off though.
as for proctor and humility. ask anybody and they will tell you that humility is the bane of a judges existence. ill try the best i can but i cant promise you my answer is right, i believe proctor does nothing.
this quote from magiccards.com may help
"You apply power/toughness changing effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (a) effects from characteristic-defining abilities; (b) effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; (c) effects that modify power and/or toughness but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; (d) changes from counters; (e) effects that switch a creature's power and toughness. This card's effect is always applied in (b), which means that effects applied in sublayer (c), (d), or (e) will not be overwritten; they will be applied to the new value."
i know the rulings question you asked has nothing to do with damage, but i believe the stacks act the same. i could be wrong though...
because humility is a character defining ability, its affect hits before proctor can do anything, simply because proctor must have resolved and been on the field in order to try and activate his ability. i think i answered this right...
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