but you'll probably will get problems against Emrakul or am I missing something?
The combo does not mill them, it forces them to draw cards. Eventually, even through the discard effect of the coliseum, there will be a game state that says they draw an emrakul when it is the last or second to last card in their deck when there are still draws that need to happen. This makes it a game loss for them. It's kind of like a lethal blue suns zeneith. Even though its not their turn they still lose because they failed to draw a card they were supposed to draw.
Really, that's what the laboratory maniac is for. Extirpate can't touch that particular win condition. Maniac really is nearly impossible to stop. The only way they CAN stop it is to counter it with something that exiles, or counter it with a regular counterspell and extirpate it right after it hits the gy. Granted, when you put maniac in, you still play coliseum, so they have to hit both.
Game 1, I don't really expect them to have extirpate. And when you start decking them with cephalid coliseum, you'll already have your deck in your hand and on the board. You can just let whatever it is be countered, and bauble it back into your hand. If you need to play around something, you can continue at instant speed. And, I run a singleton abeyance maindeck as some extra insurance against people that may have instant speed hosers lying in wait at the bottom of their stack.
I don't like wish packages, because they don't make your cards resilient to exile effects like they used to (by being able to bring them back with cunning wish).
It's an issue with it not being able to tap for 2 on turn 1 AND 2 or 2 AND 3. You want to see city in your opening grip as much as possible, this is how how you get turn 2 wins. When you FETCH lands with crop rotation, if you have another rotation in hand, city -> vein is a good plan if you have no other lands to sac to the 2nd rotation, or city -> dig if you need colored mana, or city -> coliseum/canopy if you need the draw. The point being, is that the deck tends to explode after the first and second sunrise anyway, so the beginning is where that 1-2 extra mana is needed.
City is also much better than ancient tomb, because simply playing another land lets you reuse it. This means it's usually in a good spot turn wise to get the most out of it.
The Chosen: Why would I do that when cephalid coliseum is both a wincon and reusable dig 3 deep for U? It becomes really useful later in the combo after you've used a few sunrises and they become more sparse in the deck. I could only see the need for protection in so far as against extirpate and angel's grace, you might get screwed. That's what Abeyance is for though. As long as you have that somewhere in the 60, you'll be able to win even if they do manage to get rid of coliseum early somehow. They'd have to have grace in hand on your combo turn.
Granted, if they do play grace, you can just play abeyance again on their upkeep, and kill them then...
You can go off earlier depending on your build, my storm build usually combos out turn 3-4 sometimes turn 2
Turn 3-4? Nice. That just about puts it at the same speed as Sac Land Tendrils.
And sorry for late reply. I've read the primer. The Egg combo feels a little too long for me though.. I guess it would take some effort and patience to learn this deck.
Very simple construction, good consistency, and city is now the only real money card in the deck. A full playset goes for just under 100.
The list above costs ~160.
+ SB it costs ~180.
Adding a 2nd wincon against disruption heavy decks might be a good idea, but for now just having maniac in the side has done alright.
No new thoughts on this deck, Blitz?
I was thinking hard about the Noxious Revivals... aren't Gitaxian Probes better IYO? How often do you use your Revivals?
Also, even to have a more budget-oriented SB, I'm thinking about ditching the Leylines) do not have 'em yet) and put
4 Silence
4 Mindbreak Trap (or Faerie Macabre, meta call)
4 Echoing Truth
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Nomad Stadium (open slot really but it might buy me some time)
I recommend for Budget concerns adding a Zuran Orb the life gain is relevant vs Burn and turning all your lands "on" when comboing is great, also turns Piranha Marsh into a kill con.
If budget is a concern you can also try Death Wish in the main and run 3-4 kill conditions in your board
City Of Traitors can also be substituted for Crystal Vein if needed
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Hi Fizzeler, I almost finished the main deck, the SB is supposed to be budget because I don't have money to buy a set of Leylines at least for now. Thanks anyway!
About Zuran Orb, most lands are sacced to full usage (Vein, Dig, Cephalid, Canopy) so I reckon it won't be that useful. Besides, we don't have Reshape to tutor it. And for burn I guess the Nomad Stadium can help me a bit.
Death wish is win-more, I guess. One wincon is enough or else the deck loses consistency...
I have sets of City and Vein already, thanks God!
Hi Fizzeler, I almost finished the main deck, the SB is supposed to be budget because I don't have money to buy a set of Leylines at least for now. Thanks anyway!
About Zuran Orb, most lands are sacced to full usage (Vein, Dig, Cephalid, Canopy) so I reckon it won't be that useful. Besides, we don't have Reshape to tutor it. And for burn I guess the Nomad Stadium can help me a bit.
Death wish is win-more, I guess. One wincon is enough or else the deck loses consistency...
I have sets of City and Vein already, thanks God!
You are welcome (I should probably update the primer) as for your last open slot have you considered Sunbeam Spellbomb?
WeaponX the card is very good with Lotus Bloom, but without it you don't really need an artifact tutor effect, unless you want to find Helm Of Awakening
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
You are welcome (I should probably update the primer) as for your last open slot have you considered Sunbeam Spellbomb?
I will test both Sunbeam Spellbomb and Nomad Stadium. The first is an egg but can't be tutored. The second doesn't draw anything but can be CropRotated. I tend to favor the land, given the Reshape-less build of this deck. After that, I will look for the Leylines as soon as I can. I still guess they're better, but hey, who knows? ;).
WeaponX the card is very good with Lotus Bloom, but without it you don't really need an artifact tutor effect, unless you want to find Helm Of Awakening
Yeah, the Legacy version of this deck was already discussed here. Transmute Artifact is a better version of Reshape. But the Cephalid version presented by Blitz uses less situational cards (Transmute Artifact is almost $100 a set to use on this deck only, no way for me).
What do you think of the KCI-Banefire build? I whipped up a version of it and I think I like it better. Skipping the tedious part of having to go through the deck to win is a plus too.
What do you think of the KCI-Banefire build? I whipped up a version of it and I think I like it better. Skipping the tedious part of having to go through the deck to win is a plus too.
I prefer the KCI-Shredder build (use it in Modern), but never thought of building a legacy version of it because of the uselessness of Transmute Artifact in any other deck in the Universe and I still prefer the Cephalid build but without thinking much a version (w/o SB) could be:
What do you think of the KCI-Banefire build? I whipped up a version of it and I think I like it better. Skipping the tedious part of having to go through the deck to win is a plus too.
Sounds great, and allows you to run artifact lands which is a huge plus
Codex Shredder is a must in a KCI build and in addition to Banefire I would add Tendrils Of Agony or Grapeshot
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MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
4 Reshape and Wargate because getting multiple Blooms is the surest way to win. No protection MD as I feel I need them only in Games 2 and 3. The 4 Edge of Autumn are the weakest cards in the deck, which might become something else.
Hi kicks_422, let me suggest you some things, in order of personal relevance:
- 14 lands is dangerous, considering also you use 8 2-cmc eggs. I'd run 16 lands, 8 of them being artifact lands to feed KCI. No Darksteel Citadel because you need basic lands to GQ and Wargate does not help.
- Edge of Autumn is ok-t-good on vanilla (Cifka) builds. And you must use more 1-cmc eggs and recurse Sunrise cards, so replace 'em with Conjurer's Baubles.
- In order to avoid Surgical Extraction effects, I recommend 2 different wincons in the deck. Better than that, one in the main deck and 1-2 (Laboratory Maniac is my choice) in SB.
- (Disclaimer: this is a legacy deck.) IMO, Wargate << Reshape < Transmute Artifact. So, I'd replace 4 Wargates and 4 Reshapes with 1-2 Reshapes and 4 Transmute Artifacts in the long term. But supposing you're on a budget, my suggestion will be ditch 2 Wargates. 6 Bloom tutors should be enough.
- 1 Mox Opal is a must to ramp you. Lotus Petals are very nice to have as well.
- I'll leave the SB for I'd run this: 4 bouncers, 1 alt wincon, 3-4 white protection, 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 2-3 open slots (meta call).
No new thoughts on this deck, Blitz?
I was thinking hard about the Noxious Revivals... aren't Gitaxian Probes better IYO? How often do you use your Revivals?
Also, even to have a more budget-oriented SB, I'm thinking about ditching the Leylines) do not have 'em yet) and put
4 Silence
4 Mindbreak Trap (or Faerie Macabre, meta call)
4 Echoing Truth
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Nomad Stadium (open slot really but it might buy me some time)
I know I'm late in responding, real life getting in the way.
But basically, to answer your first question, revivals just increase the sunrise count by 4 after the first sunrise is found. This isn't something we do in the modern build of eggs after the introduction of Reward, because in legacy we plan on comboing off on less and earlier with much more efficient mana sources which aren't as limited as Bloom and KCI. Revival, at a cost of only 2 life early on, fits that plan. To compare it to Probe doesn't make sense, revival nets you a used sunrise to the top of the deck without fail. Probe just replaces itself and gets you information (which is actually the more useful attribute in this case). So I use it every game. I'm in fact, relying it most of the time, even when it's just to get back other useful spells like rotation or SB cards that you need to reuse. It can also screw up other peoples GY based combos. Don't underestimate its utility =)
As for the other thing, The leylines spot is hard to fill if you face discard. Other than that, only suggestion i might make (if you have the card), is at least 1 chain of vapor to stand in for a truth, since it has some interesting utility when you use it on your own stuff if you are short ways to sac a used city/horizon/coliseum. You can use it on yourself first before using it on someone else, even multiple times if you have more than 1 land you need sacced before sunrising. The only other thing I would mention is that nomad stadium and bog are great in a version that plays crop rotation and wayfarer, but use zuran orb and relic/crypt/etc instead if you don't run rotation/wayfarer, respectively.
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The combo does not mill them, it forces them to draw cards. Eventually, even through the discard effect of the coliseum, there will be a game state that says they draw an emrakul when it is the last or second to last card in their deck when there are still draws that need to happen. This makes it a game loss for them. It's kind of like a lethal blue suns zeneith. Even though its not their turn they still lose because they failed to draw a card they were supposed to draw.
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Game 1, I don't really expect them to have extirpate. And when you start decking them with cephalid coliseum, you'll already have your deck in your hand and on the board. You can just let whatever it is be countered, and bauble it back into your hand. If you need to play around something, you can continue at instant speed. And, I run a singleton abeyance maindeck as some extra insurance against people that may have instant speed hosers lying in wait at the bottom of their stack.
I don't like wish packages, because they don't make your cards resilient to exile effects like they used to (by being able to bring them back with cunning wish).
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I know two card combos are avoidable here, but Zuran Orb ramps mid-combo while putting you out of burn range.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8947&iddeck=65367
I haven't played an "Eggs" combo deck before. Looks fun.
Is the combo turn always turn 4 and above? Or can it be done sooner?
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I never considered Piranha Marsh, good call on it
Zuran Orb is amazing however
You can also use Ad Nauseum as an engine to draw more cards
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
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Hermit Druid Combo:
Isn't Crystal Vein just better than City of Traitors since it can be repeatedly brought back into play?
City is also much better than ancient tomb, because simply playing another land lets you reuse it. This means it's usually in a good spot turn wise to get the most out of it.
The Chosen: Why would I do that when cephalid coliseum is both a wincon and reusable dig 3 deep for U? It becomes really useful later in the combo after you've used a few sunrises and they become more sparse in the deck. I could only see the need for protection in so far as against extirpate and angel's grace, you might get screwed. That's what Abeyance is for though. As long as you have that somewhere in the 60, you'll be able to win even if they do manage to get rid of coliseum early somehow. They'd have to have grace in hand on your combo turn.
Granted, if they do play grace, you can just play abeyance again on their upkeep, and kill them then...
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Turn 3-4? Nice. That just about puts it at the same speed as Sac Land Tendrils.
And sorry for late reply. I've read the primer. The Egg combo feels a little too long for me though.. I guess it would take some effort and patience to learn this deck.
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No new thoughts on this deck, Blitz?
I was thinking hard about the Noxious Revivals... aren't Gitaxian Probes better IYO? How often do you use your Revivals?
Also, even to have a more budget-oriented SB, I'm thinking about ditching the Leylines) do not have 'em yet) and put
4 Silence
4 Mindbreak Trap (or Faerie Macabre, meta call)
4 Echoing Truth
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Nomad Stadium (open slot really but it might buy me some time)
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
If budget is a concern you can also try Death Wish in the main and run 3-4 kill conditions in your board
City Of Traitors can also be substituted for Crystal Vein if needed
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
About Zuran Orb, most lands are sacced to full usage (Vein, Dig, Cephalid, Canopy) so I reckon it won't be that useful. Besides, we don't have Reshape to tutor it. And for burn I guess the Nomad Stadium can help me a bit.
Death wish is win-more, I guess. One wincon is enough or else the deck loses consistency...
I have sets of City and Vein already, thanks God!
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
You are welcome (I should probably update the primer) as for your last open slot have you considered Sunbeam Spellbomb?
WeaponX the card is very good with Lotus Bloom, but without it you don't really need an artifact tutor effect, unless you want to find Helm Of Awakening
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Yeah it fits as it is just a better Reshape
The entire deck can be built for relatively cheap, and is decently competitive, very good in a fair metagame
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
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Hermit Druid Combo:
I will test both Sunbeam Spellbomb and Nomad Stadium. The first is an egg but can't be tutored. The second doesn't draw anything but can be CropRotated. I tend to favor the land, given the Reshape-less build of this deck. After that, I will look for the Leylines as soon as I can. I still guess they're better, but hey, who knows? ;).
Yeah, the Legacy version of this deck was already discussed here. Transmute Artifact is a better version of Reshape. But the Cephalid version presented by Blitz uses less situational cards (Transmute Artifact is almost $100 a set to use on this deck only, no way for me).
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
I prefer the KCI-Shredder build (use it in Modern), but never thought of building a legacy version of it because of the uselessness of Transmute Artifact in any other deck in the Universe and I still prefer the Cephalid build but without thinking much a version (w/o SB) could be:
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Crystal Vein
1 Ancient Den
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Codex Shredder
Engine (8)
4 Second Sunrise
4 Faith's Reward
Eggs (18)
4 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
3 Skycloud Egg
3 Ichor Wellspring
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lotus Bloom
3 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Transmute Artifact
1 Mox Opal
2 Orim's Chant
Show yours, kicks_422!
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Sounds great, and allows you to run artifact lands which is a huge plus
Codex Shredder is a must in a KCI build and in addition to Banefire I would add Tendrils Of Agony or Grapeshot
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
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Hermit Druid Combo:
3 Island
4 Plains
3 Forest
4 Second Sunrise
4 Faith's Reward
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Wargate
4 Edge of Autumn
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Elsewhere Flask
2 Banefire
4 Reshape and Wargate because getting multiple Blooms is the surest way to win. No protection MD as I feel I need them only in Games 2 and 3. The 4 Edge of Autumn are the weakest cards in the deck, which might become something else.
- 14 lands is dangerous, considering also you use 8 2-cmc eggs. I'd run 16 lands, 8 of them being artifact lands to feed KCI. No Darksteel Citadel because you need basic lands to GQ and Wargate does not help.
- Edge of Autumn is ok-t-good on vanilla (Cifka) builds. And you must use more 1-cmc eggs and recurse Sunrise cards, so replace 'em with Conjurer's Baubles.
- In order to avoid Surgical Extraction effects, I recommend 2 different wincons in the deck. Better than that, one in the main deck and 1-2 (Laboratory Maniac is my choice) in SB.
- (Disclaimer: this is a legacy deck.) IMO, Wargate << Reshape < Transmute Artifact. So, I'd replace 4 Wargates and 4 Reshapes with 1-2 Reshapes and 4 Transmute Artifacts in the long term. But supposing you're on a budget, my suggestion will be ditch 2 Wargates. 6 Bloom tutors should be enough.
- 1 Mox Opal is a must to ramp you. Lotus Petals are very nice to have as well.
- I'll leave the SB for I'd run this: 4 bouncers, 1 alt wincon, 3-4 white protection, 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 2-3 open slots (meta call).
My tweaks for your deck:
- 2 Forest
- 3 Plains
- 4 Edge of Autumn
- 2 Wargate
- 1 Banefire
+ 4 Seat of the Synod
+ 2 Ancient Den
+ 1 Island
+ 4 Conjurer's Bauble
+ 1 Mox Opal
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
I know I'm late in responding, real life getting in the way.
But basically, to answer your first question, revivals just increase the sunrise count by 4 after the first sunrise is found. This isn't something we do in the modern build of eggs after the introduction of Reward, because in legacy we plan on comboing off on less and earlier with much more efficient mana sources which aren't as limited as Bloom and KCI. Revival, at a cost of only 2 life early on, fits that plan. To compare it to Probe doesn't make sense, revival nets you a used sunrise to the top of the deck without fail. Probe just replaces itself and gets you information (which is actually the more useful attribute in this case). So I use it every game. I'm in fact, relying it most of the time, even when it's just to get back other useful spells like rotation or SB cards that you need to reuse. It can also screw up other peoples GY based combos. Don't underestimate its utility =)
As for the other thing, The leylines spot is hard to fill if you face discard. Other than that, only suggestion i might make (if you have the card), is at least 1 chain of vapor to stand in for a truth, since it has some interesting utility when you use it on your own stuff if you are short ways to sac a used city/horizon/coliseum. You can use it on yourself first before using it on someone else, even multiple times if you have more than 1 land you need sacced before sunrising. The only other thing I would mention is that nomad stadium and bog are great in a version that plays crop rotation and wayfarer, but use zuran orb and relic/crypt/etc instead if you don't run rotation/wayfarer, respectively.
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