You've seen the "make the play" on CFB.com. I have my own situation. Keep in mind, I've played fewer than 50 matches of Legacy in my life and this is over 4-5 years. I'm not trying to make excuses, but my play is not based so much on the "correct" mathematical plays. I'm posting here because the Legacy forum seems dead and I know for a fact that I'll get more advice here.
I'm playing against the eventual winner of a 66 person Comp REL Legacy Staples tournament. He is on Sneak and Show with 2 Omniscience. I am on a list nearly identical to Reid Duke's True-Name Sultai. It is Round 3 and we're both 2-0. He is on the play and mulligans to 6.
My hand has Noble Hierarch, 3 land, Thoughtseize, Leovald, Emissary of Trest, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I can play a Noble Hierarch into turn 2 Leovald, but if he does Show and Tell earlier or the next turn, he just wins.
I decide to do turn 1 Thoughtseize, fearing the turn 2 Show and Tell. I see Griselbrand, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Lotus Petal, xxxx, and Volcanic Island. He had just done Ponder on turn 1 and left the cards on TOP of his library. I choose to take Griselbrand, fearing Show and Tell on top, which I can't beat. I figure if it's land, I can hopefully cast Leovald in time to diminish the effectiveness of Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
So, do I play Noble Hierarch into Leovald, then the Thoughtseize on turn 3? Do I cast Noble Hierarch on turn 1, then Thoughtseize on turn 2? Or do I do it the way I did? (Thoughtseize on turn 1)
I take Griselbrand, fearing the Show and Tell. He draws and plays City of Traitors, Lotus Petal, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Then he keeps up that card advantage until I do Leovald on turn 3. By that time, he found Force of Will. I didn't see enough Brainstorm type cards to dig for Force of Will and I lose handily. I played him for a fast hand and he didn't have one.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Always thoughtseize on 1 if you fear them just slaming the combo. What was the 5th card in his hand? If he mulled to 6 then went land ponder, draws 1 off of the ponder, he would have 5 cards in hand.
The other card was something like Preordain. That was exactly my reasoning for doing it in the first game, but I think I lost because I didn't take Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I tried to recover and came close, but he got there.
With this player, I fear it every time, but I needed to set up shop in the next game instead of preemptively using the Thoughtseize.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Preordain and a 2nd Griselbrand are completely different hands. Having redundant fattys forces you into a different gameplan.
Sorry, I actually can't remember the 5th card. It actually wasn't Griselbrand or else there would be no reason for me to take that from him. *brain fart I'm now trying to figure it out by elimination, but I'm pretty sure that it was not a land or mana source because I remembering thinking that he still needs to draw a land to play Jace, the Mind Sculptor 2 turns later with the Lotus Petal and that also gives me time to draw Force of Will. Maybe it was Spell Pierce?
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think taking grislebrand was the right play then. SnS is basically a combo deck that uses multiple 2 card combos that end up as A a fatty & B an enabler(in this case a way to cheat it into play). Pondering and leaving on top means he is happy with his next few draws. T1 Thoughtseize was your only way out of the top card was show and tell. Taking a part of their combo is usually correct.
It's proper to Thoughtseize on turn one against any combo deck, but I would have played Jace instead. It seems like he was durdling and very possibly had a counterspell and drawn it out. If it lands cool, if not, he's down two cards and you're probably clear for Leo. Jace is actually a card I would have sided out for more disruption though. What was your sideboard plan?
Well, i actually would have taken a mulligan vs show and tell with your hand. While thoughtsize is a good play turn one, you did have nothing else on him, neither a good clock nor further interaction.
If i had to keep the hand for whatever reason, i would have made the same play.
Also, there are other boards on the internet with good legacy sections. While i read the modern forum on this board, i use 2 others for legacy, which is my mainformat.
I agree with this. That hand simply didn't have enough business against a Show and Tell deck. For the hand you took the T1 Thoughtseize is always right (Since sometimes they can just wombo you if you don't have a FoW) but, again, just not a good enough hand to keep against SnT.
Well, i actually would have taken a mulligan vs show and tell with your hand. While thoughtsize is a good play turn one, you did have nothing else on him, neither a good clock nor further interaction.
If i had to keep the hand for whatever reason, i would have made the same play.
Also, there are other boards on the internet with good legacy sections. While i read the modern forum on this board, i use 2 others for legacy, which is my mainformat.
I agree with this. That hand simply didn't have enough business against a Show and Tell deck. For the hand you took the T1 Thoughtseize is always right (Since sometimes they can just wombo you if you don't have a FoW) but, again, just not a good enough hand to keep against SnT.
The deck I was playing is True-Name Sultai. Here's the list. It actually doesn't have much disruption, especially in game 1. It's meant to be a deck that goes above what other creature decks are trying to do. Combo decks, well, sort of crush it. So, I don't feel like there's any better hand I can get other than having both of my 2 main deck Thoughtseize in my opener and lands to play them, while also having some sort of pressure. Despite it not being a good matchup, I still want to play the best I can, for reasons.
It's proper to Thoughtseize on turn one against any combo deck, but I would have played Jace instead. It seems like he was durdling and very possibly had a counterspell and drawn it out. If it lands cool, if not, he's down two cards and you're probably clear for Leo. Jace is actually a card I would have sided out for more disruption though. What was your sideboard plan?
Here's what I think I sided.
In: 2 Pithing Needle, 1 Flusterstorm (I couldn't find my 2nd before the tournament and put in Vendilion Clique instead), 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Surgical Extraction, my 1 SB Thoughtseize to go up to 3, and 1 Painful Truths.
Out: 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Murderous Cut, 1 True-Name Nemesis, 3 Abrupt Decay, and 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
I think I sided something else out instead of True-Name Nemesis, but I literally can't remember what it was - maybe another Jace, the Mind Sculptor?
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I definitely would have kept all creatures in and brough in another Thoughtseize and the two Flusterstorms and a really big maybe on the Surgical. Jitte would be ok to keep in here in my opinion because it will build towards killing faster and it's another permanent to sacrifice to Emmy when it's dropped. Jace I would ditch because you're trying to just trying to disrupt and aggro out, similar to RUG Delver against S&T decks of old nemesis match ups.
The deck seems real soft to combo. Maybe take out that second Jitte for another Thoughtseize and take out the Murderous Cut for a fourth Daze, or even a Hymn in the main. I know the fourth Daze will slow you down just a bit dropping your three drops. Just some thoughts in case you get an increase of combo decks. You could even remove that Extraction for a Hymn in the side, total two in the seventy five.
Turn one thoughtseize is almost always right against combo. As for taking the Grizzlybear, it's hard to say without knowing what the xxxx card was. If it was another cantrip maybe I take the jace. If it's a land, I take the jace. What I'm saying here is that you were very afraid he'd combo off (for good reason) but ignoring the very real possibility of a Jace that you also couldn't recover from (no board presence of your own, and not enough threats in your hand).
In the op it says you're semi new to legacy. Welcome to the format.
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I'm playing against the eventual winner of a 66 person Comp REL Legacy Staples tournament. He is on Sneak and Show with 2 Omniscience. I am on a list nearly identical to Reid Duke's True-Name Sultai. It is Round 3 and we're both 2-0. He is on the play and mulligans to 6.
My hand has Noble Hierarch, 3 land, Thoughtseize, Leovald, Emissary of Trest, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I can play a Noble Hierarch into turn 2 Leovald, but if he does Show and Tell earlier or the next turn, he just wins.
I decide to do turn 1 Thoughtseize, fearing the turn 2 Show and Tell. I see Griselbrand, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Lotus Petal, xxxx, and Volcanic Island. He had just done Ponder on turn 1 and left the cards on TOP of his library. I choose to take Griselbrand, fearing Show and Tell on top, which I can't beat. I figure if it's land, I can hopefully cast Leovald in time to diminish the effectiveness of Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
So, do I play Noble Hierarch into Leovald, then the Thoughtseize on turn 3? Do I cast Noble Hierarch on turn 1, then Thoughtseize on turn 2? Or do I do it the way I did? (Thoughtseize on turn 1)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)With this player, I fear it every time, but I needed to set up shop in the next game instead of preemptively using the Thoughtseize.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Sorry, I actually can't remember the 5th card. It actually wasn't Griselbrand or else there would be no reason for me to take that from him. *brain fart I'm now trying to figure it out by elimination, but I'm pretty sure that it was not a land or mana source because I remembering thinking that he still needs to draw a land to play Jace, the Mind Sculptor 2 turns later with the Lotus Petal and that also gives me time to draw Force of Will. Maybe it was Spell Pierce?
Here's his list.
http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic/tourney/02_12_2017legacy.html#VidiantoWijaya
I'm pretty sure it was Spell Pierce.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I agree with this. That hand simply didn't have enough business against a Show and Tell deck. For the hand you took the T1 Thoughtseize is always right (Since sometimes they can just wombo you if you don't have a FoW) but, again, just not a good enough hand to keep against SnT.
Because he wanted a larger audience. The Legacy forum here is dead, if not on life support. He actually said that in one of his above posts.
The point was that it's in both forums now.
My bad. I just looked at the forum location and saw that it was in Legacy General.
The deck I was playing is True-Name Sultai. Here's the list. It actually doesn't have much disruption, especially in game 1. It's meant to be a deck that goes above what other creature decks are trying to do. Combo decks, well, sort of crush it. So, I don't feel like there's any better hand I can get other than having both of my 2 main deck Thoughtseize in my opener and lands to play them, while also having some sort of pressure. Despite it not being a good matchup, I still want to play the best I can, for reasons.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/542211#online
Here's what I think I sided.
In: 2 Pithing Needle, 1 Flusterstorm (I couldn't find my 2nd before the tournament and put in Vendilion Clique instead), 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Surgical Extraction, my 1 SB Thoughtseize to go up to 3, and 1 Painful Truths.
Out: 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Murderous Cut, 1 True-Name Nemesis, 3 Abrupt Decay, and 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
I think I sided something else out instead of True-Name Nemesis, but I literally can't remember what it was - maybe another Jace, the Mind Sculptor?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The deck seems real soft to combo. Maybe take out that second Jitte for another Thoughtseize and take out the Murderous Cut for a fourth Daze, or even a Hymn in the main. I know the fourth Daze will slow you down just a bit dropping your three drops. Just some thoughts in case you get an increase of combo decks. You could even remove that Extraction for a Hymn in the side, total two in the seventy five.
In the op it says you're semi new to legacy. Welcome to the format.