This question came up after a fairly intricate battle in the Top 4 of a recent event, with myself piloting Death and Taxes against an opposing Goblins player; the question being what the best Aether Vial deck is.
I've played Goblins a lot myself, but I've never played Merfolk. I've long since settled on Death and Taxes as my deck of choice, and not merely because I consider it the better of the Aether Vial decks. I do support that proposition, however, and here are my reasons.
The mana curve of DnT keeps the number of required Vial counters to 2 and 3, well below the 4 and 5 Goblins needs to function smoothly.
Although Merfolk has a lower creature curve in general, all of the Lords have a UU mana cost; this is a lot harder to hit if there isn't an active Vial.
Karakas is a colored-mana-producing land; it also serves non-mana-producing roles that Goblins does not match, Merfolk's Mutavault doesn't produce colored mana despite that deck's far greater need for colored mana.
DnT holds the middle ground between Merfolk and Goblins in terms of what it can do with excess mana while a Vial is in play. Goblins can only really play more creatures, while Merfolk can both attack and threaten countermagic; DnT has Stoneforge Mystic.
Whether there is a better Aether Vial deck than DnT is an open question; all I'll contend here is that neither Goblins nor Merfolk is that deck.
In Fish, the Vial does fills the important role of a beat-stick, letting you buff your Fish at the last moment to kill something or save them. Not elegant, but effective as hell. Also think about what the mana is kept open to do, stop you playing stuff. Counters with open mana are more scary that counters without mana.
In Goblins it offers a wide range of options, you can drop your "Toolbox" cards (Like Sharpy or Prospector) to fill in gaps in the deck, you can suddenly block with it, you can draw with it assuming you have the card needed to do so but in goblins the card is not that effective in your opponents turn. Most of the time anyway. You do not often get the chance to back up your play with anything that was not already on the table. (Gempalm is the exception.) But that's if you only look at the critter side, Golbins game plan is to control your mana. Port and Wastelands screw with your Mana Math while the goblin player gets away dropping things for nothing. The issue though is as the Vial ticks up... On the topic of Karakas, I have one in my Goblins, so do not think thats DnT only tec.
DnT has a deck full of tricks and gains much from the card too. I personally hate seeing a Mum dropped at the end of my turn. In this I think DnT has much to gain with the card. It helps the deck with all its little iterations. That's because most of the cards in the deck have either tap effects or ETB ones. This backs up well on the mirror of Goblins mana denial strategy or tricks with your own Karakas tricks... something I have learnt to hate.
Honestly tho, I feel like none of them are truly the best. Each of them use the card in a different way. One to let the player have mana open to control what you can play and buff what they have in play, one to have mana open to either play more critters off the powerful draw engine or lock down your mana and the last to control the battlefield with small but powerful effects. The best of these is going to be what sings to you more, because each has very strong lines of play that are quite different from the others.
The best aether vial deck (as in the deck that functions best with vial), is without a doubt goblins.
The best deck (in terms of raw power) out of those three (I may or may not be biased) is most definitely Merfolk.
However, each of them have their intangibles and weaknesses. For its curve, I think Merfolk has the best curve for vial
Dnt has the benefit of not being hindered too much by not having vial in hand.
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Dnt has the benefit of not being hindered too much by not having vial in hand.
That's just what I mean; is the best Aether Vial deck the one that gets the best use out of an active Aether Vial, or the one that can take full advantage of Vial without depending on it so heavily?
If I could make my deck selection with Vial automatically in the opening grip, I would choose Merfolk every time. Playing, and possibly even defending it, on turn 1, ever afterward sitting there with my untapped Island(s) whilst I passed the turn... that, I think, is something fundamentally more powerful than what these other decks use Vial for. Unfortunately there are plenty of hands that open with no Vial and not enough colored mana to play the creatures in hand.... or worse, the Vial gets dealt with and I'm left unable to cast my creatures. It's reminiscent of playing Sol lands + Chalice decks.
Goblins uses Vial to double mana production, flash critters in as combat tricks, and make critters uncounterable. It doesn't really get to use Vial as a combat trick to the extent that 'Folk does (by buffing guys), and it has to wait until 4 counters tick up before it can drop the best possible card (which, in my view, is Goblin Ringleader).
DnT has a curve only slightly above 'Folk, and it seems to me that there are more Vial tricks to be had with this deck than with Goblins. Goblins is going to plunk down dudes that bring out more dudes who bring out more dudes, and so on. DnT is going to bring out Stoneforge Mystic, Flickerwisp, and the dreaded Mangara of Corondor.
If I knew I wouldn't get to have an Aether Vial in my opening grip, I think the choice of DnT is more reasonable.
I'd say goblins but I'm biased in that's my go to legacy deck. vialing in a Stingscourger to bounce a marit lage or mogg war marshal to chump block and then still have two chumps is a better combat trick than simply giving a +1/+1 buff.
you forgot stingscourger as part of goblins outs against combo. but the problem with that is you cannot say one deck is better than another based solely on how it fares against combo.
you forgot stingscourger as part of goblins outs against combo. but the problem with that is you cannot say one deck is better than another based solely on how it fares against combo.
I think what he's saying is that they perform relatively evenly against tempo, midrange, and control strategies, so combo is the tiebreaker. And yes, Gobs is easily the worst of the three decks against combo.
How is Gobs against RUG? I would imagine that it has enough CA to beat Jund/BUG, although those decks could side Plague if they wanted to. D&T sometimes falls apart against the grindier midrange Goyf decks, but it also stomps all over RUG. And Folk is Folk.
All told, I think I like D&T best unless the field is dominated by Belcher, in which case you play Folk, or dominated by other "fair creature decks", in which case you play Gobs. But D&T has a slew of even matches, whereas other decks have some weaknesses to specific archetypes.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
As matter of fact, Goblins did so horribly against all the combos, it starts to splashes White for Thalia. That's how weak it is against combo. MD weapons against combo:
Prior to Thalia, the Goblins splash decks ran black for discard. Thorn of Amethyst were often found in the sb. I don't think applying new technology is a cry out of a decks weakness. That's the reason sideboards exist. It makes sense to use the better mouse trap when they make one.
How a vial deck fare against combo is a Huge Differentiation, if not the only indicator. You need to do your homework again, Stingscourger does nothing against Storm.
stop being dense. i hear karakas by itself does nothing against storm. it also doesnt mean storm is the only type of combo.
To think that its the only indicator shows you dont understand legacy. Being able to beat other aggro or control decks more consistently is pretty important and to say "meh they're close" is not an acceptable answer.
When you look at all the Vial decks, you have to examine how they fare against combo decks.
As matter of fact, Goblins did so horribly against all the combos, it starts to splashes White for Thalia. That's how weak it is against combo. MD weapons against combo:
stop being dense. i hear karakas by itself does nothing against storm. it also doesnt mean storm is the only type of combo.
To think that its the only indicator shows you dont understand legacy. Being able to beat other aggro or control decks more consistently is pretty important and to say "meh they're close" is not an acceptable answer.
lol @ taking his reply out of context.
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The deck's inherent technology, or design, is its reliance on SB against combo, unless it intends to MD it. When you compare Vial decks, that's the difference. If you want some defense against combo, run Merfolk/DnT, if you want CA like Ringleader, run Goblin.
its completely in context. he listed outs against combo without listing stingscouger because it doesn't do anything against storm even though it isnt the only type of combo. Yet he lists karakas as an out against combo by itself which it does nothing against storm. Are you following the thread?
Goblins weakness to Combo is widely known, this is what pushed up to splash white. It has helped us against combo while also keeping the core Mana denial and tutoring the deck is known for. It does happen to reduce some of Goblin Ringleader's effective power though but it's a trade off well worth making.
Goblins has the issue where by many of the decks more powerful strategies are now becoming increasingly outdated due to the lack of a good solid defence against newer decks that have come up. In this I do not mean we have no defence, I just mean our answers have turned into non goblin cards creating a situation whereby one finds themselves naming "Human" an a cavern is now not an uncommon situation. This has weakened us somewhat as our core is and has always been dropping Green men and fetching Green men.
Still I find the idea of Stinger not being useful against storm to be funny as hell. Of all the cards we run your going to name that one guy, that shores up other combo matches as being bad against one kind of combo. We do have other cards for that match. Be them humans we do have them. That's not to say we do not have in house hate for combo, only that our weakness are not something that the tribe has any real response for and the meta would eat us if we do not adapt.
But that's not the point here. Goblins match up best against Control, tend to match Aggro in speed and lose to Combo. You put your hate for combo in the side, deal with the fact that game one is a hard game to win and pull out your hate game two. Because you already have a above average match-up against 2 of the 3 categories in the "Legacy Trifecta", so why dilute your strengths to push against combo and thus weaken your other two strong match-ups?
Goblins are not often going to beat combo game one, but that's the name of the game. Nothing has a perfect match up against everything 100% of them time. Yes we lean on our sideboard to win against Combo, but hell, everyone leans on their sideboards to beat something. Be that Dredge, Burn or a Leyline to stop Pox making you mass discard. Every deck has a weakness, Goblins just happen to dislike Combo. Does not mean we can not do something about it with a touch of white.
I don't think it's that simple (regarding the comment 2 above about Goblins), personally.
Goblins does not have the same pass against fair decks that it had years ago, when it was the undisputed king of Legacy.
I played Goblins for a long time, and loved the deck, but ultimately it wasn't the one for me and we parted ways. Other players stick with Goblins for a long time, and become truly sick at it. I've met Max Tietze. I've seen him play. I talked about this very topic with him, and he wouldn't venture an off-hand opinion at the time. I've also spent time with Jon Ashcroft and seen him play Goblins as well. These gentlemen are both SCG top-8ers whom I respect very much. I mention all this only because I don't wish it to be perceived as disrespect (towards Goblins or the people who play it) or inexperience when I tentatively claim that Death and Taxes is, at least by a marginal amount, both the better Aether Vial deck and the better deck generally.
That's not actually saying all that much, because to my way of looking at things, Death and Taxes is basically a white Goblins deck. The cards don't correspond 1-to-1, obviously, otherwise this wouldn't be much of a revelation, but if we look beyond the traditional defining features of Goblins, there's a lot that the decks have in common. DnT doesn't have the Goblin Lackey free win machine, true, but it does have Mother of Runes: which eats removal with near-equal regularity. There isn't any source of card advantage in DnT to match Goblin Ringleader, but there's virtual card advantage in Umezawa's Jitte and Mangara of Corondor. Aether Vial is not the only element these decks have in common. There is a lot more than is commonly credited.
I don't think you can simply say one is 'more powerful' than another as they all have different favoured matchups and weak matchups. It all completely depends on the meta of what you're going to encounter as to which I would prefer to have at the given time. Looking at top result postings over the last couple of years, this is the data I came across (These numbers are, since 5/5/10, those individuals that have either top 8'd an event of ~250+ individuals OR took 1st at a GPT):
Merfolk: 42
Goblins: 35
D&T: 8
Based on this data you would say that Merfolk came out on top, but that isn't fair to say since I would suggest that more people run this deck since the only expensive cards in it are Legacy staples that are run across many different decks and it's the cheapest of the three decks to run. I personally run Gobbos and Merfolk and I've found that I prefer to play Merfolk in an unknown meta, but I'm not as good at Gobbos either, so that's again unfair to say. Personally, I see it this way:
Merfolk has the early game upper hand on these two. It can interact G1 T1 and constantly interact throughout the game regardless of having mana/vial up or not.
Goblins has the midgame with an explosive toolkit that can't be handled by many decks and sideboard options that can bring it into contention with other combo/control decks that it would otherwise struggle with.
D&T has the long game with a toolbox that will hard-lock down opponents to do exactly as they please.
Choose accordingly.
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I've played Goblins a lot myself, but I've never played Merfolk. I've long since settled on Death and Taxes as my deck of choice, and not merely because I consider it the better of the Aether Vial decks. I do support that proposition, however, and here are my reasons.
Whether there is a better Aether Vial deck than DnT is an open question; all I'll contend here is that neither Goblins nor Merfolk is that deck.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
In Goblins it offers a wide range of options, you can drop your "Toolbox" cards (Like Sharpy or Prospector) to fill in gaps in the deck, you can suddenly block with it, you can draw with it assuming you have the card needed to do so but in goblins the card is not that effective in your opponents turn. Most of the time anyway. You do not often get the chance to back up your play with anything that was not already on the table. (Gempalm is the exception.) But that's if you only look at the critter side, Golbins game plan is to control your mana. Port and Wastelands screw with your Mana Math while the goblin player gets away dropping things for nothing. The issue though is as the Vial ticks up... On the topic of Karakas, I have one in my Goblins, so do not think thats DnT only tec.
DnT has a deck full of tricks and gains much from the card too. I personally hate seeing a Mum dropped at the end of my turn. In this I think DnT has much to gain with the card. It helps the deck with all its little iterations. That's because most of the cards in the deck have either tap effects or ETB ones. This backs up well on the mirror of Goblins mana denial strategy or tricks with your own Karakas tricks... something I have learnt to hate.
Honestly tho, I feel like none of them are truly the best. Each of them use the card in a different way. One to let the player have mana open to control what you can play and buff what they have in play, one to have mana open to either play more critters off the powerful draw engine or lock down your mana and the last to control the battlefield with small but powerful effects. The best of these is going to be what sings to you more, because each has very strong lines of play that are quite different from the others.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
The best deck (in terms of raw power) out of those three (I may or may not be biased) is most definitely Merfolk.
However, each of them have their intangibles and weaknesses. For its curve, I think Merfolk has the best curve for vial
Dnt has the benefit of not being hindered too much by not having vial in hand.
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
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That's just what I mean; is the best Aether Vial deck the one that gets the best use out of an active Aether Vial, or the one that can take full advantage of Vial without depending on it so heavily?
If I could make my deck selection with Vial automatically in the opening grip, I would choose Merfolk every time. Playing, and possibly even defending it, on turn 1, ever afterward sitting there with my untapped Island(s) whilst I passed the turn... that, I think, is something fundamentally more powerful than what these other decks use Vial for. Unfortunately there are plenty of hands that open with no Vial and not enough colored mana to play the creatures in hand.... or worse, the Vial gets dealt with and I'm left unable to cast my creatures. It's reminiscent of playing Sol lands + Chalice decks.
Goblins uses Vial to double mana production, flash critters in as combat tricks, and make critters uncounterable. It doesn't really get to use Vial as a combat trick to the extent that 'Folk does (by buffing guys), and it has to wait until 4 counters tick up before it can drop the best possible card (which, in my view, is Goblin Ringleader).
DnT has a curve only slightly above 'Folk, and it seems to me that there are more Vial tricks to be had with this deck than with Goblins. Goblins is going to plunk down dudes that bring out more dudes who bring out more dudes, and so on. DnT is going to bring out Stoneforge Mystic, Flickerwisp, and the dreaded Mangara of Corondor.
If I knew I wouldn't get to have an Aether Vial in my opening grip, I think the choice of DnT is more reasonable.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
I think what he's saying is that they perform relatively evenly against tempo, midrange, and control strategies, so combo is the tiebreaker. And yes, Gobs is easily the worst of the three decks against combo.
How is Gobs against RUG? I would imagine that it has enough CA to beat Jund/BUG, although those decks could side Plague if they wanted to. D&T sometimes falls apart against the grindier midrange Goyf decks, but it also stomps all over RUG. And Folk is Folk.
All told, I think I like D&T best unless the field is dominated by Belcher, in which case you play Folk, or dominated by other "fair creature decks", in which case you play Gobs. But D&T has a slew of even matches, whereas other decks have some weaknesses to specific archetypes.
Having played all three:
head to head
Goblins > Death and Taxes
Goblins > Merfolk
Death and Taxes > Merfolk
Goblins has more gas and amazing card advantage than the others
Death and Taxes: Batterskull + No islands > merfolk
really the question is not specific enough.
@AdamW
Goblins flat out crushes rug
Prior to Thalia, the Goblins splash decks ran black for discard. Thorn of Amethyst were often found in the sb. I don't think applying new technology is a cry out of a decks weakness. That's the reason sideboards exist. It makes sense to use the better mouse trap when they make one.
stop being dense. i hear karakas by itself does nothing against storm. it also doesnt mean storm is the only type of combo.
To think that its the only indicator shows you dont understand legacy. Being able to beat other aggro or control decks more consistently is pretty important and to say "meh they're close" is not an acceptable answer.
By this logic Tribal wizards (Don't be hating on my pet deck now guys :p) is superior to goblins despite top 8 results showing otherwise.
lol @ taking his reply out of context.
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
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Or you could run Goblins with Thalia.
its completely in context. he listed outs against combo without listing stingscouger because it doesn't do anything against storm even though it isnt the only type of combo. Yet he lists karakas as an out against combo by itself which it does nothing against storm. Are you following the thread?
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Goblins has the issue where by many of the decks more powerful strategies are now becoming increasingly outdated due to the lack of a good solid defence against newer decks that have come up. In this I do not mean we have no defence, I just mean our answers have turned into non goblin cards creating a situation whereby one finds themselves naming "Human" an a cavern is now not an uncommon situation. This has weakened us somewhat as our core is and has always been dropping Green men and fetching Green men.
Still I find the idea of Stinger not being useful against storm to be funny as hell. Of all the cards we run your going to name that one guy, that shores up other combo matches as being bad against one kind of combo. We do have other cards for that match. Be them humans we do have them. That's not to say we do not have in house hate for combo, only that our weakness are not something that the tribe has any real response for and the meta would eat us if we do not adapt.
But that's not the point here. Goblins match up best against Control, tend to match Aggro in speed and lose to Combo. You put your hate for combo in the side, deal with the fact that game one is a hard game to win and pull out your hate game two. Because you already have a above average match-up against 2 of the 3 categories in the "Legacy Trifecta", so why dilute your strengths to push against combo and thus weaken your other two strong match-ups?
Goblins are not often going to beat combo game one, but that's the name of the game. Nothing has a perfect match up against everything 100% of them time. Yes we lean on our sideboard to win against Combo, but hell, everyone leans on their sideboards to beat something. Be that Dredge, Burn or a Leyline to stop Pox making you mass discard. Every deck has a weakness, Goblins just happen to dislike Combo. Does not mean we can not do something about it with a touch of white.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Goblins does not have the same pass against fair decks that it had years ago, when it was the undisputed king of Legacy.
I played Goblins for a long time, and loved the deck, but ultimately it wasn't the one for me and we parted ways. Other players stick with Goblins for a long time, and become truly sick at it. I've met Max Tietze. I've seen him play. I talked about this very topic with him, and he wouldn't venture an off-hand opinion at the time. I've also spent time with Jon Ashcroft and seen him play Goblins as well. These gentlemen are both SCG top-8ers whom I respect very much. I mention all this only because I don't wish it to be perceived as disrespect (towards Goblins or the people who play it) or inexperience when I tentatively claim that Death and Taxes is, at least by a marginal amount, both the better Aether Vial deck and the better deck generally.
That's not actually saying all that much, because to my way of looking at things, Death and Taxes is basically a white Goblins deck. The cards don't correspond 1-to-1, obviously, otherwise this wouldn't be much of a revelation, but if we look beyond the traditional defining features of Goblins, there's a lot that the decks have in common. DnT doesn't have the Goblin Lackey free win machine, true, but it does have Mother of Runes: which eats removal with near-equal regularity. There isn't any source of card advantage in DnT to match Goblin Ringleader, but there's virtual card advantage in Umezawa's Jitte and Mangara of Corondor. Aether Vial is not the only element these decks have in common. There is a lot more than is commonly credited.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Merfolk: 42
Goblins: 35
D&T: 8
Based on this data you would say that Merfolk came out on top, but that isn't fair to say since I would suggest that more people run this deck since the only expensive cards in it are Legacy staples that are run across many different decks and it's the cheapest of the three decks to run. I personally run Gobbos and Merfolk and I've found that I prefer to play Merfolk in an unknown meta, but I'm not as good at Gobbos either, so that's again unfair to say. Personally, I see it this way:
Merfolk has the early game upper hand on these two. It can interact G1 T1 and constantly interact throughout the game regardless of having mana/vial up or not.
Goblins has the midgame with an explosive toolkit that can't be handled by many decks and sideboard options that can bring it into contention with other combo/control decks that it would otherwise struggle with.
D&T has the long game with a toolbox that will hard-lock down opponents to do exactly as they please.
Choose accordingly.
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