It is my opinion that for every legacy player they lose due to their collection value plummeting, they will gain 3 players who would otherwise not be able to play. These players will buy packs, singles, attend tournaments, and contribute to the community just as the 1 player that they lost did (if not better since they are newly invigorated by this new exciting format).
This may be true, but what is the motivation for them? They already have Modern as their chosen non-rotating cash cow. I think they want Legacy prices to be sky high. It creates an illusion of collectibility for newer cards, for those who don't really take the time to understand why Legacy cards are so expensive.
Agreed. If you want to play in a sanctioned tournament, use the sanctioned cards. This is a hobby and people are all acting like wizards owes them something.
I believe that a bigger looming issue is that at some point, counterfeits could become so good that they are indistinguishable from the originals. I would find it hard to believe that twenty year old printing technology couldn't be replicated today. Regular players can buy them without even realizing they are fake, and at that point, if the cards are identical, what's the real difference? At a certain point, the reserved list becomes counter intuitive and doesn't help with the claimed purpose of protecting people's cards because those people have no way of "proving" that they have real cards.
This is a hobby and people are all acting like wizards owes them something.
I really think that everyone needs to remember this. Wizards doesn't owe anyone anything. Not collectors and not people who happen to be on the outside of legacy looking in. Collectors seem to think that they could somehow sue Wizards if they decided to print anything on the reserved list. Why anyone who truly loves this great game would do that is beyond me. When you invest in anything in life, whether it be magic cards, a house, or a business, you assume something called risk. This ultimately means that anytime after you make that purchase, the value of that investment could lose value. If that happens, there is no way you could sue the person who sold you the investment. People who have valuable collections seem to think that they are impervious to risk and that Wizards owes it to them to preserve the reserved list. Similarly, I think everyone who is on the outside of Legacy looking in should remember that for now, if you're not willing to pay the high prices to get into Legacy there are still other viable options (borrowing cards for example). I for one am hoping that the card pool increases so that legacy is both affordable and accessible for new players, but if it never happens I'll just remember that Wizards doesn't owe me that. There are still other ways to enjoy this great game.
I think we should separate a debate of whether WOTC is *obligated* either legally (Absurd) or ethically (Controversial) to change the status-quo off of a discussion of the merits and viabilities of various “solutions” ranters upset by the status quo for whatever reason --whether it’s not having the cards but wanting to play or having the cards but wanting the format to grow more, whatever-- and are calling for change. Why they should or shouldn’t can be discussed without suggested an *entitlement* to WOTC agreeing with/implementing anything.
When you invest in anything in life, whether it be magic cards, a house, or a business, you assume something called risk. This ultimately means that anytime after you make that purchase, the value of that investment could lose value...
Different investments follow different rules. If I invest in a house I don't expect it to depreciate in value, especially if it's maintained. Since a house is essentially something everyone needs if anything it should only appreciate in value. In this case demand will probably determine the degree it appreciates. While magic is far from a necessity it was created in a time of an unknown future and the idea of a reserve list was a way to protected a property from the unknown future.
Needless to say risk can be involved, but there are ways to mitigate that risk. The reserve list was one such way. Now the main risk is demand being too high for not enough product. Personally having played for a long time I am more concerned for the player who now buys underground sea for ~$350 now only to have a mass printing drop it to $50. I think people are ok with taking a hit like that especially if the initial investment was low. But if you are a newer player that potential disparity is detrimental to ones confidence in WotC.
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Well, they finally did it, a foil force of will.
>Inb4 normal fow drop as foil obsessors spend $400 on each of them
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Standard
>implying Modern
>implying Legacy UWMiracles/Countertop EDH UUUMemnarch, Steal your grillUUU RWUZedruu, Queen of ChaosRWU GWUBRReaper KingGWUBR My Trades
I believe that a bigger looming issue is that at some point, counterfeits could become so good that they are indistinguishable from the originals. I would find it hard to believe that twenty year old printing technology couldn't be replicated today. Regular players can buy them without even realizing they are fake, and at that point, if the cards are identical, what's the real difference? At a certain point, the reserved list becomes counter intuitive and doesn't help with the claimed purpose of protecting people's cards because those people have no way of "proving" that they have real cards.
That's where we are now. The status quo is simply so much more comfortable for everyone involved in the game that willful ignorance to the actual state of affairs is rampant. Almost everyone goes about their magical business as though there weren't an armada of printing presses in China (my example because these are the ones I know of) spinning off sheet after sheet of indistinguishable copies.
I believe that a bigger looming issue is that at some point, counterfeits could become so good that they are indistinguishable from the originals. I would find it hard to believe that twenty year old printing technology couldn't be replicated today. Regular players can buy them without even realizing they are fake, and at that point, if the cards are identical, what's the real difference? At a certain point, the reserved list becomes counter intuitive and doesn't help with the claimed purpose of protecting people's cards because those people have no way of "proving" that they have real cards.
That's where we are now. The status quo is simply so much more comfortable for everyone involved in the game that willful ignorance to the actual state of affairs is rampant. Almost everyone goes about their magical business as though there weren't an armada of printing presses in China (my example because these are the ones I know of) spinning off sheet after sheet of indistinguishable copies.
Well I think standard legal and modern legal cards would probably easier to counterfeit mainly the issue of aging, old cards show signs of age a printing press can't exactly duplicate that. However, I would not be surprised as counterfeits become more rampant too see really well done prints. I suppose chemical analysis of a card's ink could give a good idea of a cards authenticity? I do find it saddening though to see some cards so expensive, particularly lands.
Counterfeits are certainly on the radar. New cards with the counterfeit stamp/sticker shows you the concern from WOTC themselves. However, I DO side with the idea of older cards not being as much of a problem because of aging you can't replicate. Nobody has mint duals, power, force, etc. Even the best show aging in ways fresh counterfeits can't. However, newer cards are all "new enough" to introduce fakes with hard to spot differences. I'm just pissed prices are so high. The rise of prices month by month is compounding in a way that it's no longer "worth it" for me to buy higher end cards. I just try to win 1-2 key cards At events via prizes.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I want to agree with these aging arguments because for the most part it is true. However I then look at my "out of the pack" ancestral recall and also realize some people take care of their cards in a way that the "aging" doesn't exist. It's an ok guideline, but still quite fallible.
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Counterfeits are certainly on the radar. New cards with the counterfeit stamp/sticker shows you the concern from WOTC themselves. However, I DO side with the idea of older cards not being as much of a problem because of aging you can't replicate. Nobody has mint duals, power, force, etc. Even the best show aging in ways fresh counterfeits can't. However, newer cards are all "new enough" to introduce fakes with hard to spot differences. I'm just pissed prices are so high. The rise of prices month by month is compounding in a way that it's no longer "worth it" for me to buy higher end cards. I just try to win 1-2 key cards At events via prizes.
And this is exactly why counterfeiting becomes more and more attractive; the cards are more expensive. Counterfeiting something that's worth over $100 is sure a lot more appealing than something that's much less, especially when the reason for its price is demand for its functionality rather than collectibility, meaning people will be caring a lot less to check. Someone buying an Alpha Black Lotus as a collectors item's extremely likely to ensure it's not counterfeit; someone buying a Tarmogoyf they want to use for a deck, much less so.
Counterfeits will eventually bring prices down. We don't know when, but it will happen. Those with legacy staples are more likely to hate it those with no legacy staples are more likely to support it. When it happens people will use counterfeits, because many play the game to have fun.
When the LEGACY market floods with counterfeits WotC will lose no money directly as WoTC makes none off of legacy. People would lose confidence in WotC though.
So is it better that legacy is easily accessible? Should we just have tons of proxy tournaments? I don't know...
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- Modern WBB/W TokensWB WUBAd NauseamWUB
- Commander WG Captain Sisay's LegendsWG
Counterfeits will eventually bring prices down. We don't know when, but it will happen. Those with legacy staples are more likely to hate it those with no legacy staples are more likely to support it. When it happens people will use counterfeits, because many play the game to have fun.
When the LEGACY market floods with counterfeits WotC will lose no money directly as WoTC makes none off of legacy. People would lose confidence in WotC though.
So is it better that legacy is easily accessible? Should we just have tons of proxy tournaments? I don't know...
I do have Legacy staples and I would hate it, but the reason is different. I would love to see cheaper cards and more Legacy players, and I am definitely not alone. The part I WOULD mind is an illegal company making money off of the cards. I wish Wizards would just steadily reprint, but oh well. Clearly not going to happen in any meaningful way.
Beyond how shady that is along with the horrible effects of being caught, I would seriously question Wizard's business decisions. I don't even mean morality. I mean their profit maximization in the short and long term. It would make far more sense to openly distribute the cards, rather than make it look like some person in china is taking advantage of their inaction.
The day I join legacy (competitively with a deck I WANT to play) will most likely be after counterfeits have crashed the market. I will happily play with quality proxies, and even spend a decent amount on them. If the TO/Judges give me crap about it, then I didn't have good enough counterfeits.
Before you say it, I realize that my actions would not be good for the game overall. However, WOTC isn't doing anything about it so I'll wait for a 3rd party to come in and profit where WOTC could have. The only way I would not go with the above method is if the Reserved list is abolished and they announce Legacy Masters (limited print run is fine! Stabilize, don't crash!), complete with any $100+ staples as rares or uncommons.
It is my opinion that for every legacy player they lose due to their collection value plummeting, they will gain 3 players who would otherwise not be able to play. These players will buy packs, singles, attend tournaments, and contribute to the community just as the 1 player that they lost did (if not better since they are newly invigorated by this new exciting format).
Your account should be suspended for violation of the TOS - supporting/discussion of engaging in illegal activities on this forum. Short-sighted and motivated by instant gratification - forget working hard and earning anything when you can commit a felony by supporting forgeries. I'd like to think it would take more than a trading card game for my moral compass and self-respect to be compromised. /end rant.
Sorry you feel this way. In no way is the situation anywhere near as serious as you're making it out to be. I equate my hypothetical actions to buying a pair of knockoff gucci sunglasses from a streetvendor. Im never paying $400 for the name brand, so I'll pay 20 for the ones that are pretty close.
Wotc has the opportunity to do something, and ill continue to be patient. But there will come a time when it will be too late.
Let me guess: you are also pro DRM, pro "anti piracy/privacy laws", and have a nice fat legacy collection that stands to lose based on my scenario?
Torrents/pirating intellectual property are a great way to get immediate gratification for yourself and screw over the artist who created the property you stole. Buying a song for 99 cents on amazon isn't a hardship but for many it seems easier to use self-serving logic to justify theft - much like your admission to commit a felony by knowingly engaging in criminal possession of forged items. You do this with the intent to defraud individuals and organizations all so you can enrich yourself by winning prize money and other goods. You seem to feel WotC owes you something - that you are entitled to play with pieces of cardboard that are 20 years old and if WotC doesn't fix your problem then by default you have every right to commit said felony.
Actually, this has been proven false. Pirating has been shown to have little to no affect on sales, at least for the music industry: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21856720
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Legacy Decks UBG Reanimator RUB Delver R Burn UR Delver UBW Tin Fins UBGR ANT
How would you feel if that illegal company was just WotC using one of their Chineese factories to print WotC "illegal proxies?"
WotC would be undermining their own company. People would loose faith in WotC now that counterfeits are everywhere but the cards are actually real. It would be very confusing
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Reserved list is good because it grants that your investment will not drop in value which makes it easier to buy Duals and so on...
...The existence of counterfeits is one of the things that makes people buy cards from the online markets rather than from a seller on eBay because they claim to destroy all counterfeits on sight. I for one would not mind paying some extra just to be sure that I am getting a real thing and I bet that many others do the same.
I see a problem here. If counterfeits push consumers towards online retailers, won't that mean that your investment will drop in value once you possess the cards and they are no longer direct from a trusted source?
Also, in theory making Legacy accessible would mean printing the cards and selling them. The reason WotC makes no money from Legacy is because they don't print and sell those staples! (However, I do agree WotC would make less money supporting Legacy; unless they gouge the customer base which could be bad PR).
I would lean more towards creating a new concept as opposed to just printing cards. Printing cards hurts the existing player base while helping create a newer player base. Personally I think this would still be a net gain for the format but there are better approaches. I would lean towards something like tournament legal judges proxies that can be ordered from wizards and only function as rentable cards for tournaments. This way more casual players can still go to tournaments but may have to pay an extra $10 per tournament to get a couple staples. Prices would probably stay similar so collections dont lose value as the interest in the format would rise.
I would lean more towards creating a new concept as opposed to just printing cards. Printing cards hurts the existing player base while helping create a newer player base. Personally I think this would still be a net gain for the format but there are better approaches. I would lean towards something like tournament legal judges proxies that can be ordered from wizards and only function as rentable cards for tournaments. This way more casual players can still go to tournaments but may have to pay an extra $10 per tournament to get a couple staples. Prices would probably stay similar so collections dont lose value as the interest in the format would rise.
I am not too sure that creating 'tournament legal proxies' is a good idea. Such proxies would definitely make an impact on the value of the real cards. Consequently, something like "rent-a-deck" would be a better suggestion as this system would involve real cards. Players that have more than one deck could lend their spare decks to tournament organizers in exchange to a small fee, discount, etc. as a motivation. Then people could reserve decks with which they want to play a few days before the tournament. On the other hand, someone would have to collect the decks and check if all cards are left and if they are not replaced with cards of different language, condition and so on after the tournament which would make it even more complicated. All this process would take lots of time and effort and it does not seem that Legacy is dying for fresh blood.
I can understand creative solutions like these for reserved-list cards, but why are people against staples being reprinted? Do you people want the format to become so expensive that it dies off?
Wizards doesn't reprint popular cards because the cards are:
Too powerful, don't fit in Standard
Too expensive, price would crash
Honestly, I'm excited that they're experimenting with printing non-standard draft sets such as Modern Masters and Conspiracy. These allow more expensive cards to be printed at higher rarities, so as to prevent price crashes. They're non-standard, so that's not an issue either. In the long term, this is exactly what's needed to help make Magic more accessible.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
This may be true, but what is the motivation for them? They already have Modern as their chosen non-rotating cash cow. I think they want Legacy prices to be sky high. It creates an illusion of collectibility for newer cards, for those who don't really take the time to understand why Legacy cards are so expensive.
Legacy
Control
Miracles
All flavors of Stoneblade
Aggro
Grixis Delver
UR Delver
Burn
Combo
Dredge
TES/ANT
UR & UB Reanimator
Belcher
I really think that everyone needs to remember this. Wizards doesn't owe anyone anything. Not collectors and not people who happen to be on the outside of legacy looking in. Collectors seem to think that they could somehow sue Wizards if they decided to print anything on the reserved list. Why anyone who truly loves this great game would do that is beyond me. When you invest in anything in life, whether it be magic cards, a house, or a business, you assume something called risk. This ultimately means that anytime after you make that purchase, the value of that investment could lose value. If that happens, there is no way you could sue the person who sold you the investment. People who have valuable collections seem to think that they are impervious to risk and that Wizards owes it to them to preserve the reserved list. Similarly, I think everyone who is on the outside of Legacy looking in should remember that for now, if you're not willing to pay the high prices to get into Legacy there are still other viable options (borrowing cards for example). I for one am hoping that the card pool increases so that legacy is both affordable and accessible for new players, but if it never happens I'll just remember that Wizards doesn't owe me that. There are still other ways to enjoy this great game.
Different investments follow different rules. If I invest in a house I don't expect it to depreciate in value, especially if it's maintained. Since a house is essentially something everyone needs if anything it should only appreciate in value. In this case demand will probably determine the degree it appreciates. While magic is far from a necessity it was created in a time of an unknown future and the idea of a reserve list was a way to protected a property from the unknown future.
Needless to say risk can be involved, but there are ways to mitigate that risk. The reserve list was one such way. Now the main risk is demand being too high for not enough product. Personally having played for a long time I am more concerned for the player who now buys underground sea for ~$350 now only to have a mass printing drop it to $50. I think people are ok with taking a hit like that especially if the initial investment was low. But if you are a newer player that potential disparity is detrimental to ones confidence in WotC.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
>Inb4 normal fow drop as foil obsessors spend $400 on each of them
>implying
Modern
>implying
Legacy
UWMiracles/Countertop
EDH
UUUMemnarch, Steal your grillUUU
RWUZedruu, Queen of ChaosRWU
GWUBRReaper KingGWUBR
My Trades
That's where we are now. The status quo is simply so much more comfortable for everyone involved in the game that willful ignorance to the actual state of affairs is rampant. Almost everyone goes about their magical business as though there weren't an armada of printing presses in China (my example because these are the ones I know of) spinning off sheet after sheet of indistinguishable copies.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Well I think standard legal and modern legal cards would probably easier to counterfeit mainly the issue of aging, old cards show signs of age a printing press can't exactly duplicate that. However, I would not be surprised as counterfeits become more rampant too see really well done prints. I suppose chemical analysis of a card's ink could give a good idea of a cards authenticity? I do find it saddening though to see some cards so expensive, particularly lands.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
When the LEGACY market floods with counterfeits WotC will lose no money directly as WoTC makes none off of legacy. People would lose confidence in WotC though.
So is it better that legacy is easily accessible? Should we just have tons of proxy tournaments? I don't know...
WBB/W TokensWB
WUBAd NauseamWUB
- Commander
WG Captain Sisay's LegendsWG
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Actually, this has been proven false. Pirating has been shown to have little to no affect on sales, at least for the music industry: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21856720
UBG Reanimator
RUB Delver
R Burn
UR Delver
UBW Tin Fins
UBGR ANT
WotC would be undermining their own company. People would loose faith in WotC now that counterfeits are everywhere but the cards are actually real. It would be very confusing
WBB/W TokensWB
WUBAd NauseamWUB
- Commander
WG Captain Sisay's LegendsWG
I see a problem here. If counterfeits push consumers towards online retailers, won't that mean that your investment will drop in value once you possess the cards and they are no longer direct from a trusted source?
Also, in theory making Legacy accessible would mean printing the cards and selling them. The reason WotC makes no money from Legacy is because they don't print and sell those staples! (However, I do agree WotC would make less money supporting Legacy; unless they gouge the customer base which could be bad PR).
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
But I also have the benefit of living in Southern Ontario which has the highest density of Magic players in the world.
I can understand creative solutions like these for reserved-list cards, but why are people against staples being reprinted? Do you people want the format to become so expensive that it dies off?
Wizards doesn't reprint popular cards because the cards are:
Honestly, I'm excited that they're experimenting with printing non-standard draft sets such as Modern Masters and Conspiracy. These allow more expensive cards to be printed at higher rarities, so as to prevent price crashes. They're non-standard, so that's not an issue either. In the long term, this is exactly what's needed to help make Magic more accessible.