[Yes, of course you are right, its not like a hexproof/enduring ideal+enchant creature interaction at all, should have written that pre opening the bottle of wine...)
The enchantment can't stay where it is though, as the creature it has been on has gone, so the point- someone using this doen't want to reveal a pro red creature - still stands, as does the actual point- the card is not going to be banned. I would actually go so far as to say " or played". At all. But that may just be the wine.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Is deathrite too strong (looking at the top decks)?
one thing I don't like about legacy is cards that are NOT too strong yet are p much auto-includes because of how good they are. Shaman, swords, force of will are all in this category. They shouldn't be banned, but do make deck building more homogeneous than I'd like for a format that includes 20+ years of Cards.
Is deathrite too strong (looking at the top decks)?
Definitely the core of Deathrite Shaman, Fatal Push, one-mana Discard, and potential access to Abrupt Decay and Leovold, Emissary of Trest is overrepresented in the meta right now, with Grixis Delver, Deathblade, 4c Control/Czech Pile, BUG Delver, Elves, and Food Chain all running it. Access to Force of Will and blue cantrips certainly doesn't hurt either, with the venn diagram of the two being that above list minus Elves.
But this is certainly not omnipresent. Death and Taxes is the #2 list at the moment running neither the Bgu package nor the blue core, and the #4 list, Lands, doesn't either. UW blade doen't run the Bg package, nor does UR Sneak Show.
Now, the argument could certainly be made that Grixis Delver is even more dominant than Miracles was before the top ban. Looking at TCDecks.com, Grixis Delver has been the only deck over 400 points for both June and July, with the second place deck coming at or just under 200 points. Even for may, there's a 150ish point gap between Grixis Delver and the second-place deck. Compared to Miracles' numbers before the ban in February and March (January had enough fewer results that it isn't a good point of comparison): February had Miracles at 317 and Death & Taxes at 288, a much closer comparison between the top two decks, and March was a bit worse (320 vs 135 for the next closest). But with a similar number of decks, 300ish points versus 450 points is a big deal. Either way, it's clear that Grixis Delver has taken the clear spot as "top deck", with numbers at least comparable to Miracles' numbers, if not worse.
If we were to ban something from Grixis Delver, there's a few options. Young Pyromancer is the card that's most unique to the deck, it would hurt its viability without harming any of the other BgX decks. It's questionable, however, whether this would be sufficient, as there are a lot of alternate options that could be run, and potentially BUG Delver would just supplant it. Banning Delver of Secrets would be a major blow to Delver lists in general, forcing a greater reliance on alternate one drops and potentially diversifying the three top tempo decks in the format (Grixis Delver, BUG Delver, and UR Delver). But that would be a rather drastic ban, IMO. Deathrite Shaman seems like a reasonable target for banning, but the collateral damage would probably hurt too many other decks.
The alternate point of view is that it was never Miracles' dominance that led to Top's ban, but rather community outcry over the amount of time the deck used at every single tournament, taking rounds deep into extra turns every single round. Without this factor, nothing may need to be banned from Grixis Delver.
In the latest SCG Open, in the top 32 decks, 21 of them are running 4 Deathrite Shaman. That is Brainstorm territory of dominance in decklists.
Deathrite Shaman isn't only a 1 mana Planeswalker, it homogenizes both Midrange and Tempo decks, creates negative play patterns (Specifically with the graveyard), and is the best turn 1 play in the format bar none.
People play the best cards available to them. Island has a higher showing so we should ban that. People create bad play patterns, a positive for those who recognize that in their opponent.
No discussion needed for no existing problem.
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People play the best cards available to them. Island has a higher showing so we should ban that. People create bad play patterns, a positive for those who recognize that in their opponent.
To me they were cards that caused people to play worse magic. People called cruise a recall but ignore the 4+ cards they played to make that true. That said they are also blue. Their banning to me is more of a strive for non blue decks, ie diversity.
A better question is do people like playing with and against deathrite shaman? Metagame share seems irrelevant here as you may as well ban brainstorm then.
To me they were cards that caused people to play worse magic. People called cruise a recall but ignore the 4+ cards they played to make that true. That said they are also blue. Their banning to me is more of a strive for non blue decks, ie diversity.
And everything you just said applies to Deathrite Shaman as it currently stands.
Why Yawgmoth's Bargain is still banned? Should it be unbanned?
*It costs 6 mana, not so easy to cast compared to necro
*Griselbrand is doing similar things but not banned
*It's unbanned in Vintage
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Have you guys seen this thread on Reddit
There's really nice analysis of the metagame and really interesting discussion on what to ban.
To summarize:
Quote from "people on reddit »
grixis delver outperforms next 3 top decks combined and it's concerning
DRS actually has a positive impact on the format because it allows creating diversity
Probe is a problem because:
Young Pyromancer interaction
Cabal Therapy interaction
100% information
- Free card draw
TNN is a problem because:
no reasonable interaction
no real downsides to it
gives free wins against difficult matchups
I would really like to see one of the two go. I don't think the format needs a shakeup of DRS ban, but I do think that Grixis Delver warrants nerfing, and I say that as Grixis Delver player.
That sounds like generic whining to me about non problematic cards. I'll continue to say the bigger issue is the player base. Parfait for example could be a tier 1 deck, but with probably 5 people playing it globally it will never get the attention that something like delver in general sees. For the most part the player base sees the performance of a given deck and opts to play it rather then try something different. I've posted a lot of decks here that I have proven to locals as contenders, but that's where it ends. They can see that it did well but it doesn't show up on mtg top 8's so it's not a deck. If the player base would choose "fringe decks" over existing decks you would see a lot of change in card variety immediately and the currently perceived problems would vanish.
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I think the reason it does not happen is pure budget one. It is a significant cost to invest in legacy and one does not want to buy in into a fringe deck. Hell people very often don't want to change deck when it's not good in meta because they can not/don't want to build another one.
I would love cards to be much more accessible and a format where you can brew deck affordably, but yeah...
I don't think TNN or DRS have to go, but I can fully agree with the comment of WeaponX. I would like to see some tournaments, where all decks are really equally present. I mean 3x grixis delver 3x High tide
3x maverick 3x Death and Taxes 3x Lands and so on ( the numbers are just an example) and then play the tournaments and wait which decks come up where, and how often. If then still grixis delver dominates all tournaments you could argue, that something needs to be changed. But even under such circumstances the data isn't 100% correct because each player has a more or less different skill piloting their decks and bad luck or something affect the data as well.
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Day one undefeated at GP Brum had 1 pile and 4 delver players.
Elves too, with two non DRS decks to finish. That sounds like a lot of DRS to me and thus a lot of incoming ban talk. You will note that in this tiny sample DRS probably has four more copies than Brainstorm unless their lists are super weird.
Now unfortunately due to the probably intentional decision to schedule it on the Fri and thus exclude those with work commitments (those who can actually afford the Legacy cards) I am not there to pick up the scuttlebutt and chatter on DRS, but if the top 8 on day two looks similar I feel there will be a lot of Drs ban talk in the bars tonight.
Ultimately I don't think any of the decks suddenly get knocked value-wise if they did ban it, so it is not a Vintage Shops or Modern Twin situation, I suspect it will get the banhammer eventually as I suspect most people don't want to play Legacy to play this type of match, and the card has not become ingrained like broken Brainstorm has.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
the card has not become ingrained like broken Brainstorm has.
Why hasn't it, by this point? RTR is like 6 years old by now. That's more than enough time for a staple to become ingrained.
That's an interesting notion.
WotC (apparently) see BS as a card that Legacy players love to play with. Same deal with Workshop in Vintage. It could very well make sense for WotC to look at DRS the same way.
The only trick is, if BS and DRS are both protected, what could WotC possibly ban if they want to simultaneously hurt Grisix Delver + Czech Pile (plus other BUGx midrange piles)? Any other ban would look awfully silly I think.
It's quite probable that hurting the fair decks of the format by removing their ramp + pressure one-mana planeswalker would advantage unfair decks too much to be worth it. They have tons of data from MTGO Competitive leagues and Format Challenges to go on as far as DRS' prevalence goes, and if you look at the results, sometimes they surprise you in how DRS isn't always the top dog. DRS doesn't have the old-frame-sacred-cow thing going for it, but it's still got more than five years' worth of pedigree, and it does pop up in multiple archetypes (aggro, tempo, control, even combo to an extent if you consider Elves) enough to say that it doesn't put any one deck or archetype at the forefront of the format.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that we need to see more unbans than bans at this point, if only because some of the crap on the ban list has no purpose being there anymore (Mind Twist, Earthcraft, maybe a couple others wouldn't even affect anything at all if they came off).
If you call the grixis/pile the same deck, as many do, then it does put one deck miles above the others, old miracles percentage above levels. If you don't then grixis is the best deck by a margin.
I think the reason brainstorm is ingrained aside from the obvious fact it has been there since day one is it is seen as package with force. Pretty much force and to a lesser extent daze keep Belcher et al in check. Having one mana and a brainstorm on t1 means the chances of having force or daze improve significantly vs those types of decks on the play. People tolerate that because Belcher et al are just not fun, even though BS is busted. Drs offers a bit of main deck bin hate for Reanimators, which are a more tolerated archetype.
I would certainly want unbans as suggested, but am rather tired of Drs plus blue shells myself.
I wonder if silent gravestone was a specific attempt to nerf drs that failed. Probably not but you never know.
Right, but that doesn't address the actual argument I'm making, which is that DRS is old enough to be an ingrained staple in the format. Brainstorm puts an entire colour a league above the other four, and people seem fine with that, but when decks like Czech (a midrange/control deck, if anything) and Delver (a tempo deck) are among the top decks alongside things like Elves (a combo deck) and various other fair decks improved by DRS, suddenly it's a foul. To put it bluntly, if DRS had been printed when Brainstorm was and vice versa, all these "ban DRS" calls would be "ban Brainstorm" calls, and there's no real getting around that, because if about six years isn't enough for something to be an ingrained staple, then how long does a card need to warp the format around it for in order to be okay?
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The enchantment can't stay where it is though, as the creature it has been on has gone, so the point- someone using this doen't want to reveal a pro red creature - still stands, as does the actual point- the card is not going to be banned. I would actually go so far as to say " or played". At all. But that may just be the wine.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Definitely the core of Deathrite Shaman, Fatal Push, one-mana Discard, and potential access to Abrupt Decay and Leovold, Emissary of Trest is overrepresented in the meta right now, with Grixis Delver, Deathblade, 4c Control/Czech Pile, BUG Delver, Elves, and Food Chain all running it. Access to Force of Will and blue cantrips certainly doesn't hurt either, with the venn diagram of the two being that above list minus Elves.
But this is certainly not omnipresent. Death and Taxes is the #2 list at the moment running neither the Bgu package nor the blue core, and the #4 list, Lands, doesn't either. UW blade doen't run the Bg package, nor does UR Sneak Show.
Now, the argument could certainly be made that Grixis Delver is even more dominant than Miracles was before the top ban. Looking at TCDecks.com, Grixis Delver has been the only deck over 400 points for both June and July, with the second place deck coming at or just under 200 points. Even for may, there's a 150ish point gap between Grixis Delver and the second-place deck. Compared to Miracles' numbers before the ban in February and March (January had enough fewer results that it isn't a good point of comparison): February had Miracles at 317 and Death & Taxes at 288, a much closer comparison between the top two decks, and March was a bit worse (320 vs 135 for the next closest). But with a similar number of decks, 300ish points versus 450 points is a big deal. Either way, it's clear that Grixis Delver has taken the clear spot as "top deck", with numbers at least comparable to Miracles' numbers, if not worse.
If we were to ban something from Grixis Delver, there's a few options. Young Pyromancer is the card that's most unique to the deck, it would hurt its viability without harming any of the other BgX decks. It's questionable, however, whether this would be sufficient, as there are a lot of alternate options that could be run, and potentially BUG Delver would just supplant it. Banning Delver of Secrets would be a major blow to Delver lists in general, forcing a greater reliance on alternate one drops and potentially diversifying the three top tempo decks in the format (Grixis Delver, BUG Delver, and UR Delver). But that would be a rather drastic ban, IMO. Deathrite Shaman seems like a reasonable target for banning, but the collateral damage would probably hurt too many other decks.
The alternate point of view is that it was never Miracles' dominance that led to Top's ban, but rather community outcry over the amount of time the deck used at every single tournament, taking rounds deep into extra turns every single round. Without this factor, nothing may need to be banned from Grixis Delver.
Currently Playing:
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This is the reason why; Link
In the latest SCG Open, in the top 32 decks, 21 of them are running 4 Deathrite Shaman. That is Brainstorm territory of dominance in decklists.
Deathrite Shaman isn't only a 1 mana Planeswalker, it homogenizes both Midrange and Tempo decks, creates negative play patterns (Specifically with the graveyard), and is the best turn 1 play in the format bar none.
No discussion needed for no existing problem.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
So Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise were unfairly banned?
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
And everything you just said applies to Deathrite Shaman as it currently stands.
Diversity available. It really just sounds like you personally have issues with the card. The format is very much fine with it.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
*It costs 6 mana, not so easy to cast compared to necro
*Griselbrand is doing similar things but not banned
*It's unbanned in Vintage
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
There's really nice analysis of the metagame and really interesting discussion on what to ban.
To summarize:
I would really like to see one of the two go. I don't think the format needs a shakeup of DRS ban, but I do think that Grixis Delver warrants nerfing, and I say that as Grixis Delver player.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I think the reason it does not happen is pure budget one. It is a significant cost to invest in legacy and one does not want to buy in into a fringe deck. Hell people very often don't want to change deck when it's not good in meta because they can not/don't want to build another one.
I would love cards to be much more accessible and a format where you can brew deck affordably, but yeah...
3x maverick 3x Death and Taxes 3x Lands and so on ( the numbers are just an example) and then play the tournaments and wait which decks come up where, and how often. If then still grixis delver dominates all tournaments you could argue, that something needs to be changed. But even under such circumstances the data isn't 100% correct because each player has a more or less different skill piloting their decks and bad luck or something affect the data as well.
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Elves too, with two non DRS decks to finish. That sounds like a lot of DRS to me and thus a lot of incoming ban talk. You will note that in this tiny sample DRS probably has four more copies than Brainstorm unless their lists are super weird.
Now unfortunately due to the probably intentional decision to schedule it on the Fri and thus exclude those with work commitments (those who can actually afford the Legacy cards) I am not there to pick up the scuttlebutt and chatter on DRS, but if the top 8 on day two looks similar I feel there will be a lot of Drs ban talk in the bars tonight.
Ultimately I don't think any of the decks suddenly get knocked value-wise if they did ban it, so it is not a Vintage Shops or Modern Twin situation, I suspect it will get the banhammer eventually as I suspect most people don't want to play Legacy to play this type of match, and the card has not become ingrained like broken Brainstorm has.
Why hasn't it, by this point? RTR is like 6 years old by now. That's more than enough time for a staple to become ingrained.
WotC (apparently) see BS as a card that Legacy players love to play with. Same deal with Workshop in Vintage. It could very well make sense for WotC to look at DRS the same way.
The only trick is, if BS and DRS are both protected, what could WotC possibly ban if they want to simultaneously hurt Grisix Delver + Czech Pile (plus other BUGx midrange piles)? Any other ban would look awfully silly I think.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Personally, I'm of the opinion that we need to see more unbans than bans at this point, if only because some of the crap on the ban list has no purpose being there anymore (Mind Twist, Earthcraft, maybe a couple others wouldn't even affect anything at all if they came off).
I think the reason brainstorm is ingrained aside from the obvious fact it has been there since day one is it is seen as package with force. Pretty much force and to a lesser extent daze keep Belcher et al in check. Having one mana and a brainstorm on t1 means the chances of having force or daze improve significantly vs those types of decks on the play. People tolerate that because Belcher et al are just not fun, even though BS is busted. Drs offers a bit of main deck bin hate for Reanimators, which are a more tolerated archetype.
I would certainly want unbans as suggested, but am rather tired of Drs plus blue shells myself.
I wonder if silent gravestone was a specific attempt to nerf drs that failed. Probably not but you never know.