Leyline of Sanctity is in the format, it is practically maindeckable in one of my LGS metas (Bg-X, RB reanimator, Storm and Burn infested).
I doubt mid twist would do much. By the time the MUD deck sets it up t2 it could easily have lost the twist to discard, or could be facing a live Show and Tell, enormous eanimated fattie or even have been Stormed to death once in a while. Hell even a D N T deck on the play may have plopped down a Revoker. Mindtwisting to the max t2 leaves room for Daze too. I may be wrong, but I suspect it would not have a huge impact. Great card, yeah, but probably not much more than many great cards in the format.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Leyline of Sanctity is in the format, it is practically maindeckable in one of my LGS metas (Bg-X, RB reanimator, Storm and Burn infested).
I doubt mid twist would do much. By the time the MUD deck sets it up t2 it could easily have lost the twist to discard, or could be facing a live Show and Tell, enormous eanimated fattie or even have been Stormed to death once in a while. Hell even a D N T deck on the play may have plopped down a Revoker. Mindtwisting to the max t2 leaves room for Daze too. I may be wrong, but I suspect it would not have a huge impact. Great card, yeah, but probably not much more than many great cards in the format.
Do you agree/disagree that resolved Twists X=4 on turns 1/2 is good for the format? X = 3?
Ritual into twist is bad. Hymn is better in most cases.
Big decks that can hard cast it aren't represented anyway so this is something they may need to push them into contention.
Twist is a bogeyman. I've cut it from edh and cube for not being good enough.
So yes it's amazing for the format.
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Ritual into twist is bad. Hymn is better in most cases.
Big decks that can hard cast it aren't represented anyway so this is something they may need to push them into contention.
Twist is a bogeyman. I've cut it from edh and cube for not being good enough.
So yes it's amazing for the format.
A Single ritual is a bad hymn. A second one is GG.
Ritual into twist is bad. Hymn is better in most cases.
Big decks that can hard cast it aren't represented anyway so this is something they may need to push them into contention.
Twist is a bogeyman. I've cut it from edh and cube for not being good enough.
So yes it's amazing for the format.
A Single ritual is a bad hymn. A second one is GG.
Using more cards to justify a card as playable is the very proof of it being safe. If you use 3 cards to make me lose 4 you are barely gaining an advantage. Also compare that to the storm deck that wins with those 2 rituals.
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Ritual into twist is bad. Hymn is better in most cases.
Big decks that can hard cast it aren't represented anyway so this is something they may need to push them into contention.
Twist is a bogeyman. I've cut it from edh and cube for not being good enough.
So yes it's amazing for the format.
A Single ritual is a bad hymn. A second one is GG.
Using more cards to justify a card as playable is the very proof of it being safe. If you use 3 cards to make me lose 4 you are barely gaining an advantage. Also compare that to the storm deck that wins with those 2 rituals.
How so? Literally every card outside the power nine is banned because of its interactions with other cards.
The four are random. That's the advantage. Maybe I just hit all your lands. Maybe it was all your spells? Putting your opponent into topdeck mode before they have so much as a turn is bad for the game. Storm doesn't win off two rituals it wins off twenty and devotes their whole deck to it. Mind twist can be splashed into anything.
Ritual into twist is bad. Hymn is better in most cases.
Big decks that can hard cast it aren't represented anyway so this is something they may need to push them into contention.
Twist is a bogeyman. I've cut it from edh and cube for not being good enough.
So yes it's amazing for the format.
A Single ritual is a bad hymn. A second one is GG.
Using more cards to justify a card as playable is the very proof of it being safe. If you use 3 cards to make me lose 4 you are barely gaining an advantage. Also compare that to the storm deck that wins with those 2 rituals.
How so? Literally every card outside the power nine is banned because of its interactions with other cards.
The four are random. That's the advantage. Maybe I just hit all your lands. Maybe it was all your spells? Putting your opponent into topdeck mode before they have so much as a turn is bad for the game. Storm doesn't win off two rituals it wins off twenty and devotes their whole deck to it. Mind twist can be splashed into anything.
I have played around with the card before. It's not the boogeyman that it once was. It's less efficient than hymn. You have to spend most your hand to play it, putting both player into basically a top deck war. If that's broken, I am surprised you don't have issues with decks like storm. The game is far from over if mind twist resolves. Where as storm and other decks just kill you. Also an other thing throwing that many resources to cast a large mind twist means you can loose most of your hand to a force of will or even a daze.
Well let's start with you haven't given any actual argument. Ritual, ritual, mindtwist is not a strong play. It makes the x in twist better but uses more cards then just hymn X2. There is no inherit advantage to doing this when the same cards can let you win the game on the spot. A late game twist where you actually just use lands is infinitely stronger and happens at a better point in the game where you will win after its cast. Early on it becomes who topdecks better which doesn't mean you win and there could already be threats such as a delver or deathrite in play before you even attempt this.
And since you seem to have missed it via your response I'll illustrate this again:
Hymn X2 = 4 mana, 4 random cards
Twist, ritual, ritual = 5 mana, 4 random cards, and costs you 3 cards
Your "advantage" costs you one more mana and another card to do what 2 hymns can do with no disadvantage.
You can still hit random cards with both but unless you aren't stripping the hand completely you are relying on random. Maybe you do hit all my spells and I still play land deathrite. You lose probably as you fuelled my deathrite. I can play a delver after and just protect that. These are common plays that your magical Christmas land doesn't solve or comprehend. And just to try to nip this in the butt now as I already see the cyclical arguments happening again, but simple math here 4 cards is not 7, that is not striping a hand. Please formulate an argument if you wish to continue this because all I'm seeing is snap judgments with no basis in anything.
You are wrong on your assessment of the banned listas well. Keep in mind land tax was on that list as well. Some are there purely as relics of the past.
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Leyline of Sanctity is in the format, it is practically maindeckable in one of my LGS metas (Bg-X, RB reanimator, Storm and Burn infested).
I doubt mid twist would do much. By the time the MUD deck sets it up t2 it could easily have lost the twist to discard, or could be facing a live Show and Tell, enormous eanimated fattie or even have been Stormed to death once in a while. Hell even a D N T deck on the play may have plopped down a Revoker. Mindtwisting to the max t2 leaves room for Daze too. I may be wrong, but I suspect it would not have a huge impact. Great card, yeah, but probably not much more than many great cards in the format.
Do you agree/disagree that resolved Twists X=4 on turns 1/2 is good for the format? X = 3?
I think a resolved twist on t2 for X = 4 is not worse than a resolved Tendrils for storm count x=10 or an Emrakul, both of which happen regularly in the format. I also think resolving a mind twist for x=4 might be difficult in a format with Daze/Spell pierce. Also mindtwisting some decks for 4- 5 cards- e.g. manaless dredge or reanimator still leaves the window open for rudeness at your expense for obvious reasons.
A Single ritual is a bad hymn. A second one is GG.
This is not an argument. It's a knee jerk reaction that people give when they don't understand, an opinion. Opinion is not an argument. I'm glad you agree to ending this for your veiled reason.
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Ritual into twist is bad. Hymn is better in most cases.
Big decks that can hard cast it aren't represented anyway so this is something they may need to push them into contention.
Twist is a bogeyman. I've cut it from edh and cube for not being good enough.
So yes it's amazing for the format.
A Single ritual is a bad hymn. A second one is GG.
You are also implying that Mind Twist resolves. In a format where U is prevalent, it is very likely to be countered. Expending 4 cards (including the land) to be at worst 3 for 2'd (Force of Will) or 3 for 1'd seems awfully bad with no protection seems pretty bad. Hymn works because you are not expending any resources outside of mana. I understand there is quick mana in format but this all in approach loses games before they start
A Single ritual is a bad hymn. A second one is GG.
This is not an argument. It's a knee jerk reaction that people give when they don't understand, an opinion. Opinion is not an argument. I'm glad you agree to ending this for your veiled reason.
All I know is that when wizards/DCI bans a big card they would unban something in return. They banned Top (that's a big card) and Mindtwist is still banned. I think that should say enough...
In the past, players would combo mana and twist out the opponent's hand. Good or bad, the fact is, if I played a swamp and twist out you're hand before you played a land - you are going to lose. Today, we have a good number of low casting cost cards, so the opponent may draw up a land and play something but how many turns would it take? I don't know about you, but that sucks.
To hear Twist discussed for unbanning is truly incredible. Mind Twist is impossible. There are no restrictions. And it is 100% lights out magnitude of card, even with the possibility of Force of Will. Dark Ritual is allowed, and how, even remotely so, would it be fair to allow, Ritual, Ritual, Thoughtseize/Duress, Twist for 3. Although this is a big dumping of things for other things, one of them is proactive and is the deck plan, and the other is just... anything other than a low to the ground aggro deck. That just packs it in, pretty much. With top banned this would be the best deck, and hardly even close. This would easily be 4 Inquisition, as well. Probably Chris Pikula deck. And this would be beatable how, exactly? So unlikely. Burn maybe.
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"Warning: Um, warning. This is going to be a game state violation. And a taking extra turns and drawing extra cards violation, pretty much, a whole bunch of violations. Look at me, I'm the DCI."
All I know is that when wizards/DCI bans a big card they would unban something in return. They banned Top (that's a big card) and Mindtwist is still banned. I think that should say enough...
In the past, players would combo mana and twist out the opponent's hand. Good or bad, the fact is, if I played a swamp and twist out you're hand before you played a land - you are going to lose. Today, we have a good number of low casting cost cards, so the opponent may draw up a land and play something but how many turns would it take? I don't know about you, but that sucks.
Depends what type of deck your playing, Dredge, reanmate decks and even decks like Agroloam would be quite happy about "discard" play.
All I know is that when wizards/DCI bans a big card they would unban something in return. They banned Top (that's a big card) and Mindtwist is still banned. I think that should say enough...
In the past, players would combo mana and twist out the opponent's hand. Good or bad, the fact is, if I played a swamp and twist out you're hand before you played a land - you are going to lose. Today, we have a good number of low casting cost cards, so the opponent may draw up a land and play something but how many turns would it take? I don't know about you, but that sucks.
Depends what type of deck your playing, Dredge, reanmate decks and even decks like Agroloam would be quite happy about "discard" play.
And Burn/Sligh always beat Necro... I don't think Necro is going to be unbanned anytime soon. Not everybody is playing Dredge, reanmator, or such...
I have doubts that Mind Twist is going to be unbanned.
Why? because it's a red version of oath of druids, but a lot worse because you don't need to worry if the opponent is playing with creatures. Especially, when we have a good number of spells that can put a 1/1 token in play.
Why? because it's a red version of oath of druids, but a lot worse because you don't need to worry if the opponent is playing with creatures. Especially, when we have a good number of spells that can put a 1/1 token in play.
How much better is this than Sneak Attack, or Show and Tell? It doesn't happen until next upkeep, and requires you to keep the attached creature until the upkeep trigger.
Although it is cute if you put it on an indestructible creature, or tutor up something pro-red.
Why? because it's a red version of oath of druids, but a lot worse because you don't need to worry if the opponent is playing with creatures. Especially, when we have a good number of spells that can put a 1/1 token in play.
How much better is this than Sneak Attack, or Show and Tell? It doesn't happen until next upkeep, and requires you to keep the attached creature until the upkeep trigger.
Although it is cute if you put it on an indestructible creature, or tutor up something pro-red.
For starters all you need is 4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and a few man lands and/or Khalni Garden... and the rest control magic (classic Oath builds).
Why? because it's a red version of oath of druids, but a lot worse because you don't need to worry if the opponent is playing with creatures. Especially, when we have a good number of spells that can put a 1/1 token in play.
Oath of Druids is cheaper, doesn't require you play token generators, and doesn't require that that token survives to your upkeep in order to trigger. This is not remotely comparable. This is barely better than Polymorph - might even be worse.
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Oh and if you tutor up a pro red dude the chain stops, the enchantment falls off.
Right, but it also doesn't get destroyed during your next upkeep. Like it said, it'd be cute to have your Blightsteel Colossus/Ulamog/Newlamog shrug off the destroy trigger and then summon an Akroma or Progenititus for insurance.
Actually, thinking about it, the chain doesn't stop in this case because the enchantment would remain on the indestructible creature. It can't attach itself to the protected creature, so it would stay where it was. Normally it would kill the creature and fall into the graveyard once state-based effects check that the attached creature is no longer a legal, but if that creature is indestructible it would remain in play.
Sorry I was not referring to the indestructible scenarios merely the idea of fetching up a pro red creature via the ability.
"Attaching" here does not target the creature unlike casting an enchant critter. Its similar putting an "enchant creature" into play via enduring ideal, where it can attach, for example, to a hexproof creature on the opponents' side. You can still attach the enchantment to a pro red creature revealed if the creature revealed by the ability is pro red (whereas you would not be able to enchant it if the first critter in the chain is pro red). It will then pop off as soon as the game checks, which it does continually for enchantments. In other words it would hop on via "attaching" and hop off after when the game checks, the enchantment going to the bin, ending the cycle as it were.
Indestructible stuff would indeed not be destroyed, seems better to me. The card is still not going to be banned though....
Sorry I was not referring to the indestructible scenarios merely the idea of fetching up a pro red creature via the ability.
"Attaching" here does not target the creature unlike casting an enchant critter. Its similar putting an "enchant creature" into play via enduring ideal, where it can attach, for example, to a hexproof creature on the opponents' side. You can still attach the enchantment to a pro red creature revealed if the creature revealed by the ability is pro red (whereas you would not be able to enchant it if the first critter in the chain is pro red). It will then pop off as soon as the game checks, which it does continually for enchantments. In other words it would hop on via "attaching" and hop off after when the game checks, the enchantment going to the bin, ending the cycle as it were.
Indestructible stuff would indeed not be destroyed, seems better to me. The card is still not going to be banned though....
You can't attach to something with pro-red. No matter how little it targets.
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I doubt mid twist would do much. By the time the MUD deck sets it up t2 it could easily have lost the twist to discard, or could be facing a live Show and Tell, enormous eanimated fattie or even have been Stormed to death once in a while. Hell even a D N T deck on the play may have plopped down a Revoker. Mindtwisting to the max t2 leaves room for Daze too. I may be wrong, but I suspect it would not have a huge impact. Great card, yeah, but probably not much more than many great cards in the format.
Big decks that can hard cast it aren't represented anyway so this is something they may need to push them into contention.
Twist is a bogeyman. I've cut it from edh and cube for not being good enough.
So yes it's amazing for the format.
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Using more cards to justify a card as playable is the very proof of it being safe. If you use 3 cards to make me lose 4 you are barely gaining an advantage. Also compare that to the storm deck that wins with those 2 rituals.
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How so? Literally every card outside the power nine is banned because of its interactions with other cards.
The four are random. That's the advantage. Maybe I just hit all your lands. Maybe it was all your spells? Putting your opponent into topdeck mode before they have so much as a turn is bad for the game. Storm doesn't win off two rituals it wins off twenty and devotes their whole deck to it. Mind twist can be splashed into anything.
I have played around with the card before. It's not the boogeyman that it once was. It's less efficient than hymn. You have to spend most your hand to play it, putting both player into basically a top deck war. If that's broken, I am surprised you don't have issues with decks like storm. The game is far from over if mind twist resolves. Where as storm and other decks just kill you. Also an other thing throwing that many resources to cast a large mind twist means you can loose most of your hand to a force of will or even a daze.
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And since you seem to have missed it via your response I'll illustrate this again:
Hymn X2 = 4 mana, 4 random cards
Twist, ritual, ritual = 5 mana, 4 random cards, and costs you 3 cards
Your "advantage" costs you one more mana and another card to do what 2 hymns can do with no disadvantage.
You can still hit random cards with both but unless you aren't stripping the hand completely you are relying on random. Maybe you do hit all my spells and I still play land deathrite. You lose probably as you fuelled my deathrite. I can play a delver after and just protect that. These are common plays that your magical Christmas land doesn't solve or comprehend. And just to try to nip this in the butt now as I already see the cyclical arguments happening again, but simple math here 4 cards is not 7, that is not striping a hand. Please formulate an argument if you wish to continue this because all I'm seeing is snap judgments with no basis in anything.
You are wrong on your assessment of the banned listas well. Keep in mind land tax was on that list as well. Some are there purely as relics of the past.
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I think a resolved twist on t2 for X = 4 is not worse than a resolved Tendrils for storm count x=10 or an Emrakul, both of which happen regularly in the format. I also think resolving a mind twist for x=4 might be difficult in a format with Daze/Spell pierce. Also mindtwisting some decks for 4- 5 cards- e.g. manaless dredge or reanimator still leaves the window open for rudeness at your expense for obvious reasons.
This is not an argument. It's a knee jerk reaction that people give when they don't understand, an opinion. Opinion is not an argument. I'm glad you agree to ending this for your veiled reason.
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You are also implying that Mind Twist resolves. In a format where U is prevalent, it is very likely to be countered. Expending 4 cards (including the land) to be at worst 3 for 2'd (Force of Will) or 3 for 1'd seems awfully bad with no protection seems pretty bad. Hymn works because you are not expending any resources outside of mana. I understand there is quick mana in format but this all in approach loses games before they start
Cool.
In the past, players would combo mana and twist out the opponent's hand. Good or bad, the fact is, if I played a swamp and twist out you're hand before you played a land - you are going to lose. Today, we have a good number of low casting cost cards, so the opponent may draw up a land and play something but how many turns would it take? I don't know about you, but that sucks.
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Depends what type of deck your playing, Dredge, reanmate decks and even decks like Agroloam would be quite happy about "discard" play.
And Burn/Sligh always beat Necro... I don't think Necro is going to be unbanned anytime soon. Not everybody is playing Dredge, reanmator, or such...
I have doubts that Mind Twist is going to be unbanned.
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Why? because it's a red version of oath of druids, but a lot worse because you don't need to worry if the opponent is playing with creatures. Especially, when we have a good number of spells that can put a 1/1 token in play.
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How much better is this than Sneak Attack, or Show and Tell? It doesn't happen until next upkeep, and requires you to keep the attached creature until the upkeep trigger.
Although it is cute if you put it on an indestructible creature, or tutor up something pro-red.
For starters all you need is 4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and a few man lands and/or Khalni Garden... and the rest control magic (classic Oath builds).
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StaffOath of Druids is cheaper, doesn't require you play token generators, and doesn't require that that token survives to your upkeep in order to trigger. This is not remotely comparable. This is barely better than Polymorph - might even be worse.
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Show/Sneak/Eureka and reanimaton are more efficient and flexible in the case of Show/Eureka.
Oh and if you tutor up a pro red dude the chain stops, the enchantment falls off.
Actually, thinking about it, the chain doesn't stop in this case because the enchantment would remain on the indestructible creature. It can't attach itself to the protected creature, so it would stay where it was. Normally it would kill the creature and fall into the graveyard once state-based effects check that the attached creature is no longer a legal, but if that creature is indestructible it would remain in play.
"Attaching" here does not target the creature unlike casting an enchant critter. Its similar putting an "enchant creature" into play via enduring ideal, where it can attach, for example, to a hexproof creature on the opponents' side. You can still attach the enchantment to a pro red creature revealed if the creature revealed by the ability is pro red (whereas you would not be able to enchant it if the first critter in the chain is pro red). It will then pop off as soon as the game checks, which it does continually for enchantments. In other words it would hop on via "attaching" and hop off after when the game checks, the enchantment going to the bin, ending the cycle as it were.
Indestructible stuff would indeed not be destroyed, seems better to me. The card is still not going to be banned though....
You can't attach to something with pro-red. No matter how little it targets.