Unban top and make a new tournament rule: If a match goes to time +5 turn, the deck running top loses
Fringe decks with top are happy(ish), good miracle players are happy, slow miracle player will finally need to learn how to play their deck properly
win-win-win
Why not have a stop clock like in Chess...
Don't kid yourself. Top was banned because of the interaction of Miracles.
That was what I was thinking. Stopclock like when playing online is a good answer to slow decks.
Good luck. Some players love burning the clock, especially when they know they are going to loose.
I remember one time I called a judge on a player, for a delay of game. The player was spending almost 5 minutes shuffling my deck. Judge told him to get on with it and that was it. He received no penalty... Meanwhile that player took 6 minute out of our game time.
Um... why didn't you call a judge after a minute? I feel like that's on you...
A judge will never penalize a person for slow play if it's the first time they are seeing it.
Unban top and make a new tournament rule: If a match goes to time +5 turn, the deck running top loses
Fringe decks with top are happy(ish), good miracle players are happy, slow miracle player will finally need to learn how to play their deck properly
win-win-win
Why not have a stop clock like in Chess...
Don't kid yourself. Top was banned because of the interaction of Miracles.
That was what I was thinking. Stopclock like when playing online is a good answer to slow decks.
Good luck. Some players love burning the clock, especially when they know they are going to loose.
I remember one time I called a judge on a player, for a delay of game. The player was spending almost 5 minutes shuffling my deck. Judge told him to get on with it and that was it. He received no penalty... Meanwhile that player took 6 minute out of our game time.
Um... why didn't you call a judge after a minute? I feel like that's on you...
A judge will never penalize a person for slow play if it's the first time they are seeing it.
A judge is also hesitant to call a slow play EVER.
Don't kid yourself. Top was banned because of the interaction of Miracles.
That was what I was thinking. Stopclock like when playing online is a good answer to slow decks.
Good luck. Some players love burning the clock, especially when they know they are going to loose.
I remember one time I called a judge on a player, for a delay of game. The player was spending almost 5 minutes shuffling my deck. Judge told him to get on with it and that was it. He received no penalty... Meanwhile that player took 6 minute out of our game time.
Um... why didn't you call a judge after a minute? I feel like that's on you...
A judge will never penalize a person for slow play if it's the first time they are seeing it.
A judge is also hesitant to call a slow play EVER.
That is irrelevant to a discussion. A judge will NEVER call slow play unless they are already watching the match.
That was what I was thinking. Stopclock like when playing online is a good answer to slow decks.
Good luck. Some players love burning the clock, especially when they know they are going to loose.
I remember one time I called a judge on a player, for a delay of game. The player was spending almost 5 minutes shuffling my deck. Judge told him to get on with it and that was it. He received no penalty... Meanwhile that player took 6 minute out of our game time.
Um... why didn't you call a judge after a minute? I feel like that's on you...
A judge will never penalize a person for slow play if it's the first time they are seeing it.
A judge is also hesitant to call a slow play EVER.
That is irrelevant to a discussion. A judge will NEVER call slow play unless they are already watching the match.
Judges being notorious for failures to act is irrelevant to why someone wouldn't call a judge?
OK.
Good luck. Some players love burning the clock, especially when they know they are going to loose.
I remember one time I called a judge on a player, for a delay of game. The player was spending almost 5 minutes shuffling my deck. Judge told him to get on with it and that was it. He received no penalty... Meanwhile that player took 6 minute out of our game time.
Um... why didn't you call a judge after a minute? I feel like that's on you...
A judge will never penalize a person for slow play if it's the first time they are seeing it.
A judge is also hesitant to call a slow play EVER.
That is irrelevant to a discussion. A judge will NEVER call slow play unless they are already watching the match.
Judges being notorious for failures to act is irrelevant to why someone wouldn't call a judge?
OK.
You're using a self-facilitating argument...
If you don't call a judge because they are "notorious for failures to act" then they can't act...
You can't call a judge late and then act surprised when they are not able to do anything.
If you suspect slow play call a judge as soon as possible and ask them to watch the match.
How is this a strawman argument? Have judges suddenly started reversing the last fifteen years where I've never, at any level, seen them enforce a slow play infraction? Or is it a straw man because that's the what's on your logical fallacy of the day calendar?
How is this a strawman argument? Have judges suddenly started reversing the last fifteen years where I've never, at any level, seen them enforce a slow play infraction? Or is it a straw man because that's the what's on your logical fallacy of the day calendar?
I used the wrong fallacy. Fixed in the above post. It's actually self-failing prophecy fallacy.
You hesitate to call a judge because you don't think they will act... and then blame them when they can't act because you didn't call them soon enough.
Regardless... if you're opponent shuffled your deck for 5 minuets before you decided to call a judge... that's on you.
Next time call a judge after a minute. And ask them to watch for slow play.
It's also not a self fulfilling prophecy because I'm not a big enough subset of the population. Other people call the judge. Other people have no action taken. Ironically, it's people like you who don't give up is how I know it doesn't work. So what's the fallacy for Tuesday?
To people who felt Top should go......why not CB and/or Terminus?
Does anyone really have an issue with Nic Fit, Painter, Mono B pox etc. Rare decks that are the underdogs in the format, the whole point of Miracles getting the ban is to increase diversity, not to nerf lower tier decks that increase it.
To those celebrating like a teenager who has just got a first date, saying 'now I can play Legacy again.....' you probably are not the sort of player your local Legacy scene needs, try EDH or Modern, if you have not already quit because someone Lanterned you.
And yes, I have fir a long time favoured a ban, just not Top.
I feel that the Top was banned for one reason alone, time consumption. Too many players would take too long resolving top over and over... And it sometimes felt like a certain specific player here would slow play just to annoy people. I've played against good miracles players, but I've also played against bad miracles players who would literally take forever to play a top.. I know what the loss of top does to the meta, but in some ways I feel that it was a good ban. Why?
It was a linchpin for so many decks and now my 10 post deck has lot one of its best matchups. However, my deck has lost one of the cards that made 10 post so good in top as well....
I feel that the Top was banned for one reason alone, time consumption. Too many players would take too long resolving top over and over... And it sometimes felt like a certain specific player here would slow play just to annoy people. I've played against good miracles players, but I've also played against bad miracles players who would literally take forever to play a top.. I know what the loss of top does to the meta, but in some ways I feel that it was a good ban. Why?
It was a linchpin for so many decks and now my 10 post deck has lot one of its best matchups. However, my deck has lost one of the cards that made 10 post so good in top as well....
I think top was one of the cards used so much in so many decks that inevitably it had to go.
I never liked that countertop lock, my 1cc spells almost never go through.
I never saw the card dragging the game, to the point that you wanted to gouge your eyeballs out. I also saw many 'non-blue' players taking a long turn because of an untapped island or two. I doubt wizards is going to ban the island.
They should never have got through given top costing 1cc!
I play Pox with Fetch-Top in, its the prison type and takes a while to win, you had to Top quickly. Topping was much, much quicker than sequencing Lilly decisions with Cursed Scroll around, for example. Miracles involved a lot more topping than the other top-using decks, with 9 odd fetches and a lot of looking needed it tok more time in the problem deck than a Post or Nic Fit player would......
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Yes, Legacy is competitive, but it's a game, and it's supposed to be fun.
You should play modern. Legacy features control decks that win by taking control of the game away from you. If you just want to play without fearing a counterspell, just go play a format that cripples control every chance it gets.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
I am still surprised Top got banned. If wizards really felt that counter top was banned. They should have banned counterbalance. I also feel the banning should be swapped around in modern too. Top is not really a problem card.
Yes, Legacy is competitive, but it's a game, and it's supposed to be fun.
You should play modern. Legacy features control decks that win by taking control of the game away from you. If you just want to play without fearing a counterspell, just go play a format that cripples control every chance it gets.
Legacy is a great format. It's main problem is card availability. I wouldn't say modern tries to kill control. It's just the tools never really existed. Modern's problem is that cards have to go through freaking standard. If cards from supplementary products could be modern legal it would not be an issue. Anyways this slightly off topic.
Going on topic-ish.
I worry that Legacy at top level is going to devolve into BUG vs combo.
There is no reason to not play BUG if you have the cards and want to play a top deck. As midrange decks go it has Leovold, who is nuts, and makes decks like D N T weaker. It has the 1 mana planeswalker--in-disguise that ramps and hates out on bins and can win games without attacking. It has discard and counters. The lot basically. BG-X is the midrange shell of choice of course, but at the moment, if you can get Leovold into that shell, why wouldn't you? It has Brainstorm. So the best critters, planeswalkers (JTMS + LOTV), counters and hand discard, and the 1cc DRS that just happens to fit into BG.
BG-X is very much stronger in a non miracles world, although Nic Fit took a hit from Top, the rest of the BG-X decks get a huge boost. The combo decks get a big boost too, of course. What we need is a not a ban on DRS or Brainstorm or whatever, but some cards that might boost big ramp or prison or whatever, -some better cards in Commander that might draw people away from the obvious route.
I really don't want hymns in decks that only need one black source. If it was B: One at random, or BX "only spend black on X" fine, but Legacy has many ways to sneak in some extra mana and turn this spell into a one card combo.
I really don't want hymns in decks that only need one black source. If it was B: One at random, or BX "only spend black on X" fine, but Legacy has many ways to sneak in some extra mana and turn this spell into a one card combo.
Trying to explain why that is bad, well you'll have a better chance to explain why the chicken crossed the road with a banana in it's ear. Too many players believe the setup for the first turn discard won't give the upper-hand...
Right now I'm leaning towards that Mind Twist is splashable.
People think trading your hand for your opponents on turn one is good. In most cases twist will be better in control mirrors and with no top that should be a needed card to help make control viable.
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------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
People think trading your hand for your opponents on turn one is good. In most cases twist will be better in control mirrors and with no top that should be a needed card to help make control viable.
It's not just one hand for another, it can be some of my hand for all of yours. A MUD deck drops a monolith on turn 1, that gives them five mana to twist on turn two. Even a pair of dark rituals is x=4. The variable cost of Mind Twist means it's always doing optimum damage. If players started at 7 life, Fireball would be banned too.
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Um... why didn't you call a judge after a minute? I feel like that's on you...
A judge will never penalize a person for slow play if it's the first time they are seeing it.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Yeah it's super dumb.
And I mean, Doomsday storm can still be played, the deck is just gonna look a lot different.
A judge is also hesitant to call a slow play EVER.
That is irrelevant to a discussion. A judge will NEVER call slow play unless they are already watching the match.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Judges being notorious for failures to act is irrelevant to why someone wouldn't call a judge?
OK.
You're using a self-facilitating argument...
If you don't call a judge because they are "notorious for failures to act" then they can't act...
You can't call a judge late and then act surprised when they are not able to do anything.
If you suspect slow play call a judge as soon as possible and ask them to watch the match.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I used the wrong fallacy. Fixed in the above post. It's actually self-failing prophecy fallacy.
You hesitate to call a judge because you don't think they will act... and then blame them when they can't act because you didn't call them soon enough.
Regardless... if you're opponent shuffled your deck for 5 minuets before you decided to call a judge... that's on you.
Next time call a judge after a minute. And ask them to watch for slow play.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I feel that the Top was banned for one reason alone, time consumption. Too many players would take too long resolving top over and over... And it sometimes felt like a certain specific player here would slow play just to annoy people. I've played against good miracles players, but I've also played against bad miracles players who would literally take forever to play a top.. I know what the loss of top does to the meta, but in some ways I feel that it was a good ban. Why?
It was a linchpin for so many decks and now my 10 post deck has lot one of its best matchups. However, my deck has lost one of the cards that made 10 post so good in top as well....
Eh................................................
I think top was one of the cards used so much in so many decks that inevitably it had to go.
I never liked that countertop lock, my 1cc spells almost never go through.
I never saw the card dragging the game, to the point that you wanted to gouge your eyeballs out. I also saw many 'non-blue' players taking a long turn because of an untapped island or two. I doubt wizards is going to ban the island.
I play Pox with Fetch-Top in, its the prison type and takes a while to win, you had to Top quickly. Topping was much, much quicker than sequencing Lilly decisions with Cursed Scroll around, for example. Miracles involved a lot more topping than the other top-using decks, with 9 odd fetches and a lot of looking needed it tok more time in the problem deck than a Post or Nic Fit player would......
You should play modern. Legacy features control decks that win by taking control of the game away from you. If you just want to play without fearing a counterspell, just go play a format that cripples control every chance it gets.
Legacy is a great format. It's main problem is card availability. I wouldn't say modern tries to kill control. It's just the tools never really existed. Modern's problem is that cards have to go through freaking standard. If cards from supplementary products could be modern legal it would not be an issue. Anyways this slightly off topic.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
I worry that Legacy at top level is going to devolve into BUG vs combo.
There is no reason to not play BUG if you have the cards and want to play a top deck. As midrange decks go it has Leovold, who is nuts, and makes decks like D N T weaker. It has the 1 mana planeswalker--in-disguise that ramps and hates out on bins and can win games without attacking. It has discard and counters. The lot basically. BG-X is the midrange shell of choice of course, but at the moment, if you can get Leovold into that shell, why wouldn't you? It has Brainstorm. So the best critters, planeswalkers (JTMS + LOTV), counters and hand discard, and the 1cc DRS that just happens to fit into BG.
BG-X is very much stronger in a non miracles world, although Nic Fit took a hit from Top, the rest of the BG-X decks get a huge boost. The combo decks get a big boost too, of course. What we need is a not a ban on DRS or Brainstorm or whatever, but some cards that might boost big ramp or prison or whatever, -some better cards in Commander that might draw people away from the obvious route.
I don't know. They could have un-banned mind twist.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Huh? What's the issue with mind twist?
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Some players believe that mindtwist could make a black/blue deck powerful.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Trying to explain why that is bad, well you'll have a better chance to explain why the chicken crossed the road with a banana in it's ear. Too many players believe the setup for the first turn discard won't give the upper-hand...
Right now I'm leaning towards that Mind Twist is splashable.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord