I am shocked Top was banned. Mainly because I was under the assumption that Hasbro didn't really care about Legacy. Do I think Top was that degenerate? No. Breaking Miracles without allowing the vast meta to compensate seems bad. There were plenty of ways to beat Miracles. Maybe it is just me not seeing this as a necessity?
Top seemed to be banned more for time issues than actual game interaction. Sylvan Library should see play in the Nic Fit decks now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Yeah, but Miracles was a true control on Legacy, one of the fews, I really dislike playing against it, but I didn't want to see it going out the window. In my thoughts, banning counterbalance or terminus would be better, without counterbalance Delver and Storm improve their matchups, without terminus Elves and DNT improve their matchups, but any one of those would bring the power of the deck down, now it will become a totally different meta.
I understand the time being, but I think it would be a better way to balance the deck without killing it.
Not sure what to do in Doomsday Tendrils without Top.
The collateral damage from this ban is absurd. Nic Fit, Painter, and Doomsday take significant hits. On a personal note, most of the decks I play just lost one of the their best match-ups.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Actually, wizards had to ban Top, otherwise they would be forced to ban Brainstorm. I really thought the rule change on split cards was aimed at countertop, now I'm not sure, why. The banning to does top make Counterbalance unplayable; at least to a professional level. I wonder if this would bring Standstill back into Legacy...
I don't think combo has a runaway... Force of Will and Daze is still in the format.
On the other hand, Countertop should had been broken up years ago, especially when Mental Misstep was an issue because everybody loved their 1cc spells. If you're really for the banning of Mental Misstep then you should be ok with the banning of Top.
I play Deadguy until now with two Top. I'm not super bummed. I'm going to try one or two more Smuggler's Copter to fill the selection roll. I'm mostly more excited for all the everything to come out of the woodwork and how the existing meta decks turn to attack each other now that Miracles is gone (is it?).
Come now as long as Force of will is a thing we will never get complete rule. Also some of OUR kin use that card for consistancty.. If this is a combo victory it is one that comes at a price.
Also... Wizards we of the legacy community do not seek a "Fun" format. We are quite happy with our "boring" 20+ viable deck options You have no need to go worrying your mind over our format please put no more effort in to banning cards from our format.
I thought the printing of Harsh Mentor was a fine move to slightly weaken Sensei's Divining Top. Why didn't they at least give him a chance?
Because wizards realized that Harsh Mentor don't do anything to planeswalkers and that burn is not maindecking this guy. The only deck that might play Harsh (I'm finger quoting "might") is UR Delver.
Somewhat ironically, all the players here who feel so many different decks are worse or broken without Top justifies and at least partially explains a reason for it's banning, in a way.
Should have just banned counterbalance if they wanted to hit miracles but leave the rest of the decks alone that were using top namely non blue decks like nic fit and such. I think they needed to ban some piece of miracles though, as it was clearly the best deck for a long, long time hands down. Every non miracles deck seemed to run abrupt decay purely to answer the softlock, whereas now it's not clear if you want to run decay over more efficient removal options that can answer deathrite shaman on the draw. Deathrite is now the premier 1 drop in legacy by the way, not delver. Though they'll likely be used together a lot deathrite has great power for a 1 drop.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I remember being laughed at for suggesting top gets banned over a year ago, a few others had similar experiences.
I'm talking real harsh arrogance and condescension for daring to make the suggestion.
It took WotC a long time to finally come around to it, and it's clear they were being very generous.
For all the folks who felt in their bones top should be banned, but toughed it out, this is some nice validation.
Now we're the ones who get to laugh =)
This is like Splinter Twin all over again.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
To people who felt Top should go......why not CB and/or Terminus?
Does anyone really have an issue with Nic Fit, Painter, Mono B pox etc. Rare decks that are the underdogs in the format, the whole point of Miracles getting the ban is to increase diversity, not to nerf lower tier decks that increase it.
To those celebrating like a teenager who has just got a first date, saying 'now I can play Legacy again.....' you probably are not the sort of player your local Legacy scene needs, try EDH or Modern, if you have not already quit because someone Lanterned you.
And yes, I have fir a long time favoured a ban, just not Top.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I remember being laughed at for suggesting top gets banned over a year ago, a few others had similar experiences.
I'm talking real harsh arrogance and condescension for daring to make the suggestion.
It took WotC a long time to finally come around to it, and it's clear they were being very generous.
For all the folks who felt in their bones top should be banned, but toughed it out, this is some nice validation.
Now we're the ones who get to laugh =)
This is like Splinter Twin all over again.
In one B&R update, Wizards killed three of the most skill-testing decks this game has ever seen. Doomsday and Miracles in Legacy and Gushbond in Vintage. Very bitterly disappointed in Forsythe and the rest of R&D.
Doomsday frequently relies on Sensei's Top to draw the top card of their Doomsday pile to get it started. There are very few other good options that can do this after cracking an LED.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I just got my tops for painter. It really sucks to know that I invested in a fringe deck that I knew wouldn't put me in the best position competitively. I have always loved grindstone so I wanted to play the deck for nostalgia. Its not the tops that bother me. Its the ancient tombs, city of traitors, and imperial recruiters that piss me off. What a freaking waste of my time.
Doomsday frequently relies on Sensei's Top to draw the top card of their Doomsday pile to get it started. There are very few other good options that can do this after cracking an LED.
Gah. It's beginning to seem like maybe the collateral damage from this ban might outweigh the benefits. I wonder how many decks will adjust and how many will just wither and die.
Gah. It's beginning to seem like maybe the collateral damage from this ban might outweigh the benefits. I wonder how many decks will adjust and how many will just wither and die.
I hope the meta doesn't go to *****.
I agree that this ban seems shortsighted. The meta was healthy, all things considered. Miracles was the best deck in the format, but only made up 15% of the format, so it wasn't like it was overwhelmingly the best deck. Meanwhile there was an absolutely huge number of decks with 2-7% of the meta - 4c/Grixis Delver, Death and Taxes, Eldrazi, UR Delver, Infect, Dragon Stompy, Shardless BUG, Leovold Control, Aggro Loam, Stoneblade, Show and Tell, Storm, Reanimator, Elves, Food Chain, Turbo Depths, and Aluren. Many of these came into being or gained prominence recently, showing that the meta was capable of evolving despite being overall stable. The meta was close to 33/33/33 split between Aggro/Tempo, Midrange/Control, and Combo. Blazing-fast combo decks were basically non-existent, as all of the top combo decks compromised speed for the reliability of being able to go toe-to-toe with Miracles in a longer game, leading to the average game-length for the format being something like 5.5 turns.
So why throw this away? Miracles' meta percentage over the past few months (15%) has been within 1 percentage point of its entire 2016 presence (14%), w which was only 2% up from its entire 2015 presence (12%). So the format hasn't gotten appreciably more centralized around Miracles. Recent major events have seen as many as 3 Miracles in the top 8 (EE17), but as few as 0 (EW16), so it's not like it's been consistently hogging the spotlight. Sure, there's the "Miracles Players Tend to Go to Time" issue, but that's been a known issue for literally the existence of Top. Why is it suddenly now a problem? (Also, I would posit that the solution to this problem is to be more aggressive in handing down slow play warnings to players who end up going to time in 2 or more matches in a tournament. I've played dozens of rounds of Miracles at tournaments and have literally never gone to time, it's not hard unless you're *trying* to stall.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Gah. It's beginning to seem like maybe the collateral damage from this ban might outweigh the benefits. I wonder how many decks will adjust and how many will just wither and die.
I hope the meta doesn't go to *****.
I agree that this ban seems shortsighted. The meta was healthy, all things considered. Miracles was the best deck in the format, but only made up 15% of the format, so it wasn't like it was overwhelmingly the best deck. Meanwhile there was an absolutely huge number of decks with 2-7% of the meta - 4c/Grixis Delver, Death and Taxes, Eldrazi, UR Delver, Infect, Dragon Stompy, Shardless BUG, Leovold Control, Aggro Loam, Stoneblade, Show and Tell, Storm, Reanimator, Elves, Food Chain, Turbo Depths, and Aluren. Many of these came into being or gained prominence recently, showing that the meta was capable of evolving despite being overall stable. The meta was close to 33/33/33 split between Aggro/Tempo, Midrange/Control, and Combo. Blazing-fast combo decks were basically non-existent, as all of the top combo decks compromised speed for the reliability of being able to go toe-to-toe with Miracles in a longer game, leading to the average game-length for the format being something like 5.5 turns.
So why throw this away? Miracles' meta percentage over the past few months (15%) has been within 1 percentage point of its entire 2016 presence (14%), w which was only 2% up from its entire 2015 presence (12%). So the format hasn't gotten appreciably more centralized around Miracles. Recent major events have seen as many as 3 Miracles in the top 8 (EE17), but as few as 0 (EW16), so it's not like it's been consistently hogging the spotlight. Sure, there's the "Miracles Players Tend to Go to Time" issue, but that's been a known issue for literally the existence of Top. Why is it suddenly now a problem? (Also, I would posit that the solution to this problem is to be more aggressive in handing down slow play warnings to players who end up going to time in 2 or more matches in a tournament. I've played dozens of rounds of Miracles at tournaments and have literally never gone to time, it's not hard unless you're *trying* to stall.)
Miracles was not healthy and Countertop was at a similar powerlevel of Oath/Survival before they got banned. I do believe Top should had been ban when Burn started to use Top. I started to used top in burn 2 years ago.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I understand the time being, but I think it would be a better way to balance the deck without killing it.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I don't think combo has a runaway... Force of Will and Daze is still in the format.
On the other hand, Countertop should had been broken up years ago, especially when Mental Misstep was an issue because everybody loved their 1cc spells. If you're really for the banning of Mental Misstep then you should be ok with the banning of Top.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Condolences to the bereaved.
Come now as long as Force of will is a thing we will never get complete rule. Also some of OUR kin use that card for consistancty.. If this is a combo victory it is one that comes at a price.
Also... Wizards we of the legacy community do not seek a "Fun" format. We are quite happy with our "boring" 20+ viable deck options You have no need to go worrying your mind over our format please put no more effort in to banning cards from our format.
Because wizards realized that Harsh Mentor don't do anything to planeswalkers and that burn is not maindecking this guy. The only deck that might play Harsh (I'm finger quoting "might") is UR Delver.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
(Also known as Xenphire)
Currently Playing:
Retired
You don't, as simple (and sad) as it is. Also, the reason, why I started to play Legacy (DDFT) just died...
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I always felt the "time issues" wizards mentions about top are over blown. It's their main reason for top being banned in modern.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
1. Unban Mind Twist and Earthcraft
2. Unban Goblin Recruiter
3. Unban Survival of the Fittest
4. Ban the Reserved List
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
I'm talking real harsh arrogance and condescension for daring to make the suggestion.
It took WotC a long time to finally come around to it, and it's clear they were being very generous.
For all the folks who felt in their bones top should be banned, but toughed it out, this is some nice validation.
Now we're the ones who get to laugh =)
This is like Splinter Twin all over again.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
This match says differently on the time match:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/98919500 (at around 30 min)
Does anyone really have an issue with Nic Fit, Painter, Mono B pox etc. Rare decks that are the underdogs in the format, the whole point of Miracles getting the ban is to increase diversity, not to nerf lower tier decks that increase it.
To those celebrating like a teenager who has just got a first date, saying 'now I can play Legacy again.....' you probably are not the sort of player your local Legacy scene needs, try EDH or Modern, if you have not already quit because someone Lanterned you.
And yes, I have fir a long time favoured a ban, just not Top.
Vindictive much?
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Doomsday is dead too? That sucks.
Doomsday frequently relies on Sensei's Top to draw the top card of their Doomsday pile to get it started. There are very few other good options that can do this after cracking an LED.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Gah. It's beginning to seem like maybe the collateral damage from this ban might outweigh the benefits. I wonder how many decks will adjust and how many will just wither and die.
I hope the meta doesn't go to *****.
I agree that this ban seems shortsighted. The meta was healthy, all things considered. Miracles was the best deck in the format, but only made up 15% of the format, so it wasn't like it was overwhelmingly the best deck. Meanwhile there was an absolutely huge number of decks with 2-7% of the meta - 4c/Grixis Delver, Death and Taxes, Eldrazi, UR Delver, Infect, Dragon Stompy, Shardless BUG, Leovold Control, Aggro Loam, Stoneblade, Show and Tell, Storm, Reanimator, Elves, Food Chain, Turbo Depths, and Aluren. Many of these came into being or gained prominence recently, showing that the meta was capable of evolving despite being overall stable. The meta was close to 33/33/33 split between Aggro/Tempo, Midrange/Control, and Combo. Blazing-fast combo decks were basically non-existent, as all of the top combo decks compromised speed for the reliability of being able to go toe-to-toe with Miracles in a longer game, leading to the average game-length for the format being something like 5.5 turns.
So why throw this away? Miracles' meta percentage over the past few months (15%) has been within 1 percentage point of its entire 2016 presence (14%), w which was only 2% up from its entire 2015 presence (12%). So the format hasn't gotten appreciably more centralized around Miracles. Recent major events have seen as many as 3 Miracles in the top 8 (EE17), but as few as 0 (EW16), so it's not like it's been consistently hogging the spotlight. Sure, there's the "Miracles Players Tend to Go to Time" issue, but that's been a known issue for literally the existence of Top. Why is it suddenly now a problem? (Also, I would posit that the solution to this problem is to be more aggressive in handing down slow play warnings to players who end up going to time in 2 or more matches in a tournament. I've played dozens of rounds of Miracles at tournaments and have literally never gone to time, it's not hard unless you're *trying* to stall.)
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Miracles was not healthy and Countertop was at a similar powerlevel of Oath/Survival before they got banned. I do believe Top should had been ban when Burn started to use Top. I started to used top in burn 2 years ago.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!