Welcome to the new and improved Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread!
The old thread can be found here.
This thread will serve as a place for ALL ban list discussion for the Legacy forum. It will be the place to discuss cards you think should be unbanned and a place to discuss currently legal cards that you think deserve to be banned.
There are a few extra rules that deal with this thread, PLEASE READ THEM!:
1) Any ban list discussion outside of this thread will be warned or infracted.
2) THINK BEFORE YOU POST. Make reasonable suggestions, with reasonable logic to back it up. Post that are reminiscent of "Necropotence seems fine" is going to be considered spam.
Similarly, post that are close to "I really like Black Vise, it should come off" are also considered spam.
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4) All MTGS Forum Rules and Legacy Forum Rules apply to this thread as well
5) Posting in this thread comes at the agreement that you've read the above.
For reference, here is the current ban list:
The following cards are banned in Legacy tournaments:
The new M13 blue card... If they knew this was a thing why didn't SnT get banned? They can possibly think that basically a strictly better Dream Halls (In this strategy) is a good thing...
I mean im not really saying that it is a really broken card, but ADDING to show and tell right after giving it Griselbrand? Giving it more options seems ridiculous...
Again the discussing about show tell ban???
They must think show tell is a ripping format like MM and survival foo.ittest did.
Show tell is good but not broken.
Have you READ the new card? I'm tempted to say I refuse to play in a format where both it and S&T are legal...
EDIT: Oh, and if you need another reason the card is crazy, it also beats Karakas. Sure, I'll just keep playing draw, emmy, go until I draw Gristel too.
The new M13 blue card... If they knew this was a thing why didn't SnT get banned? They can possibly think that basically a strictly better Dream Halls (In this strategy) is a good thing...
It's not better than dream halls. Dream halls can be hard cast, which means you dont NEED show and tell to get it into play. to run Omniscience in a dream halls style combo deck effectively makes it so you are running a 3 card combo, which is arguably strictly worse in every situation than a two card combo. Part of what makes the dream halls combo deck so strong is its consistency. Take that away and you have a sub par combo at best. This card does not kill your opponent. its different when you show and tell an emrakul or griselbrand into play because they are the win condition. This card requires a kill condition as well as the show and tell, making it a 3 card combo.
Yes you can show and tell this into play then play emrakul for free to win the game, but just show and telling emrakul into play does the same thing and requires one less card.
I'll repeat that, the new card is insane WITH (and only with) Show & Tell
Dream Halls can be feasibly casted in a legacy environment with the excel surrounding it, this brick of a card could only be cased if the opponent were to literally DO NOTHING for several turns.
Fauna Shaman essentially does the same thing, not to mention, the shaman is easier to get back from the graveyard.
Not only that, but with cards like Show and Tell and Hypergenesis still in the game, I don't see the reason to ban it any longer. It's not the powerhouse it once was, as lots of deck actually have a faster clock.
As much as I would like to play G/W survival, that isn't happening, the cards printed since then have only made it stronger (elesh-norn and loyal retainers seems good), and will be a card that only gets stronger.
This card will see no play in SnT, it is strictly win-more. It makes SnT à three card combo, similar to Hive Mind, except that you can cast hive mind without show and tell.
A deck play only with 4 show tell, and dream halls do the same, why are you so scary...
... just no. Have you read the new rules for this thread?
I mean, seriously man. Dream Halls is card disadvantage. This is not. Furthermore, to utilize Dream Halls effectively you need Conflux and Cruel Ultimatum and friends. For the new card, you play Emmy, Gristel, Iona, and then counterspells and filters. There's a huge difference when the card doesn't require a 10 card package, plus lets you use all the counterspells you wish for free.
I'll repeat that, the new card is insane WITH (and only with) Show & Tell
Dream Halls can be feasibly casted in a legacy environment with the excel surrounding it, this brick of a card could only be cased if the opponent were to literally DO NOTHING for several turns.
All said, I expect to be proven wrong.
It might be decent in a combo with Academy Rector, but you're point is right in essence. Let's ban S&T and get it over with.
This card will see no play in SnT, it is strictly win-more. It makes SnT à three card combo, similar to Hive Mind, except that you can cast hive mind without show and tell.
This card will not push SnT closer to a banning.
It's not win more as it gives you more resilience. You can play S&T normally, and then if you happen to also have this card in your hand, Karakas (one of the two or three cards S&T doesn't like) becomes a joke, plus all your counterspells are free to protect the dude you just dropped.
The thing that does Omniscience better than Dream Halls is cantripping for free. You basically only need SnT + Omniscience and you can start Brainstorming, Pondering and Preordaining all day until you find a fat creature. If it's Griselbrand, fine, use him to draw even more. If it's Big Emmy, you even get the extra turn.
I expect this card to make some waves in the Legacy format, which hopefully will result in a ban of SnT because it only gets better with every new set that comes out, while being borderline broken already as it is.
Oh dang, I forgot about that. You run 10-12 cantrips. They are now free, as are the fatties you find with them.
Omniscience is straight-up worse than Sneak Attack in SnT. You can cast Sneak Attack, but not Omniscience; Grizzlebees is slightly worse under Omniscience than SA; and Emrakul is a wash, since haste + annihilator 6 is the same thing as Time Walk + annihilator 6.
Omniscience might be broke in some weird Rector shell, maybe, but it doesn't do anything for SnT -- it's certainly no game-changer like Grizzlebees was. If there's a banning in Legacy soon, it'll be his fault, not this enchantment's fault.
So reasons why Omniscience will see play in Sneak and show or dream halls style decks:
Pitchable to FOW, unlike Sneak attack
Cards are CAST not put into play. Relevant with Emrakuls extra turn clause and potentially other eldrazi titans.
Makes all subsequent cards drawn with grizzlebees instantly playable and often better than they were. With griz in the past, unless you got him in on a sneak attack, you probably only won on the next turn unless you drew some crazy god hand, but even then it was often next turn. This makes girz win same turn, as well as makes emrakul give you an extra turn, which is just about the same as winning same turn. It also makes brainstorm that much better as it is now a free filter and does not consume the mana you dont have that turn.
I think it potentially makes some cards better than dreamhalls. Conflux becomes that much better and potentially there are other draw cards that also become as good if not better than conflux, such as Kozilek since he can be cast off this card and leaves a body. It also works with wheel effects and the like which we now have in the format.
Once again though, this card is a brick without Show and tell. Academy rector works for this card but it is no where near as strong, it is in an off color, and requires more work at a higher cmc. Eureka is the same story and since with eureka you can just slam your hand anyways.
Yes card synergies and combos should exist, but Show and tell simply makes too many cards read "I WIN". This is also one of those cards to me that made mystical tutor bannable, which is unfortunate because I never felt that card was AS crazy as this and there are already plenty of ways to play show and tell. I am almost surprised people have not adopted a main deck that runs 4 burning wish and 3 show and tells.
Grizzlebees is still in my eyes a candidate to be watched, but show and tell is well over the hump now.
Omniscience is straight-up worse than Sneak Attack in SnT. You can cast Sneak Attack, but not Omniscience; Grizzlebees is slightly worse under Omniscience than SA; and Emrakul is a wash, since haste + annihilator 6 is the same thing as Time Walk + annihilator 6.
Omniscience might be broke in some weird Rector shell, maybe, but it doesn't do anything for SnT -- it's certainly no game-changer like Grizzlebees was. If there's a banning in Legacy soon, it'll be his fault, not this enchantment's fault.
This is just false. A blue card that neutralizes Karakas would be decent in it's own right, but this does far more than that. I'm not saying it's broken, but it clearly puts S&T over the limit. Read my comments please, and try to address them.
I don't like it.
It's taking up even more space in an already tight deck, and its far from a replacement to Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack is there as a backup for Show and Tell (or sometimes the primary plan). Sneak Attack is actually playable at 4cmc + 1 to activate. This is just another unplayable mulligan without Show and Tell, and is it really worth adding?
I see it as winmore personally.
What are you going to cut to add it? You are either cutting fatties, Sneak Attacks, or protection. As I said above, Sneak Attack is not what you want to cut, because you are making the deck even less consistent. Do you cut fatties? I don't think you want to do that either. How many times have you had hands with one fatty + one enabler? Now imagine having Omniscience + SnT and no fatty. Or Sneak Attack + Omniscience. The great thing about the deck as it currently stands is that you are setting up a two card combo, with redundant pieces. With Omniscience you just forced yourself into a three card combo. Hive Mind is another SnT combo deck that also needs three pieces, but Hive Mind just auto wins the game. What about cutting protection? As the meta stands, you really don't want to be having less countermagic than the other blue decks. You are just begging to lose a counterwar over your key spell by doing that.
Maybe there are Magical Christmas Land hands that let you SnT + Omniscience + Emrakul + Griselbrand, swing in on your bonus turn for lethal. That's four cards right there, and the mana to cast the SnT is another 2-3 depending on if you have a Sol land. That's 6-7, and any protection bumps you up to 7-9 cards.
Know what's even easier? Sneak Attack + Griselbrand, draw into Lotus Petal + Emrakul, swing for lethal.
What? It makes your free counterspells freer? It gets around Karakas -- you know, like Sneak Attack already does?
You're "solving" problems that have already been solved, and you're doing it at the cost of relying more heavily on SnT. Dropping SA for Omni hurts your RUG matchup because you now only have one avenue of attack -- SnT.
What? It makes your free counterspells freer? It gets around Karakas -- you know, like Sneak Attack already does?
You're "solving" problems that have already been solved, and you're doing it at the cost of relying more heavily on SnT. Dropping SA for Omni hurts your RUG matchup because you now only have one avenue of attack -- SnT.
Oh, yeah. My apologies. I was thinking you bounce before attackers are declared and then you don't have a chance to Sneak him back, but that's wrong isn't it?
Quick off the top of my head (no testing and could be just horrible)
From sneak n show into dream n show
3 spell pierce becomes 3 omniscience
4 sneak attack becomes 4 dream halls
1 preordain and 2 lands become 3 grim monolith
Prob bad but I would def like to test it.
Edit: I do think omniscience will cause the end of show and tell.
I was thinking you bounce before attackers are declared and then you don't have a chance to Sneak him back, but that's wrong isn't it?
Yeah, no worries. In attack step, everyone has to pass priority consecutively to get to declare attackers; as long as you have RR open, Karakas is a non-starter.
I can see your point of view.
Still, compared to some of the current cards, it's not that strong. Nor is it that fast.
Compared to the other cards on the list, it's not even that back breaking.
Same with hermit druid... People already showed they don't really need it to go off after 1 turn and put everything in the yard.
Hermit Druid is a one card combo that wins if it lasts until your untap step. That's what makes it incredibly dangerous, despite his vulnerabilities.
He is four slots on his own, and the win is probably going to be something along the lines of 2 Narcomoeba, 1 Dread Return, 1 Lord of Extinction, 1 The Mimeoplasm, 1 Triskelion. The absolute lightest version of the win, including Hermit Druid himself is 10 slots. That leaves a TON of deck space to create a very resilient deck. Compare that to Sneak and Show, which is using 16 slots for its win, and needs to assemble a two card combo. You get six extra slots and you are using a one card combo. That's just crazy good.
Those six slots can be extra tutors, extra protection spells, or flexible slots that make the combo more consistent. Maybe extra Narcs, so you don't always have to Brainstorm a Narc back into your deck if you draw one, or a Bridge from Below + Cabal Therapies again allowing you to go off with combo pieces in hand (flashback Cabal Therapy with a Narc, get a zombie token to replace it, target yourself discarding a combo piece).
Omniscience isn't going to break the format. ATM it seems like it will best fit in Dream Halls, I surely won't be running it in sneakshow. There is a good chance it will create a completely new deck on its own, but again, it won't be anymore powerful than what exists and it will have consistency issues. Just like Griselbrand, the card is not unanswerable. Come on now people, like decks don't run counters? Enchantment removal doesn't exist? I really hope this thread doesn't devolve into exactly what the previous thread was.
Fauna Shaman essentially does the same thing, not to mention, the shaman is easier to get back from the graveyard.
Not only that, but with cards like Show and Tell and Hypergenesis still in the game, I don't see the reason to ban it any longer. It's not the powerhouse it once was, as lots of deck actually have a faster clock.
Fauna Shaman is strictly worst than Survival, the reason Survival was banned is because it is a very powerful card and was just waiting for the card to push it over the edge which happened to be Vengevine
Omniscience isn't going to break the format. ATM it seems like it will best fit in Dream Halls, I surely won't be running it in sneakshow. There is a good chance it will create a completely new deck on its own, but again, it won't be anymore powerful than what exists and it will have consistency issues.
Agreed, if anything I see the deck as being a U/W version of Sneak Show or U/W Dream Halls deck
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It's not a 3 card combo. It's a redundant piece, just like Sneak Attack. If you have show and tell and grizzlebrand in your hand you can just win the game as well, but if you have this it is a safer way to play
It solves Karakas because you are casting and gaining turns with Emrakul
It makes the cantrips your already playing pure free get your piece cards
I mean I'm not a sneak and show pilot but I'll tell you I can't imagine this card not seeing play. Maybe even if only as a 1 of, it's still going in that deck and still further breaking show and tell, because it is redundantly a wincon. An opening hand with this and show and tell and no creature is actually keepable because this makes the rest of your deck so much better. Your cantrips are free, your counters are more free, and all you need to do once this thing is in play is basically top deck into a win which is much easier with free cantrips.
Also it has been pointed out in the past when arguing yawgs bargian VS grizzlebrand, enchantments are just that much harder to deal with.
As long as Griselbrand is legal, I don't see why Yawgmoth's Bargain needs to be banned. Griselbrand is easier to get into play, plus a 7/7 flying lifelink creature. If Bargain were unbanned, I can't see why anyone would choose to play it over Griselbrand. The demon is just better all around, at least Bargain has a drawback of skipping your draw step. Necropotence has considerably more drawbacks than Griselbrand, skip your draw step, any card you discard is exiled, and you don't even get the cards until the beginning of your next end step. What's Griselbrand's drawback? An 8 CMC that you aren't going to pay anyway? U and 2 is much easier casting cost than trip black. Here's my vote to unban Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargin in legacy. I can't believe we're even having this conversation.
On another note, is anyone still frightened by a turn one black vise? That seems irrelevant when staring down a turn one Griselbrand. What's the worst that could happen?
The old thread can be found here.
This thread will serve as a place for ALL ban list discussion for the Legacy forum. It will be the place to discuss cards you think should be unbanned and a place to discuss currently legal cards that you think deserve to be banned.
There are a few extra rules that deal with this thread, PLEASE READ THEM!:
1) Any ban list discussion outside of this thread will be warned or infracted.
2) THINK BEFORE YOU POST. Make reasonable suggestions, with reasonable logic to back it up. Post that are reminiscent of "Necropotence seems fine" is going to be considered spam.
Similarly, post that are close to "I really like Black Vise, it should come off" are also considered spam.
3) Flaming is not tolerated at MTGS, but more-so here. Any attacks on another user will be an automatic infractable offense. I understand discussion gets heated and I understand that some users can be unreasonable. If you feel a user is spamming, flaming, or provoking a flame war (trolling) then just report the post and walk away. THE MODS WILL DEAL WITH IT.
4) All MTGS Forum Rules and Legacy Forum Rules apply to this thread as well
5) Posting in this thread comes at the agreement that you've read the above.
For reference, here is the current ban list:
The following cards are banned in Legacy tournaments:
- Amulet of Quoz
- Ancestral Recall
- Balance
- Bazaar of Baghdad
- Black Lotus
- Black Vise
- Bronze Tablet
- Channel
- Chaos Orb
- Contract from Below
- Darkpact
- Demonic Attorney
- Demonic Consultation
- Demonic Tutor
- Earthcraft
- Falling Star
- Fastbond
- Flash
- Frantic Search
- Goblin Recruiter
- Gush
- Hermit Druid
- Imperial Seal
- Jeweled Bird
- Library of Alexandria
- Mana Crypt
- Mana Drain
- Mana Vault
- Memory Jar
- Mental Misstep
- Mind Twist
- Mind's Desire
- Mishra's Workshop
- Mox Emerald
- Mox Jet
- Mox Pearl
- Mox Ruby
- Mox Sapphire
- Mystical Tutor
- Necropotence
- Oath of Druids
- Rebirth
- Shahrazad
- Skullclamp
- Sol Ring
- Strip Mine
- Survival of the Fittest
- Tempest Efreet
- Time Vault
- Time Walk
- Timetwister
- Timmerian Fiends
- Tinker
- Tolarian Academy
- Vampiric Tutor
- Wheel of Fortune
- Windfall
- Worldgorger Dragon
- Yawgmoth's Bargain
- Yawgmoth's Will
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The new M13 blue card... If they knew this was a thing why didn't SnT get banned? They can possibly think that basically a strictly better Dream Halls (In this strategy) is a good thing...
Have you READ the new card? I'm tempted to say I refuse to play in a format where both it and S&T are legal...
EDIT: Oh, and if you need another reason the card is crazy, it also beats Karakas. Sure, I'll just keep playing draw, emmy, go until I draw Gristel too.
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It's not better than dream halls. Dream halls can be hard cast, which means you dont NEED show and tell to get it into play. to run Omniscience in a dream halls style combo deck effectively makes it so you are running a 3 card combo, which is arguably strictly worse in every situation than a two card combo. Part of what makes the dream halls combo deck so strong is its consistency. Take that away and you have a sub par combo at best. This card does not kill your opponent. its different when you show and tell an emrakul or griselbrand into play because they are the win condition. This card requires a kill condition as well as the show and tell, making it a 3 card combo.
Yes you can show and tell this into play then play emrakul for free to win the game, but just show and telling emrakul into play does the same thing and requires one less card.
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I'll repeat that, the new card is insane WITH (and only with) Show & Tell
Dream Halls can be feasibly casted in a legacy environment with the excel surrounding it, this brick of a card could only be cased if the opponent were to literally DO NOTHING for several turns.
All said, I expect to be proven wrong.
As much as I would like to play G/W survival, that isn't happening, the cards printed since then have only made it stronger (elesh-norn and loyal retainers seems good), and will be a card that only gets stronger.
Sad but true.
This card will not push SnT closer to a banning.
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... just no. Have you read the new rules for this thread?
I mean, seriously man. Dream Halls is card disadvantage. This is not. Furthermore, to utilize Dream Halls effectively you need Conflux and Cruel Ultimatum and friends. For the new card, you play Emmy, Gristel, Iona, and then counterspells and filters. There's a huge difference when the card doesn't require a 10 card package, plus lets you use all the counterspells you wish for free.
It might be decent in a combo with Academy Rector, but you're point is right in essence. Let's ban S&T and get it over with.
It's not win more as it gives you more resilience. You can play S&T normally, and then if you happen to also have this card in your hand, Karakas (one of the two or three cards S&T doesn't like) becomes a joke, plus all your counterspells are free to protect the dude you just dropped.
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Oh dang, I forgot about that. You run 10-12 cantrips. They are now free, as are the fatties you find with them.
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Omniscience might be broke in some weird Rector shell, maybe, but it doesn't do anything for SnT -- it's certainly no game-changer like Grizzlebees was. If there's a banning in Legacy soon, it'll be his fault, not this enchantment's fault.
Once again though, this card is a brick without Show and tell. Academy rector works for this card but it is no where near as strong, it is in an off color, and requires more work at a higher cmc. Eureka is the same story and since with eureka you can just slam your hand anyways.
Yes card synergies and combos should exist, but Show and tell simply makes too many cards read "I WIN". This is also one of those cards to me that made mystical tutor bannable, which is unfortunate because I never felt that card was AS crazy as this and there are already plenty of ways to play show and tell. I am almost surprised people have not adopted a main deck that runs 4 burning wish and 3 show and tells.
Grizzlebees is still in my eyes a candidate to be watched, but show and tell is well over the hump now.
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This is just false. A blue card that neutralizes Karakas would be decent in it's own right, but this does far more than that. I'm not saying it's broken, but it clearly puts S&T over the limit. Read my comments please, and try to address them.
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It's taking up even more space in an already tight deck, and its far from a replacement to Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack is there as a backup for Show and Tell (or sometimes the primary plan). Sneak Attack is actually playable at 4cmc + 1 to activate. This is just another unplayable mulligan without Show and Tell, and is it really worth adding?
I see it as winmore personally.
What are you going to cut to add it? You are either cutting fatties, Sneak Attacks, or protection. As I said above, Sneak Attack is not what you want to cut, because you are making the deck even less consistent. Do you cut fatties? I don't think you want to do that either. How many times have you had hands with one fatty + one enabler? Now imagine having Omniscience + SnT and no fatty. Or Sneak Attack + Omniscience. The great thing about the deck as it currently stands is that you are setting up a two card combo, with redundant pieces. With Omniscience you just forced yourself into a three card combo. Hive Mind is another SnT combo deck that also needs three pieces, but Hive Mind just auto wins the game. What about cutting protection? As the meta stands, you really don't want to be having less countermagic than the other blue decks. You are just begging to lose a counterwar over your key spell by doing that.
Maybe there are Magical Christmas Land hands that let you SnT + Omniscience + Emrakul + Griselbrand, swing in on your bonus turn for lethal. That's four cards right there, and the mana to cast the SnT is another 2-3 depending on if you have a Sol land. That's 6-7, and any protection bumps you up to 7-9 cards.
Know what's even easier? Sneak Attack + Griselbrand, draw into Lotus Petal + Emrakul, swing for lethal.
What? It makes your free counterspells freer? It gets around Karakas -- you know, like Sneak Attack already does?
You're "solving" problems that have already been solved, and you're doing it at the cost of relying more heavily on SnT. Dropping SA for Omni hurts your RUG matchup because you now only have one avenue of attack -- SnT.
Oh, yeah. My apologies. I was thinking you bounce before attackers are declared and then you don't have a chance to Sneak him back, but that's wrong isn't it?
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From sneak n show into dream n show
3 spell pierce becomes 3 omniscience
4 sneak attack becomes 4 dream halls
1 preordain and 2 lands become 3 grim monolith
Prob bad but I would def like to test it.
Edit: I do think omniscience will cause the end of show and tell.
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Yeah, no worries. In attack step, everyone has to pass priority consecutively to get to declare attackers; as long as you have RR open, Karakas is a non-starter.
dream halls can act as show and tell 5-8
Hermit Druid is a one card combo that wins if it lasts until your untap step. That's what makes it incredibly dangerous, despite his vulnerabilities.
He is four slots on his own, and the win is probably going to be something along the lines of 2 Narcomoeba, 1 Dread Return, 1 Lord of Extinction, 1 The Mimeoplasm, 1 Triskelion. The absolute lightest version of the win, including Hermit Druid himself is 10 slots. That leaves a TON of deck space to create a very resilient deck. Compare that to Sneak and Show, which is using 16 slots for its win, and needs to assemble a two card combo. You get six extra slots and you are using a one card combo. That's just crazy good.
Those six slots can be extra tutors, extra protection spells, or flexible slots that make the combo more consistent. Maybe extra Narcs, so you don't always have to Brainstorm a Narc back into your deck if you draw one, or a Bridge from Below + Cabal Therapies again allowing you to go off with combo pieces in hand (flashback Cabal Therapy with a Narc, get a zombie token to replace it, target yourself discarding a combo piece).
Fauna Shaman is strictly worst than Survival, the reason Survival was banned is because it is a very powerful card and was just waiting for the card to push it over the edge which happened to be Vengevine
You wouldn't if anything I can see a U/W Show and Rector deck being built with the end goal of Omniscience
Agreed, if anything I see the deck as being a U/W version of Sneak Show or U/W Dream Halls deck
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Hermit Druid Combo:
It solves Karakas because you are casting and gaining turns with Emrakul
It makes the cantrips your already playing pure free get your piece cards
I mean I'm not a sneak and show pilot but I'll tell you I can't imagine this card not seeing play. Maybe even if only as a 1 of, it's still going in that deck and still further breaking show and tell, because it is redundantly a wincon. An opening hand with this and show and tell and no creature is actually keepable because this makes the rest of your deck so much better. Your cantrips are free, your counters are more free, and all you need to do once this thing is in play is basically top deck into a win which is much easier with free cantrips.
Also it has been pointed out in the past when arguing yawgs bargian VS grizzlebrand, enchantments are just that much harder to deal with.
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On another note, is anyone still frightened by a turn one black vise? That seems irrelevant when staring down a turn one Griselbrand. What's the worst that could happen?