My personal opinion is that Legacy lets you use 99% of Magic Cards and would be better if it was only 97% whereas Modern only allows 50% and would be so much better if it was 75%. There is about two years of cards between the Reserved List ending and Modern starting. (all numbers approximate)
For me Modern seems to have all the interesting post-reserve list non-creature cards either banned (Ponder, Sword of the Meek, Bitterblossom) or not available (Meekstone, Counterspell, Port).
Do you even play Legacy? Because your post oozes out ignorance. While Turn 1 Wins happens, it happens rarely, and when they do, people have answers to it like Force of Will which is a staple in all Blue decks. Guess what, Legacy is a Blue color format. Even without FoW, pretty much every deck has some form of disruption to prevent Combo from doing its thing
And why is Force of Will such a commonly used card? It's because Turn 1-2 wins are expected, which is exactly my point. What I'm saying is that the average player does not want have to face the prospect of turn 1-2 wins.
And why is Force of Will such a commonly used card? It's because Turn 1-2 wins are expected, which is exactly my point. What I'm saying is that the average player does not want have to face the prospect of turn 1-2 wins.
We get it that you love modern. Listing mediocre cards isn't helping anything. Force is commonly used because it's a good card and without then people can just play glass cannon decks that would win turn 1 or turn 2 more often. I also hear it's pretty good in tempo decks. Currently there's only a few decks that can win turn 1, and most of those are easy to disrupt. Turn 1/2 wins are not expected. Maybe you should give the format a try.
And why is Force of Will such a commonly used card? It's because Turn 1-2 wins are expected, which is exactly my point. What I'm saying is that the average player does not want have to face the prospect of turn 1-2 wins.
As the number of cards in a format increases, so too does the number of available combos. Most will be crap, but there is a good percentage of interactions that will be powerful enough to win games. Do you suggest we ban these combos out of the format the way the DCI has done with modern? Not to mention, attempting to print cards that don't create combos is practically impossible, and has resulted in safe, boring design from wizards over the past few sets. You realise that this stage, rituals and tutors are effectively extinct, and only the creatures are being pushed, right? Everything in modern is homogenised around midrange, and the format is skewed towards GBR. But hey, at least no one is having their spells countered, because that would be unfun!
Modern is a bad format that can't regulate itself, because the tools to do so simply don't exist. I would love it if were actually viable and fun, but I don't want to play a format where playing blue means being unfairly disadvantaged, and where hypocritical bannings are used to shape the format so that it looks like WotC's sanitised version of 'fun'. I'll take the format that's balanced, and has a diversity of strategies in it, thanks. What wizards are attempting with modern isn't possible, and the fact that the format has been a lame dog careening from one unbalanced meta to another since its inception after several years is testament to that fact.
Arguing whether modern or legacy is better is foolish, They are completely different formats each with upsides and downsides. There is no definite answer to which format is more fun, or better to play. We just know that wizards is supporting modern but not legacy, we also know legacy prices are going up. Those are two things that are driving people away from the format. The future of legacy is all dependent on the success of modern.
If modern becomes more available to play and wizards keeps reprinting staples, well, people are going to play that over legacy.
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"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not." - John Lennon
If you have been playing magic for awhile, and you feel like your up to the challenge I highly encourage you playing legacy. i know its expensive. Recently its gotten some bad press, and people are choosing to play modern over legacy due to cost reason. Fristly, legacy is not as bad as you may think cost wise over modern. Most of the cards that are incredibly expensive for what they do are so because they are played in BOTH formats! Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Liliana of the veil are all good examples of this. The lands are of course the biggest expense, but over time you can these if you are patient and trade your way into them.
Legacy is also a very skill intensive format. Knowledge of the meta, knowing how to play your list vs all archetypes these are things that separate good magic players from average magic players. Nowhere are those two things more important than legacy. The power level of some combos are so great that you can simply just die on turn 1. Misplays become very very bad. Its not a very forgiving format....it requires you to know what the hell your doing.
I see people fire selling cards at rotation and getting completely waxed and they don't even know it. I remember a few years back a friend of mine was buying Jace, the Mind Sculptor for probably 30-40 bucks each, and people thought he was crazy!!. Now look at his price tag. If you want to play anything blue in legacy now, thats 450-600 bucks out of pocket just for a playset of that one card.
Do you even play Legacy? Because your post oozes out ignorance. While Turn 1 Wins happens, it happens rarely, and when they do, people have answers to it like Force of Will which is a staple in all Blue decks. Guess what, Legacy is a Blue color format. Even without FoW, pretty much every deck has some form of disruption to prevent Combo from doing its thing
Well id say it was a blue format until we got 2 cards....liliana of the veil and deathrite shaman. Now black is arguably the most powerful color in legacy. Blue can free counter and against turn 1s thats pretty good. But black can disrupt the hand, and if they dont get you on turn 1 and you have a hand full of discard spells...thats just as devastating.
95% of every deck that is worth a damn in legacy runs blue or black it seems. Disruption is key. Hell even decks that traditionally run neither one of those colors now are eg. Dark Maverick...lol Splash black for confidant and thoughtseize...yessir.
Most people posting here I fear have never played the format. They like to trash it because of its price yadayada yada. But there is a reason why the best players in the world play legacy. Its like turning the difficulty level of your game up a few notches.
I can hardly imagine that the people who already own Legacy decks and attend Legacy tournaments would suddenly stop doing that and convert strictly to Modern. While Modern indeed is the popular destination among newbies, as time goes by people usually start playing Legacy as well (if their budget allows that, of course). Sans Legacy, I have participated in lots of Standard, Modern and even Old Extended tournaments and nowadays I'm only playing Legacy. I don't have time for all the formats and I honestly don't see a point to play formats with loads of restrictions.
If wizards keep reprinting staples, it will make Legacy more accessible as well.
To sum up, I think that neither format is at risk of vanishing mainly because they all attract different kinds of people and some people play more than one format.
Really, neither format is at risk of dying. However, as magic becomes more and more popular newer people are going to come into the game. Modern will probably be the format of choice.
As for the reprinted staples makes both formats more accessible it hurts that legacy as has several unreprintable staples that are getting increasingly expensive.
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And why is Force of Will such a commonly used card? It's because Turn 1-2 wins are expected, which is exactly my point. What I'm saying is that the average player does not want have to face the prospect of turn 1-2 wins.
Everything in your posts seems to indicate you have never played a single game of Legacy and all your arguments come down to conjecture and a biased opinion.
Turn 1 and 2 wins are expected? More like they *can* occur, but they are outliers. Then you're saying "That is why people have to play Force of Will!" You're using circular logic that is flawed at best and in reality is misinformed.
If Legacy were dominated by Turn 1 and Turn 2 wins then the format would be mostly Char Belcher and Spanish Inquisition. Instead, as we can statistically see, the format is mostly Aggro (citation: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE). You can clearly see on the right side that 43% of Legacy decks Top 8'ing are Aggro and Combo is only 32% with Goblin Charbelcher at a whopping 1%!
This graph also shows that Legacy is one of the healthiest formats with a reasonable breakdown of Aggro/Control/Combo and a relatively stable banlist. The community and meta are self-regulating and for the most part, Wizards hasn't done anything. By the inverse you have Modern where Wizards is putting their hands into everything and look how that's turning out with a laughable banlist and pro players saying in public that they don't like playing Modern, but they have to during Modern season.
It's pointless to truly compare formats. I will admit though, when Modern was formally announced, I thought it marked the inevitable death of Legacy. What I WASN'T expecting was the very strong hand WotC is playing in shaping that format.
Honestly, I think the entire "modern face" card-pool could indeed be as good as legacy but I will not delve into that format's bannings, etc. Legacy works because as the OP suggests, it IS organic. Legacy veterans are quite knowledgable about the format. There is also a sense of "this is 99% of Magic's entire cardpool...let's make a deck".
I estimated Legacy to crumble ~3-5 years after Modern's formal announcement. While I still feel Legacy will wither away over time (mainly price-inflation and not being able to host large-scale events), Modern is NOT growing as I expected it to. Had that format been Legacy-lite, perhaps the narrative would be different than what is happening today. Modern has become a separate entity, which is what WotC wanted. Instead of competition, the two can co-exist side by side. Nevertheless, I have a real sense the pent-up MTG market will eventually muscle out most players a la vintage. Vintage still exists...but good luck finding an event or cards to trade for.
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10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
And why is Force of Will such a commonly used card? It's because Turn 1-2 wins are expected, which is exactly my point. What I'm saying is that the average player does not want have to face the prospect of turn 1-2 wins.
Force of will is a commonly used card because its the best counter spell.
Just like how Lightning bolt is the best direct damage spell
Just like how Swords to plowshares is the best removal
Just like how Tarmogoyf is the best beater
Why?
Because they are the most cost efficient of their counterparts.
Force of will can be used in a variety of ways beyond, "don't kill me turn 1 or 2" They can be used to protect a stoneforge mystic after tapping out, they can stop a liliana of the veil when you're tapped out. The can stop a turn 1 deathrite shaman while you're on the draw. It can stop a turn 1 blood moon.
None of those plays are turn 1 or turn 2 kills. A manaless counter is useful through out the whole game. Amazing isn't it? I hope I was able to broaden your imagination and provide you some enlightenment to the format.
I would play the crap out of modern if they hadn't banned almost every single card I want to play.
Brainstorm and Cabal Therapy are probably my favorite cards of all time. There's probably a hundred ways to make a mistake every time you draw one of them. From what I've played of modern, there's little interaction. There're few opportunities to be clever -- to do something that feels brilliant, or to learn something that you should have known, but you've been too dumb to figure out.
Stoneforge, Top, Nacatl, Ritual, etc... They don't want modern to be the "best standard decks" of old. Except, the best standard decks are the best synergistic interactions. That's what made them powerful. Those were the parts of the game that you needed to master to succeed. You need to know how to deal with these cards! You can't do that if they are banned.
And frankly, I don't want to be the best player in the kiddie pool.
Force of will is a commonly used card because its the best counter spell.
Just like how Lightning bolt is the best direct damage spell
Just like how Swords to plowshares is the best removal
Just like how Tarmogoyf is the best beater
Why?
Because they are the most cost efficient of their counterparts.
I'm not sure if Force of Will is the most "cost efficient" counterspell ever made. In a strict sense I would argue that counterspell holds that title. In a vacuum Force of Will is actually a bad card, but we all know that the context of a format will make objectively bad cards contextually powerful, sometimes staples even as is the case with Force of Will in Legacy and Vintage. Maybe Force of Will is more cost efficient than Counterspell considering the nature of the format though.
Mana Drain is the most cost effective counter. End of story.
Force is the best one to play with as the threat you have one is something that has to be played around. All you need to threaten a counter is 2 life and two cards. That means you can go all in on your plan tap out and yet still force the opponents line of play. This is what makes Force so powerful.
brainstorm and cabal therapy were never printed in a modern legal set
clearly FOW is more cost efficient than counter spell, since counter spell isn't played. You're over thinking it.
Mana drain, not legacy legal. doesn't belong in this discussion, but very cute. (we are in a legacy discussion, but its arguable that mana drain may not be good enough for legacy, holding UU open is pretty hard for a lot of decks.)
brainstorm and cabal therapy were never printed in a modern legal set
...which is one of the (few, but important) reasons Modern isn't much fun, in my opinion. I wouldn't necessarily call these cards too good for Modern, but I would call them very important for testing play skill and teaching the game.
clearly FOW is more cost efficient than counter spell, since counter spell isn't played. You're over thinking it.
You're under thinking it.
Force of Will is actually a bad card that forces you to go two-for-one against yourself at the cost of one life. You only play it because it's great against combo decks which went four or more for that one you plan to spend two cards on.
It's a combo killer that's a safety blanket for people who like to tap out.
And if you want to talk efficent beaters: The top three in the game are (in ascending order) Phyrexian Dreadnought at 12 to one. Death's Shadow at 13 to one, and lastly the most efficent ever of Memnite at infinity to none! Goyf's at most Six to two looks rather meh by comparison.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
You're under thinking it.
Force of Will is actually a bad card that forces you to go two-for-one against yourself at the cost of one life. You only play it because it's great against combo decks which went four or more for that one you plan to spend two cards on.
It's a combo killer that's a safety blanket for people who like to tap out.
And if you want to talk efficent beaters: The top three in the game are (in ascending order) Phyrexian Dreadnought at 12 to one. Death's Shadow at 13 to one, and lastly the most efficent ever of Memnite at infinity to none! Goyf's at most Six to two looks rather meh by comparison.
Funny, very very funny. Force is not a bad card, because the most powerful aspect is the THREAT it creates more than the damage it wreaks. Another control deck has to play around it. Combo has to make allowances. Aggro has to decide if they care at all tho. Force is a card that eats card advantage while letting you pick what cards your opponent can play. Let me sum it up this way. I start on 5 and for that you get the best card in your hand removed and your mana set back a turn. Sounds good to me.
As for the beaters. Yea, right. Dreadnought had his own deck, it's fringe at best. Shadow shows up from time to time, but it's not exactly a saving grace and Memnite? Meh. It's going to shine where it fits, but it is not worth the time of day outside a dedicated deck.
No the best beater in the format is a one drop Goblin that cheats mana costs. Second best is a one drop blue flyer. Then third, a 2 drop green guy with some massive pain attached.
Funny, very very funny. Force is not a bad card, because the most powerful aspect is the THREAT it creates more than the damage it wreaks. Another control deck has to play around it. Combo has to make allowances. Aggro has to decide if they care at all tho. Force is a card that eats card advantage while letting you pick what cards your opponent can play. Let me sum it up this way. I start on 5 and for that you get the best card in your hand removed and your mana set back a turn. Sounds good to me.
It't worthless against any deck playing fair, where you mulligan to five so they can go to six. If you want to get the best card so bad that you're willing to blow two cards for it, then may I recommend one of the many premier discard spells of the format?
It's a niche card that's very effective for what it does, and gets too much hype for being a "free" counter. When you're not playing with/against combo every use of Force of Will just isn't efficient. When your opponent isn't going two-for-one to win, you're not helping yourself to go two-for-one to stop them.
As for the beaters. Yea, right. Dreadnought had his own deck, it's fringe at best. Shadow shows up from time to time, but it's not exactly a saving grace and Memnite? Meh. It's going to shine where it fits, but it is not worth the time of day outside a dedicated deck.
No the best beater in the format is a one drop Goblin that cheats mana costs. Second best is a one drop blue flyer. Then third, a 2 drop green guy with some massive pain attached.
Tormod said goyf was the most cost efficient beater. That's not true. The three I posted are the most cost efficient beaters. Don't read any harder into it.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
Force is a card you need to play against before you get the right to say it's bad. If you play against it and still say it's bad then you need to play against better players. No deck truly plays "Fair". Vial decks abuse mana curves, Delver tend to abuse a mass of spells, he'll even Zoo has a fun time abusing mana curves and burning you out. Each deck will have something they font want counted. They just recover better than most.
As for "Don't read more into it". Man, the best beater is not the one with the highest number in the power box. The 15 is not what makes Emmy so strong. It's the "Sac 6 permanents" that makes it strong
In the case of Dreadnought, you need at least a Stifle to make it work. Without that it's not going to do a thing. This is a game where you have to read the fine print and the fine print says that card ain't worth using.
Anyway, you have made up your mind so feel free to post again about how wrong I am. But hay, it's not like I actually play the format or anything. But I know your point of view will not change because you have no understanding of what you are commenting on. So, I shall not bother to try again.
No one mentioned Guide because the drawback of giving free land to your opponent is so bad that only the most aggressive of Aggro decks are ok with it. If you even remotely planing for a mid game, making sure your opponent does not miss a land drop is more painful to you than 2 damage is to them.
Modern is for. Modern is there as a Legacy with a lower power-level so that people who don't want to deal with incredibly fast combos and stupidly powerful answers can play in a non-rotating format.
Put another way, Modern is for people who don't understand the subtleties and intricacies of Legacy.
Anyway, you have made up your mind so feel free to post again about how wrong I am. But hay, it's not like I actually play the format or anything. But I know your point of view will not change because you have no understanding of what you are commenting on. So, I shall not bother to try again.
I personally like it how there are less cards in Modern. In Legacy, you have so many options that new sets don't always change the format. There were no Legacy playables in Dragon's Maze and M14, and the Legacy playables in Theros don't seem they have changed much. In Modern, Dragon's Maze gave us Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Beck/Call and Voice of Resurgence (And Voice of Resurgence changed the format a lot). M14 gave us Young Pyromancer, Scavenging Ooze, and Chandra, Pyromaster (Scavenging Ooze changed the format more than any card since Deathrite Shaman). Theros gave us Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Swan Song, Steam Augury, Anger of the Gods, Stormbreath Dragon, Polukranos, World Eater, Destructive Revelry, and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver as potentially playable cards.
And why is Force of Will such a commonly used card? It's because Turn 1-2 wins are expected, which is exactly my point. What I'm saying is that the average player does not want have to face the prospect of turn 1-2 wins.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
We get it that you love modern. Listing mediocre cards isn't helping anything. Force is commonly used because it's a good card and without then people can just play glass cannon decks that would win turn 1 or turn 2 more often. I also hear it's pretty good in tempo decks. Currently there's only a few decks that can win turn 1, and most of those are easy to disrupt. Turn 1/2 wins are not expected. Maybe you should give the format a try.
As the number of cards in a format increases, so too does the number of available combos. Most will be crap, but there is a good percentage of interactions that will be powerful enough to win games. Do you suggest we ban these combos out of the format the way the DCI has done with modern? Not to mention, attempting to print cards that don't create combos is practically impossible, and has resulted in safe, boring design from wizards over the past few sets. You realise that this stage, rituals and tutors are effectively extinct, and only the creatures are being pushed, right? Everything in modern is homogenised around midrange, and the format is skewed towards GBR. But hey, at least no one is having their spells countered, because that would be unfun!
Modern is a bad format that can't regulate itself, because the tools to do so simply don't exist. I would love it if were actually viable and fun, but I don't want to play a format where playing blue means being unfairly disadvantaged, and where hypocritical bannings are used to shape the format so that it looks like WotC's sanitised version of 'fun'. I'll take the format that's balanced, and has a diversity of strategies in it, thanks. What wizards are attempting with modern isn't possible, and the fact that the format has been a lame dog careening from one unbalanced meta to another since its inception after several years is testament to that fact.
If modern becomes more available to play and wizards keeps reprinting staples, well, people are going to play that over legacy.
Legacy is also a very skill intensive format. Knowledge of the meta, knowing how to play your list vs all archetypes these are things that separate good magic players from average magic players. Nowhere are those two things more important than legacy. The power level of some combos are so great that you can simply just die on turn 1. Misplays become very very bad. Its not a very forgiving format....it requires you to know what the hell your doing.
I see people fire selling cards at rotation and getting completely waxed and they don't even know it. I remember a few years back a friend of mine was buying Jace, the Mind Sculptor for probably 30-40 bucks each, and people thought he was crazy!!. Now look at his price tag. If you want to play anything blue in legacy now, thats 450-600 bucks out of pocket just for a playset of that one card.
Well id say it was a blue format until we got 2 cards....liliana of the veil and deathrite shaman. Now black is arguably the most powerful color in legacy. Blue can free counter and against turn 1s thats pretty good. But black can disrupt the hand, and if they dont get you on turn 1 and you have a hand full of discard spells...thats just as devastating.
95% of every deck that is worth a damn in legacy runs blue or black it seems. Disruption is key. Hell even decks that traditionally run neither one of those colors now are eg. Dark Maverick...lol Splash black for confidant and thoughtseize...yessir.
Most people posting here I fear have never played the format. They like to trash it because of its price yadayada yada. But there is a reason why the best players in the world play legacy. Its like turning the difficulty level of your game up a few notches.
BUGShardless SultaiBUG
Modern
URSplinter TwinUR
BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
Standard
URWJeskai TokensURW
Really, neither format is at risk of dying. However, as magic becomes more and more popular newer people are going to come into the game. Modern will probably be the format of choice.
As for the reprinted staples makes both formats more accessible it hurts that legacy as has several unreprintable staples that are getting increasingly expensive.
Everything in your posts seems to indicate you have never played a single game of Legacy and all your arguments come down to conjecture and a biased opinion.
Turn 1 and 2 wins are expected? More like they *can* occur, but they are outliers. Then you're saying "That is why people have to play Force of Will!" You're using circular logic that is flawed at best and in reality is misinformed.
If Legacy were dominated by Turn 1 and Turn 2 wins then the format would be mostly Char Belcher and Spanish Inquisition. Instead, as we can statistically see, the format is mostly Aggro (citation: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE). You can clearly see on the right side that 43% of Legacy decks Top 8'ing are Aggro and Combo is only 32% with Goblin Charbelcher at a whopping 1%!
This graph also shows that Legacy is one of the healthiest formats with a reasonable breakdown of Aggro/Control/Combo and a relatively stable banlist. The community and meta are self-regulating and for the most part, Wizards hasn't done anything. By the inverse you have Modern where Wizards is putting their hands into everything and look how that's turning out with a laughable banlist and pro players saying in public that they don't like playing Modern, but they have to during Modern season.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Honestly, I think the entire "modern face" card-pool could indeed be as good as legacy but I will not delve into that format's bannings, etc. Legacy works because as the OP suggests, it IS organic. Legacy veterans are quite knowledgable about the format. There is also a sense of "this is 99% of Magic's entire cardpool...let's make a deck".
I estimated Legacy to crumble ~3-5 years after Modern's formal announcement. While I still feel Legacy will wither away over time (mainly price-inflation and not being able to host large-scale events), Modern is NOT growing as I expected it to. Had that format been Legacy-lite, perhaps the narrative would be different than what is happening today. Modern has become a separate entity, which is what WotC wanted. Instead of competition, the two can co-exist side by side. Nevertheless, I have a real sense the pent-up MTG market will eventually muscle out most players a la vintage. Vintage still exists...but good luck finding an event or cards to trade for.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Force of will is a commonly used card because its the best counter spell.
Just like how Lightning bolt is the best direct damage spell
Just like how Swords to plowshares is the best removal
Just like how Tarmogoyf is the best beater
Why?
Because they are the most cost efficient of their counterparts.
Force of will can be used in a variety of ways beyond, "don't kill me turn 1 or 2" They can be used to protect a stoneforge mystic after tapping out, they can stop a liliana of the veil when you're tapped out. The can stop a turn 1 deathrite shaman while you're on the draw. It can stop a turn 1 blood moon.
None of those plays are turn 1 or turn 2 kills. A manaless counter is useful through out the whole game. Amazing isn't it? I hope I was able to broaden your imagination and provide you some enlightenment to the format.
Brainstorm and Cabal Therapy are probably my favorite cards of all time. There's probably a hundred ways to make a mistake every time you draw one of them. From what I've played of modern, there's little interaction. There're few opportunities to be clever -- to do something that feels brilliant, or to learn something that you should have known, but you've been too dumb to figure out.
Stoneforge, Top, Nacatl, Ritual, etc... They don't want modern to be the "best standard decks" of old. Except, the best standard decks are the best synergistic interactions. That's what made them powerful. Those were the parts of the game that you needed to master to succeed. You need to know how to deal with these cards! You can't do that if they are banned.
And frankly, I don't want to be the best player in the kiddie pool.
I'm not sure if Force of Will is the most "cost efficient" counterspell ever made. In a strict sense I would argue that counterspell holds that title. In a vacuum Force of Will is actually a bad card, but we all know that the context of a format will make objectively bad cards contextually powerful, sometimes staples even as is the case with Force of Will in Legacy and Vintage. Maybe Force of Will is more cost efficient than Counterspell considering the nature of the format though.
Currently Playing and/or Building:
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG BUG
BUG Team America BUG
UBRG Cabal ANT UBRG
Force is the best one to play with as the threat you have one is something that has to be played around. All you need to threaten a counter is 2 life and two cards. That means you can go all in on your plan tap out and yet still force the opponents line of play. This is what makes Force so powerful.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
clearly FOW is more cost efficient than counter spell, since counter spell isn't played. You're over thinking it.
Mana drain, not legacy legal. doesn't belong in this discussion, but very cute. (we are in a legacy discussion, but its arguable that mana drain may not be good enough for legacy, holding UU open is pretty hard for a lot of decks.)
...which is one of the (few, but important) reasons Modern isn't much fun, in my opinion. I wouldn't necessarily call these cards too good for Modern, but I would call them very important for testing play skill and teaching the game.
You're under thinking it.
Force of Will is actually a bad card that forces you to go two-for-one against yourself at the cost of one life. You only play it because it's great against combo decks which went four or more for that one you plan to spend two cards on.
It's a combo killer that's a safety blanket for people who like to tap out.
And if you want to talk efficent beaters: The top three in the game are (in ascending order) Phyrexian Dreadnought at 12 to one. Death's Shadow at 13 to one, and lastly the most efficent ever of Memnite at infinity to none! Goyf's at most Six to two looks rather meh by comparison.
Funny, very very funny. Force is not a bad card, because the most powerful aspect is the THREAT it creates more than the damage it wreaks. Another control deck has to play around it. Combo has to make allowances. Aggro has to decide if they care at all tho. Force is a card that eats card advantage while letting you pick what cards your opponent can play. Let me sum it up this way. I start on 5 and for that you get the best card in your hand removed and your mana set back a turn. Sounds good to me.
As for the beaters. Yea, right. Dreadnought had his own deck, it's fringe at best. Shadow shows up from time to time, but it's not exactly a saving grace and Memnite? Meh. It's going to shine where it fits, but it is not worth the time of day outside a dedicated deck.
No the best beater in the format is a one drop Goblin that cheats mana costs. Second best is a one drop blue flyer. Then third, a 2 drop green guy with some massive pain attached.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
It't worthless against any deck playing fair, where you mulligan to five so they can go to six. If you want to get the best card so bad that you're willing to blow two cards for it, then may I recommend one of the many premier discard spells of the format?
It's a niche card that's very effective for what it does, and gets too much hype for being a "free" counter. When you're not playing with/against combo every use of Force of Will just isn't efficient. When your opponent isn't going two-for-one to win, you're not helping yourself to go two-for-one to stop them.
Tormod said goyf was the most cost efficient beater. That's not true. The three I posted are the most cost efficient beaters. Don't read any harder into it.
As for "Don't read more into it". Man, the best beater is not the one with the highest number in the power box. The 15 is not what makes Emmy so strong. It's the "Sac 6 permanents" that makes it strong
In the case of Dreadnought, you need at least a Stifle to make it work. Without that it's not going to do a thing. This is a game where you have to read the fine print and the fine print says that card ain't worth using.
Anyway, you have made up your mind so feel free to post again about how wrong I am. But hay, it's not like I actually play the format or anything. But I know your point of view will not change because you have no understanding of what you are commenting on. So, I shall not bother to try again.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
It goes double if they are playing Brainstorm.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Put another way, Modern is for people who don't understand the subtleties and intricacies of Legacy.
No, because attempted turn 1-2 wins are expected. There is a big difference. They're not expected in large numbers either.
G/ Maveric was the top deck before RTR.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Worst mike-drop ever.
People do play those cards