I noticed something. When I lose, it's rarely due to creatures in the red zone or some type of combo. It's usually to Jace. Partly this is because my deck of choice, Deadguy, is naturally weak to him. However, I'm not willing to submit so easily, and I'd like to put together a list of things to do to beat him.
I am just about crazy enough to get a Chains of Mephistopheles just for this, so that's the level of insanity we're working with. No need to confine ourselves to colors, but let's try to think of stuff every color can do rather than just let it go with, "REB is the best answer."
this is the most accurate answer so far imo. As several of us have discussed over at the Bwx Stoneblade thread, vindicate is just terrible presently. Its just too damn slow, I always felt like i was burning a turn.
Now my deck is more control/less aggro than yours, but to me the answer is kill everything else, let your creatures handle jace :). Constant pressure can turn Jace into the most expensive brainstorm ever.
I am a HUGE fan of an etutor board in pretty much anything playing white.
MD disruption is my go to against decks running jace. Thoughtseize of course being the best available. Problem is, every deck that runs jace also runs brainstorm. I just asked my buddy and he had a real simple answer...."Im my legacy vampires deck ( I lol'd ) i MD 4x cavern of souls, and run vampire hexmage. **** jace."
You're not losing to a card, you're losing to a deck.
What is JTMS on the battlefield by himself with no other permanents? Well, really good obviously, but the point is if you can beat down the deck itself, you've already beaten Jace.
Decks that play Jace are not "glass jaw" decks. You can't silver bullet them away with an answer like Pithing Needle or just Thoughtseizing it out of their hand, Esperblade will still come back with Entreat, Top, Brainstorm, Plow, SFM, Snapcaster etc. Bug control will still punish you with Liliana and Pernicious Deed.
I currently run the E-tutor board, and it is indeed helpful. Applying pressure is great too, but not always feasible. Jace decks are often superlative creature-handlers.
Revoker is MD-able, that's defense line 1. 2 is the MD O-Rings, not ultra-reliable for this purpose. Then comes the E-tutor board, featuring not only a Needle but a Cursed Scroll (to ping him with), a Nevermore, and a pro-blue Sword (to stop fatesealing).
None of these answers actually feel good though. They are each things that can come in vs other decks and are better than the dead cards in the given matchup. I want to break him: maybe I need a Sorin to steal him with.
Vindicate is decent but something better can be used.
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Spending your turn to kill a Jace (Vindicate/O-Ring) that already got to Brainstorm is really bad, and you've probably already lost at that point.
I would say either go with the narrow, albeit effective hoser like Needle or splash red for Pyroblast.
Like it was said above, Jace is just part of the problem. Stoneforge Mystic/Batterskull/Jitte and Lingering Souls are also very strong against your deck, there's not a universal answer to all of them really.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
If you want to think outside the box and if you a black dedicated, Underworld Dreams shuts off his 0, reduce +2 to +1 with draw step. Add discarding, your opponent has to activate the Brainstorm effect and you get 3 damage redirected onto Jace.
Serra Avenger is a beast against JTMS. Basically Vigilance creatures are a nightmare because you still have blockers, even if you swing FORCING them to -1 JTMS. Other than that just other fliers (scryb ranger) are really solid.
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I don't think WB has many good answers against Jace.
Removal such as Vindicate or O-Ring is simply terrible. Even if it doesn't get Forced, you have to spend 3 mana which is usually your entire turn to kill Jace, when they already played it and Brainstormed with it.
Pithing Needle is a little bit better. Much better than revoker IMO. That's the only real option you have against Jace.
Aside from that, Lingering Souls or Elspeth are good options.
If you are ok with splashing other colors here are some things to consider.
Creeping Tar Pit, Vendilion Clique, Jace Beleren, Geist of Saint Traft, Sulfuric Vortex. All very good option against Jace and Jace decks.
Spirit/Faerie tokens, anything with SoFaI on it (can't bounce prot. Blue!), Vindicate, Wasteland to keep them off Jace a few more turns, and you can rip it with Thoughtseize.
I'm not saying that I haven't lost to Jace, but I've beaten him more. I'm usually ok with the control deck spending 4 to brainstorm and have me tap 3 and discard a card. Bob and Misty win the CA war, and they cost less.
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I'm aware that the nature of Jace decks is such that no single silver bullet will do. Jace is a versatile, powerful card, and it seems that no answer is completely ideal. I'm not looking for a 100% Jace-proof solution, just a few ways to get more play against those decks.
I thought of this one, though I'd rather use Extirpate, but I'm not sure how good it would be. On the front end, the discard is very finicky against the Jace deck. Up to 12 cards in the deck can be used to hide Jace (Brainstorm, Top, Jace himself) to picking one off via discard might not be simple, particularly if this decided Game 2 and the opponent is wary in Game 3.
Not only this, but the Helm-RIP Miracles variant is real, is fairly popular here in Beijing, and totally obviates this strategy.
Surgical is a good card by itself though in most of those matchups, I might catch the LS after Intuition -> Souls in Esperblade for instance.
...
Chains of Mephistopheles does seem reasonably good to me, and I'd like to try out the card. It does look cool, and is playable priced at 2 mana. I thought of Spiteful Visions as well, which appears more hilarious than effective and incredibly narrow as well. RUG is hardly going to fear this sort of card, and that's 1/3 of the blue decks in my meta.
I'm aware that the nature of Jace decks is such that no single silver bullet will do. Jace is a versatile, powerful card, and it seems that no answer is completely ideal. I'm not looking for a 100% Jace-proof solution, just a few ways to get more play against those decks.
I thought of this one, though I'd rather use Extirpate, but I'm not sure how good it would be. On the front end, the discard is very finicky against the Jace deck. Up to 12 cards in the deck can be used to hide Jace (Brainstorm, Top, Jace himself) to picking one off via discard might not be simple, particularly if this decided Game 2 and the opponent is wary in Game 3.
Not only this, but the Helm-RIP Miracles variant is real, is fairly popular here in Beijing, and totally obviates this strategy.
Surgical is a good card by itself though in most of those matchups, I might catch the LS after Intuition -> Souls in Esperblade for instance.
...
Chains of Mephistopheles does seem reasonably good to me, and I'd like to try out the card. It does look cool, and is playable priced at 2 mana. I thought of Spiteful Visions as well, which appears more hilarious than effective and incredibly narrow as well. RUG is hardly going to fear this sort of card, and that's 1/3 of the blue decks in my meta.
For horribly narrow you could also try Underworld Dreams for 3 mana.
Leyline of Sanctity also Stops Jaceseal and Jace's ult. Honestly though, just play the card advantage game. Run Phyrexian Arena if you have to. With Bob its a draw 3 every turn at the cost of life... thats prime against control. Just beat him with Hawk once and you're good on the life loss.
I am just about crazy enough to get a Chains of Mephistopheles just for this, so that's the level of insanity we're working with. No need to confine ourselves to colors, but let's try to think of stuff every color can do rather than just let it go with, "REB is the best answer."
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
I think that is a style of card that fits Deadguy Ale, but I'm not familiar with the deck.
this is the most accurate answer so far imo. As several of us have discussed over at the Bwx Stoneblade thread, vindicate is just terrible presently. Its just too damn slow, I always felt like i was burning a turn.
Now my deck is more control/less aggro than yours, but to me the answer is kill everything else, let your creatures handle jace :). Constant pressure can turn Jace into the most expensive brainstorm ever.
I am a HUGE fan of an etutor board in pretty much anything playing white.
MD disruption is my go to against decks running jace. Thoughtseize of course being the best available. Problem is, every deck that runs jace also runs brainstorm. I just asked my buddy and he had a real simple answer...."Im my legacy vampires deck ( I lol'd ) i MD 4x cavern of souls, and run vampire hexmage. **** jace."
BUGShardless SultaiBUG
Modern
URSplinter TwinUR
BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
Standard
URWJeskai TokensURW
What is JTMS on the battlefield by himself with no other permanents? Well, really good obviously, but the point is if you can beat down the deck itself, you've already beaten Jace.
Decks that play Jace are not "glass jaw" decks. You can't silver bullet them away with an answer like Pithing Needle or just Thoughtseizing it out of their hand, Esperblade will still come back with Entreat, Top, Brainstorm, Plow, SFM, Snapcaster etc. Bug control will still punish you with Liliana and Pernicious Deed.
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...also combat obviously.
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Revoker is MD-able, that's defense line 1. 2 is the MD O-Rings, not ultra-reliable for this purpose. Then comes the E-tutor board, featuring not only a Needle but a Cursed Scroll (to ping him with), a Nevermore, and a pro-blue Sword (to stop fatesealing).
None of these answers actually feel good though. They are each things that can come in vs other decks and are better than the dead cards in the given matchup. I want to break him: maybe I need a Sorin to steal him with.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Vindicate is decent but something better can be used.
Decks I play
Legacy
Dredge 0
DredgeGBRU
AffinityXRUB
GoblinsRWB
10 land StompyG
BurnR
DreadstillURW
BelcherGR
Death and Taxes W
Enchantress GWR
BUILDING
Legacy Lands GBRUW
I'll never tell you the flavor text of Teferi's Imp!!
I would say either go with the narrow, albeit effective hoser like Needle or splash red for Pyroblast.
Like it was said above, Jace is just part of the problem. Stoneforge Mystic/Batterskull/Jitte and Lingering Souls are also very strong against your deck, there's not a universal answer to all of them really.
Bident Layers
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RG Devotion
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RUG Delver
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Removal such as Vindicate or O-Ring is simply terrible. Even if it doesn't get Forced, you have to spend 3 mana which is usually your entire turn to kill Jace, when they already played it and Brainstormed with it.
Pithing Needle is a little bit better. Much better than revoker IMO. That's the only real option you have against Jace.
Aside from that, Lingering Souls or Elspeth are good options.
If you are ok with splashing other colors here are some things to consider.
Creeping Tar Pit, Vendilion Clique, Jace Beleren, Geist of Saint Traft, Sulfuric Vortex. All very good option against Jace and Jace decks.
Gaddock Teeg is also extremely good.
I'm not saying that I haven't lost to Jace, but I've beaten him more. I'm usually ok with the control deck spending 4 to brainstorm and have me tap 3 and discard a card. Bob and Misty win the CA war, and they cost less.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
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- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
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My favorite means of beating Super Jace is mana denial.
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ANT
Imperial Painter
I'm aware that the nature of Jace decks is such that no single silver bullet will do. Jace is a versatile, powerful card, and it seems that no answer is completely ideal. I'm not looking for a 100% Jace-proof solution, just a few ways to get more play against those decks.
I thought of this one, though I'd rather use Extirpate, but I'm not sure how good it would be. On the front end, the discard is very finicky against the Jace deck. Up to 12 cards in the deck can be used to hide Jace (Brainstorm, Top, Jace himself) to picking one off via discard might not be simple, particularly if this decided Game 2 and the opponent is wary in Game 3.
Not only this, but the Helm-RIP Miracles variant is real, is fairly popular here in Beijing, and totally obviates this strategy.
Surgical is a good card by itself though in most of those matchups, I might catch the LS after Intuition -> Souls in Esperblade for instance.
...
Chains of Mephistopheles does seem reasonably good to me, and I'd like to try out the card. It does look cool, and is playable priced at 2 mana. I thought of Spiteful Visions as well, which appears more hilarious than effective and incredibly narrow as well. RUG is hardly going to fear this sort of card, and that's 1/3 of the blue decks in my meta.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
For horribly narrow you could also try Underworld Dreams for 3 mana.
Leyline of Sanctity also Stops Jaceseal and Jace's ult. Honestly though, just play the card advantage game. Run Phyrexian Arena if you have to. With Bob its a draw 3 every turn at the cost of life... thats prime against control. Just beat him with Hawk once and you're good on the life loss.
Legacy Burn
NO Combo Elves
Reanimator
Trades
Burn Primer
:symg:Free Gaea's Cradle:symg: