The other way is to generate enough mana to make your opponent draw their entire library using Blue Sun's Zenith. But that takes a LOT of math to pull off.
The other way is to generate enough mana to make your opponent draw their entire library using Blue Sun's Zenith. But that takes a LOT of math to pull off.
Your deck seems very interesting. I still can't figure out the infinite mana/storm/card draw combo though? Care to explain T__T
Thanks,
iBboy
Yeah, This deck is certainly not for beginners, as it is VERY hard to play correctly. basically you are trying to find your high tide and need 3 or more islands to go off effectively. Once you get the lands in play you cast the high tide and then use your cantips, searches and draw spells to find more islands and high tides, as well as cards that untap your lands, which allows you to increase your mana, which you use to cast more cantrips, searches and draws. Eventually you will use a cunning wish or merchant scroll to find a win con like brain freeze, which needs a storm count of roughly 18 to be lethal.
This. I've played a casual version of the deck with 4x Frantic Search and 4x Mind's Desire, and it is very difficult to disrupt. It is conceivable that the former could be unbanned at some point in the future, but after some testing it quickly became obvious that the latter is kept out of Legacy for a reason.
I might keep 2 versions of the deck now.
Impulse is pretty good in the deck, its 2 cmc is really good when going off. I think I'll use that over meditate for now.
@iBboy
If you want to see how the deck works, I can record one of my MWS practice session
The other way is to generate enough mana to make your opponent draw their entire library using Blue Sun's Zenith. But that takes a LOT of math to pull off.
Not exactly. Here is how the infinite mana/storm/card draw combo works:
Cast High Tide, and start comboing as normal (playing untappers, drawing cards, etc).
Do this until you have cast all 4 copies of High Tide in your deck (each land now taps for 5 mana).
1. Cast a Cloud of Faeries, with at least 1 mana floating. [Mana in Pool: 1]
2. Untap 2 lands, and tap them for 10 blue mana. [Mana in Pool: 11]
3. Cast a Cunning Wish, and retrieve Capsize from your sideboard. [Mana in Pool: 8]
4. For 6 mana, cast Capsize with its buyback cost targeting Cloud of Faeries. This returns both the Capsize and the Cloud of Faeries to your hand. [Mana in Pool: 2]
5. For 2 mana, recast Cloud of Faeries. [Mana in Pool: 0]
6. Untap 2 of your lands with the Cloud of Faeries, then retap them for 10 blue mana. [Mana in Pool: 10]
You now have Capsize in your hand, and Cloud of Faeries in play, just like you did after step 3. However, this cycle has netted you a profit of 2 blue mana. (You started with 8, now you have 10).
7. Repeat the cycle as many times as you want. You now have cast infinite spells, and have access to infinite blue mana.
It is rarely neccessary to go for the infinite combo, but sometimes it will be. That is why the Cunning Wishes are so important to the deck's function. They get you out of a lot of tight jams.
As a sidenote, you can also use the Capsize to bounce infinite permenants once the infinite mana combo has been assembled. Sometimes this alone can force a concession from your opponent.
Yeah, This deck is certainly not for beginners, as it is VERY hard to play correctly. basically you are trying to find your high tide and need 3 or more islands to go off effectively. Once you get the lands in play you cast the high tide and then use your cantips, searches and draw spells to find more islands and high tides, as well as cards that untap your lands, which allows you to increase your mana, which you use to cast more cantrips, searches and draws. Eventually you will use a cunning wish or merchant scroll to find a win con like brain freeze, which needs a storm count of roughly 18 to be lethal.
So, you wouldn't recommend it for a beginner? haha it does seems complex. It's clearer now thanks!
@Mabberman: I think I understood how it functions now, thanks anyways!
Not exactly. Here is how the infinite mana/storm/card draw combo works:
Cast High Tide, and start comboing as normal (playing untappers, drawing cards, etc).
Do this until you have cast all 4 copies of High Tide in your deck (each land now taps for 5 mana).
1. Cast a Cloud of Faeries, with at least 1 mana floating. [Mana in Pool: 1]
2. Untap 2 lands, and tap them for 10 blue mana. [Mana in Pool: 11]
3. Cast a Cunning Wish, and retrieve Capsize from your sideboard. [Mana in Pool: 8]
4. For 6 mana, cast Capsize with its buyback cost targeting Cloud of Faeries. This returns both the Capsize and the Cloud of Faeries to your hand. [Mana in Pool: 2]
5. For 2 mana, recast Cloud of Faeries. [Mana in Pool: 0]
6. Untap 2 of your lands with the Cloud of Faeries, then retap them for 10 blue mana. [Mana in Pool: 10]
You now have Capsize in your hand, and Cloud of Faeries in play, just like you did after step 3. However, this cycle has netted you a profit of 2 blue mana. (You started with 8, now you have 10).
7. Repeat the cycle as many times as you want. You now have cast infinite spells, and have access to infinite blue mana.
It is rarely neccessary to go for the infinite combo, but sometimes it will be. That is why the Cunning Wishes are so important to the deck's function. They get you out of a lot of tight jams.
As a sidenote, you can also use the Capsize to bounce infinite permenants once the infinite mana combo has been assembled. Sometimes this alone can force a concession from your opponent.
I meant that the "real" version of the deck also has a way of generate a LOT of mana for a lethal BSZ. I wasn't sure if it was feasible with the "budget" build of the deck (shows how much I know about combo).
So, you wouldn't recommend it for a beginner? haha it does seems complex. It's clearer now thanks!
@Mabberman: I think I understood how it functions now, thanks anyways!
-iBboy
It really depends on your willingness to practice. If you've never played with a storm deck before, you will probably have a tough time winning until you master some of the intricacies. But these decks are VERY rewarding once you start getting good :). Especially a build like Spring Tide, that has lots of subtle interactions to master.
My advice is to load it up on Magic Worksation and spend a few hours practicing against an imaginary opponent. Your skill will improve rapidly not only as a Spring Tide player, but as a Magic player in general.
I meant that the "real" version of the deck also has a way of generate a LOT of mana for a lethal BSZ. I wasn't sure if it was feasible with the "budget" build of the deck (shows how much I know about combo).
Haha yeah, between Candelabra of Tawnos and Time Spiral, Spiral Tide rarely has trouble getting the mana to BSZ for the win. It is certainly more tricky when playing Spring Tide, although their are definitely occasions when I have 60+ mana floating from my random untap effects and I wish for BSZ and kill the old fashioned way.
Hi, I'm new to legacy and I am building Merfolk as my first legacy deck. I'm going to have the normal build in the next few days, minus a few big price tag items. They are Mutavault, Wasteland (maybe not, hope for good trading tomorrow), and the big shocker, Force of Will. My question comes because of the last card.... Which is the best replacement for FoW.... Counterspell or Disrupting Shoal? Thanks for any and all help.
Hi, I'm new to legacy and I am building Merfolk as my first legacy deck. I'm going to have the normal build in the next few days, minus a few big price tag items. They are Mutavault, Wasteland (maybe not, hope for good trading tomorrow), and the big shocker, Force of Will. My question comes because of the last card.... Which is the best replacement for FoW.... Counterspell or Disrupting Shoal? Thanks for any and all help.
I would stick with disrupting shoal I think. Foil as a 3 for 1 is just terrible. I might even be tempted to just go without a Force analogue and take a different counterspell instead. All you really gain from running one of the other "free" counterspells is being able to play a turn 0 counterspell or a tapped out counterspell in combo matches. Maybe stick with spell pierce or spell snare instead and then keep Foil in the board if you think you'll come across Belcher or ANT.
I'd give ghost quarter a run instead of wasteland, I think it's probably almost good enough to work correctly in most developed metas (if the meta is new, you probably will have people playing with basics more often).
Mutavault doesn't really have a good substitute. Mishra's Factory I guess does a similar thing, but I don't know if it's good enough. I'd only consider it if you're running Standstill.
Neither Disrupting Shoal or Foil can fill FoWs shoes. You are probably better off accepting that you won't be able to stop fast combo game 1, and instead go for a counterspell that doesn't end up 2-for-1ing you.
My recomendation is Spell Pierce. Depending on your build, you might even want to entertain a card like Disrupt, which is card advantage as well as disruption. While these won't be able to stop a turn 1 belcher, they might actually increase your game agains the mirror (since trading 1 Pierce for 1 FoW is basically a Mind Rot).
Out of the sideboard you could bring in Mindbreak Trap to strengthen your combo MU.
Neither Disrupting Shoal or Foil can fill FoWs shoes. You are probably better off accepting that you won't be able to stop fast combo game 1, and instead go for a counterspell that doesn't end up 2-for-1ing you.
My recomendation is Spell Pierce. Depending on your build, you might even want to entertain a card like Disrupt, which is card advantage as well as disruption. While these won't be able to stop a turn 1 belcher, they might actually increase your game agains the mirror (since trading 1 Pierce for 1 FoW is basically a Mind Rot).
Out of the sideboard you could bring in Mindbreak Trap to strengthen your combo MU.
This. Unless you are running combo (in which case pact of negation can replace force) nothing can replace force. just stick with something like spell pierce, disrupt or even counterspell.
mutavault can be replaced with mishras factory. it wont get the beef from the lords, but it also wont crack our standstills.
Well, I currently am thinking counterspell is the route that I'm going. I'll hopefully pick up some Mutavaults once I find someone to trade them. Currently, my counter package is 4 Counterspell, 4 Daze, and 4 Spell Pierce. Now that the deck is playable, any suggestions on the sideboard? Cards I was considering are: Tormod's Crypt Pithing Needle Flashfreeze Echoing Truth
Any other suggestions? From what I have heard, the meta I will be playing at is pretty new and diverse. Thanks again.
Submerge is definitely a good option, as well as Llawan, Cephalid Empress as a card against mirror matches. Really it all depends on your meta. If you have a lot of combo in your meta, throw in some more counter magic and depending on the type of combo, pithing needle. Are there a lot of prison decks like Enchantress, Stax, and Countertop? bring in some energy flux to stop em cold. Need something against burn or the burn that zoo packs? bring in Hyrdoblast.
Oh yeah, and Echoing Truth is really nice against a lot of stuff, Empty the Warrens, and dredge decks really take a beating from it.
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Hey, so, long story short, I want to get serious about legacy, for the most part.
At the moment all I have is POX and a budgety U/G Madness deck, and so I'm looking at new decks to give a go with
I was looking at the Mighty Quinn and I have a lot of cards in that deck already so I was somewhat partial to that.
I'm trying to keep things as cheap as possible, which is an oxymoron for legacy I know, but I'm not going to play burn, since everyone in my meta already does that.
I've been enjoying POX quite a bit but it has a bad habit of either winning or killing itself in the process of winning, so I was looking at something a little more survivable, and Mighty Quinn seems nifty. Its mono color so it means no duals.
This depends heavily on what you want to do. The Mighty Quinn is really a budget version of the primary control decks in the format (Enchantress or ThopterTop) and really hasn't put up any results recently. I'd suggest building something else honestly since the best win conditions for Quinn are expensive (like Painter's Stone).
Merfolk is pretty cheap to build and a good deck to learn on.
well, here are what I consider to be the cheapest playable legacy decks and the highest prices in them:
Merfolk (wasteland $50?, Force $60?)
goblins (piledriver $15, wasteland $50, port $30)
Death and Taxes (wasteland $50, port $30, karakas $40*************)
**** I was able to find more than 4 karakas at $20 each, even while the price tag was still at a hefty $50. This card is hyperinflated and you would be able to get it for less if you looked. You cold even splash green if you're playing this deck and take it and probably port out for tarmogoyf, but then you'd need savannah ($35)
Imwillmull, where are you getting your prices? If I found Savannah's for $35, I'd buy them on the spot... And probably more than four of them if I could. <<;
Merfolk is considered 'cheap to build' by a lot of people, but Force, Wasteland, Aether Vial, Mutavault, Jace TMS, and crew adds up. HOWEVER, once you build a deck with Force in it, the cost of building other decks in the future goes down significantly.
The Mighty Quinn seemed amazing to me the first time I saw it, before I started playing Legacy. After playing against decks like Landstill, though, a hand full of Chants and a Moat doesn't seem like as much of a challenge.
Death and Taxes is a super fun deck, IMO. It's surprisingly good against a lot the Bant colored aggro decks and can be tailored to a wide range of metas (except Combo...).
There was a fun deck I played with on MWS a while back. It abused Suppression Field and Glittering Lynx type effects, paired with Armageddon. Suppression Field is really good against pretty much everything, the only downside is you have to play to use it, which doesn't leave you with a lot of choices.
When it comes down to it, you need to pick a deck that you like. If you have a stigma against goblins, like me, I wouldn't build a goblin deck. It's no use investing in a deck that you don't like playing.
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well, here are what I consider to be the cheapest playable legacy decks and the highest prices in them:
Merfolk (wasteland $50?, Force $60?)
goblins (piledriver $15, wasteland $50, port $30)
Death and Taxes (wasteland $50, port $30, karakas $40*************)
**** I was able to find more than 4 karakas at $20 each, even while the price tag was still at a hefty $50. This card is hyperinflated and you would be able to get it for less if you looked. You cold even splash green if you're playing this deck and take it and probably port out for tarmogoyf, but then you'd need savannah ($35)
I don't know where you are getting your prices but wasteland is around 70 and force is around 90. Merfolk is not the budget deck I once was.
The deck uses High Tide to get a lot of mana, a good amount of card drawing in Meditate and Ideas Unbound, and "free" spells using Turnabout, Snap, Cloud Of Faeries and Time Spiral (which also is a draw 7). Once they have drawn enough cards to ramp up the storm count to 18+, they cast Brain Freeze and they win.
The other way is to generate enough mana to make your opponent draw their entire library using Blue Sun's Zenith. But that takes a LOT of math to pull off.
Hmm, well that's clear things off! Thanks
By the way, I'm from Montreal too haha!
-iBboy
Yeah, This deck is certainly not for beginners, as it is VERY hard to play correctly. basically you are trying to find your high tide and need 3 or more islands to go off effectively. Once you get the lands in play you cast the high tide and then use your cantips, searches and draw spells to find more islands and high tides, as well as cards that untap your lands, which allows you to increase your mana, which you use to cast more cantrips, searches and draws. Eventually you will use a cunning wish or merchant scroll to find a win con like brain freeze, which needs a storm count of roughly 18 to be lethal.
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I might keep 2 versions of the deck now.
Impulse is pretty good in the deck, its 2 cmc is really good when going off. I think I'll use that over meditate for now.
@iBboy
If you want to see how the deck works, I can record one of my MWS practice session
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Not exactly. Here is how the infinite mana/storm/card draw combo works:
Cast High Tide, and start comboing as normal (playing untappers, drawing cards, etc).
Do this until you have cast all 4 copies of High Tide in your deck (each land now taps for 5 mana).
1. Cast a Cloud of Faeries, with at least 1 mana floating. [Mana in Pool: 1]
2. Untap 2 lands, and tap them for 10 blue mana. [Mana in Pool: 11]
3. Cast a Cunning Wish, and retrieve Capsize from your sideboard. [Mana in Pool: 8]
4. For 6 mana, cast Capsize with its buyback cost targeting Cloud of Faeries. This returns both the Capsize and the Cloud of Faeries to your hand. [Mana in Pool: 2]
5. For 2 mana, recast Cloud of Faeries. [Mana in Pool: 0]
6. Untap 2 of your lands with the Cloud of Faeries, then retap them for 10 blue mana. [Mana in Pool: 10]
You now have Capsize in your hand, and Cloud of Faeries in play, just like you did after step 3. However, this cycle has netted you a profit of 2 blue mana. (You started with 8, now you have 10).
7. Repeat the cycle as many times as you want. You now have cast infinite spells, and have access to infinite blue mana.
8. Cunning Wish for Blue Sun's Zenith, and make them draw infinite cards.
GG.
It is rarely neccessary to go for the infinite combo, but sometimes it will be. That is why the Cunning Wishes are so important to the deck's function. They get you out of a lot of tight jams.
As a sidenote, you can also use the Capsize to bounce infinite permenants once the infinite mana combo has been assembled. Sometimes this alone can force a concession from your opponent.
So, you wouldn't recommend it for a beginner? haha it does seems complex. It's clearer now thanks!
@Mabberman: I think I understood how it functions now, thanks anyways!
-iBboy
I meant that the "real" version of the deck also has a way of generate a LOT of mana for a lethal BSZ. I wasn't sure if it was feasible with the "budget" build of the deck (shows how much I know about combo).
It really depends on your willingness to practice. If you've never played with a storm deck before, you will probably have a tough time winning until you master some of the intricacies. But these decks are VERY rewarding once you start getting good :). Especially a build like Spring Tide, that has lots of subtle interactions to master.
My advice is to load it up on Magic Worksation and spend a few hours practicing against an imaginary opponent. Your skill will improve rapidly not only as a Spring Tide player, but as a Magic player in general.
Haha yeah, between Candelabra of Tawnos and Time Spiral, Spiral Tide rarely has trouble getting the mana to BSZ for the win. It is certainly more tricky when playing Spring Tide, although their are definitely occasions when I have 60+ mana floating from my random untap effects and I wish for BSZ and kill the old fashioned way.
WR Heroic
Modern
FISH
Legacy
FISH
EDH
Hanna, Ship Navigator - Enchantments
Sygg, River Guide - Fish Tribal
Mayael, the Anima - Power5orGreater
Zedruu, the Greathearted - Gifts
Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker - 1 Power Recursion
Roon of the Hidden Realm - ETB Triggers
Edric, Spymaster of Trent - TurboFog
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Shapeshifters *IN PROGRESS*
Krenko, Mob Boss - Goblins *IN PROGRESS*
I've seen Disrupting Shoal used, as well as Foil.
I'd give ghost quarter a run instead of wasteland, I think it's probably almost good enough to work correctly in most developed metas (if the meta is new, you probably will have people playing with basics more often).
Mutavault doesn't really have a good substitute. Mishra's Factory I guess does a similar thing, but I don't know if it's good enough. I'd only consider it if you're running Standstill.
Neither Disrupting Shoal or Foil can fill FoWs shoes. You are probably better off accepting that you won't be able to stop fast combo game 1, and instead go for a counterspell that doesn't end up 2-for-1ing you.
My recomendation is Spell Pierce. Depending on your build, you might even want to entertain a card like Disrupt, which is card advantage as well as disruption. While these won't be able to stop a turn 1 belcher, they might actually increase your game agains the mirror (since trading 1 Pierce for 1 FoW is basically a Mind Rot).
Out of the sideboard you could bring in Mindbreak Trap to strengthen your combo MU.
This. Unless you are running combo (in which case pact of negation can replace force) nothing can replace force. just stick with something like spell pierce, disrupt or even counterspell.
mutavault can be replaced with mishras factory. it wont get the beef from the lords, but it also wont crack our standstills.
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-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle
Flashfreeze
Echoing Truth
Any other suggestions? From what I have heard, the meta I will be playing at is pretty new and diverse. Thanks again.
WR Heroic
Modern
FISH
Legacy
FISH
EDH
Hanna, Ship Navigator - Enchantments
Sygg, River Guide - Fish Tribal
Mayael, the Anima - Power5orGreater
Zedruu, the Greathearted - Gifts
Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker - 1 Power Recursion
Roon of the Hidden Realm - ETB Triggers
Edric, Spymaster of Trent - TurboFog
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Shapeshifters *IN PROGRESS*
Krenko, Mob Boss - Goblins *IN PROGRESS*
Even in mono-blue you have a lot of choice and it'll depend on which decks you want to fix your matchups for.
Have a read of the Merfolk thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=311920
Oh yeah, and Echoing Truth is really nice against a lot of stuff, Empty the Warrens, and dredge decks really take a beating from it.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
At the moment all I have is POX and a budgety U/G Madness deck, and so I'm looking at new decks to give a go with
I was looking at the Mighty Quinn and I have a lot of cards in that deck already so I was somewhat partial to that.
I'm trying to keep things as cheap as possible, which is an oxymoron for legacy I know, but I'm not going to play burn, since everyone in my meta already does that.
I've been enjoying POX quite a bit but it has a bad habit of either winning or killing itself in the process of winning, so I was looking at something a little more survivable, and Mighty Quinn seems nifty. Its mono color so it means no duals.
Any suggestions on entering into Legacy?
Merfolk is pretty cheap to build and a good deck to learn on.
Merfolk (wasteland $50?, Force $60?)
goblins (piledriver $15, wasteland $50, port $30)
Death and Taxes (wasteland $50, port $30, karakas $40*************)
**** I was able to find more than 4 karakas at $20 each, even while the price tag was still at a hefty $50. This card is hyperinflated and you would be able to get it for less if you looked. You cold even splash green if you're playing this deck and take it and probably port out for tarmogoyf, but then you'd need savannah ($35)
Merfolk is considered 'cheap to build' by a lot of people, but Force, Wasteland, Aether Vial, Mutavault, Jace TMS, and crew adds up. HOWEVER, once you build a deck with Force in it, the cost of building other decks in the future goes down significantly.
The Mighty Quinn seemed amazing to me the first time I saw it, before I started playing Legacy. After playing against decks like Landstill, though, a hand full of Chants and a Moat doesn't seem like as much of a challenge.
Death and Taxes is a super fun deck, IMO. It's surprisingly good against a lot the Bant colored aggro decks and can be tailored to a wide range of metas (except Combo...).
There was a fun deck I played with on MWS a while back. It abused Suppression Field and Glittering Lynx type effects, paired with Armageddon. Suppression Field is really good against pretty much everything, the only downside is you have to play to use it, which doesn't leave you with a lot of choices.
When it comes down to it, you need to pick a deck that you like. If you have a stigma against goblins, like me, I wouldn't build a goblin deck. It's no use investing in a deck that you don't like playing.
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:symw::symw: Death & Taxes
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I'm gonna disagree here. It's no easier to play than Goblins. Merfolk and Burn are distinctly the easiest decks to pilot.
I don't know where you are getting your prices but wasteland is around 70 and force is around 90. Merfolk is not the budget deck I once was.
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