Great build. I guess I'll collect all commons from all builds and play with them
Some questions about this build:
- Why Darksteel Citadel? Maybe Strip Mine replacing it?
- Is Mycosynth Wellspring worth the slot?
- How do you justify Trinket Mage with only 1 artifact land and so few 1-cmc artifact choices?
- Why not Expedition Map? This could justify Trinket Mage (and Strip Mine!) IMO.
- If you cut the combo, consider keeping Rolling Thunder (or the slightly easier to cast and harder to tweak Fireball) as an alt wincon.
- About draw spells, what do you think about Treasure Cruise?
Darksteel Citadel is the only protection available at common against mass land removal (except counters). It helps a tiny bit to cover a big weakness of the deck. In my book, Strip Mine isn't common so I'm not touching it.
Mycosynth Wellspring isn't necessary, but seems like the best deal to be had in its class of cards. It fixes one color and grabs your second swamp/island when CoA explodes the first time, all for only 2 colorless mana. If we're not exploding CoA so often however, it could be reconsidered.
Trinket Mage is sort of part of a slippery slope: If Sidisi is as good as we think, we should run Vedalken Aethermage, but if we do, we should run more wizards like Trinket Mage, and then you need to add a few artifact lands etc. which inevitably weakens the deck to all the artifact removal in the format. I'm not sure about the mage and may drop it, vedalken and qasali for stronger options if I can rely on Dizzy Spell and its tutor chains to eventually get Sidisi instead. Now that I think about it, that is probably what I will do. I prefer Reap and Sow over Expedition Map anyway
Yeah, we should probably run an X-spell anyway and Crimson Wisps is a useful cantrip on its own, so the combo is probably staying.
Treasure Cruise is already in there and a tier 1 draw spell in the deck (right up there with Brainstorm, Compulsive Research and friends). Delving can work to your benefit by putting CoA back in the command zone for replay, making it act as pseudo-recursion too.
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Have you considered familiar combo instead of krosan + freed? It might use more slots and more to combo, but the cards are better. I.e. play 2 (blue karos or familars) and 2 of (instant return creatures) and ghostly flicker and franatic search with temporal fissure in deck/graveyard/hand (I guess cloud of fearies + some storm kill card also works instead of a karo, instant returner and frantic search, but I feel the franatic search variant is stronger - cloud of faeries is very bad outside the combo, fanatic search is just bad and you have to use a weaker storm card than temporal fissure since it is hard to fetch. Storm count 4 or 5 hurts with temporal fissure but not so much with any of the others). Actually, the variant with cloud of faeries use less slots (cof, temporal fissure, ghostly flicker) than your current combo - seeing that you are playing a karoo and archeomancer anyway - but you likely want expedition map though (to find a karoo).
What I would do is to play all 4 blue karoos + expedition map, all the return instant or sorcery creatures, ghostly flicker, franatic search and temporal fissure. Even if you dont combo none of those are dead cards and just slightly weaker than your current setup.
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
@Zombie: It's not so much about the creature count I think. As you know, both it and Death Denied form an engine with recursion bears that permits perpetual recursion of 1 or more other creatures, namely Child of Alara. The problem with a permanent based engine however is that you have to rebuild the whole thing once CoA blows up. That's a lot of mana. Grim Harvest at 5 mana is cheap by comparison and requires no recursion bears to loop. It's particularly potent with cheap creatures like Spore Frog and Eternal Witness. I just substituted Eternal Witness with Archaeomancer when converting back to pauper, now that we also have a clutch repeatable sac outlet. In my experience though, perpetual loops of CoA is mainly for some absurd long games and should not be a focus for the deck. I'd much rather cheat on mana with the very affordable recursion auras or Undying Evil. One early blast around turn 5-6 ish (ideally with immediate recursion back to battlefield) and one some turns later (preferably courtesy of Mind Extraction) is usually the game, and if you start going beyond 15 turns, you can be sure to rely on Grim Harvest and now also Sidisi's Faithful for your continous sweeping needs (the flicker/bear engine was only really needed to ensure recursion of sac outlets, since Grim Harvest already provided the other half). If, however, you favor less sweeping and enjoy the Ghostly Flicker engine, then you should run Reaping the Graves too - probably over Death Denied.
@Reaper: I think the Ghostly Flicker engine itself is not optimal in this deck anymore (see reply to Zombie above). Nor is running 4 karoos, if you're seeing any LD at all. But I suppose it's an option. To be fair though, Krosan Restorer is quite the mana accelerant on her own if you have threshold (until she explodes) and Freed can help lock down a voltron general that is bothering you if you're not ready to blow it up just yet (or perhaps, if it is indestructible).
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I felt in love with the idea of PDH and i'm really interested in building some
I have a question for you urdjur. What is the main purpose of the "resurect" enchantment you play ?
Welcome to the format! Unlike most other generals, CoA must actually die and go to the grave to blow up the world. Going to the command zone is no good, then you don't explode the world. Hence, all builds of CoA involve some recursion mechanism - usually eating anywhere from 5 to 10 cards of the build. However, most of these only return CoA to hand, making it costly to recast it. Cards like False Demise return CoA to play immediately so you can sweep end of turn and have a fresh CoA to swing on an empty field come your turn. Only Undying Evil is cheaper, but the auras have the added benefit of also stealing opposing creatures, making them less redundant than most other creature recursion. Since we're playing pauper, chances are we'll steal something much more powerful than we could run ourselves. Hope all this makes sense!
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With the addition of Sidsi's Faithful, the peasant version of the deck can loop CoA at sorcery speed for just 6 mana (thanks to Fool's Demise). I played a one on one match with my buddy that drew a concession after assembling those three pieces. It's not instant speed like Worthy Cause, but boy is 6 mana fast.
False Defeat and Breath of Life are one mana more than the "pre-paid" reanimation auras, but more importantly they only work on your creatures - you can't use them to steal opposing dudes. The up-side of the auras is that you can stock up because if you have an aura and another reanimation effect, you can always use the aura for creature theft. Defeat/Breath are more narrow, and not nearly as aggressively costed as Undying Evil which does the same thing only better. I could see running one of them as a Dimir House Guard target but that's about it.
Why do you need AoE removal? Isn't Child of Alara itself enough? Do you mind blowing up enchantments and artifacts when you go boom, or why do you care about these much less worthwhile sweepers? We don't even have to worry about tucking anymore. Anyway, if you must run more sweepers, you probably want Swirling Sandstorm.
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I've been playing around with my pauper version some more and tweaked a few things. Going peasant has spoiled me and made me build less than optimal decks With pauper you cannot afford such luxury!
One thing I've tossed out is the utility land package. Running a rather good card like Bojuka Bog which is "almost the same as another swamp" (except we all know it isn't) makes you want to run stuff like Reap and Sow and Dimir Aqueduct and then you're skating down the slippery slope with Halimar Depths and lots of other stuff that are really just worse than basics. So I cut it. Ha! Mana fixing in pauper is tight as it is and I feel I cannot afford devoting tapped land slots to mono colored utility.
Since the deck now prefers casting t5 CoA with REB/Pyro to t4 CoA, we can afford to spend a turn to actually tutor for ramp (or REB/Pyro), which makes it much more consistent. Even if you don't have REB/Pyro, you can always bluff it! This also makes Panoramas better since there is more mana space in which to activate them, use cantrips that like shuffling etc. (Mycosynth Wellspring is back for the same reason - it was a mistake to cut it). I've included all five and still much prefer them to the three available laundry lands (Opal Palace etc). Laundry lands not only means at best t5 CoA tapping out, it also means 6 sources in play which is sometimes a bit of a stretch by turn 5. Anyway, here is my updated list:
I've also slightly tweaked the ETBT duals towards green (rather than only U/B). The lands now feature 18 blue/black/green sources and 14 white/red sources. Colorless fixing/ramp adds 4 slots to that and green ramp/fixing adds another 6 slots to fix the last piece of the color puzzle. Silver bullets: Capsize (everything), Castigate (graveyard combos/engines), Nihil Spellbomb (best GY hate IMO), Reality Acid (lands, indestructibles), Reverent Silence (Contamination locks, Humility etc), Spore Frog (against fast aggro, forms a quick lock with Grim Harvest) Win cons: CoA beats + continous sweeping as needed, fatty/general theft (recursion auras), direct damage w/without Freed combo
The rest should be pretty standard.
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I guess these changes just highlight the differences in our approaches. Personally, I think Expedition Map with Dimir Aqueduct in the deck is just plain stronger than Mycosynth Wellspring by itself, since the Map can do other things if you do not need lands. Bojuka Bog was also the only reliable way to get repeatable GY exile effects -- now your only option involves at least a three-card combo with Archaeomancer. I can see how these options are not as desirable if you cannot afford to slow down, though.
On another note, I am impressed that you continually find room for innovation in this deck. When new stuff comes out, I have a hard time cutting anything!
I've honestly never had the need for continous grave wipes - even repeatable ad lib board wipes have fringe utility at best IMO. My experience is that over half the games I lose feature inability to resolve/kill CoA in the first 6 turns. If you can blow up CoA 2-3 times as needed and have a reasonable amount of answers for (the relatively few) problems that are unaffected by non-land wipes, very few wins are out of reach IMO - especially with alt wincons.
Comparing Expedition Map with Mycosynth Wellspring is a lot like comparing Perilous Research with Perplex. If you're paying 3 to get 1 card rather than paying 2 to get 2, it had better be worth it. So any tutor is only better compared to draw, if the average power of the tutor targets beat the average power of your top decks by enough to motivate the mana cost difference. In the case of Perplex, then yeah - I'll gladly pay 3 mana for any 3 CMC card in the deck. With Expedition Map though, the power just isn't there in pauper. IMO, your non-basics are not so much better than basics that paying 3 to get 1 non-basic is worth it over 2 for 2 basics. Mycosynth Wellspring is very similar to a "Anyshard" Panorama that quickly gives an extra land in this deck. That's just bonkers. I mean, people play cards like Armillary Sphere and Horizon Spellbomb even in full power EDH decks and those are pretty much always worse.
If you really like the bounce/flicker potential of Bojuka Bog, there's no reason why you couldn't run it over Nihil Spellbomb though. Since I find wiping graveyards is largely irrelevant more than 50% of the time when I have such cards in hand, I prefer an option that "cycles" over a 0 CMC land that would then require another tutor go chain into when you really need it, and most likely a few other non-basic targets for that tutor that I'd rather not run to begin with.
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Thanks very much for starting and maintaining this thread, It's a very big help to me: since I've been constructing a Cube, I've been playing MTG on a very limited budget and because I've always enjoyed playing CoA as my commander I've been looking for a way to use her again but not having to invest a lot. This looks like it is exactly what I needed to kickstart my brand-new CoA deck! My build will be kind of hybrid: my playgroup doesn't exactly play PEDH and when we do, the commander is an unc. So i'll be using the spare nonbasic lands I have, plus a Life from the Loam I've got lying around and more stuff like that. I've decided that it'll be a nice challenge to invest as little as possible while still building something that will work, so my budget will be ten euro's.
So much for the introduction :). I'd like to share my concept build with you guys, and tell you what my build will look like. I'd also like you to shoot as many holes in it as you can... Here goes:
A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
Hi and sorry for the late reply! Hope you're still interested in this deck. I think most of the information you're looking for can be found in the main page primer. Look at the budget list there and compare these options to your own.
If I interpret your list and ambition correctly, you already have stuff like Stage/Depths combo, and you're not willing to trade overpriced stuff like that to get more room in your budget to spend on cards that will help you win more?
OK, let's first look at your mana base. You have Bosk, Garden, Fountain and Tomb as duals that count as forests etc. This means you should be using the mirage fetches that get forests (2) and maybe Flood Plain, as this will give you maximum mana fix. The other two are just worse than Terramorphic Expanse/Evolving Wilds or the excellent tri-lands that are also dirt cheap. Farseek seems like a perfect ramp card for you, as well. I think you will find Evolution Charm and Gaea's Bounty disappointing - you should be running Kodama's Reach and Cultivate instead.
As for sac outlets/recursion, you're missing sac outlets in lands completely which is a big mistake at your budget level (see the primer) and I can also recommend Greater Gargadon. Blue Elemental Blast can be safely skipped. At your budget level, I would definetely skip the Ghostly Flicker engine and get Body Double and Eternal Witness. So cut all those instant recursion wizards and Disturbed Burial, Unburial Rites, Gravedigger, Reaping the Graves and Death Denied as they are simply not good in a deck with Fool's Demise and Gift of Immortality. You can cut Tilling Treefolk too, really. Grim Harvest can stay as a back up and for small creatures like spore frog and EWitness.
With Jarad's Orders and Body Double, you should also get Myojin of Night's Reach (very cheap) for a turn 4 "I WIN" button. See the primer. Your other utility seems adequate, but it's meta dependent.
As for your draw, cut visions and Soul's Majesty. With all the space you've now created cutting subpar recursion, add Ponder, Preordain, Foresee, Read the Bones etc. - see the primer. You might also consider more land tutors to get your combo and utility lands (see the primer there too). Good luck!
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Tnx for your reply. Absolutely no problem it's late - I'm glad you took the time to look through my list. I am definitely still interested in this build. Althouh I realise that my list isn't exactly what this primer is looking for since it's not very low-budget, I figured that it does helps to explore possibilities. Anyway, your comments are very helpful.
Before I built my deck, I read the entire primer. The list I posted above is a result of both cards I already had, plus the small investment I wanted to make. I've tested it a couple of times now and found that Gaea's Bounty was disappointing indeed. Evolution Charm has been helpful though. I already took out Ghostly Flicker and have been able to get my hands on a Body Double that I'll definitly run. Myojin of Night's Reach will be my next target.
I'll be cutting Visions when I get my hands on a Preordain or Ponder. You're absolutely right about sac outlets in the land section, but since I don't realy like lands that only make colorless mana, I've only put Phyrexian Tower on my shortlist for now.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
I've edited my list a bit last night and am about to test Rescue from the Underworld at a CMC of 5 it's pretty expensive, but it requires only B, plus it is (a) a sac outlet and (b) creature recursion. Thing is, of course, there needs to be a creature in your graveyard and moreover the card itself is exiled. Thoughts on this?
Also I've got a question about Capsize. You call it an all-star, but what makes it better in this list than in any other? Because being able to re-use your ETB critters foor five doesn't sound too appealing to me. Am I missing something here?
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
Rescue seems OK. Brainspoil is a more important tutor with access to rares and uncommons, so 5 CMC is pretty decent for an "all in one" sac outlet and recursion. Seems about on par with the rest of the alternatives, especially if you can get good value out of the second creature (too bad if all you have is a Dimir Infiltrator or something though).
Capsize is actually 6 mana to cast and buyback. I'm not sure there aren't other decks where it is just as good, but here are a few things it has going for itself in this build:
- CoA blows up the world but has problems with indestructibles and lands, so you need answers to those. This is a pretty multipurpose answer.
- As a blue instant at 3 CMC, it is easy to tutor for in the deck.
- The deck makes use of various recursion engines. While Capsize isn't the most mana-efficient, it's still good if you have nothing else but lots of mana, and you're not running it for ETB abuse primarily anyway. It's just icing on the cake.
- You ramp a lot, probably more than most other decks with blue. Once you get to 12 lands, you can bounce 2 lands/turn with this card alone, which will doom an opponent without an answer.
- Most lists run an infinite mana combo. Capsize with infinite mana pretty much kills the table as you bounce everything. Combined with easy tutoring makes it also into a combo win con.
Thus, an "all-star" as it fills many roles in the deck. What is a five color control deck without a bounce spell? This is the best in the pauper card pool.
On another note, I think the most interesting development in this thread lately was Reaper's idea in post #80 about using Ghostly Flicker and Ravnica Karoos for the infinite combo instead of Restorer/Freed. I've recently come back to pauper (after the printing of Sidisi's Faithful) after playing this deck as a peasant variant. In peasant, I never bothered with the Ghostly Flicker engine, but I've noticed I miss it somewhat in pauper. This led me to test a few variants under casual circumstances at my own kitchen table:
- My previous list without Ghostly Flicker, only one Archaeomancer, and Restorer/Freed/Wisps combo.
- The "traditional" pauper list with Ghostly Flicker engine and Restorer/Freed/Wisps combo.
- A novel list with Ghostly Flicker engine and Cloud of Faeries combo.
It might be the sheen of novelty, but so far I'm liking the third option best. At first glance, the combo seems clumsy compared to the two card Restorer/Freed variant. You need:
2 bounce dual lands, at least one of which produces blue mana
1 recursion wizard
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Ghostly Flicker
However, one thing I've found playing this deck is that it can do ANYTHING... but NOT all at once. Often when I spend tutors on getting Krosan Restorer or Freed from the Real, I end up getting my plans destroyed and wishing I had tutored for more recursion or sac outlets instead. With this combo, you don't have to choose, because you want to get bounce lands with your land tutors anyway (as d0su explained above), and a recursion wizard is almost always good, and ghostly flicker is almost always very good when you have a recursion wizard. So you assemble your combo in passing WHILE exercising control over the game. It just happens. And then BOOM, Grim Harvest on that faery you cycled waaaaay back and it's finished.
Also, it is instant speed. With restorer, I can't pass the turn without at least one counter 1v1 if I don't have Crimson Wisps, and the number of counters needed in multiplayer gets impractical, so then I really need Wisps, making restorer a three card combo. And at that point, Faery combo is easier to assemble. The best part is that it takes up fewer slots and has fewer dead cards in hand. Faery is the only dedicated combo piece and it cycles.
All this made me rebuild the mana base quite significantly in the third version. In the interest of fitting everything I needed in the deck, I contemplated using more spell lands to not make Ghostly Flicker dead too often without needing to run ETB creatures that I don't find that valuable (Tilling Treefolk and Farhaven Elf for instance). Notably, Piranha Marsh is a win con that kills the table and doesn't use the red zone when you combo off. Teetering Peaks is similar, making for an infinite CoA during combo or just adding pseudo fire-breathing to CoA with Flicker+Wizard in play. I also included Sejiri Steppe as I've been having lots of problems with exiling removal on CoA while relying too much on sorcery speed outlets like Sidisi's Faithful. This has also made me cut down on recursion auras as a means to quickly recur CoA, since they are lost on exile.
Another observation regarding the flicker engine: Archaeomancer and Izzet Chronarch are pretty bad cards by themselves. Compare for example with Elven Cache, which almost nobody runs. Their bodies are pretty insignificant, so it's only the card type that makes them interesting, because we can abuse it. However, abuse with Capsize or Grim Harvest is very clunky and mana intensive. Reaping the Graves is even worse, unless you're recurring CoA, the wizard and at least one other useful creature. So the real value is in the combo with Ghostly Flicker. This makes me a firm believer that you only need the best two wizards, and Vedalken Aethermage to assemble one or both (something Mystical Teachings can do single-handedly with Aethermage in the deck). Aethermage also grabs the best sac outlet, in fact the only one that is reusable in pauper, Sidisi's Faithful, as well as a few other utility cards. I much prefer big draw like Foresee and Deep Analysis to running Mnemonic Wall and Scrivener, and with Aethermage you actually have a MUCH higher probability of getting a recursion wizard when you need one (thanks to tutor chaining) than through stocking up on these rather overcosted creatures.
Anyway, this is my current list and I would love to hear your thoughts about it!
Might seem a bit thin on land, but if you combine land+ramp+land fetch (like Expedition Map) there are actually 50 sources in there, which I have found to be just perfect when combined with bigger draw/dig to secure late game drops. The bounce duals help with this too. I know I'm missing Reaping the Graves, but with so few creatures I've missed a solid recursion spell in the 4 CMC slot for Dimir House Guard more than mass recursion at 3 CMC, so right now I'm going with Breath of Life instead.
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Another excellent post and decklist Urdjur! As d0su mentioned earlier in the thread, I too am amaze at your ability to constantly innovate. I will have to sleeve this up and give it a go. Well done.
Very intertwine pay Urdjur. I'm going to give this a go as well. I really enjoy your intelligent analysis and discussion; one of the best posters i follow.
Thanks for the feedback guys! Zombie: You could try faeries combo in Merieke too. Only problem is no Crop Rotation or Reap and Sow, so you might need something to recur Expedition Map unless you run artifact recursion already. On the other hand, your list can make better use of Sunscape Familiar, which works as well as bounce dual #2.
Here are a few more thoughts on the new manabase I thought I'd share:
"Gold" sources: I count Wild/Expanse to this category too since they can fix any color. I know I was skeptical about Opal Palace before, but that was just a misread on my part. I thought it only gave counters on casting from Command Zone. But as long as you have it and use it, CoA is a 7/7 from the get go, and it only gets better the more often she ends up in the Command Zone. A 3-turn clock as compared to a 4-turn clock is a huge deal for just one more mana. The current list has many cards that can pump CoA for this reason, and all of them have other functions as well.
Panoramas: If there was a "all 5 basics" panorama, I think this mechanic (a colorless land that can turn into a basic for 2 net cost) would be preferable over wild/expanse (that MUST turn into a basic for a 1 net cost). However, a panorama that could only fetch 1 type of basic would be worse than just another basic. So this made me think that not all panoramas are equal. Specifically, being able to get either U or B is of little use, since both are about as valuable at all times and it's no problem to build the base so that both are abundant. Similarly, a choice between G, R or W is bad since you'd rather not get either of those basics if it can be helped. Hence, I find Bant and Jund to be the best Panoramas. They can fix green for ramp on turn 3, or they can get you another U or B source later, or they can fix a splash color if you really have to.
Bounce lands: You need 2 for combo, but running exactly 2 is dangerous since these lands are somewhat rewarding spot removal targets. With lots of ETB tapped lands however, running many can get clunky. 3 is the minimum if you want to cover all colors so you can fix mana easily with your any-land tutors. Note that Crop Rotation isn't actually card disadvantage if you get a bounce dual! With 3 lands, one source will be redundant and since at least one of the lands must be blue, it makes sense to run an Ux and an Uy bounce dual, with the third land covering the two missing colors. Not sure if it matters how exactly you pick beyond that, but it felt logical to associate splash colors with blue to me - that way you can fix while increasing your blue sources.
Guildgates and life duals: Interestingly, d0su mentioned that he did not run these at all because with all the cycling lands and panoramas, he didn't need to. And I agree, I overestimated the need for fixing at first. It turns out that there's more than one way to skin a dear and you can build 5c pauper mana bases that work well in many fashions. However, I still think that a few of these are very solid as a means to increase your green sources to secure that first green ramp spell that magically makes the build work. Hence I run the 4 green life duals and eschew the rest, guildgates and all. Life gain also make these lands semi-useful Ghostly Flicker targets when you have mana and nothing else to do with it.
Spell Lands: I covered these in the post above already. The only slightly useful one left out is Turntimber Grove. Teetering Peaks and Piranha Marsh are better tutor targets for their respective scenarios, and I'm not sure the redundancy from Grove is worth another ETBT land over that third forest. What do you think?
Cycling lands: Like panoramas, I don't think all of these are equally good either. Of course, those that cycle for a colored mana are more efficient, but also make more sense IMO. If I already have a red source, I can pay R to cycle a redundant red source. However, I almost always want to actually drop more blue and black sources, so I don't find these cyclers as useful. More early G/R/W sources without committing to many basics is good, because it means you can spend the green ramp on getting more U and B rather than W and R. And then when a bounce land comes along, you can pick up a cycler and cash in on the card advantage with no loss of splash sources. All the land fetching both in spells and lands is what really decides how the deck plays out in practice - the differences between the sources can be small from a deck build perspective, but still be vast on the table so to speak.
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I've been giving the deck - the pauper version, commons only - (With my own tweaks and such) my first spin today, and well...2-0.
First match was against Diaochan, Artful Beauty and Karador, Ghost Chieftain. Second one was against the same Diaochan, Angus Mackenzie and Muzzio, Visionary Architect. It's been playing marvelously. A few of my personal notes: Macabre Waltz and Dutiful Return felt like all-stars. They're not as fast as you'd like, but getting back one of the Archaeomancer suite and the Child is delicious. Mind Extraction does exactly nothing against Artifact decks. Annoying little quirk, that.
I found Rolling Thunder to be a bit underwhelming. By the time I could reliably cast it for decent damage, or for Child shenanigans, I already had board control.
All in all I love the deck already, and thank you for all the work already put in it - it's a lot of fun to play.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I've been giving the deck - the pauper version, commons only - (With my own tweaks and such) my first spin today, and well...2-0.
First match was against Diaochan, Artful Beauty and Karador, Ghost Chieftain. Second one was against the same Diaochan, Angus Mackenzie and Muzzio, Visionary Architect. It's been playing marvelously. A few of my personal notes: Macabre Waltz and Dutiful Return felt like all-stars. They're not as fast as you'd like, but getting back one of the Archaeomancer suite and the Child is delicious. Mind Extraction does exactly nothing against Artifact decks. Annoying little quirk, that.
I found Rolling Thunder to be a bit underwhelming. By the time I could reliably cast it for decent damage, or for Child shenanigans, I already had board control.
All in all I love the deck already, and thank you for all the work already put in it - it's a lot of fun to play.
Glad to hear you enjoyed it! I hope you will share the changes you made!
I too have Rolling Thunder on the chopping block. The days of killing people with recurring 10-damage burn spells are in the past, and once you combo and get infinite mana, Capsize works just as well as a wincon. But it kind of makes me sad... here I am considering cutting it, and they are finally going to print it in foil.
I have missed out on Death Denied, but honestly I'm not sure if it's better than Dutiful Return. They both have the same cost to return 2 creatures, which is usually what I need to keep going (One of the recursion mages + Child) and never have I needed to return more than one. I do play Reaping the Graves as well.
I do not play one of the infinite combos though. My playgroup isn't too fond of them and I decided to go full-out controlly on this one, moreso focussing on countering, blowing up and recurring. I'm still tinkering a bit with the list, but will put up one soon.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Sweet primer urdjur! It's been awhile since I posted here or lurked, but this is a nice change from the old thread. I wanted to pop in and share my pauper version since there's been a lot of cool cards printed for this deck recently.
That's one thing I wonder with Sidisi's Faithful: Can it save itself from being blown to bits by the Child if it exploits said child?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
That's one thing I wonder with Sidisi's Faithful: Can it save itself from being blown to bits by the Child if it exploits said child?
Yes, it can. Both triggers (CoA's and Sidisi's Faithful's) go on the stack, and you get to choose in which order. So if you choose to let Sidisi's Faithful's trigger to resolve first, she'll be able to bounce to your hand before Child dies and blows the board away.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
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Some questions about this build:
- Why Darksteel Citadel? Maybe Strip Mine replacing it?
- Is Mycosynth Wellspring worth the slot?
- How do you justify Trinket Mage with only 1 artifact land and so few 1-cmc artifact choices?
- Why not Expedition Map? This could justify Trinket Mage (and Strip Mine!) IMO.
- If you cut the combo, consider keeping Rolling Thunder (or the slightly easier to cast and harder to tweak Fireball) as an alt wincon.
- About draw spells, what do you think about Treasure Cruise?
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Mycosynth Wellspring isn't necessary, but seems like the best deal to be had in its class of cards. It fixes one color and grabs your second swamp/island when CoA explodes the first time, all for only 2 colorless mana. If we're not exploding CoA so often however, it could be reconsidered.
Trinket Mage is sort of part of a slippery slope: If Sidisi is as good as we think, we should run Vedalken Aethermage, but if we do, we should run more wizards like Trinket Mage, and then you need to add a few artifact lands etc. which inevitably weakens the deck to all the artifact removal in the format. I'm not sure about the mage and may drop it, vedalken and qasali for stronger options if I can rely on Dizzy Spell and its tutor chains to eventually get Sidisi instead. Now that I think about it, that is probably what I will do. I prefer Reap and Sow over Expedition Map anyway
Yeah, we should probably run an X-spell anyway and Crimson Wisps is a useful cantrip on its own, so the combo is probably staying.
Treasure Cruise is already in there and a tier 1 draw spell in the deck (right up there with Brainstorm, Compulsive Research and friends). Delving can work to your benefit by putting CoA back in the command zone for replay, making it act as pseudo-recursion too.
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What I would do is to play all 4 blue karoos + expedition map, all the return instant or sorcery creatures, ghostly flicker, franatic search and temporal fissure. Even if you dont combo none of those are dead cards and just slightly weaker than your current setup.
@Reaper: I think the Ghostly Flicker engine itself is not optimal in this deck anymore (see reply to Zombie above). Nor is running 4 karoos, if you're seeing any LD at all. But I suppose it's an option. To be fair though, Krosan Restorer is quite the mana accelerant on her own if you have threshold (until she explodes) and Freed can help lock down a voltron general that is bothering you if you're not ready to blow it up just yet (or perhaps, if it is indestructible).
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Welcome to the format! Unlike most other generals, CoA must actually die and go to the grave to blow up the world. Going to the command zone is no good, then you don't explode the world. Hence, all builds of CoA involve some recursion mechanism - usually eating anywhere from 5 to 10 cards of the build. However, most of these only return CoA to hand, making it costly to recast it. Cards like False Demise return CoA to play immediately so you can sweep end of turn and have a fresh CoA to swing on an empty field come your turn. Only Undying Evil is cheaper, but the auras have the added benefit of also stealing opposing creatures, making them less redundant than most other creature recursion. Since we're playing pauper, chances are we'll steal something much more powerful than we could run ourselves. Hope all this makes sense!
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Why do you need AoE removal? Isn't Child of Alara itself enough? Do you mind blowing up enchantments and artifacts when you go boom, or why do you care about these much less worthwhile sweepers? We don't even have to worry about tucking anymore. Anyway, if you must run more sweepers, you probably want Swirling Sandstorm.
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One thing I've tossed out is the utility land package. Running a rather good card like Bojuka Bog which is "almost the same as another swamp" (except we all know it isn't) makes you want to run stuff like Reap and Sow and Dimir Aqueduct and then you're skating down the slippery slope with Halimar Depths and lots of other stuff that are really just worse than basics. So I cut it. Ha! Mana fixing in pauper is tight as it is and I feel I cannot afford devoting tapped land slots to mono colored utility.
Since the deck now prefers casting t5 CoA with REB/Pyro to t4 CoA, we can afford to spend a turn to actually tutor for ramp (or REB/Pyro), which makes it much more consistent. Even if you don't have REB/Pyro, you can always bluff it! This also makes Panoramas better since there is more mana space in which to activate them, use cantrips that like shuffling etc. (Mycosynth Wellspring is back for the same reason - it was a mistake to cut it). I've included all five and still much prefer them to the three available laundry lands (Opal Palace etc). Laundry lands not only means at best t5 CoA tapping out, it also means 6 sources in play which is sometimes a bit of a stretch by turn 5. Anyway, here is my updated list:
5 Child of Alara
CREATURES (10)
4 Archaeomancer
4 Dimir House Guard
2 Dimir Infiltrator
3 Drift of Phantasms
3 Heliod's Pilgrim
3 Krosan Restorer
5 Mulldrifter
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
1 Sidisi's Faithful
1 Spore Frog
ARTIFACTS (5)
3 Commander's Sphere
3 Darksteel Ingot
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
ENCHANTMENTS (6)
1 Bequeathal
3 False Demise
3 Freed from the Real
3 Reality Acid
3 Shade's Form
3 Unhallowed Pact
SORCERIES (16)
2 Castigate
3 Compulsive Research
3 Cultivate
4 Deep Analysis
3 Far Wanderings
4 Foresee
3 Kodama's Reach
2 Merchant Scroll
3 Mind Extraction
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Primal Growth
3 Read the Bones
4 Reverent Silence
2 Rolling Thunder
8 Treasure Cruise
1 Brainstorm
3 Capsize
2 Counterspell
1 Crimson Wisps
2 Devour Flesh
1 Dizzy Spell
3 Faerie Trickery
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Grim Harvest
3 Harrow
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Mystical Teachings
2 Perilous Research
3 Perplex
1 Pyroblast
1 Reclaim
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Rewind
2 Shred Memory
3 Soul Manipulation
2 Terminate
1 Undying Evil
LANDS (40)
1 Command Tower
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Bant Panorama
1 Esper Panorama
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Jund Panorama
1 Naya Panorama
1 Bloodfell Caves
1 Blossoming Sands
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Rugged Highlands
1 Scoured Barrens
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Tranquil Cove
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Gruul Guildgate
1 Selesnya Guildgate
1 Simic Guildgate
2 Forest
6 Island
2 Mountain
2 Plains
6 Swamp
I've also slightly tweaked the ETBT duals towards green (rather than only U/B). The lands now feature 18 blue/black/green sources and 14 white/red sources. Colorless fixing/ramp adds 4 slots to that and green ramp/fixing adds another 6 slots to fix the last piece of the color puzzle.
Silver bullets: Capsize (everything), Castigate (graveyard combos/engines), Nihil Spellbomb (best GY hate IMO), Reality Acid (lands, indestructibles), Reverent Silence (Contamination locks, Humility etc), Spore Frog (against fast aggro, forms a quick lock with Grim Harvest)
Win cons: CoA beats + continous sweeping as needed, fatty/general theft (recursion auras), direct damage w/without Freed combo
The rest should be pretty standard.
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On another note, I am impressed that you continually find room for innovation in this deck. When new stuff comes out, I have a hard time cutting anything!
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Comparing Expedition Map with Mycosynth Wellspring is a lot like comparing Perilous Research with Perplex. If you're paying 3 to get 1 card rather than paying 2 to get 2, it had better be worth it. So any tutor is only better compared to draw, if the average power of the tutor targets beat the average power of your top decks by enough to motivate the mana cost difference. In the case of Perplex, then yeah - I'll gladly pay 3 mana for any 3 CMC card in the deck. With Expedition Map though, the power just isn't there in pauper. IMO, your non-basics are not so much better than basics that paying 3 to get 1 non-basic is worth it over 2 for 2 basics. Mycosynth Wellspring is very similar to a "Anyshard" Panorama that quickly gives an extra land in this deck. That's just bonkers. I mean, people play cards like Armillary Sphere and Horizon Spellbomb even in full power EDH decks and those are pretty much always worse.
If you really like the bounce/flicker potential of Bojuka Bog, there's no reason why you couldn't run it over Nihil Spellbomb though. Since I find wiping graveyards is largely irrelevant more than 50% of the time when I have such cards in hand, I prefer an option that "cycles" over a 0 CMC land that would then require another tutor go chain into when you really need it, and most likely a few other non-basic targets for that tutor that I'd rather not run to begin with.
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Thanks very much for starting and maintaining this thread, It's a very big help to me: since I've been constructing a Cube, I've been playing MTG on a very limited budget and because I've always enjoyed playing CoA as my commander I've been looking for a way to use her again but not having to invest a lot. This looks like it is exactly what I needed to kickstart my brand-new CoA deck! My build will be kind of hybrid: my playgroup doesn't exactly play PEDH and when we do, the commander is an unc. So i'll be using the spare nonbasic lands I have, plus a Life from the Loam I've got lying around and more stuff like that. I've decided that it'll be a nice challenge to invest as little as possible while still building something that will work, so my budget will be ten euro's.
So much for the introduction :). I'd like to share my concept build with you guys, and tell you what my build will look like. I'd also like you to shoot as many holes in it as you can... Here goes:
1 Bad River
1 Flood Plain
1 Grasslands
1 Mountain
1 Rocky Tar Pit
Dual fix (9)
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Battlefield Forge
Other fix (2)
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 City of Brass
Mono color (18)
1 Slippery Karst
1 Drifting Meadow
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Ancient Den
1 Great Furnace
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tree of Tales
1 Vault of Whispers
Colorless (4)
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Petrified Field
1 Rogue's Passage
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Evolution Charm
3 Search for Tomorrow
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
3 Wood Elves
3 Gaea's Bounty
4 Reap and Sow
3 Darksteel Ingot
RECURRING CREATURES (12)
2 Disturbed Burial
5 Unburial Rites
4 Gravedigger
1 Undying Evil
3 False Demise
3 Soul Manipulation
2 Grim Harvest
3 Reaping the Graves
5 Fool's Demise
2 Death Denied
3 Shade's Form
4 Gift of Immortality
RECURRING INSTANTS/SORCERIES
4 Archaeomancer
5 Mnemonic Wall
4 Mystic Retrieval
5 Izzet Chronarch
RECURRING LANDS
3 Tilling Treefolk
2 Life from the Loam
SAC OUTLETS
3 Mind Extraction
2 Perilous Research
2 Devour Flesh
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Terminate
2 Bound // Determined
1 Worthy Cause
4 Momentous Fall
3 Trinket Mage
3 Wargate
4 Diabolic Tutor
3 Perplex
4 Dimir House Guard
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Mystical Teachings
4 Jarad's Orders
2 Dimir Infiltrator
5 Brainspoil
3 Heliod's Pilgrim
UTILITY
3 Vindicate
3 Capsize
4 Deep Analysis
2 Momentary Blink
1 Spore Frog
3 Ghostly Flicker
2 Terminate
4 Anger
1 Nihil Spellbomb
0 Dark Depths
DRAW
1 Brainstorm
1 Serum Visions
8 Treasure Cruise
5 Soul's Majesty
5 Mulldrifter
If this is going to be the build, I'll be investing my ten euro's in the following cards:
- Mind Extraction
- Grim Harvest
- Fool’s Demise
- Bound // Determined
- Devour Flesh
- Izzet Chronarch
- Merchant Scroll
- Anger
- Evolution Charm
- Jarad’s Orders
- Blue Elemental Blast
- Momentous Fall
- Reaping the Graves
- Worthy Cause
- Gift of Immortality
- Mystical Teachings
- Shade’s Form
I'm very curious what you guys think :).
Greetings,
James
Hi and sorry for the late reply! Hope you're still interested in this deck. I think most of the information you're looking for can be found in the main page primer. Look at the budget list there and compare these options to your own.
If I interpret your list and ambition correctly, you already have stuff like Stage/Depths combo, and you're not willing to trade overpriced stuff like that to get more room in your budget to spend on cards that will help you win more?
OK, let's first look at your mana base. You have Bosk, Garden, Fountain and Tomb as duals that count as forests etc. This means you should be using the mirage fetches that get forests (2) and maybe Flood Plain, as this will give you maximum mana fix. The other two are just worse than Terramorphic Expanse/Evolving Wilds or the excellent tri-lands that are also dirt cheap. Farseek seems like a perfect ramp card for you, as well. I think you will find Evolution Charm and Gaea's Bounty disappointing - you should be running Kodama's Reach and Cultivate instead.
As for sac outlets/recursion, you're missing sac outlets in lands completely which is a big mistake at your budget level (see the primer) and I can also recommend Greater Gargadon. Blue Elemental Blast can be safely skipped. At your budget level, I would definetely skip the Ghostly Flicker engine and get Body Double and Eternal Witness. So cut all those instant recursion wizards and Disturbed Burial, Unburial Rites, Gravedigger, Reaping the Graves and Death Denied as they are simply not good in a deck with Fool's Demise and Gift of Immortality. You can cut Tilling Treefolk too, really. Grim Harvest can stay as a back up and for small creatures like spore frog and EWitness.
With Jarad's Orders and Body Double, you should also get Myojin of Night's Reach (very cheap) for a turn 4 "I WIN" button. See the primer. Your other utility seems adequate, but it's meta dependent.
As for your draw, cut visions and Soul's Majesty. With all the space you've now created cutting subpar recursion, add Ponder, Preordain, Foresee, Read the Bones etc. - see the primer. You might also consider more land tutors to get your combo and utility lands (see the primer there too). Good luck!
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Tnx for your reply. Absolutely no problem it's late - I'm glad you took the time to look through my list. I am definitely still interested in this build. Althouh I realise that my list isn't exactly what this primer is looking for since it's not very low-budget, I figured that it does helps to explore possibilities. Anyway, your comments are very helpful.
Before I built my deck, I read the entire primer. The list I posted above is a result of both cards I already had, plus the small investment I wanted to make. I've tested it a couple of times now and found that Gaea's Bounty was disappointing indeed. Evolution Charm has been helpful though. I already took out Ghostly Flicker and have been able to get my hands on a Body Double that I'll definitly run. Myojin of Night's Reach will be my next target.
I'll be doing the following changes for now:
- Ghostly Flicker
- Gaea's Bounty
- Soul's Majesty
+ Body Double
+ Farseek
+ Read the Bones
I'll be cutting Visions when I get my hands on a Preordain or Ponder. You're absolutely right about sac outlets in the land section, but since I don't realy like lands that only make colorless mana, I've only put Phyrexian Tower on my shortlist for now.
I've edited my list a bit last night and am about to test Rescue from the Underworld at a CMC of 5 it's pretty expensive, but it requires only B, plus it is (a) a sac outlet and (b) creature recursion. Thing is, of course, there needs to be a creature in your graveyard and moreover the card itself is exiled. Thoughts on this?
Also I've got a question about Capsize. You call it an all-star, but what makes it better in this list than in any other? Because being able to re-use your ETB critters foor five doesn't sound too appealing to me. Am I missing something here?
Capsize is actually 6 mana to cast and buyback. I'm not sure there aren't other decks where it is just as good, but here are a few things it has going for itself in this build:
- CoA blows up the world but has problems with indestructibles and lands, so you need answers to those. This is a pretty multipurpose answer.
- As a blue instant at 3 CMC, it is easy to tutor for in the deck.
- The deck makes use of various recursion engines. While Capsize isn't the most mana-efficient, it's still good if you have nothing else but lots of mana, and you're not running it for ETB abuse primarily anyway. It's just icing on the cake.
- You ramp a lot, probably more than most other decks with blue. Once you get to 12 lands, you can bounce 2 lands/turn with this card alone, which will doom an opponent without an answer.
- Most lists run an infinite mana combo. Capsize with infinite mana pretty much kills the table as you bounce everything. Combined with easy tutoring makes it also into a combo win con.
Thus, an "all-star" as it fills many roles in the deck. What is a five color control deck without a bounce spell? This is the best in the pauper card pool.
On another note, I think the most interesting development in this thread lately was Reaper's idea in post #80 about using Ghostly Flicker and Ravnica Karoos for the infinite combo instead of Restorer/Freed. I've recently come back to pauper (after the printing of Sidisi's Faithful) after playing this deck as a peasant variant. In peasant, I never bothered with the Ghostly Flicker engine, but I've noticed I miss it somewhat in pauper. This led me to test a few variants under casual circumstances at my own kitchen table:
- My previous list without Ghostly Flicker, only one Archaeomancer, and Restorer/Freed/Wisps combo.
- The "traditional" pauper list with Ghostly Flicker engine and Restorer/Freed/Wisps combo.
- A novel list with Ghostly Flicker engine and Cloud of Faeries combo.
It might be the sheen of novelty, but so far I'm liking the third option best. At first glance, the combo seems clumsy compared to the two card Restorer/Freed variant. You need:
2 bounce dual lands, at least one of which produces blue mana
1 recursion wizard
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Ghostly Flicker
However, one thing I've found playing this deck is that it can do ANYTHING... but NOT all at once. Often when I spend tutors on getting Krosan Restorer or Freed from the Real, I end up getting my plans destroyed and wishing I had tutored for more recursion or sac outlets instead. With this combo, you don't have to choose, because you want to get bounce lands with your land tutors anyway (as d0su explained above), and a recursion wizard is almost always good, and ghostly flicker is almost always very good when you have a recursion wizard. So you assemble your combo in passing WHILE exercising control over the game. It just happens. And then BOOM, Grim Harvest on that faery you cycled waaaaay back and it's finished.
Also, it is instant speed. With restorer, I can't pass the turn without at least one counter 1v1 if I don't have Crimson Wisps, and the number of counters needed in multiplayer gets impractical, so then I really need Wisps, making restorer a three card combo. And at that point, Faery combo is easier to assemble. The best part is that it takes up fewer slots and has fewer dead cards in hand. Faery is the only dedicated combo piece and it cycles.
All this made me rebuild the mana base quite significantly in the third version. In the interest of fitting everything I needed in the deck, I contemplated using more spell lands to not make Ghostly Flicker dead too often without needing to run ETB creatures that I don't find that valuable (Tilling Treefolk and Farhaven Elf for instance). Notably, Piranha Marsh is a win con that kills the table and doesn't use the red zone when you combo off. Teetering Peaks is similar, making for an infinite CoA during combo or just adding pseudo fire-breathing to CoA with Flicker+Wizard in play. I also included Sejiri Steppe as I've been having lots of problems with exiling removal on CoA while relying too much on sorcery speed outlets like Sidisi's Faithful. This has also made me cut down on recursion auras as a means to quickly recur CoA, since they are lost on exile.
Another observation regarding the flicker engine: Archaeomancer and Izzet Chronarch are pretty bad cards by themselves. Compare for example with Elven Cache, which almost nobody runs. Their bodies are pretty insignificant, so it's only the card type that makes them interesting, because we can abuse it. However, abuse with Capsize or Grim Harvest is very clunky and mana intensive. Reaping the Graves is even worse, unless you're recurring CoA, the wizard and at least one other useful creature. So the real value is in the combo with Ghostly Flicker. This makes me a firm believer that you only need the best two wizards, and Vedalken Aethermage to assemble one or both (something Mystical Teachings can do single-handedly with Aethermage in the deck). Aethermage also grabs the best sac outlet, in fact the only one that is reusable in pauper, Sidisi's Faithful, as well as a few other utility cards. I much prefer big draw like Foresee and Deep Analysis to running Mnemonic Wall and Scrivener, and with Aethermage you actually have a MUCH higher probability of getting a recursion wizard when you need one (thanks to tutor chaining) than through stocking up on these rather overcosted creatures.
Anyway, this is my current list and I would love to hear your thoughts about it!
5 Child of Alara
CREATURES (14)
4 Archaeomancer
3 Cadaver Imp
2 Cloud of Faeries
4 Dimir House Guard
2 Dimir Infiltrator
3 Drift of Phantasms
5 Izzet Chronarch
5 Mulldrifter
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
3 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Sidisi's Faithful
1 Spore Frog
2 Vedalken Aethermage
ARTIFACTS (3)
3 Darksteel Ingot
1 Expedition Map
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
ENCHANTMENTS (2)
3 Reality Acid
3 Shade's Form
SORCERIES (17)
4 Breath of Life
2 Castigate
3 Compulsive Research
3 Cultivate
4 Deep Analysis
3 Far Wanderings
4 Foresee
3 Kodama's Reach
2 Merchant Scroll
3 Mind Extraction
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Primal Growth
3 Read the Bones
4 Reap and Sow
2 Rolling Thunder
8 Treasure Cruise
1 Brainstorm
3 Capsize
2 Counterspell
1 Crop Rotation
2 Devour Flesh
1 Dizzy Spell
2 Evolution Charm
3 Faerie Trickery
3 Ghostly Flicker
2 Grim Harvest
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Mystical Teachings
2 Overrule
2 Perilous Research
3 Perplex
1 Pyroblast
1 Reclaim
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Rewind
2 Shred Memory
3 Soul Manipulation
2 Terminate
5 Traumatic Visions
1 Undying Evil
3 Unmake
LANDS (38)
1 Command Tower
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Opal Palace
1 Bant Panorama
1 Jund Panorama
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Blossoming Sands
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Rugged Highlands
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Halimar Depths
1 Pirahna Marsh
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Teetering Peaks
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forest
4 Island
2 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Swamp
Might seem a bit thin on land, but if you combine land+ramp+land fetch (like Expedition Map) there are actually 50 sources in there, which I have found to be just perfect when combined with bigger draw/dig to secure late game drops. The bounce duals help with this too. I know I'm missing Reaping the Graves, but with so few creatures I've missed a solid recursion spell in the 4 CMC slot for Dimir House Guard more than mass recursion at 3 CMC, so right now I'm going with Breath of Life instead.
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Here are a few more thoughts on the new manabase I thought I'd share:
"Gold" sources: I count Wild/Expanse to this category too since they can fix any color. I know I was skeptical about Opal Palace before, but that was just a misread on my part. I thought it only gave counters on casting from Command Zone. But as long as you have it and use it, CoA is a 7/7 from the get go, and it only gets better the more often she ends up in the Command Zone. A 3-turn clock as compared to a 4-turn clock is a huge deal for just one more mana. The current list has many cards that can pump CoA for this reason, and all of them have other functions as well.
Panoramas: If there was a "all 5 basics" panorama, I think this mechanic (a colorless land that can turn into a basic for 2 net cost) would be preferable over wild/expanse (that MUST turn into a basic for a 1 net cost). However, a panorama that could only fetch 1 type of basic would be worse than just another basic. So this made me think that not all panoramas are equal. Specifically, being able to get either U or B is of little use, since both are about as valuable at all times and it's no problem to build the base so that both are abundant. Similarly, a choice between G, R or W is bad since you'd rather not get either of those basics if it can be helped. Hence, I find Bant and Jund to be the best Panoramas. They can fix green for ramp on turn 3, or they can get you another U or B source later, or they can fix a splash color if you really have to.
Bounce lands: You need 2 for combo, but running exactly 2 is dangerous since these lands are somewhat rewarding spot removal targets. With lots of ETB tapped lands however, running many can get clunky. 3 is the minimum if you want to cover all colors so you can fix mana easily with your any-land tutors. Note that Crop Rotation isn't actually card disadvantage if you get a bounce dual! With 3 lands, one source will be redundant and since at least one of the lands must be blue, it makes sense to run an Ux and an Uy bounce dual, with the third land covering the two missing colors. Not sure if it matters how exactly you pick beyond that, but it felt logical to associate splash colors with blue to me - that way you can fix while increasing your blue sources.
Guildgates and life duals: Interestingly, d0su mentioned that he did not run these at all because with all the cycling lands and panoramas, he didn't need to. And I agree, I overestimated the need for fixing at first. It turns out that there's more than one way to skin a dear and you can build 5c pauper mana bases that work well in many fashions. However, I still think that a few of these are very solid as a means to increase your green sources to secure that first green ramp spell that magically makes the build work. Hence I run the 4 green life duals and eschew the rest, guildgates and all. Life gain also make these lands semi-useful Ghostly Flicker targets when you have mana and nothing else to do with it.
Spell Lands: I covered these in the post above already. The only slightly useful one left out is Turntimber Grove. Teetering Peaks and Piranha Marsh are better tutor targets for their respective scenarios, and I'm not sure the redundancy from Grove is worth another ETBT land over that third forest. What do you think?
Cycling lands: Like panoramas, I don't think all of these are equally good either. Of course, those that cycle for a colored mana are more efficient, but also make more sense IMO. If I already have a red source, I can pay R to cycle a redundant red source. However, I almost always want to actually drop more blue and black sources, so I don't find these cyclers as useful. More early G/R/W sources without committing to many basics is good, because it means you can spend the green ramp on getting more U and B rather than W and R. And then when a bounce land comes along, you can pick up a cycler and cash in on the card advantage with no loss of splash sources. All the land fetching both in spells and lands is what really decides how the deck plays out in practice - the differences between the sources can be small from a deck build perspective, but still be vast on the table so to speak.
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First match was against Diaochan, Artful Beauty and Karador, Ghost Chieftain. Second one was against the same Diaochan, Angus Mackenzie and Muzzio, Visionary Architect. It's been playing marvelously. A few of my personal notes:
Macabre Waltz and Dutiful Return felt like all-stars. They're not as fast as you'd like, but getting back one of the Archaeomancer suite and the Child is delicious.
Mind Extraction does exactly nothing against Artifact decks. Annoying little quirk, that.
I found Rolling Thunder to be a bit underwhelming. By the time I could reliably cast it for decent damage, or for Child shenanigans, I already had board control.
All in all I love the deck already, and thank you for all the work already put in it - it's a lot of fun to play.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Macabre Waltz looks interesting; I will have to consider it. If you enjoy Dutiful Return, are you also playing Reaping the Graves and Death Denied? Those both seem like stronger options overall.
I too have Rolling Thunder on the chopping block. The days of killing people with recurring 10-damage burn spells are in the past, and once you combo and get infinite mana, Capsize works just as well as a wincon. But it kind of makes me sad... here I am considering cutting it, and they are finally going to print it in foil.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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I do not play one of the infinite combos though. My playgroup isn't too fond of them and I decided to go full-out controlly on this one, moreso focussing on countering, blowing up and recurring. I'm still tinkering a bit with the list, but will put up one soon.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
1 Child of Alara
Creature (10)
1x Archaeomancer
1x Krosan Tusker
1x Mold Shambler
1x Mulldrifter
1x Predatory Nightstalker
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Sidisi's Faithful
1x Vulturous Aven
1x Yavimaya Elder
Instant (27)
1x Brainstorm
1x Capsize
1x Condescend
1x Contradict
1x Counterspell
1x Deprive
1x Dizzy Spell
1x Evolution Charm
1x Exclude
1x Faerie Trickery
1x Grim Harvest
1x Impulse
1x Into the Roil
1x Mana Leak
1x Memory Lapse
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Mystical Teachings
1x Nature's Claim
1x Negate
1x Perplex
1x Reclaim
1x Rewind
1x Shred Memory
1x Skred
1x Soul Manipulation
1x Terminate
1x Whispers of the Muse
1x Armillary Sphere
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Darksteel Pendant
1x Expedition Map
1x Horizon Spellbomb
1x Wayfarer's Bauble
Sorcery (22)
1x Ashes to Ashes
1x Breath of Life
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Compulsive Research
1x Consult the Necrosages
1x Cultivate
1x Deep Analysis
1x Far Wanderings
1x Farseek
1x Foresee
1x Innocent Blood
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Mind Extraction
1x Ponder
1x Preordain
1x Primal Growth
1x Rampant Growth
1x Read the Bones
1x Reap and Sow
1x Rolling Thunder
1x Treasure Cruise
Land (34)
1x Azorius Chancery
1x Bant Panorama
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Command Tower
1x Dimir Aqueduct
1x Dismal Backwater
1x Esper Panorama
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Grixis Panorama
1x Izzet Boilerworks
1x Opal Palace
1x Rupture Spire
1x Simic Growth Chamber
4x Snow-Covered Forest
8x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Mountain
1x Snow-Covered Plains
2x Snow-Covered Swamp
1x Swiftwater Cliffs
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Thornwood Falls
1x Tranquil Cove
1x Transguild Promenade
WU Rhystic Tron WU
WUBRG Snow-Go WUBRG
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Yes, it can. Both triggers (CoA's and Sidisi's Faithful's) go on the stack, and you get to choose in which order. So if you choose to let Sidisi's Faithful's trigger to resolve first, she'll be able to bounce to your hand before Child dies and blows the board away.