Anyone have updated lists post Khans, I've been tinkering with mine and will post it shortly but wanted to see what the Pauper Child Think Tank has come up with.
Well, the new duals allowed me to construct a more optimal pauper shell as described in my previous post. Apart from that, Treasure Cruise seems to be the only interesting new addition. Problem is you need about 4-5 useless duds in the yard to make it interesting, and at that point you probably have lots of mana anyway. Would love to hear reports on some testing with it.
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Well, the new duals allowed me to construct a more optimal pauper shell as described in my previous post. Apart from that, Treasure Cruise seems to be the only interesting new addition. Problem is you need about 4-5 useless duds in the yard to make it interesting, and at that point you probably have lots of mana anyway. Would love to hear reports on some testing with it.
I'm testing Treasure Cruise in my Peasant (8 uncommons) build over Forbidden Alchemy. I think the latter was a worse support card for me than Rush of Knowledge, but it depends on how grave-centric your build is (I eschew the Ghostly Flicker engine in peasant, for instance). Here's my latest Peasant list (the format our group uses the most for EDH), in case it interests you:
Heliod's Pilgrim is a choice I can only recommend if you run Fool's Demise. With my nifty aura package though, it's as versatile as the transmuters and comes with a body to boot.
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For those of us not playing the Peasant version and without access to Anger, I had a guy suggest Crimson Wisps today to enable us to combo with Krosan Restorer without passing the turn. It only costs one mana to cycle in every other scenario, so I think it could be good here. Gonna give it a shot.
Spore Frog is another one I will be testing as a way to deter early attacks and set up a more easily achievable soft lock against aggro.
To make room for all this, I am digging into the core of the deck and cutting Disturbed Burial, Dizzy Spell, and Vedalken Aethermage. I'm just not sure they are needed, plus they are pretty expensive to use even if they do have a lot of utility. I'm hoping that trimming down the mana curve will help shore up unfavorable matchups and smooth things out overall.
Now that I've gotten to play this baby quite a bit in the past few weeks, I figured I'd drop by and post by list. Only thing I want to look into is the addition of Krosan Restorer + Freed from the Real. I'd love to know how Crimson Wisps and the other changes d0su has been working on pan out as well as new ideas anyone else is trying.
Looks solid. Gravedigger instead of Cadaver Imp surprised me at first but makes sense looking at the rest of your list. Deep Analysis over Foresee also caught me off guard. Why are you using it over the latter?
I find myself low on cards in the mid-late part of the game sometimes and Deep Analysis provides a way for me to refill up my hand, even if I cast it earlier in the game. I had Foresee in it a while back, but I ended up just liking Deep Analysis more. I could see myself adding Foresee back in the future. I just recently added Rush of Knowledge to this list and it has more than proven itself. I don't know why I was always so hesitant to add it in the first place.
Some considerations:
Trinket Mage + Artifact Lands: this provide even less need for green mana.
Nihil Spellbomb is more easily tutorable than Bojuka Bog (Dizzy Spell and Trinket Mage) and makes you draw a card. YMMV but I think it’s a draw (no pun intended) here. Anyway I have both now, let’s see.
Tilling Treefolk + Cycling lands: proven to be good in mid-game.
Disturbed Burial + Spore Frog is one of the strongest soft locks I’ve seen working, d0su
15 green sources (more than 1/7 of the deck so I’m able to ramp T2).
18 black sources, check
20 blue sources, including 14 that comes into play untapped: I can counter/capsize something fast and awful after 3 draws.
Hi Zombie, I totally forgot this one. For now I'll cut a 2cmc tutor (have 3) to put it. Thanks!
Have to test Expedition Map to see if it's worth it (w/ Bojuka Bog). Also want to test Negate and Disdainful Stroke and ditch Arcane Denial. Thoughts?
I know d0su is testing Disdainful Stroke and it seems like a good swap for Arcane Denial. Arcane Denial seems a little more versatile on paper but I'm very curious to see how testing turns out.
Wait a minute! We forgot Unknown Shores!!! It's a clone of Shimmering Grotto... Will ditch an Island and put this.
Also, maybe I'll replace a Forest for that another 2-transmute (Dimir Infiltrator, I guess) and leave the deck with 38 lands. With the new rainbow land I'll be able to have (still) green mana sources, 20 blue ones and increase black to 19. Not bad
Good to see lot's of activity in the thread lately! A few thoughts:
Counter package: To me, Arcane Denial and Dream Fracture are the very best counters available for the deck in *multiplayer*. If you're playing lots of 1-vs-1, I think the soft-counters like Condescend and Overrule are good replacements for these (high CC counters are also pretty bad in multiplayer, so it's an easy swap). I think Counterspell, Muddle the Mixture, Faerie Trickery, Rewind and Soul Manipulation are the five staple counters that should always be included, and they alone go a long way (I never count Perplex as a counter since you can't depend on it when it matters - it is of course a must-include anyway). If you still need more counters than these 5+2 (and do you really?), then you can start looking at more situational stuff like Negate, Exclude, Disdainful Stroke. These will never be as good as the ones already mentioned though - replacing Arcane Denial with either is just terrible if all you play is multiplayer. Also, anyone running Dizzy Spell will want a 1 CMC sac outlet, and if you can't run uncommons (Worthy Cause) and see any decks with blue at all, REB/Pyro (or both) is your best bet.
Card draw: Treasure Cruise has been awesome in my list. You typically want to cast it for 4 or less (this makes it at least on par with Foresee and Deep Analysis), and I find that roughly half of the graveyard "bulk" is of key interest in any given board position. So as a rule of thumb, you'll be able to cast it profitably roughly when you hit Threshold, and at that point, mana availability is still a concern for me at least, so the delving to reduce casting costs is almost always useful. A cool side effect is that Treasure Cruise can put CoA in the command zone as a pseudo-recursion if you have no better options than to replay CoA for 2 more. This is very useful reset button after a lengthy attrition way when a few remaining opponents have finally dismantled your recursion engine - you pay U, draw 3 and replay CoA from the CZ, probably drawing into a sac outlet, recursion piece or tutor for either with plenty of mana open at that point (turn 20+). On the flip side, Fact or Fiction really hasn't measured up to the "OMG broken!" standard I've come to expect from my uncommons. Yes, it's better than the Forbidden Alchemy it replaced, but not by enough to merit an uncommon slot really. I'm thinking about going back to Alchemy and instead replacing the rather lack luster Revoke Existence with better removal such as Bant Charm or maybe Return to Dust (though double white deters me somewhat). Finally Rush of Knowledge never fails to disappoint. It is a *very* strong Brainspoil target, so especially in lists with few other 5 CMC targets that still want Brainspoil to dig out a tucked CoA, I can really recommend it.
Mana base: I find that Commander's Sphere is just what the doctor ordered for my list. I need a density of ramp to make t4 CoA, but drawing ramp rather than lands when you need to make your regular drops is frustrating. The sphere helps by modulating the land-to-ramp ratio in a splendid way, works excellent with CoA, and enables 1 drops of any color on turn 3 just like ingot. It also reduced the need for green! This allows a few tweaks in the tap lands. I've found that the best duals are the ones that combine blue or black mana with red or white. You see, you want to avoid fetching dedicated red and white sources if possible - or at least one of them. Still, you need enough basics for speed, as you can't have too many ETBT lands. So you max out on black and blue, minimize white and red, and make up the remainder with Forests. However the duals can make it so that you don't actually need to fetch mountains and plains that much, which is preferable - you'd much rather have an Izzet Guildgate and fetch a Swamp, than have a Dimir Guildgate and fetch a Mountain. The extra point of life from the new common duals is really nice, but by far not worth warping your mana base for. Rather, we should rejoice that we can now play the best color combination of duals in double copies. As for the bounce lands however, Dimir Aqueduct is still best because you can use the color of mana it produces most readily, so that's the one to include if you want a tutor target for bouncing Bojuka Bog etc.
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Urdjur, what's the reasoning for running Darksteel Citadel in your peasant list?
Because it and Darksteel Ingot are pretty much my only outs to mass land removal. Oh, and counters (but: Obliterate + opps play counters too). If you go into rares, you have better options to recover such as Flagstones of Trokair and Life from the Loam, but in Peasant, Darksteel Citadel is at least a small band aid to help a glaring weakness. Best option though is to tutor for Mind Extraction and strike the LD player pre-emptively, but sometimes there isn't time (Jhoira of the Ghitu comes to mind). I have considered playing Castigate as a catch-all answer for various shenanigans (recursion engines that go between hand and graveyard for instance) and it would be useful to help this situation too. Thoughts?
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I don't typically play against people playing Obliterate so I guess I'm spoiled :P. As far as other mass LD spells are concerned, it's always at the top of my, make sure I have an answer to this at all times list. Unfortunately sometimes it happens and you just get wrecked, but I tend to just either hold onto Tilling Treefolk or a means of tutoring for it if possible. This might be too conservative, but it has worked out alright in the past.
I'll consider Dream Fracture and Commander's Sphere in my maybeboard (the Trinket Mage pack and Freed/Restorer combo left no space for now), will acquire them with the 2 rainbow lands I forgot to put in my deck. TC and Far Wanderings were a nonbo for me once. I drew 3 after delving 5 or so and the first one was the ramp spell I have one already but I guess I'm set on the draw package.
As for the lands, the extra point of life is a neat bonus but the 2-of you said id the key. Ingot, 7 rainbows, an artifact land and a basic covers the need for red and white (10 sources). If practice proves my manabase is wrong, I'll toss more basics and/or ETBuT lands.
Thanks for your thoughts urdjur, as always
Castigate sounds really interesting. I'm sure there will be times where the key cards that are giving you challenges won't there but upending their next play could be huge regardless.
I am kind of new to magic, and definitely new to building EDH decks. Ended up winding down to a lands deck because it seems really interesting to me (I love complicated interactions).
Started looking at the gromgrom primer but a lot of the cards are just way out of budget, I want to play with the deck before committing a lot of resources to it. I do have nice cards that I drafted which I can use to fund this deck tho, a verdant catacombs that I might end up playing and hopefully use that with shock lands or something.
So my question is how can I mold this pauper version closer to a 'lands' deck that uses child as board control? When I look at the lists you guys are posting they seem very light on lands compared to gromgroms, but is that just a side effect of using pauper cards? If so I wouldnt mind starting off with more 'control' oriented build like whats posted.
Using the followin sac/recur with child I'd like control the board
or just use Kessig to pump child when he's temporarily back with corpse dance. I think Glacial Chasm would be nice to fit in there too but I'm not sure if these ideas skew the deck too much when trying to compensate for the pauper cards (which urdjur eluded to in his OP by the mana distribution changing when you had cheaper cards). As a newbie to building a deck it gets a little confusing at this point, because I also though of throwing in manlands; Raging Ravine and utilizing Sundial of the Infinite to end-turn and drop anyone targeting my manlands, thus protecting them. I guess that Idea I can drop, but my main focus is to use lands as a focus to win - but hopefully not with maze's end as I kind of see it a little bit boring. I do really like inkmoth though.
I am kind of new to magic, and definitely new to building EDH decks. Ended up winding down to a lands deck because it seems really interesting to me (I love complicated interactions).
Welcome to the game and forum!
When I look at the lists you guys are posting they seem very light on lands compared to gromgroms, but is that just a side effect of using pauper cards?
Partly. First off, gromgrom sets the deck out to be a lands deck that happens to run CoA as its 5C commander of choice (for board control). This requires the use of rare lands to work, making it an unsuitable concept for pauper. There's no particular reason to build a non-pauper CoA deck like that though, and there are many other lists out there that focus more on what's aptly termed "child abuse", just like this primer.
but I also want to work towards a win with stuff like
Kessig Wolf Run, Rogue's Passage , Inkmoth Nexus
or just use Kessig to pump child when he's temporarily back with corpse dance. I think Glacial Chasm would be nice to fit in there too but I'm not sure if these ideas skew the deck too much when trying to compensate for the pauper cards (which urdjur eluded to in his OP by the mana distribution changing when you had cheaper cards). As a newbie to building a deck it gets a little confusing at this point, because I also though of throwing in manlands; Raging Ravine and utilizing Sundial of the Infinite to end-turn and drop anyone targeting my manlands, thus protecting them. I guess that Idea I can drop, but my main focus is to use lands as a focus to win - but hopefully not with maze's end as I kind of see it a little bit boring. I do really like inkmoth though.
Yeah, I don't think building this nicely will be a problem, the problem will be to figure out what exactly you want to build. What is a "lands" deck to you? Personally I think Maze End is a trap, probably Valakut too as far as win cons are concerned. Depending on how much you want to spend, Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage has good synergy with CoA since the token is indestructible.
To me with my style of play, CoA is plenty efficient as a win con in itself, but it can only get better with stuff like Kessig Wolf Run and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion. If you include pump lands, then maybe Inkmoth as a back-up can be a consideration too if you have it already, but I wouldn't include any manlands beyond that as it will just be inefficient. The laundry lands mentioned in the primer are really solid if you go this route with many colorless utility lands, and cheap fixing too.
Glacial Chasm seems doable with Life from the Loam which is sort of key to your build anyway, but since land cheating enchantments don't stay on board with CoA, the chasm will mostly come into play when you don't really care about land drops anymore and you can afford to spend them on Chasm. Then again, once must ask why you would need Chasm with CoA being able to blow everything up when you feel like. Perhaps just a few counters to cover weaknesses is better? With Loam, definetely run Forbid on that note.
Corpse Dance
Grim Harvest
Naya Charm
Soul Manipulation
Ugh. So many better options. Gift of Immortality. Free continous recursion. Best card in the deck and costs about a dollar. Fool's Demise has the same mana efficiency as Corpse Danse, but is a bit easier to use with creature transmute tutors. Can also steal opposing generals and whatnot. Soul Manipulation and Grim Harvest are solid if you have the room. Honestly don't think Naya Charm is worth it - all its effects seem overcosted and not central to the deck to me. You'd be better off with Eternal Witness.
Grim Backwoods
Worthy Cause
Bound // Determined
These are all solid budget options, but I wouldn't miss out on Greater Gargadon either. If you have money to spend, Phyrexian Tower is one of the best investments for the deck. Grim Backwoods is a fine budget option though.
Some cheap cards that I think you "must" run regardless are:
Another means of free recursion comes from combining Lark, Saffi and Body Double with CoA. Body Double impersonates CoA but qualifies for Lark recursion once it hits the grave. As you blow it up, Saffi will return Lark and Lark will return Saffi and BD, conserving this board state indefinetely for no mana investment. The pieces for this formidable engine are affordable enough to be staples in any rare build. Lark combined with either Saffi or BD will also recur any utility creature with power 2 or less indefinetely, which is awesome with all your instant speed sac outlets. If constant sweeping feels like an outmoded concept, how about constant countering with Mystic Snake instead?
Good luck!
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So I wanted to come back and make an update post since I did finally finish my list and bought all my missing cards to construct my first well thought out EDH deck. So far its actually really awesome!
What I ended up with is definitely not a 'lands' deck unfortunately, but it was just getting way to thin/expensive when heading towards that direction. Instead I have a very cool blend of land utility mixed with your pauper/budget version of the child deck. It works great so far, and I have been making some changes & additions as I play more games. I've won a few games, and my losses aren't really that bad considering some of them come from bad draw (I'm ok with this as long as I feel my average draws will be playable).
Some of my wins centered around Corpse Dance & Gift of Immortality used on Child of Alara, but one of my first games I really saw the strength of other ETB effect creatures when I combined gift with Mulldrifter and drew cards non stop. Another very worthy mention is Greater Gargadon because it was just an amazing sac outlet and I'm really glad I took your advice on putting it in (initially I was skeptical). The funny part is I have so little red cost (literally that, child, and kessig) but it just works out so well. I added Regrowth, which I think you might have too, simply because I started feeling I needed my recursion to be extremely reliable.
The big differences in my list are my super budget manlands Faerie Conclave, Treetop Village, Spawning Pool which I plan on replacing with something more expensive over time like Creeping Tar pit & Raging Ravine. I have already cut one manland (nantuko) because it was an extra colorless source and just seemed horrible every time i drew it. Also I have the odd ball win con Liege of the Tangle who came in late and won me two games thanks to my ability to board clear and dwindle down the presence of my opponents. I also threw in Coiling Oracle and Grand Abolisher as support. Terra Eternal is in here as well, but I haven't used it yet although I expect it to increase in value as my manlands become more potent.
My counter section is kind of a mishmash of random stuff but is quite similar to yours. I have Sultai Charm & Consuming Vapors also threw in Archon of Justice, Spine of Ish Sah, Mystic Snake. I have Capsize and then the two counters you suggest: Arcane Denial, Dream Fracture. The counters are ok, I have soul manipulation and perplex as well but theyre more for tutoring 3 CMC card which actually has become a big theme in my deck.
Tutors are somewhat low, and its an area I am currently trying to reform a bit. Drift of phantasms added and shredded memory was removed, perplex was always in and does well at grabbing corpse dance or one of the many other 3CMCs in my deck. I stayed away from transmutes that weren't for 3 because my list shifted away from most of the cards on your list that werent 3 cost.
My ramps almost identical to yours, I have walking atlas, sakura-tribe scout in there because I needed to fill spaces and I like the idea of have really big ramp. Crop rotations in there, and works almost like a tutor sometimes because I can get high market or just mana fix myself with Command Tower.
The shell otherwise is really different, I had drafted lands that were available to me that make my list way out of budget Verdant Catacombs & Windswept Heath are both in there because I have drafted them and I love making my shell the strong part of my deck - it just seems cool to be efficient with the mana for me. Murmuring Bosk, Transguild promenade, Rupture spire are in there as well which I love to have because they offer all the colors. I plan on replacing some of the others with some shock lands at some point (when I want to add money to the deck) so I can get more use out of the two fetches that I have, but so far I am pretty happy with the mana. I don't turn 3/4 child often, but I'd like to fix it up a bit so thats in my range of abilities.
This is getting very long so I'll stop now, maybe I will post a full list like you guys have after a bit so you can see if you're interested or want to give more advice. I will say that I really enjoy playing the deck so far, its very fun and gives me a lot of options on what to do each turn. One thing I don't know if I really like a lot is constantly wiping the board to stay in control - because it seems distressing for other players. I also would like the utility to steer more towards lands (adding volrath's stronghold and phyrexian tower might help that a lot but theyre very expensive in my eyes so I will wait a while before I upgrade to something like that).
Kessig costs XRG, where as sunhome is 2RW. Sunhome will double my damage for only 4 mana, whereas any creature above 3 power would cost more mana to get the same amount of damage increase. Example: a 3/3 with kessig would need 5 mana to double its attack power but sunhome only needs 4 mana to double. This differents gets much worse with big creatures. Liege doubles his damage for 4 mana while kessig would cost 10 mana! I know kessig gives trample, but is that really worth eating up all my mana just to pump a creature when I could stay at a nice 4 cost and get good value for the damage? I feel like I want to replace kessig with sunhome, but I am not sure and would love to hear other peoples opinions on this.
edit: Also big thanks to urdjur for the advice and posting this primer, it was a huge help to getting me started.
Liege is a surprise to be sure, but hey if it wins you games it has earned its slot! Of the cards you mention, I would only definetely recommend cutting Walking Atlas as you can do MUCH better than that for no money at all. I'm not very fond of Terra Eternal (LftL has much better CoA synergy) or Consuming Vapors (really? so many better cheap rare sac outlets) either.
One thing I don't know if I really like a lot is constantly wiping the board to stay in control - because it seems distressing for other players.
It is, and you shouldn't. You don't stay in control by wiping the board, you stay in control by being ABLE to wipe the board. At instant speed, preferably with uncounterable (or several) sac outlets. Don't over-sweep. Occasionally win by other stuff as a diversion for your opponents (like Liege in your case). You know you're still in control but your friends think they have a shot. You know they don't, but don't rub it in their faces.
I feel like I want to replace kessig with sunhome, but I am not sure and would love to hear other peoples opinions on this.
No contest to me, I think you should do it!
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CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
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I will also be testing Disdainful Stroke. I know you folks expressed your dislike already, but I'm thickheaded and need more convincing.
I am also considering taking out Disturbed Burial, and re-adding Soul Manipulation in its place. I think the deck has evolved beyond sorcery-speed value loops like casting Yavimaya Elder over and over again. Grim Harvest and Reaping the Graves should be enough.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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4 Anger (U)
4 Dimir House Guard
2 Dimir Infiltrator
3 Drift of Phantasms
3 Eternal Witness (U)
3 Farhaven Elf
3 Heliod's Pilgrim
5 Mulldrifter
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
ARTIFACTS (4)
3 Darksteel Ingot
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
ENCHANTMENTS (5)
1 Bequeathal
5 Fool's Demise (U)
3 Necromancy (U)
3 Reality Acid
3 Shade's Form
SORCERIES (18)
5 Brainspoil
3 Compulsive Research
3 Cultivate
4 Deep Analysis
2 Demonic Tutor (U)
3 Far Wanderings
4 Foresee
3 Kodama's Reach
2 Merchant Scroll
3 Mind Extraction
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Primal Growth
4 Reap and Sow
2 Revoke Existence
5 Rush of Knowledge
3 Search for Tomorrow
8 Treasure Cruise
2 Altar's Reap
2 Arcane Denial
1 Brainstorm
3 Capsize
2 Counterspell
2 Devour Flesh
1 Dizzy Spell
3 Dream Fracture
4 Fact or Fiction (U)
3 Faerie Trickery
2 Grim Harvest
3 Harrow
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Mystical Teachings
1 Mystical Tutor (U)
2 Perilous Research
3 Perplex
4 Rewind
2 Shred Memory
3 Soul Manipulation
2 Terminate
1 Undying Evil
1 Worthy Cause (U)
LANDS (40)
1 Command Tower
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguid Promenade
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Azorius Guildgate
1 Simic Guildgate
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Dismal Backwater
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Tranquil Cove
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Halimar Depths
1 Darksteel Citadel
6 Forest
6 Island
2 Mountain
2 Plains
6 Swamp
Heliod's Pilgrim is a choice I can only recommend if you run Fool's Demise. With my nifty aura package though, it's as versatile as the transmuters and comes with a body to boot.
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Spore Frog is another one I will be testing as a way to deter early attacks and set up a more easily achievable soft lock against aggro.
To make room for all this, I am digging into the core of the deck and cutting Disturbed Burial, Dizzy Spell, and Vedalken Aethermage. I'm just not sure they are needed, plus they are pretty expensive to use even if they do have a lot of utility. I'm hoping that trimming down the mana curve will help shore up unfavorable matchups and smooth things out overall.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Vedalken Aethermage
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Tilling Treefolk
1 Archaeomancer
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Gravedigger
1 Izzet Chronarch
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Mulldrifter
ARTIFACTS (4)
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
SORCERIES (11)
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Disturbed Burial
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Cultivate
1 Far Wanderings
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Mind Extraction
1 Deep Analysis
1 Rush of Knowledge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Brainstorm
1 Condescend
1 Reclaim
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Altar's Reap
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Dawn Charm
1 Deglamer
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Evolution Charm
1 Fling
1 Grim Harvest
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Shred Memory
1 Terminate
1 Capsize
1 Dream Fracture
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Perplex
1 Reaping the Graves
1 Rend Flesh
1 Soul Manipulation
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Wrecking Ball
1 Azorius Guildgate
1 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Dismal Backwater
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Halimar Depths
1 Izzet Guildgate
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Rupture Spire
1 Simic Guildgate
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Tranquil Cove
1 Tranquil Thicket
5 Forest
7 Island
2 Mountain
2 Plains
5 Swamp
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
My update decklist is here (to avoid rework, it's the same link in my sig).
Choices based on urdjur's topics, as well and fast as I can:
Sac outlets: Terminate, Mind Extraction, Devour Flesh, Wrecking Ball, Pyroblast, and Perilous Research.
Recurring instants and sorceries: Ghostly Flicker, Archaeomancer, Izzer Chronarch, Mnemonic Wall, Cavern Harpy, and Reclaim (well this last one recurs anything).
Recurring creatures: Undying Evil, Grim Harvest, Disturbed Burial, Soul Manipulation, Cadaver Imp, Reaping the Graves, Death Denied, and Urborg Uprising.
Recurring lands: Tilling Treefolk.
Tutors: Dizzy Spell, Vedalken Aethermage, Shred Memory, Muddle the Mixture, Merchant Scroll, Perplex, Drift of Phantasms, Mystical Teachings, and Brainspoil.
Dig: Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Impulse, Darksteel Pendant, Sea Gate Oracle, and Forbidden Alchemy.
Ramp: Wayfarer’s Bauble, Darksteel Ingot, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Farhaven Elf, Evolution Charm, Search for Tomorrow, Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Far Wanderings, and Trinket Mage.
(Pure) Counters: Arcane Denial, Counterspell, and Faerie Trickery.
Support: Freed from the Real, Krosan Restorer, Mulldrifter, Qasali Pridemage, Spore Frog, Rush of Knowledge, and Deep Analysis.
Silver Bullets: Capsize, Rolling Thunder, and Nihil Spellbomb.
Obviously a card can be in more than one category.
Some considerations:
Trinket Mage + Artifact Lands: this provide even less need for green mana.
Nihil Spellbomb is more easily tutorable than Bojuka Bog (Dizzy Spell and Trinket Mage) and makes you draw a card. YMMV but I think it’s a draw (no pun intended) here. Anyway I have both now, let’s see.
Tilling Treefolk + Cycling lands: proven to be good in mid-game.
Disturbed Burial + Spore Frog is one of the strongest soft locks I’ve seen working, d0su
15 green sources (more than 1/7 of the deck so I’m able to ramp T2).
18 black sources, check
20 blue sources, including 14 that comes into play untapped: I can counter/capsize something fast and awful after 3 draws.
Happy 2015 for all you Dreamcrushers!
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Have to test Expedition Map to see if it's worth it (w/ Bojuka Bog). Also want to test Negate and Disdainful Stroke and ditch Arcane Denial. Thoughts?
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Also, maybe I'll replace a Forest for that another 2-transmute (Dimir Infiltrator, I guess) and leave the deck with 38 lands. With the new rainbow land I'll be able to have (still) green mana sources, 20 blue ones and increase black to 19. Not bad
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Counter package: To me, Arcane Denial and Dream Fracture are the very best counters available for the deck in *multiplayer*. If you're playing lots of 1-vs-1, I think the soft-counters like Condescend and Overrule are good replacements for these (high CC counters are also pretty bad in multiplayer, so it's an easy swap). I think Counterspell, Muddle the Mixture, Faerie Trickery, Rewind and Soul Manipulation are the five staple counters that should always be included, and they alone go a long way (I never count Perplex as a counter since you can't depend on it when it matters - it is of course a must-include anyway). If you still need more counters than these 5+2 (and do you really?), then you can start looking at more situational stuff like Negate, Exclude, Disdainful Stroke. These will never be as good as the ones already mentioned though - replacing Arcane Denial with either is just terrible if all you play is multiplayer. Also, anyone running Dizzy Spell will want a 1 CMC sac outlet, and if you can't run uncommons (Worthy Cause) and see any decks with blue at all, REB/Pyro (or both) is your best bet.
Card draw: Treasure Cruise has been awesome in my list. You typically want to cast it for 4 or less (this makes it at least on par with Foresee and Deep Analysis), and I find that roughly half of the graveyard "bulk" is of key interest in any given board position. So as a rule of thumb, you'll be able to cast it profitably roughly when you hit Threshold, and at that point, mana availability is still a concern for me at least, so the delving to reduce casting costs is almost always useful. A cool side effect is that Treasure Cruise can put CoA in the command zone as a pseudo-recursion if you have no better options than to replay CoA for 2 more. This is very useful reset button after a lengthy attrition way when a few remaining opponents have finally dismantled your recursion engine - you pay U, draw 3 and replay CoA from the CZ, probably drawing into a sac outlet, recursion piece or tutor for either with plenty of mana open at that point (turn 20+). On the flip side, Fact or Fiction really hasn't measured up to the "OMG broken!" standard I've come to expect from my uncommons. Yes, it's better than the Forbidden Alchemy it replaced, but not by enough to merit an uncommon slot really. I'm thinking about going back to Alchemy and instead replacing the rather lack luster Revoke Existence with better removal such as Bant Charm or maybe Return to Dust (though double white deters me somewhat). Finally Rush of Knowledge never fails to disappoint. It is a *very* strong Brainspoil target, so especially in lists with few other 5 CMC targets that still want Brainspoil to dig out a tucked CoA, I can really recommend it.
Mana base: I find that Commander's Sphere is just what the doctor ordered for my list. I need a density of ramp to make t4 CoA, but drawing ramp rather than lands when you need to make your regular drops is frustrating. The sphere helps by modulating the land-to-ramp ratio in a splendid way, works excellent with CoA, and enables 1 drops of any color on turn 3 just like ingot. It also reduced the need for green! This allows a few tweaks in the tap lands. I've found that the best duals are the ones that combine blue or black mana with red or white. You see, you want to avoid fetching dedicated red and white sources if possible - or at least one of them. Still, you need enough basics for speed, as you can't have too many ETBT lands. So you max out on black and blue, minimize white and red, and make up the remainder with Forests. However the duals can make it so that you don't actually need to fetch mountains and plains that much, which is preferable - you'd much rather have an Izzet Guildgate and fetch a Swamp, than have a Dimir Guildgate and fetch a Mountain. The extra point of life from the new common duals is really nice, but by far not worth warping your mana base for. Rather, we should rejoice that we can now play the best color combination of duals in double copies. As for the bounce lands however, Dimir Aqueduct is still best because you can use the color of mana it produces most readily, so that's the one to include if you want a tutor target for bouncing Bojuka Bog etc.
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CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
Because it and Darksteel Ingot are pretty much my only outs to mass land removal. Oh, and counters (but: Obliterate + opps play counters too). If you go into rares, you have better options to recover such as Flagstones of Trokair and Life from the Loam, but in Peasant, Darksteel Citadel is at least a small band aid to help a glaring weakness. Best option though is to tutor for Mind Extraction and strike the LD player pre-emptively, but sometimes there isn't time (Jhoira of the Ghitu comes to mind). I have considered playing Castigate as a catch-all answer for various shenanigans (recursion engines that go between hand and graveyard for instance) and it would be useful to help this situation too. Thoughts?
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
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CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
As for the lands, the extra point of life is a neat bonus but the 2-of you said id the key. Ingot, 7 rainbows, an artifact land and a basic covers the need for red and white (10 sources). If practice proves my manabase is wrong, I'll toss more basics and/or ETBuT lands.
Thanks for your thoughts urdjur, as always
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
I am kind of new to magic, and definitely new to building EDH decks. Ended up winding down to a lands deck because it seems really interesting to me (I love complicated interactions).
Started looking at the gromgrom primer but a lot of the cards are just way out of budget, I want to play with the deck before committing a lot of resources to it. I do have nice cards that I drafted which I can use to fund this deck tho, a verdant catacombs that I might end up playing and hopefully use that with shock lands or something.
So my question is how can I mold this pauper version closer to a 'lands' deck that uses child as board control? When I look at the lists you guys are posting they seem very light on lands compared to gromgroms, but is that just a side effect of using pauper cards? If so I wouldnt mind starting off with more 'control' oriented build like whats posted.
Using the followin sac/recur with child I'd like control the board
Recusion
Corpse Dance
Grim Harvest
Naya Charm
Soul Manipulation
Sac outlet
Grim Backwoods
Worthy Cause
Bound // Determined
but I also want to work towards a win with stuff like
Kessig Wolf Run, Rogue's Passage , Inkmoth Nexus
or just use Kessig to pump child when he's temporarily back with corpse dance. I think Glacial Chasm would be nice to fit in there too but I'm not sure if these ideas skew the deck too much when trying to compensate for the pauper cards (which urdjur eluded to in his OP by the mana distribution changing when you had cheaper cards). As a newbie to building a deck it gets a little confusing at this point, because I also though of throwing in manlands; Raging Ravine and utilizing Sundial of the Infinite to end-turn and drop anyone targeting my manlands, thus protecting them. I guess that Idea I can drop, but my main focus is to use lands as a focus to win - but hopefully not with maze's end as I kind of see it a little bit boring. I do really like inkmoth though.
Welcome to the game and forum!
Partly. First off, gromgrom sets the deck out to be a lands deck that happens to run CoA as its 5C commander of choice (for board control). This requires the use of rare lands to work, making it an unsuitable concept for pauper. There's no particular reason to build a non-pauper CoA deck like that though, and there are many other lists out there that focus more on what's aptly termed "child abuse", just like this primer.
Yeah, I don't think building this nicely will be a problem, the problem will be to figure out what exactly you want to build. What is a "lands" deck to you? Personally I think Maze End is a trap, probably Valakut too as far as win cons are concerned. Depending on how much you want to spend, Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage has good synergy with CoA since the token is indestructible.
To me with my style of play, CoA is plenty efficient as a win con in itself, but it can only get better with stuff like Kessig Wolf Run and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion. If you include pump lands, then maybe Inkmoth as a back-up can be a consideration too if you have it already, but I wouldn't include any manlands beyond that as it will just be inefficient. The laundry lands mentioned in the primer are really solid if you go this route with many colorless utility lands, and cheap fixing too.
Glacial Chasm seems doable with Life from the Loam which is sort of key to your build anyway, but since land cheating enchantments don't stay on board with CoA, the chasm will mostly come into play when you don't really care about land drops anymore and you can afford to spend them on Chasm. Then again, once must ask why you would need Chasm with CoA being able to blow everything up when you feel like. Perhaps just a few counters to cover weaknesses is better? With Loam, definetely run Forbid on that note.
Ugh. So many better options. Gift of Immortality. Free continous recursion. Best card in the deck and costs about a dollar. Fool's Demise has the same mana efficiency as Corpse Danse, but is a bit easier to use with creature transmute tutors. Can also steal opposing generals and whatnot. Soul Manipulation and Grim Harvest are solid if you have the room. Honestly don't think Naya Charm is worth it - all its effects seem overcosted and not central to the deck to me. You'd be better off with Eternal Witness.
These are all solid budget options, but I wouldn't miss out on Greater Gargadon either. If you have money to spend, Phyrexian Tower is one of the best investments for the deck. Grim Backwoods is a fine budget option though.
Some cheap cards that I think you "must" run regardless are:
Myojin of Night's Reach + Body Double + Jarad's Orders. If attacking with Alara is your main win con, you also want Anger as another good Orders target. Genesis too, if you have it or the money to spend.
Saffi Eriksdotter + Reveillark. I include a snippet from the primer.
Good luck!
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
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What I ended up with is definitely not a 'lands' deck unfortunately, but it was just getting way to thin/expensive when heading towards that direction. Instead I have a very cool blend of land utility mixed with your pauper/budget version of the child deck. It works great so far, and I have been making some changes & additions as I play more games. I've won a few games, and my losses aren't really that bad considering some of them come from bad draw (I'm ok with this as long as I feel my average draws will be playable).
Some of my wins centered around Corpse Dance & Gift of Immortality used on Child of Alara, but one of my first games I really saw the strength of other ETB effect creatures when I combined gift with Mulldrifter and drew cards non stop. Another very worthy mention is Greater Gargadon because it was just an amazing sac outlet and I'm really glad I took your advice on putting it in (initially I was skeptical). The funny part is I have so little red cost (literally that, child, and kessig) but it just works out so well. I added Regrowth, which I think you might have too, simply because I started feeling I needed my recursion to be extremely reliable.
The big differences in my list are my super budget manlands Faerie Conclave, Treetop Village, Spawning Pool which I plan on replacing with something more expensive over time like Creeping Tar pit & Raging Ravine. I have already cut one manland (nantuko) because it was an extra colorless source and just seemed horrible every time i drew it. Also I have the odd ball win con Liege of the Tangle who came in late and won me two games thanks to my ability to board clear and dwindle down the presence of my opponents. I also threw in Coiling Oracle and Grand Abolisher as support. Terra Eternal is in here as well, but I haven't used it yet although I expect it to increase in value as my manlands become more potent.
My counter section is kind of a mishmash of random stuff but is quite similar to yours. I have Sultai Charm & Consuming Vapors also threw in Archon of Justice, Spine of Ish Sah, Mystic Snake. I have Capsize and then the two counters you suggest: Arcane Denial, Dream Fracture. The counters are ok, I have soul manipulation and perplex as well but theyre more for tutoring 3 CMC card which actually has become a big theme in my deck.
Tutors are somewhat low, and its an area I am currently trying to reform a bit. Drift of phantasms added and shredded memory was removed, perplex was always in and does well at grabbing corpse dance or one of the many other 3CMCs in my deck. I stayed away from transmutes that weren't for 3 because my list shifted away from most of the cards on your list that werent 3 cost.
My ramps almost identical to yours, I have walking atlas, sakura-tribe scout in there because I needed to fill spaces and I like the idea of have really big ramp. Crop rotations in there, and works almost like a tutor sometimes because I can get high market or just mana fix myself with Command Tower.
The shell otherwise is really different, I had drafted lands that were available to me that make my list way out of budget Verdant Catacombs & Windswept Heath are both in there because I have drafted them and I love making my shell the strong part of my deck - it just seems cool to be efficient with the mana for me. Murmuring Bosk, Transguild promenade, Rupture spire are in there as well which I love to have because they offer all the colors. I plan on replacing some of the others with some shock lands at some point (when I want to add money to the deck) so I can get more use out of the two fetches that I have, but so far I am pretty happy with the mana. I don't turn 3/4 child often, but I'd like to fix it up a bit so thats in my range of abilities.
This is getting very long so I'll stop now, maybe I will post a full list like you guys have after a bit so you can see if you're interested or want to give more advice. I will say that I really enjoy playing the deck so far, its very fun and gives me a lot of options on what to do each turn. One thing I don't know if I really like a lot is constantly wiping the board to stay in control - because it seems distressing for other players. I also would like the utility to steer more towards lands (adding volrath's stronghold and phyrexian tower might help that a lot but theyre very expensive in my eyes so I will wait a while before I upgrade to something like that).
One question I've been debating with myself that I would like some input on is Kessig Wolf Run vs Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion.
Kessig costs XRG, where as sunhome is 2RW. Sunhome will double my damage for only 4 mana, whereas any creature above 3 power would cost more mana to get the same amount of damage increase. Example: a 3/3 with kessig would need 5 mana to double its attack power but sunhome only needs 4 mana to double. This differents gets much worse with big creatures. Liege doubles his damage for 4 mana while kessig would cost 10 mana! I know kessig gives trample, but is that really worth eating up all my mana just to pump a creature when I could stay at a nice 4 cost and get good value for the damage? I feel like I want to replace kessig with sunhome, but I am not sure and would love to hear other peoples opinions on this.
edit: Also big thanks to urdjur for the advice and posting this primer, it was a huge help to getting me started.
Liege is a surprise to be sure, but hey if it wins you games it has earned its slot! Of the cards you mention, I would only definetely recommend cutting Walking Atlas as you can do MUCH better than that for no money at all. I'm not very fond of Terra Eternal (LftL has much better CoA synergy) or Consuming Vapors (really? so many better cheap rare sac outlets) either.
It is, and you shouldn't. You don't stay in control by wiping the board, you stay in control by being ABLE to wipe the board. At instant speed, preferably with uncounterable (or several) sac outlets. Don't over-sweep. Occasionally win by other stuff as a diversion for your opponents (like Liege in your case). You know you're still in control but your friends think they have a shot. You know they don't, but don't rub it in their faces.
No contest to me, I think you should do it!
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
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