So, the deck is based around infinite-mana combo. To get infinite mana, you need 1) something that untaps lands 2) something to untap the thing that untap lands 3) lands that produce at least 2 mana.
It's easy to get the #1 thanks to the general, so all we need is a land that taps for more than 1 mana (really easy to get and hard to disrupt) and finally something to untap Kiora (a little harder).
Finally, I added a deathtouch package. It will help you deal with your opponent's early threats. In multiplayer, it plays a good political game by making your opponents attacking each others, while you can assemble the combo with Viridian Longbow to start killing creatures easily. Also, with Freed from the Real, Viridian Longbow is basically Koth of the Hammer's emblem but for Islands. Pay U to untap the equipped creature and tap it again to do 1 damage. Alternative win condition without the need to go infinite (while it is an instant win if you have already infinite mana).
Now, even with all the tutors this deck have, I'm looking for some suggestions about addition win conditions that wouldn't take too much card slots and that could be easy to assemble. Please give me your ideas about this, I cut Ulamog's Crusher because of the lack of creature recursion (and I will usually use Reclaim and Elven Cache to get back combo parts like Freed from the Real). If there could be some more things to do with a lot of mana, that would be great. Because even when this deck doesn't get to infinite mana, it's is really easy to get to more than 10 mana, so any reusable spell (like Capsize) that is good by its own could take a slot there.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Nobody seems excited about the format or about the new general I guess, no suggestions to improve my list?
Edit: played a little bit yesterday and it doesn't seem that bad to only rely on the combo to win. It is really hard to go through all the deathtouchers and Viridian Longbow.
I'm thinking about adding Salvage, a sorcery-speed Reclaim. Elven Cache is obviously the better card as far as card advantage goes, but when you need to draw cards and get back something like Mysteries of the Deep or just a combo part, I think it is still worth it and with all the cantrips this deck has, even Salvage as a sorcery is good because you will usually get the card on the same turn anyway. And those are rarely dead cards, getting back Yavimaya Elder early on is good too.
And just controlling the board Capsizeing twice every turn while attacking with any of the 2 to 4 power dudes isn't that bad either.
2nd Edit: finally swapped out Waterfront Bouncer for Salvage. I always felt like the Bouncer wasn't really doing much in my deck with no recurable way of getting back creatures from my graveyard easily.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Ordered the rest of the cards now that Kiora's Follower is finally released. The full art promo only launches on game day next month, I will have to wait a little bit to get my hands on it.
I'm going to play a few games with the deck this Friday.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
How does the general facilitate any combos? Does it let you go infinite in some way?
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How does the general facilitate any combos? Does it let you go infinite in some way?
Well, just read my original post, as I said, you need 3 parts to go infinite which are described as parts 1), 2) and 3) in my post. As you can see, Kiora's Follower is in the part 1.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I had Dawn's Reflection in my opponer, which helped me a lot to ramp into bigger spells and tutors. I was able to counter Karn and Bolas, which have me enough time to finally draw Merchant Scroll into Frantic Search. Found Seagate Oracle and Ghostly Flicker, had to draw a few more cards and finally got Freed. Infinite mana that I used to find Archeomancer with Vedalken AEthermage. Got back Flicker, drew my entire deck blinking Archeo and Seagate with infinite mana. Capsized his whole board then attacked for infinite thanks to Wildheart Invoker.
Was a good game overall, I like the deck. The cantrips and tutors (Scroll and transmute cards) make it consistent. I just need to better learn the deck, my decisions with Merchant Scroll or the 3 transmute spells aren't easy.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Sorry, didn't check the OP and missed the "any PERRMANENT" bit. Do you think this or Zameck Guildmage is the better simic infinite combo general? This relies more on FftR instead of redundant pathways (like Cloud of Faeries or High tide), but doesn't always win on the spot when it goes off.
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Don't forget about Galvanic Alchemist. For the combo, I prefer Kiora by far, and there is also one thing really interesting about Kiora and all the aura (enchant land) I play: it does ramp a lot. Without going infinite, you quickly get to a point where you can Capsize twice per turn, and that's what also makes this deck really resilient. The mana base is really hard to attack in pauper (Mold Shambler is the only card that comes to my mind).
About Cloud of Faeries and High Tide: I don't play those because I don't think those cards are good alone, you really need to combo off to get value of those cards. Fertile Ground will always ramp and be good with Kiora. But High Tide doesn't do much, and the Faerie has a really weak body. I know it's infinite with Ghostly Flicker and a creature to return Flicker to my hand but I don't think it's resilient enough. When adding a card to my deck, I always ask myself: is this card good alone, by itself? And it's not.
Overall, Kiora helps you get mana while Guildmage gives you something to do with the mana. Problem is... early game, Kiora will ramp into big spells while Guildmage simply does nothing. And it is a lot easier to attack the combo enabler than the actual instant/sorcery spells you could use to win on the spot with infinite mana. Having Kiora always available in the command zone makes me feel safer.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Played a few games and the deck performs quite good. I'm looking for more land enchants to make it easier to get more and more mana (it is actually not that easy to get a 4 mana producing land).
I could remove either Cultive/Kodama's Reach, I have to think about this.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
1 Ambush Viper
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Nightshade Peddler
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Vedalken AEthermage
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Galvanic Alchemist
1 Krosan Restorer
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Trinket Mage
1 Winged Coatl
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Archaeomancer
1 Elgaud Shieldmate
1 Kessig Recluse
1 Mold Shambler
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Wildheart Invoker
1 Greater Basilisk
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Mulldrifter
1 Krosan Tusker
Artifacts:4
1 Expedition Map
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Viridian Longbow
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
Sorceries:14
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Salvage
1 Commune with the Gods
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Train of Thought
1 Compulsive Research
1 Deep Analysis
1 Elven Cache
1 Foresee
1 Reap and Sow
1 Temporal Fissure
1 Brainstorm
1 Condescend
1 Dizzy Spell
1 Nature's Claim
1 Reclaim
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Evolution Charm
1 Impulse
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Capsize
1 Frantic Search
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Gush
1 Mysteries of the Deep
Enchantments:7
1 Wild Growth
1 Fertile Ground
1 Lignify
1 Freed from the Real
1 Overgrowth
1 Rhystic Study
1 Shielding Plax
1 Verdant Haven
1 Dawn's Reflection
Lands:35
1 Bant Panorama
1 Command Tower
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Evolving Wilds
12 Forest
1 Halimar Depths
12 Island
1 Opal Palace
1 Rupture Spire
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Simic Guildgate
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Kiora's Follower
So, the deck is based around infinite-mana combo. To get infinite mana, you need 1) something that untaps lands 2) something to untap the thing that untap lands 3) lands that produce at least 2 mana.
1) Kiora's Follower and Krosan Restorer
2) Freed from the Real and Galvanic Alchemist (need to be able to untap 4 mana with this one)
3) Simic Growth Chamber, Fertile Ground, Verdant Haven, Dawn's Reflection
It's easy to get the #1 thanks to the general, so all we need is a land that taps for more than 1 mana (really easy to get and hard to disrupt) and finally something to untap Kiora (a little harder).
Once you get to infinite mana, you have infinite of those: Capsize, Train of Thoughts, Wildheart Invoker.
To get the combo going, you need to play a lot of cantrips. This deck does. You will also need to be able to protect the combo: Counterspell, Arcane Denial, Muddle the Mixture, Condescend, Elgaud Shieldmate.
You may need some recursion: Elven Cache, Reclaim, Archaeomancer, Mnemonic Wall, Ghostly Flicker and Waterfront Bouncer for ETB effects.
Finally, I added a deathtouch package. It will help you deal with your opponent's early threats. In multiplayer, it plays a good political game by making your opponents attacking each others, while you can assemble the combo with Viridian Longbow to start killing creatures easily. Also, with Freed from the Real, Viridian Longbow is basically Koth of the Hammer's emblem but for Islands. Pay U to untap the equipped creature and tap it again to do 1 damage. Alternative win condition without the need to go infinite (while it is an instant win if you have already infinite mana).
Now, even with all the tutors this deck have, I'm looking for some suggestions about addition win conditions that wouldn't take too much card slots and that could be easy to assemble. Please give me your ideas about this, I cut Ulamog's Crusher because of the lack of creature recursion (and I will usually use Reclaim and Elven Cache to get back combo parts like Freed from the Real). If there could be some more things to do with a lot of mana, that would be great. Because even when this deck doesn't get to infinite mana, it's is really easy to get to more than 10 mana, so any reusable spell (like Capsize) that is good by its own could take a slot there.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Edit: played a little bit yesterday and it doesn't seem that bad to only rely on the combo to win. It is really hard to go through all the deathtouchers and Viridian Longbow.
I'm thinking about adding Salvage, a sorcery-speed Reclaim. Elven Cache is obviously the better card as far as card advantage goes, but when you need to draw cards and get back something like Mysteries of the Deep or just a combo part, I think it is still worth it and with all the cantrips this deck has, even Salvage as a sorcery is good because you will usually get the card on the same turn anyway. And those are rarely dead cards, getting back Yavimaya Elder early on is good too.
And just controlling the board Capsizeing twice every turn while attacking with any of the 2 to 4 power dudes isn't that bad either.
2nd Edit: finally swapped out Waterfront Bouncer for Salvage. I always felt like the Bouncer wasn't really doing much in my deck with no recurable way of getting back creatures from my graveyard easily.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'm going to play a few games with the deck this Friday.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
Well, just read my original post, as I said, you need 3 parts to go infinite which are described as parts 1), 2) and 3) in my post. As you can see, Kiora's Follower is in the part 1.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I had Dawn's Reflection in my opponer, which helped me a lot to ramp into bigger spells and tutors. I was able to counter Karn and Bolas, which have me enough time to finally draw Merchant Scroll into Frantic Search. Found Seagate Oracle and Ghostly Flicker, had to draw a few more cards and finally got Freed. Infinite mana that I used to find Archeomancer with Vedalken AEthermage. Got back Flicker, drew my entire deck blinking Archeo and Seagate with infinite mana. Capsized his whole board then attacked for infinite thanks to Wildheart Invoker.
Was a good game overall, I like the deck. The cantrips and tutors (Scroll and transmute cards) make it consistent. I just need to better learn the deck, my decisions with Merchant Scroll or the 3 transmute spells aren't easy.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
About Cloud of Faeries and High Tide: I don't play those because I don't think those cards are good alone, you really need to combo off to get value of those cards. Fertile Ground will always ramp and be good with Kiora. But High Tide doesn't do much, and the Faerie has a really weak body. I know it's infinite with Ghostly Flicker and a creature to return Flicker to my hand but I don't think it's resilient enough. When adding a card to my deck, I always ask myself: is this card good alone, by itself? And it's not.
Overall, Kiora helps you get mana while Guildmage gives you something to do with the mana. Problem is... early game, Kiora will ramp into big spells while Guildmage simply does nothing. And it is a lot easier to attack the combo enabler than the actual instant/sorcery spells you could use to win on the spot with infinite mana. Having Kiora always available in the command zone makes me feel safer.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I could remove either Cultive/Kodama's Reach, I have to think about this.
In:
Overgrowth
Wild Growth
Out:
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
BPauper Glissa EDHG
WMaw of the Obzedat PDHB