I like the idea of an emblem. Having a threshold makes the most sense, but when it's random it probably makes for more random games.
Lol if only I bought some of the archenemy boxes. I think they came out when I was not really playing much magic.
I think the random swamps will not be so bad. It is always possible for ridiculously early or late swamps, but I think it will be alright most of the time.
I think I will probably go with one of the threshold ideas, but I'm not sure which one is better. For the first threshold idea, it would be funny if the players are not attacking enough and the horde gets way out of hand. I'll probably try that first, but I think the other idea is easier to do since it will just be for the first turns where you count it. I'll probably only count the player turns as well, and most likely won't count the setup turns.
What if you did it in waves? Cut your deck into halves, thirds, quarters, etc. for the number of players. Flip from one pile at a time, and each time you clear a pile, you increase the number of cards flipped. That way, thematically it's like how the zombies get harder and more desperate every time the heroes reach a checkpoint, and mechanically, the game will be tougher.
That would be a nice way to do it. It would make it a lot easier to keep track of as well. I will most likely just roughly guess the pile sizes so that it's not 100% accurate, but close enough. Quick setups is nice.
The only thing I dislike about doing it based on deck size is that it will promote not attacking and instead building a big board state. Attacking the deck brings it closer to more difficulty that way, so players will only attack for the final swing. In the games I've played, it has typically been 80-130 damage (huge, unhindered board presence). I like the 'time' feel that turns will give. That way, the players are pressured into more attacking for a quicker victory
A combination of both could certainly work though. Maybe each seciton of the deck can increase the turn counter by the number of players or something.
I'll probably try a ton of stuff out and report back the results.
The posts about waves and thresholds make me remember another rule I read somewhere: the Big Wave. Every once in a while, the Horde gets to reveal a huge load of cards.
You could do it based on the number of cards left, or just have a turn counter. But in both cases, you can prepare and see it coming. How about rolling a d6 every turn, and then when the counter hits 0 the horde gets a big wave? It would just need to start at 35 or so, instead of 10. On average, you still have 10 turns between Waves that way.
Of course, without the Big Wave idea, you could still use this to determine the time to increment the reveals. I just came up with it, but I already like it because of the randomness (but without too much hassle to determine it).
That could work too. How big would the wave be? Maybe something like 1 extra wave per player, so it will be reveal until 5 non-tokens are revealed and then cast all of them for 4 players, but only do it 3 times for 2 players.
That could be interesting. The horde will sort of reset the game every few turns and force the players to do something about it, but it wouldn't just completely crush the players after a crazy turn.
I've decided to try out an explore deck The players can decide if they want to use it before each game. It will be like adding planechase to a regular game, but probably a lot less significant.
Here are the rules I came up with:
The explore deck is set off to the side. Once per turn (not sure if I need to limit it), each player may tap a creature and pay 2 (haven't decided on a mana cost or if any at all) to send that creature off to explore. This can only be done as a sorcery.
When a creature explores, reveal the top card of the explore deck. If it is an:
Artifact - Put it into play under your control.
Land - Put it into play under your control.
Creature - Put it into play under your control unless it is a zombie. If it is a zombie, the exploring creature fights it. If the zombie survives, put it into play under the horde's control. Fighting here will be done as a full combat step so that first strike and "combat damage" effects work.
Other - If it is an instant, sorcery, or aura, it is cast targetting your exploring creature (the aura will be controlled by the player who controls the exploring creature - even if it is a negative effect). If the creature has shroud or hexproof (or is an illegal target for any other reason), the spell does not cast and exploring does nothing. If the spell targets a player, the controller of the exploring creature is the target. If the spell has no target, treat it as though the controller of the exploring creature cast it.
If a card obtained by exploring would leave play, it is put into the explore discard pile instead.
It's a little bit wordy, but it will be easy to explain. I threw together a 75 card explore deck for fun, but I'll probably test it out before I post it (there will most likely be a ton of changes too - I threw it together in ~1 hour).
I thought it would be funny to make the creatures go off exploring (and really easy to make rules for) as opposed to having players themselves explore. It's really funny because your poor creature might get mauled to death by a zombie brute or something lol. I even stuck in a couple hideous ends for flavour It'll also bring great use to shroud and hexproof which normally do nothing against my horde. Having some zombies to make the creatures fight is important so that players don't just send their weak chumps off to explore.
Some example explorations: Scavenged Weaponry - Some improvised weapons. May as well use them. The exploring creature gets enchanted by scavenged weaponry and the controller of the exploring creature draws a card. Hideous End - Your creature was unfortunate and ran into a trap! The exploring creature is targetted by hideous end. If that creature isn't black (or protection from black or shroud/hexproof), it will get destroyed and the controller of that creature will lose 2 life. Otherise, the spell will just be put into the explore discard pile. Deft Duelist - You found a buddy! Put it into play under the exploring creature's controller's control. Zombie Brute - Not so friendly. Make it "fight" your exploring creature. Regardless of if your creature dies or not, if the zombie survives the combat, put it into play under the horde's control. Forgotten Cave - Your creature discovered a forgotten cave. Put it into play under your control. Reviving Dose - A nice health potion! It restores the body AND mind. The controller of the exploring creature gains 3 life and draws a card.
I used Temporal Extortion for extra turns I love the tension of trying to figure out which option is better - half our life, or another turn for the horde.
The occasional extra flips are probably a good idea. It will give the horde a turn every once in a while to turn the game around a bit.
I will probably get a chance to test out the explore deck on saturday. I want to stick in some really cool things - probably the whole kaldra set (which will be almost impossible to assemble lol - but that time when it happens...). Maybe a legendary creature or 2, as well as possibly a really scary zombie. The rules are already in place though and the deck I threw together has a nice balance I think. I'll definitely post the results.
EDIT
I forgot to mention that there are also 'quests' in my explore deck. They are the enchantments from zendikar that give you stuff if they have enough quest counters on them. They just enter the battlefield under your control if your creature finds it. I think they'll be fun.
Couple additional rules that I will probably add to my explore deck :
- When a permanent enters the battlefield under your control from the explore deck, you may have target player gain control of it (donate it upon getting it so you can sort of share it).
- When a card from the explore deck tells you to "search your library", you search the explore library instead.
The first rule is so you can share items that won't be very good for you, and the second rule is for things like expedition map and quest for the holy relic - they make more sense if they arenot things in your own deck.
EDIT2
OMFG I have to put in feeding frenzy! The poor explorer accidently walks into all the zombies lmao
That sounds like a lot of fun SAUS. I might propose an alternate style of Horde to my play group similar to yours and maybe we'll switch between them if they like it. A friend in my group and I are thinking of actually designing story-based Horde decks with side quests and explore mechanics like this. Sort of like D&D magic. The idea sounds fun haha.
I wanted to share with you guys a little gem I found, Shepherd of Rot is a pretty strong card I feel. I haven't tried it out yet but when I'll do I'll update you guys. Just hadn't seen it mentioned yet.
I'm doing a major overhaul to my deck soon while adding some new features such as Gravecrawler and maybe Sightless Ghoul treated as tokens to give a bit more variety to the fighting. The flavor is wonderful too.
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----Commander----
The Mimeoplasm, Pest Control
Marath, Mononoke's Call
Kruphix, Walking the Horizon
Ephara, Miracles in a Flash
Balthor, A Short Story About Zombies
Seizan, Truth or Draw
Talrand, Journey to the Sky
Feldon, Artificial Love ----Modern----
BW Tokens
Melira Pod (Retired) ----Horde----
Zombies!
@Micaelis
I never tried shepherd of rot. I think I was worried about him doing too much damage He could probably get in though.
Gravecrawler is awesome. I really want one for my deck. He doesn't do a lot of damage, but he will just always come back.
@Donfuan
Oh man nice ideas.
My favourite addition that I found this morning is norin the wary! It's a flavour overload! He is basically useless for fighting (unless your deck is built to use him), but he can go off exploring for you! Anything he finds while exploring will be cast, and so he will ALWAYS dodge absolutely everything (so flavourful!). He basically explores for free, but will leave all zombies alone (ie the horde gets them), so it's not overpowered.
I'll probably play with the explore deck a little bit today as well as some rules for increasing the horde waves (probably try a few different ones). I'll report how it goes
Haha very true. I'm glad everlasting torment worked out for you all the zombies having wither is quite awesome too. It makes blocking really interesting. My friend's Uril had 9 -1/-1 counters on him once from blocking zombies because we couldn't afford taking the damage.
That's a reason I want to put self-mill in my horde deck so that some of the crazy graveyard stuff will trigger itself. Making each horde move really scary makes the game really interesting.
How many cards do you have in your horde deck? I'd also love seeing it if you don't mind posting it
Sorry for leaving you hanging SAUS...real life came in and took over everything for a while.
I've found, as others have said, that the games tend to be incredibly lopsided due to bad draws for the horde. I've been playing around with the rules and believe that what works best for our playgroup is if the horde draws cards equal to the number of players each turn before its usual Reveal step. After all the cards are revealed, the horde plays the cards from its hand, as expected.
I'll post my horde deck here when I get home tonight - I'd love some suggestions.
Lol found a possible bannable card. I don't really want to ban cards, but this one is busted - collective voyage
Collective Voyage isn't so bad as long as there's a bit of a rules adjustment. The point of this card is that your opponents benefit from the effects as well. Although the horde isn't allowed to contribute mana to the card, my playgroup lets it draw X cards to help even it out.
Player my horde deck over the weekend with 3 of my good friends. We had 2 once-standard decks (alara-zendikar) and 2 EDH decks.
The horde had quite a rough time. We got planeswalkers out (because the mono-green standard deck had 8 planeswalkers in it) and grouped up to defend them constantly, and then just crapped on the zombies. The planeswalkers were nissa revane and garruk wildspearker, and both could dump out creatures that could beat zombies.
The problem was simply that 2-4 zombies a turn was FAR from enough creatures to get around our blockers, and we got more and more each turn. Once nissa's -7 went off, we just alpha swung for 100+ damage.
After 3 roflstompy games against the horde, we decided to up the difficulty. We were playing with only 2 turns of setup, but we switched it back to 3 for this. We had the horde basically reveal twice (reveal until 2 non-zombies) each turn starting from their first turn.
The games were definitely much more interesting, but were ultimately too hard. We played twice and then went to play some fighting games.
I want to ask for help on deciding on/creating rules to make horde more difficult for extra players. Here's some example ideas that I have/have gotten from other people:
Espuma's Rules - You add a swamp to the deck for each player above the first (shuffling them in). You treat them sort of like tokens, but when they get milled, you still put them into play. They just sit there and are untargettable/destroyable. They basically aren't even lands/permanents - more like emblems. Each one means that when they reveal cards, they do it an extra time. Basically, at some random point in the game, the horde will start getting extra reveals and become much harder. (Note: If you'd like to see Espuma's horde, he has posted on the front page of this thread a whole bunch and even on this page. He's replied a lot to my thread and I've viewed his thread quite a bit.)
Turn Counter - Some sort of turn counter would be interesting. Basically, at some threshold, it would increase the zombie reveals by one. For example, every 10 turns, the horde starts taking an additional turn. It counts EACH player turn, so with 4 players, it would go up 4 at a time (5 if you want to include zombies). This could be nice since it would be more consistent than the swamps, and it would mean we wouldn't have to add/remove/shuffle the swamps. The main thing would be keeping track of this number (not hard, but potentially annoying, and easy to forget).
Zombie Apocalypse - Some sort of turn threshold like the second idea, but basically, it would always be the single reveal (as normal), and then once the threshold is met, the zombies start revealing X times where X is the number of players. With my deck, it is typically split into 2 piles, so I could maybe make it once the first pile is gone, then the zombies start taking extra turns, but that's probably too slow, and doesn't scale amazingly with the number of players. Perhaps just a similar turn counter but with a higher threshold like 20-30.
What are your thoughts? Which one would be best? Any additional ideas would be great!
Also, for funsies, I was playing horde with my friend (just the 2 of us) and we decided to throw in our planechase cards. It was amazingly silly lol.
I like the Turn Counter idea the best. I think the one where the Swamps act as emblems is ideal but because players mill the horde deck when they damage it, the Swamps could get lost in the mix, so to speak. I'll be trying this Turn Counter business this weekend.
I didn't get too much of a chance to test out my explore deck last weekend Only 2 games with 2 people each. We didn't get to do that much exploring, since sending weak creatures can get them killed (and give away free zombies) and sending strong creatures leaves us vulnerable to bigger waves. Overall, I think it is still best to send your weak dudes and just cross your fingers. We decided that there doesn't need to be a mana cost to go exploring because it is already quite the cost to tap a creature at sorcery speed. I think I may need to put more cool cards in the explore deck too so that it is more appealing. Still really funny though when the poor kor skyfisher got killed by inferno trap We didn't even test out the increasing horde turn stuff though. Not enough games/time.
Good to hear from you again ollec Waiting for your list I always love to see new ideas.
EDIT
For the exploring mechanics, I am thinking of making a way for your explorer to view more cards. That way you don't waste a lot of time by "whiffing" and getting a trap or zombie (even when you can survive them). You lose a blocker anyway, and multiple card could make the risks a bit higher.
I am thinking something like "When a creature you control explores, you may pay XX. If you do, instead of revealing only 1 explore card, reveal X+1 cards.". It might need adjustments and possibly a mana cost that gets higher with each further card (to prevent abuse). The rules for when multiple cards are flipped would be simple - you get everything that is not harmful. All auras and non-permanents are cast targetting the exploring creature, and the exploring creature then fights all zombies revealed.
Did some more play testing with some card in the explore deck swapped out (just me vs the horde with 4 turn setup). The horde got some pretty bad turns so I got to explore a lot. I was also trying it where I could explore as much as I want (ie tap as many creatures as I want). I think this was too much. I tapped like 4 tokens and got so much free stuff. Playing with rules for extra turns is kind of weak when I am playing by myself unfortunately.
However, I came up with an idea To make exploring more interesting, I am going to try making it so that exploring reveals X cards where X is the number of emblems the horde has (number of times they wave per turn). They will start with 1, so you will reveal 1 when a creature explores (I think I need to limit this to only 1 explore per turn for the whole team or something - maybe 2), but after the horde starts getting harder, you can get more loot at once. However, with more revealed cards, there is a larger chance that the creature runs into trouble.
I think it makes sense thematically and works well mechanically since you will find more zombies, bad things and stray survivors when the horde is starting to get out of control, and it means that your stronger creatures later in the game will be much better for exploring since they can survive it. You also don't have the problem where you send your strong guy off exploring and get a spellbook which feels like a huge waste.
The exploring mechanics are definitely quite fun though. It always feels so good flipping over that card (in a tense sort of way since you don't know what's coming). It was awesome. I had norin the wary dodge a 9/9 sutured ghoul (who only eats everything in the explore graveyard).
WOOH! Got to play with some new rules with some friends (3 players vs the horde).
We only tried one rule set and didn't modify it, but I am certain it was too diffictult (although it was really awesome).
We did:
Every 10 player turns, the horde gets an emblem that makes them wave an additional time (stacking indefinitely).
Set up turns are not counted.
We played 4 games and only won the last one (we basically played until we won) and the horde didn't get much that game and since the other 2 decks in play were once-standard decks, we sideboarded them to be as strong as possible for the last 2 games.
I have to say - it was extremely epic. We were pumping out super powerful boards, but the horde was still overwhelming us. The games were all very close and it was a lot more intense. My friend kept getting out a huge army of guys with an eldrazi monument to back it up, but the horde kept getting through with creeping corrosion or noxious ghoul.
It was really fun, but I think it is too hard. The most waves we got to per turn was 4, and we died immediately on that turn (double smallpox, zombie apocalypse, and creeping corrosion with around 20 zombie tokens and another 15 zombies in the graveyard which got reanimated).
I think that either my horde deck needs to be toned down (extra turns from temporal extortion are too brutal with something like 3 waves) or the rules need to change.
Some quick ideas we threw around after the first game
- increase the horde threshold (probably to 15 instead of 10).
- increase the horde threshold and change the incrementing rules - probably something like threshold = 20 and increment = 2+player count - so that it doesn't scale so much with extra players.
- big overhaul and simply do something else
I want to try the first one for sure because it is simple and will get the change we want (make it a little less brutal).
WOOH! Got to play with some new rules with some friends (3 players vs the horde).
We only tried one rule set and didn't modify it, but I am certain it was too diffictult (although it was really awesome).
We did:
Every 10 player turns, the horde gets an emblem that makes them wave an additional time (stacking indefinitely).
Set up turns are not counted.
We played 4 games and only won the last one (we basically played until we won) and the horde didn't get much that game and since the other 2 decks in play were once-standard decks, we sideboarded them to be as strong as possible for the last 2 games.
I have to say - it was extremely epic. We were pumping out super powerful boards, but the horde was still overwhelming us. The games were all very close and it was a lot more intense. My friend kept getting out a huge army of guys with an eldrazi monument to back it up, but the horde kept getting through with creeping corrosion or noxious ghoul.
It was really fun, but I think it is too hard. The most waves we got to per turn was 4, and we died immediately on that turn (double smallpox, zombie apocalypse, and creeping corrosion with around 20 zombie tokens and another 15 zombies in the graveyard which got reanimated).
I think that either my horde deck needs to be toned down (extra turns from temporal extortion are too brutal with something like 3 waves) or the rules need to change.
Some quick ideas we threw around after the first game
- increase the horde threshold (probably to 15 instead of 10).
- increase the horde threshold and change the incrementing rules - probably something like threshold = 20 and increment = 2+player count - so that it doesn't scale so much with extra players.
- big overhaul and simply do something else
I want to try the first one for sure because it is simple and will get the change we want (make it a little less brutal).
honestly though dude, i think co-op games have to be ridiculously tough otherwise it wouldn't be a fun challenge anymore. Is temporal extortion brilliant in the horde? I have in things likebrowbeat and choice of damnations (and cast as if it has been radiated as well) and that is usually a HUGE headache whenever its cast.
Yes, temporal extortion is brutal - ESPECIALLY with the rules we were using (in my previous post).
And yes, I agree with you that the horde needs to be difficult to beat or it will not be fun. I think it was still a little bit much though. I want to try it with more decks before I create more final rules for it.
I think a big problem though is that I designed my deck without the additional reveal rules in mind, so some cards are just too brutal. I spent ~half the games stuck at 3 lands and all my mana rocks were destroyed (because ruination, creeping corrosion, and destructive flow). We also spent most of the games with no hand. I could easily adjust my deck and just keep the current rules - I saw somewhere else that someone was using plague boiler. It's brilliant! I want to add like 4 lol. They will reset the players when they are getting too strong, but it will be slow and removable.
I picked up a bunch of Grave Defilers and I think they'll be pretty good in my deck. The potential to drop him with a bunch of tokens and then draw four more zombies will be nice.
Grave defiler could be quite good. I think that I want to change my deck to be a little less brutal so that having the extra emeblems does not make them too strong.
Honestly, I think something as simple as sign in blood will be super awesome for the horde. Draw 2, mill 2. It will probably miss anything really dangerous, but it will at least get 2 more zombie tokens if nothing else, and when the horde reveals 3 times and gets a couple sign in bloods, it'll be less brutal than getting hit by ruination and then having decree of pain destroy everything and draw 50+ cards.
My friend pointed out to me that it is fun to fight a growing army of zombies and to feel overshwhelmed when you lose rather than blown out. He likes cards like boneknitter which keeps the horde growing and I agree with him that it is more fun that way, and with multiple reveals, it is much easier for the horde to not suck, but still overwhelm us.
I'll probably be taking out a couple crazy blow out cards and put in more simple cards that help the horde grow. I think gravecrawler will be an amazing addition as well as bloodbond march which I am still looking for.
you know, i had completely missed bloodbond march. I had (because i was being silly) put it in with 40 shadowborn apostles, and a few demons in my Sek'Kuar, hoping to combo it with bloodbond march, and had COMPLETELY forgotten that it'd work miracles with the zombie horde! thats a good call!
i can't remember where i read this actually, but someone came up with an idea of putting swamps in the horde deck as indicators of stepping up the pressure. And as they are revealed and/or milled, they automatically add 1 more wave to the horde's attacks. that way, if the survivors are in a defensive enough position and are able to mill the horde deck brings on the more advanced waves earlier. i cant remember the specifics of how many swamps goes in though.
I have really enjoyed reading this. I have found that horde mode is an excellent way to teach new players how to play magic, because you can look at your "student's" hand and explain how to make the best plays and still let everyone have the thrill of a legitimate win. I currently have 2 new people to teach so I am putting a bunch of effort into my deck.
I am really into the "Swamps as extra flip emblems" on the zombie team. I am for sure going to add that in. I also love the burning bodies concept. I have another suggestion. Instead of having an explore deck, simply add all of the prizes into the zombie deck.
Here is what I propose.
Add 10 "rewards" per 100 cards. So the 200 card deck ands up being 220.
If a player mills a reward through damage they gain that reward. Players can discuss who gets which reward.
If the zombies flip a reward card, the reward card is exiled and the zombies keep flipping as if nothing happened.
This provides the humans incentive to attack the zombies but spares you the added complexity of making a separate explore deck. If you feel it will be confusing what is a zombie spell or a reward spell just slip a symbol or something into the card sleeve so you know easily.
As a new player to the Horde variant, I've been wondering after reading everyone's stories and play tests what happens to the zombie tokens. Do thy go to the yard or do they disappear like regular constructed Magic? If they go to the yard, the card Creepin Reanissance seems so powerful. But that's been something I was wondering.
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Been reading up on this some and getting lots of interesting ideas and little tweaks to make. Thought about adding in Rise of the Dark Realms as another possible reanimation effect.
I'm just not really sure if I want to keep it within a 100 card or shoot for upping it up to 200/220 with the Swamp/Emblem/Reward option.
Through some play testing (though no with EDH decks) just regular decks I've noticed that the (3) survivors were able to mill a good chunk from the Hordes deck, but a flashback Army of the Damned seemed to just be overwhelming.
I've tried to separate the attacking zombies so that there is an equal amount going towards each player. Didn't like the "roll a die to determine which player got attacked, as it seemed the same number kept coming up.
The idea of "burn the bodies" does sound like an interesting idea as well.
I think if I were to up the amount of cards, I might up most cards to 3 copies, maybe add in a few additional things but then up the tokens for the most part.
i'm just getting to this. i'm making my first deck, taking a lot of cues from people who have done decks already. i really like using obscure cards that no one has.
and the explorer deck. that just sounds so much fun!
Hey SAUS, can you update your OP to reflect your extra turn rules and Explore deck? kthxbai
Haha ya, I've been really lazy about it. Sorry. I should also update the list because a bunch of the cards have changed too. I'll do it tomorrow morning most likely.
EDIT:
Updated the OP to have my extra revealing rules in there - I realised it wouldn't take long if that's all I add for now. It is just below the burn the bodies section. I'll probably do a big makeover when I clean it up tomorrow. For reminder for myself:
- Update deck list to match current actual deck list.
- Update interesting cards lists and stuff.
- Add explore deck section
On a side note, I played with my friend (he has an omnath deck), and he basically beat the horde by himself. It was kind of depressing. He would always tutor for rofellos, and then do 150+ damage by turn 6 (horde doesn't even get to get stronger by this point). It was ridiculous. I don't really know what to do to deal with that. Maybe some more creature-only disruption (don't want to hit lands and stuff too much too early). Maybe just a bit more plague wind. I really need to get more copies of that card...
I like the idea of an emblem. Having a threshold makes the most sense, but when it's random it probably makes for more random games.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Lol if only I bought some of the archenemy boxes. I think they came out when I was not really playing much magic.
I think the random swamps will not be so bad. It is always possible for ridiculously early or late swamps, but I think it will be alright most of the time.
I think I will probably go with one of the threshold ideas, but I'm not sure which one is better. For the first threshold idea, it would be funny if the players are not attacking enough and the horde gets way out of hand. I'll probably try that first, but I think the other idea is easier to do since it will just be for the first turns where you count it. I'll probably only count the player turns as well, and most likely won't count the setup turns.
Any ideas for threshold numbers?
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
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BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
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The only thing I dislike about doing it based on deck size is that it will promote not attacking and instead building a big board state. Attacking the deck brings it closer to more difficulty that way, so players will only attack for the final swing. In the games I've played, it has typically been 80-130 damage (huge, unhindered board presence). I like the 'time' feel that turns will give. That way, the players are pressured into more attacking for a quicker victory
A combination of both could certainly work though. Maybe each seciton of the deck can increase the turn counter by the number of players or something.
I'll probably try a ton of stuff out and report back the results.
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
That could work too. How big would the wave be? Maybe something like 1 extra wave per player, so it will be reveal until 5 non-tokens are revealed and then cast all of them for 4 players, but only do it 3 times for 2 players.
That could be interesting. The horde will sort of reset the game every few turns and force the players to do something about it, but it wouldn't just completely crush the players after a crazy turn.
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I've decided to try out an explore deck The players can decide if they want to use it before each game. It will be like adding planechase to a regular game, but probably a lot less significant.
Here are the rules I came up with:
The explore deck is set off to the side. Once per turn (not sure if I need to limit it), each player may tap a creature and pay 2 (haven't decided on a mana cost or if any at all) to send that creature off to explore. This can only be done as a sorcery.
When a creature explores, reveal the top card of the explore deck. If it is an:
Artifact - Put it into play under your control.
Land - Put it into play under your control.
Creature - Put it into play under your control unless it is a zombie. If it is a zombie, the exploring creature fights it. If the zombie survives, put it into play under the horde's control. Fighting here will be done as a full combat step so that first strike and "combat damage" effects work.
Other - If it is an instant, sorcery, or aura, it is cast targetting your exploring creature (the aura will be controlled by the player who controls the exploring creature - even if it is a negative effect). If the creature has shroud or hexproof (or is an illegal target for any other reason), the spell does not cast and exploring does nothing. If the spell targets a player, the controller of the exploring creature is the target. If the spell has no target, treat it as though the controller of the exploring creature cast it.
If a card obtained by exploring would leave play, it is put into the explore discard pile instead.
It's a little bit wordy, but it will be easy to explain. I threw together a 75 card explore deck for fun, but I'll probably test it out before I post it (there will most likely be a ton of changes too - I threw it together in ~1 hour).
I thought it would be funny to make the creatures go off exploring (and really easy to make rules for) as opposed to having players themselves explore. It's really funny because your poor creature might get mauled to death by a zombie brute or something lol. I even stuck in a couple hideous ends for flavour It'll also bring great use to shroud and hexproof which normally do nothing against my horde. Having some zombies to make the creatures fight is important so that players don't just send their weak chumps off to explore.
Some example explorations:
Scavenged Weaponry - Some improvised weapons. May as well use them. The exploring creature gets enchanted by scavenged weaponry and the controller of the exploring creature draws a card.
Hideous End - Your creature was unfortunate and ran into a trap! The exploring creature is targetted by hideous end. If that creature isn't black (or protection from black or shroud/hexproof), it will get destroyed and the controller of that creature will lose 2 life. Otherise, the spell will just be put into the explore discard pile.
Deft Duelist - You found a buddy! Put it into play under the exploring creature's controller's control.
Zombie Brute - Not so friendly. Make it "fight" your exploring creature. Regardless of if your creature dies or not, if the zombie survives the combat, put it into play under the horde's control.
Forgotten Cave - Your creature discovered a forgotten cave. Put it into play under your control.
Reviving Dose - A nice health potion! It restores the body AND mind. The controller of the exploring creature gains 3 life and draws a card.
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
Hmm... I wonder if I have any extra Time Warps floating around.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
The occasional extra flips are probably a good idea. It will give the horde a turn every once in a while to turn the game around a bit.
I will probably get a chance to test out the explore deck on saturday. I want to stick in some really cool things - probably the whole kaldra set (which will be almost impossible to assemble lol - but that time when it happens...). Maybe a legendary creature or 2, as well as possibly a really scary zombie. The rules are already in place though and the deck I threw together has a nice balance I think. I'll definitely post the results.
EDIT
I forgot to mention that there are also 'quests' in my explore deck. They are the enchantments from zendikar that give you stuff if they have enough quest counters on them. They just enter the battlefield under your control if your creature finds it. I think they'll be fun.
Couple additional rules that I will probably add to my explore deck :
- When a permanent enters the battlefield under your control from the explore deck, you may have target player gain control of it (donate it upon getting it so you can sort of share it).
- When a card from the explore deck tells you to "search your library", you search the explore library instead.
The first rule is so you can share items that won't be very good for you, and the second rule is for things like expedition map and quest for the holy relic - they make more sense if they arenot things in your own deck.
EDIT2
OMFG I have to put in feeding frenzy! The poor explorer accidently walks into all the zombies lmao
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
I wanted to share with you guys a little gem I found, Shepherd of Rot is a pretty strong card I feel. I haven't tried it out yet but when I'll do I'll update you guys. Just hadn't seen it mentioned yet.
I'm doing a major overhaul to my deck soon while adding some new features such as Gravecrawler and maybe Sightless Ghoul treated as tokens to give a bit more variety to the fighting. The flavor is wonderful too.
The Mimeoplasm, Pest Control
Marath, Mononoke's Call
Kruphix, Walking the Horizon
Ephara, Miracles in a Flash
Balthor, A Short Story About Zombies
Seizan, Truth or Draw
Talrand, Journey to the Sky
Feldon, Artificial Love
----Modern----
BW Tokens
Melira Pod (Retired)
----Horde----
Zombies!
Links coming soon!
I never tried shepherd of rot. I think I was worried about him doing too much damage He could probably get in though.
Gravecrawler is awesome. I really want one for my deck. He doesn't do a lot of damage, but he will just always come back.
@Donfuan
Oh man nice ideas.
My favourite addition that I found this morning is norin the wary! It's a flavour overload! He is basically useless for fighting (unless your deck is built to use him), but he can go off exploring for you! Anything he finds while exploring will be cast, and so he will ALWAYS dodge absolutely everything (so flavourful!). He basically explores for free, but will leave all zombies alone (ie the horde gets them), so it's not overpowered.
I'll probably play with the explore deck a little bit today as well as some rules for increasing the horde waves (probably try a few different ones). I'll report how it goes
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
Sorry for leaving you hanging SAUS...real life came in and took over everything for a while.
I've found, as others have said, that the games tend to be incredibly lopsided due to bad draws for the horde. I've been playing around with the rules and believe that what works best for our playgroup is if the horde draws cards equal to the number of players each turn before its usual Reveal step. After all the cards are revealed, the horde plays the cards from its hand, as expected.
I'll post my horde deck here when I get home tonight - I'd love some suggestions.
Collective Voyage isn't so bad as long as there's a bit of a rules adjustment. The point of this card is that your opponents benefit from the effects as well. Although the horde isn't allowed to contribute mana to the card, my playgroup lets it draw X cards to help even it out.
I like the Turn Counter idea the best. I think the one where the Swamps act as emblems is ideal but because players mill the horde deck when they damage it, the Swamps could get lost in the mix, so to speak. I'll be trying this Turn Counter business this weekend.
Good to hear from you again ollec Waiting for your list I always love to see new ideas.
EDIT
For the exploring mechanics, I am thinking of making a way for your explorer to view more cards. That way you don't waste a lot of time by "whiffing" and getting a trap or zombie (even when you can survive them). You lose a blocker anyway, and multiple card could make the risks a bit higher.
I am thinking something like "When a creature you control explores, you may pay XX. If you do, instead of revealing only 1 explore card, reveal X+1 cards.". It might need adjustments and possibly a mana cost that gets higher with each further card (to prevent abuse). The rules for when multiple cards are flipped would be simple - you get everything that is not harmful. All auras and non-permanents are cast targetting the exploring creature, and the exploring creature then fights all zombies revealed.
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
However, I came up with an idea To make exploring more interesting, I am going to try making it so that exploring reveals X cards where X is the number of emblems the horde has (number of times they wave per turn). They will start with 1, so you will reveal 1 when a creature explores (I think I need to limit this to only 1 explore per turn for the whole team or something - maybe 2), but after the horde starts getting harder, you can get more loot at once. However, with more revealed cards, there is a larger chance that the creature runs into trouble.
I think it makes sense thematically and works well mechanically since you will find more zombies, bad things and stray survivors when the horde is starting to get out of control, and it means that your stronger creatures later in the game will be much better for exploring since they can survive it. You also don't have the problem where you send your strong guy off exploring and get a spellbook which feels like a huge waste.
The exploring mechanics are definitely quite fun though. It always feels so good flipping over that card (in a tense sort of way since you don't know what's coming). It was awesome. I had norin the wary dodge a 9/9 sutured ghoul (who only eats everything in the explore graveyard).
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
We only tried one rule set and didn't modify it, but I am certain it was too diffictult (although it was really awesome).
We did:
Every 10 player turns, the horde gets an emblem that makes them wave an additional time (stacking indefinitely).
Set up turns are not counted.
We played 4 games and only won the last one (we basically played until we won) and the horde didn't get much that game and since the other 2 decks in play were once-standard decks, we sideboarded them to be as strong as possible for the last 2 games.
I have to say - it was extremely epic. We were pumping out super powerful boards, but the horde was still overwhelming us. The games were all very close and it was a lot more intense. My friend kept getting out a huge army of guys with an eldrazi monument to back it up, but the horde kept getting through with creeping corrosion or noxious ghoul.
It was really fun, but I think it is too hard. The most waves we got to per turn was 4, and we died immediately on that turn (double smallpox, zombie apocalypse, and creeping corrosion with around 20 zombie tokens and another 15 zombies in the graveyard which got reanimated).
I think that either my horde deck needs to be toned down (extra turns from temporal extortion are too brutal with something like 3 waves) or the rules need to change.
Some quick ideas we threw around after the first game
- increase the horde threshold (probably to 15 instead of 10).
- increase the horde threshold and change the incrementing rules - probably something like threshold = 20 and increment = 2+player count - so that it doesn't scale so much with extra players.
- big overhaul and simply do something else
I want to try the first one for sure because it is simple and will get the change we want (make it a little less brutal).
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
honestly though dude, i think co-op games have to be ridiculously tough otherwise it wouldn't be a fun challenge anymore. Is temporal extortion brilliant in the horde? I have in things likebrowbeat and choice of damnations (and cast as if it has been radiated as well) and that is usually a HUGE headache whenever its cast.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
And yes, I agree with you that the horde needs to be difficult to beat or it will not be fun. I think it was still a little bit much though. I want to try it with more decks before I create more final rules for it.
I think a big problem though is that I designed my deck without the additional reveal rules in mind, so some cards are just too brutal. I spent ~half the games stuck at 3 lands and all my mana rocks were destroyed (because ruination, creeping corrosion, and destructive flow). We also spent most of the games with no hand. I could easily adjust my deck and just keep the current rules - I saw somewhere else that someone was using plague boiler. It's brilliant! I want to add like 4 lol. They will reset the players when they are getting too strong, but it will be slow and removable.
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Honestly, I think something as simple as sign in blood will be super awesome for the horde. Draw 2, mill 2. It will probably miss anything really dangerous, but it will at least get 2 more zombie tokens if nothing else, and when the horde reveals 3 times and gets a couple sign in bloods, it'll be less brutal than getting hit by ruination and then having decree of pain destroy everything and draw 50+ cards.
My friend pointed out to me that it is fun to fight a growing army of zombies and to feel overshwhelmed when you lose rather than blown out. He likes cards like boneknitter which keeps the horde growing and I agree with him that it is more fun that way, and with multiple reveals, it is much easier for the horde to not suck, but still overwhelm us.
I'll probably be taking out a couple crazy blow out cards and put in more simple cards that help the horde grow. I think gravecrawler will be an amazing addition as well as bloodbond march which I am still looking for.
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
i can't remember where i read this actually, but someone came up with an idea of putting swamps in the horde deck as indicators of stepping up the pressure. And as they are revealed and/or milled, they automatically add 1 more wave to the horde's attacks. that way, if the survivors are in a defensive enough position and are able to mill the horde deck brings on the more advanced waves earlier. i cant remember the specifics of how many swamps goes in though.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I am really into the "Swamps as extra flip emblems" on the zombie team. I am for sure going to add that in. I also love the burning bodies concept. I have another suggestion. Instead of having an explore deck, simply add all of the prizes into the zombie deck.
Here is what I propose.
Add 10 "rewards" per 100 cards. So the 200 card deck ands up being 220.
If a player mills a reward through damage they gain that reward. Players can discuss who gets which reward.
If the zombies flip a reward card, the reward card is exiled and the zombies keep flipping as if nothing happened.
This provides the humans incentive to attack the zombies but spares you the added complexity of making a separate explore deck. If you feel it will be confusing what is a zombie spell or a reward spell just slip a symbol or something into the card sleeve so you know easily.
Standard
GBWJunk ReanimatorWBG
EDH
BShirei, Shizo's CaretakerB
RGBorborygmos EnragedGR
I'm just not really sure if I want to keep it within a 100 card or shoot for upping it up to 200/220 with the Swamp/Emblem/Reward option.
This is a taste of what I have now.
3 Cemetery Reaper
2 Death Baron
3 Diregraf Captain
2 Unbreathing Horde
3 Vengeful Dead
2 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
3 Infectious Horror
3 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Grave Titan
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Lightning Reaver
3 Lord of the Undead
2 Thraximundar
2 Noxious Ghoul
3 Escaped Null
3 Endless Ranks of the Dead
3 Army of the Damned
3 Call to the Grave
2 Plague Wind
2 Grave Pact
2 Zombie Apocalypse
2 Delirium Skeins
2 Barter in Blood
2 Rise of the Dark Realms
35 2/2 Zombie
5 5/5 Zombie Giant
Through some play testing (though no with EDH decks) just regular decks I've noticed that the (3) survivors were able to mill a good chunk from the Hordes deck, but a flashback Army of the Damned seemed to just be overwhelming.
I've tried to separate the attacking zombies so that there is an equal amount going towards each player. Didn't like the "roll a die to determine which player got attacked, as it seemed the same number kept coming up.
The idea of "burn the bodies" does sound like an interesting idea as well.
I think if I were to up the amount of cards, I might up most cards to 3 copies, maybe add in a few additional things but then up the tokens for the most part.
and the explorer deck. that just sounds so much fun!
Haha ya, I've been really lazy about it. Sorry. I should also update the list because a bunch of the cards have changed too. I'll do it tomorrow morning most likely.
EDIT:
Updated the OP to have my extra revealing rules in there - I realised it wouldn't take long if that's all I add for now. It is just below the burn the bodies section. I'll probably do a big makeover when I clean it up tomorrow. For reminder for myself:
- Update deck list to match current actual deck list.
- Update interesting cards lists and stuff.
- Add explore deck section
On a side note, I played with my friend (he has an omnath deck), and he basically beat the horde by himself. It was kind of depressing. He would always tutor for rofellos, and then do 150+ damage by turn 6 (horde doesn't even get to get stronger by this point). It was ridiculous. I don't really know what to do to deal with that. Maybe some more creature-only disruption (don't want to hit lands and stuff too much too early). Maybe just a bit more plague wind. I really need to get more copies of that card...
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW