Oh snap, people are commenting on this thing! Sorry to leave you hanging; I guess that's what I get for not checking the deck subforums more often.
Quote from cag08055 »
is there a reason to play Sanctum Gargoyle over Leonin Squire?
EDIT: Call to Heel has been pretty sick too.
EDIT 2: Dismantling Blow?
EDIT 3: Skulltap?
08-07-2011 10:54 PM
Moriok Replica is a big deal, like Zombie Shakespeare pointed out. Gargoyle also chump blocks fliers, which has been incredibly useful for me -- I do a lot of chump blocking in between board resets.
I have actually considered the other cards you mentioned at one point or another. Dismantling Blow was in one build, but I decided I didn't really need another disenchant effect. Call to Heel and Skulltap are probably fine, but they are a little too situational for my tastes.
Quote from Dm225 »
It could just be me being dense but what's the point of twisted abomination?
Overheat pretty much covered this. As a colorless mana fixer that is easily reused, Twisted Abomination is solid, and it can do a fine job in the red zone if need be. I think that perhaps this slot is supposed to be Preordain, though... I don't remember.
Quote from Overheat »
I am going to enter this deck into a four week league, so I can get some serious results and testing done with it.
First, having played in this league before, 75% of the decks have blue, so I think Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast are easy inclusions.
Second, they ban infinite combos and LD that is solely to get people off mana. This covers a huge weakness that the deck has, namely that I have to keep red available in order to burn out everyone else, and need WUBRG throughout the game in order to cast Child.
Third, I think this deck needs more draw power. Stuff like Foresee and Sign in Blood let us get our recursion pieces more easily than we otherwise could.
Fourth, the fact that Worthy Cause and Fallen Ideal are both uncommons is ridiculous.
Sweet! Thanks a ton for the tournament report; I love reading this sort of thing. Congratulations on the solid finish. Keep us posted on this!
1. I may have to jump on the Pyroblast bandwagon. My old (new old, not old old) playgroup had very little serious blue, but blue is usually prevalent in random pickup games. I hope it's as bonkers as everyone is making it out to be.
2. Sounds difficult to enforce, but whatever! Good for us!
3. That's perfectly acceptable. Between those, Rush of Knowledge, and the preexisting draw spells, you should be set.
4. Bah, we don't need those shenanigans. In fact, I don't think I'd play them even if they were common! Dedicated sac outlets are just too narrow, and we need to make the most of our 99!
Still not a fan of Dizzy Spell. If you use it primarily as a way to tutor Fireball, why not just play Rolling Thunder instead and tutor for it with Muddle the Mixture, Shred Memory, or Dimir Infiltrator? Double red is a pain, I guess, but by the time I want to start burning opponents out of the game, I have approximately >9000 mana available, anyway.
Quote from atratus »
Some other mana generators/lands to consider for this uber deck:
Mana Cylix
Command Tower
Opinions? Speed up that mana deployment?
Edit:
Did you ever consider Hull Breach as a control?
Or Hearth Charm for the multiple utility?
Command Tower is superb and should already be in the list in the OP. Mana Cylix is card disadvantage for minimal gain; I would turn to Wanderer's Twig or something before this. Hull Breach is great, and would be a fine replacement/supplement to the disenchants already in the deck! And Hearth Charm just doesn't do enough to warrant an inclusion, typically.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Quote from ededd »
Having just invested in (read: acquired for pennies) this awesome-looking deck, there's only one thing I have to ask: any good replacement for Rhystic Study? Hopefully I'll be able to trade for it eventually but, sadly, it seems to be out of stock everywhere I looked
Honestly, any old draw spell will get the job done. Foresee, Compulsive Research, whatever. The Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora slots are very flexible, and the only reason I continue to strictly adhere to these two are because a friend has given them custom art, so they have some sentimental value.
Speaking of which, sentimental value is one of the reasons I continue to play a Trinket Mage package. Now that I have cut Dispeller's Capsule, the package is not actively bad, so I am content with the added utility. Apparently a build without Trinket Mage works very well, though.
Bonus! SCG Open: Atlanta Report
I happened to be in Atlanta buying a new drum set today, and it just so happened that SCG was in town! Awesome. I dropped by to see some judge friends, and I managed to squeak in one Commander side event before I had to leave. I played this deck, of course. Here is a very brief rundown:
The hate starts coming my way, but I stave off most of it with chump blockers and Capsize. Everyone else is starting to run low on gas, and Nin does some crazy mana shenanigans to get a huge Insurrection. After going into the tank, I take a gamble and let it resolve -- if the Nin player swings at me, I'm toast. If he doesn't, then he's out of gas and someone else is dead. Good news: the Elesh Norn bites the bullet instead!
I start to lock up the game with Child of Alara and Oblivion Ring + Capsize, and the Mikaeus player scoops in aggravation. Nin tries to fight it out, but he is topdecking and I have a fist full of gas and two counterspells.
The league is tomorrow, so I will post results then.
About Dizzy Spell, I mainly use it to get Fireball... and by Fireball I mean Pyroblast. Seriously, against blue decks there is nothing that you want more than that. It counters counters for one mana and kills Sphinx dead. Also, if the table has no Blue, then not only can you kill Child with it but victory should be easy.
I played a few games this week, and Vedalken Aethermage is the real deal. That can get three of our spell recursion cards, and Qasali Pridemage, or Sea Gate Oracle, if you still run that. Also, bounces a sliver if you need it against slivers or Chameleon Colossus.
Some interesting stuff about what makes this deck tick. The average CMC for spells is a lean and mean 2.65. The highest CMC is 7 because of Tusker, but since he really is there to cycle, the highest real cost is 5. We can do our thing much earlier than anyone else. I have managed to cram 22 MONO-blue spells into a 5 color deck, Blue draw/filter and Transmute are what holds this deck together. Without those, it does nothing.
Also, med price on TCGPlayer is $31.03, so Child laughes at the measly $50 deck challenge. I also realized this week that this is close in power to my Thrax deck, which means Thrax needs to go on a CMC diet. "Bloat Creep" is an accurate term to describe what happens to many EDH decks over time. I just entered it and found Thrax average CMC is 3.98. Does not sound like much, but each spell is an average 1.33 more expensive, so it cannot cast two spells a turn until almost three turns later, and Child has much more ramp, being green and all.
tl;dr-keep the deck lean, it is what makes it tick the way it does.
Edit: Whoo that was epic. First, the Mimeoplasm player was not there, so I took out Nihil Spellbomb for Sea Gate Oracle.
Game 1: It was me vs Damia, Nin, and Rhys the Redeemed.
Rhys did nothing of interest during the entire games since he was not Blue, and never played anything threatening, since he was stuck on mana.
After about ten turns of setting up, the board was stalled because of Meishin, the Mind Cage and Child. I had a soft lock because of Scrivener+ Death Denied. I said that I could Mind Extraction people and win, but that that would be mean.
After another 15 turns or nothing relevant, there was 45 mins left in the round, so I said that I was going to try to win. I Mind Extracted the two Blue players, revealed 3 coutnerspells+Disturbed Burial+Death Denied to get the concession from the table.
The second game was much more interesting. I was against the same Damia, Hazezon Tamar, and Rafiq.
Rafiq and Hazezon got out Primeval Titan early and got tons of lands. Rafiq resolved Consecrated Sphinx, and drew tons of cards, but on his end step I killed his Reliquary Tower. Hazezon played Kozilek with Mosswart Bridge, and I bought his favor by bouncing it with Capsize to play again for more cards.
He killed Rafiq and Damia quickly with his tokens, then he is ready to kill me. I need to get Child from the graveyard to not die, and need to draw a way to do it. I had Chronarch in hand, but no spell ways to recur in my graveyard. I draw Brainspoil, and go into the tank. I transmute for Rush of Knowledge, cast it off Darksteel Ingot, and draw land, land, Merchant Scroll. I scroll for Mystical Teachings, cast that for Grim Harvest, then get back Child. His sand warriors come in during his turn. He passes, so on my turn I flashback Mystical Teachings to get Death Denied, and keep wiping the board until his general costs 23 mana to play, and then he concedes, since he has no hand from a Mind Extraction.
For almost not playing Sea Gate Oracle, he was very good, and I do not think that I can cut him again. Having 4 guys to return instants or sorceries is better than two even though they can only return one type. Far Wanderings was its usual awesome self. Both games it was played on turn three, then gotten back with Anarchist/Chronarch for a mana boost in the mid game. I have to stop praising the card, but it is so good that I do not know if I can. Unmake was also there for Ulamog and Shield of Kaldra, I would not every consider playing this deck without a way to kill Indestructible guys.
Making a land drop every turn is also important, and both games I played a land every turn until it was 1v1 or I had gone infinite with recursion.
It was an awesome week, and I am glad that I was able to win with Child again. However, next week I am expecting more Tormod's Crypts and Relics and Nihil Spellbombs. The Hazezon guy said he considered adding some this week, but did not, so he may have quite a bit next time.
Congrats for the victories in Week 2! Sounds like everything went according to plan, mwahahaha.
On Sea Gate Oracle: Yeah, this guy is a champ. He doesn't provide anything unique, really, but he's just good solid value. He's here to stay.
On Unmake: Indestructible dudes can be a pain, sure, but I'm not sure this is necessary. You make it sound like Diabolic Edict is our only out, but countermagic and Capsize do the job just as well. I'm still playing Oblivion Ring in this slot I guess, which handles indestructibles and gets really cute with Capsize (yesterday, I used Oblivion Ring and Capsize to handle the Mikaeus player's Shield of Kaldra, which was what prompted the concession/ragequit).
On Far Wanderings: Oh yeah, freaking awesome. Easily one of the best cards in the deck. Here is my stab at our top 5 cards (not counting the general, of course):
1. Capsize -- It's not even close. This card is ridonculous.
2. Mystical Teachings -- Grabs Capsize and anything else, and is the backbone of the tutor chain.
3. Far Wanderings -- Just abuse this card until we win. That is all.
4. Disturbed Burial -- One of our best, most flexible late-game plans.
5. Mind Extraction -- The haymaker of choice for transitioning from defensive mode to dreamcrushing mode.
I do not know. Countermagic is nice, but sometimes you have to tap out to keep wrathing enough, and O ring is really terrible without Capsize. Unmake is for those situations. Also, Capsizing Ulamog, is not a plan for victory.
Top cards in the deck, IMHO:
1 Mystical Teachings:If I were asked what card to have in the opener, it is this card every time.
2 Mind Extraction: Stops Blue mages, and if you tutor for it EVERY SINGLE GAME, then it might be important to your strategy.
3 Death Denied: The disturbed burial for cheap instant speed and gases up our hand quickly at the end of our opponents turn. Does not have buyback, but you are getting Chronarch/Wall/Scrivener, right?
4 Izzet Chronarch/Mnemonic Wall/Scrivener/Anarchist: I thought of something today. When I am playing, I think of the game as having two states. Either we have access to our graveyard, or we do not. No degrees, no ifs, no buts, a binary statement of how we are doing in the game.
5 Far Wanderings: Same deal, it ramps, it ramps more, never countered even though it is a sweet 3 for 1.
6 Tutors:Transmute cards, Merchant Scroll, etc. Get the job done, provide consistency, let us play the good spells in our deck over and over and over.
7 Capsize: Against 2-3 Blue players (aka, every game at this league) this gets countered first time, every time if you use it on their stuff, and if you try anything powerful targeting your own stuff, then they counter/kill your guy. Still, its good after Mind Extraction has left you the only player with counters.
Let me say this. In this league, the lowest number of Blue players at a table I have played in is 3. Seeing just two Blue players at a table is extremely rare, it never really happens. Also, the Hazezon player is switching to Blue in three weeks when a new league starts. The decks are starting to add more countermagic, since noboby is punishing them for having so few win conditions. It is so bad that I would play Guttural Response if it were common. And that card is terrible. Actually, now that I think about it, Dispel should go into my deck. That is just sad, but I may have to do it.
Luckily, our deck is well suited against Blue. It gets CA in slow drips, so they cannot counter one spell and then we are out of gas. It is sickeningly redundant, and most of its tutors cannot be countered. I cannot blame everyone for playing Blue, since combo and mass LD are banned, how else are you supposed to win?
Have you made any significant changes lately that would warrant the updating of the original deck list? I have seen some recommendations in the thread that have churned up good dialog and positive responses (Command Tower, Unmake, Hull Breach). Any thoughts of adding them to the OP deck list? Last update looks like end of June...
Played this vs an upgraded Political Puppets, upgraded Devour for Power, and heavily upgraded counter punch. The CP deck was just nullified due to me wiping the board anytime he got a combo piece out. The ramping in the deck is awesome, all my friends couldn't believe it was a pauper deck.
Have you made any significant changes lately that would warrant the updating of the original deck list? I have seen some recommendations in the thread that have churned up good dialog and positive responses (Command Tower, Unmake, Hull Breach). Any thoughts of adding them to the OP deck list? Last update looks like end of June...
Your point is a good one. I am in the process of updating the OP into a full-fledged primer, with alternative card choices and everything.
Quote from LittlestMorte »
I don't think this was posted earlier, but quietspeculation.com did an article on this deck here.
Thank you for posting the link! I'd been meaning to reference it for a few days now. I added a reference in the OP.
Quote from Greeek »
Played this vs an upgraded Political Puppets, upgraded Devour for Power, and heavily upgraded counter punch. The CP deck was just nullified due to me wiping the board anytime he got a combo piece out. The ramping in the deck is awesome, all my friends couldn't believe it was a pauper deck.
Awww yeah, rocking the commons and crushing the competition. I like it!
Quote from Overheat »
I think a new spoiled card would be amazing for this deck.
Agreed; I'm pretty excited about this card. I hope the art is good.
I was thinking about seeing if this could become a primer, and i am glad that it has ascended to a higher plane of existence.
I guess this week I will have to take full notes about what happens.;)
I started to foil out this deck, and I got a foil Japanese signed Unmake, so sadly I can never cut it from my list ever. I finally got someone to trade a foil Preordain, but it is embarrassing what I had to give up for it.
After seeing the QS video, I must say that Skulltap looks interesting. Farhaven Elf sometimes dies to Child before it even chump blocks, so it maybe useful even if you do not need it to kill Child. That said, it does not help if you topdeck it late with no creatures, which seems to be a deal breaker.
Nothing new, except I have officially switched Sea Gate Oracle for Nihil Spellbomb. Sea gate is just too good, but Nihil will be there when I arrive and see that both Mimeoplasm and Chainer are there. Bojuka Bog and Shred Memory should be enough to stop most graveyard strategies.
Ok, this week was the last in this league, since next week is the prere.
I played my deck in the OP, except I used Sea Gate instead of Nihil Spellbomb, since there were no other serious graveyard decks.
We had 9 people so there were 3 tables of 3. I was up against the previous Wrexial deck and Sakashima.
We do stuff the first 8 or so turns, then I play Child and start to swing at Sakashima. I start to stock counterspells, since none have been played and it seems like there will be an epic counterwar eventually.
Wrexial had had Nihil Spellbomb out for a while, and I had tried to get him to break it, but he patiently waited until I went for Arcane Denial with Scrivener. I lost Wrecking Ball and Fireball in there, and when it turned out that he had Mystifying Maze in play, I thought I was not long for this world. I tried to get in as much damage as I could with dorks, but it was not going to happen. I thought I had him, then he cast Rite of Replication on Sphinx of Lost Truths to filter some cards and make blockers, so I tried to Diabolic Edict myself to kill Child in response. He had shuffled his graveyard with Ulamog, so he probably had some counters, but it was worth a try. He Muddled, I Muddled that, he Draining Whelks, I Faerie Trickery, and that gets Counterspell'd.
The only reason that I was not dead already was that Disturbed Burial gave me a counter a turn with Chronarch/Wall/Scrivener. I have about 15 cards left in my library, and realize that Capsize would get me out of this jam, so I evoke Mulldrifter, Grim Harvest, evoke, Impulse, take Capsize, pass the turn, and get the concession after I Capsize his Maze on my turn.
After this marathon, the second was very quick. Against the same Sakashima and Nin, we all do nothing for a while. Nin uses Pemmin's Aura on Fatesticher, that plus Khalani Gem + Blue Sun's Zenith is draw 47, play Stuffy Doll
Nin it to kill Sakashima, and Red Sun's Zenith to kill me. I could have stopped it by killing Fatesticher, but I did not see the combo, Saka was tapped out from unmorphing Brine Elemental, so we lost quite fast.
We tallied the scores for the month, and this great deck came in, out of 10-12 regulars..........................fourth place.
Thoughts after playing this deck for three weeks.
Death Denied is the best of the recursion, since it is the cheapest, Disturbed Burial is the next best, since it is reliable, and Grim Harvest is the worst, since you need a guy to die to get it back.
Condescend and Overrule need to go, to be replaced by real counters, since this deck needs to win counterwars to get anywhere and they do not counter much in the late game. I would probably replace one with Dispel, and maybe I should try Sun's Bounty for life gain.
Rush of Knowledge finally drew me 5 cards, and it allowed me to keep up a counterwall that was nigh unbeatable by one person.
Yavimaya Elder is hard to cast at 1GG, but I guess Mr. Greencestral is so good when he works that he cannot be cut.
I thought about putting in Gitaxian Probe/Duress to see if the way is clear before doing stuff, then I realized I should just add another counter and be good.
Needless to say, after playing this month, counters are important for this deck.
Also, after we played the rounds, someone asked why I did not use uncommons. I said in order to give them a chance to win.
Think of the sick stuff this could do with E Wit, more transmute, and Controvert.
Compulsive Research is the real deal, I run it in my list and love for its digging power.
Hindering Light is a sick, sick blowout in 1v1. In multi, it is good, but I found that I mostly use my counters to counter counters. It has a place, maybe in a version that runs more enchantments or in a meta that has lots of land destruction. Hindering Light on Primal Command targeting your 1 mountain is downright amazing. I may try it over the unless pay X counters, and it looks like a beautiful foil.
EDIT: I switched out Condescend for Memory Lapse for testing purposes. Its a hard counter for 1U, which seems good.
Such a sick deck. I don't have some of the really degenerate cards, capsize, grim-harvest. So I ended up building a peasant version. Normal peasant plays five uncommons so 40% more cards... My build runs eight uncommons. Some cards that I'm using that I haven't seen mentioned.
Rend Spirit, Eyeblights ending. Both are instant speed and can kill child, I found the red in terminate to be detrimental.
Spore frog, this guy + recursion > every aggro deck ever.
Worldly consul, though this might become forbidden alchemy as its generally better.
Skulltap, its one of my sac outlets and a decent draw spell. There's a new one in Inistard that's instant speed, but that might be an uncommon. Nope Altar's Reap is a common. I'll post my list if anyone is interested.
I would be interested, always want to be up on the latest tech.
Memory Lapse seems IS quite a bit way better than Condescend in meta full of counters. It is similar to Arcane Denial in that they seem bad at first glance, but counters that counter everything with no exceptions for 1U are great. Also, like Arcane Denial, people are not so mad when you counter their spell with Memory Lapse.
I wish there was something good to report, but I do not think I will be able to play this deck anymore.
In the first week of the league, first game, I was against Wrexial again, and Rhys, and Doran. Eh, the game took a long time, I had my graveyard exiled with about 50 cards in it, but me and Wrexial were the only ones standing at the end of the round.
The second round, which is currently happening when I write this, was me vs Garza Zol, Angus, and Rhys again. The Garza Zol player said he would go for me from the beginning, not caring about anyone else, because my deck was unfun to play against. I cannot get over the hypocrisy of ruining someone else's fun to make a point like that. I had never played this guy, and this was his first week at the league, so the only reason he knew about my deck was the Rafiq player saying how I scooped to early pressure and how I took a long time to win, and last round, I had said that I should try to survive the final 18 minutes until it was over.
Anyway, since he was hellbent on ruining my fun, even at the cost of his own chance of winning, I left before I even got a turn so that I could actually enjoy the next two hours. This ....human being will probably be at the next three weeks, and since it is a month long league, I cannot switch generals for a while. So I guess this means that I wont have weekly updates with this deck, for good.
I do not know what I am expected to do, though. It is not like the deck can magicly speed up its winning by 20+ turns. This guy also had no problem with a point farmer stalling the game in order to get more points, while playing probably the best deck there that day.
Hopefully I will not go back to this league this month, but since I will have softened up by next week, I may try it one more time. Who knows. The deck is probably going to be unplayable, since even the theoretically best version can never stand up to 3v1, which that guy tried to convince the others to do. Agh, I cannot believe I traded with this jerk before the first round started.
I will not take this deck apart, but I do not know if it can even be salvaged to agree with these people's newfound standards of fun. I maybe have to run every x burn spell that I can, since nobody has ever heard of scooping, and complain when I wrath all the time and have the game locked up 100%.
All this to say, be careful. Apparently, even the fact that you run ALL COMMONS with not be enough for some to declare your deck something worth triple-teaming and hating out.
Oh yeah, Reaping the Graves is a card that I have considered for a while.
I will not take this deck apart, but I do not know if it can even be salvaged to agree with these people's newfound standards of fun. I maybe have to run every x burn spell that I can, since nobody has ever heard of scooping, and complain when I wrath all the time and have the game locked up 100%.
All this to say, be careful. Apparently, even the fact that you run ALL COMMONS with not be enough for some to declare your deck something worth triple-teaming and hating out.
Man, I'm sorry to hear that. While the Garza Zol player was clearly in the wrong, this seems to be a recurring trend: the attrition-based win conditions of this deck are not for the faint-hearted, and they will surely agitate anyone without thick skin, levelheadedness, or at least an appreciation for what we are trying to do. LittlestMorte had to stop playing the deck because folks in his playgroup started to despise losing to it, Nideovinja gets called a d-bag for it, I've had people say "I'm not playing in a game as long as Child of Alara is in it," and now this nonsense. I feel we have created a monster.
Maybe it's a little sick of me to consider that a success?
Still, it is unfortunate (and largely representative of the casual M:tG community) that people will just pick and choose which parts of Magic are acceptable, while socially retaliating against things they don't like. You're allowed to "eat the meat and spit out the bones," but come on, all this over a trading card game? People need to chill, because in a thousand years, who's really going to care? You made the right decision to stop playing the deck for a while; it's not worth provoking people to anger.
I haven't found the time to finish the "Card Choices" section of the primer because things at work have been very taxing of late, and the EDH tournament has eaten a good chunk of my EDH time. I am still working on it, though.
Quote from Narglfrob »
Reaping the Graves seems good.
Reaping the Graves IS good, and I have used it to some success in other pauper decks. Here, it could have a place, but I feel like it is just more of something we have plenty of already. Like Memory Lapse and Pyroblast, it would probably shine best in a meta of heavy blue control decks since it is resistant to countermagic. Possibly it could just replace Disturbed Burial or something?
First off, thanks for all the work everyone has done on this deck.:thumbsup:
I've been following this for sometime and I'm proud to say that I have a large stack of commons on the way! This concept has reinvigorated this retired PTQ grinders zest for MtG after a long hiatus because of the games unaffordable price creep.
Reaping the Graves is in fact a powerful common, but it isn't better than Grim Harvest, Disturbed Burial, or Death Denied. It may certainly warrant inclusion, but replacing one of the other recursion spells isn't at all optimal.
Looking forward to posting here going forward! Thanks again everyone!:thumbsup:
After of month of not playing Child in the league, but just in some games, I noticed some very very tiny stuff that only happens when you play a deck too much...
Green mana might as well be colorless at the end of the game, we play so many forests just so that we can fix our mana, but so few green spells. Not much we can do except maybe play some heavier green spells without worry.
This deck really could use a mana sink of some sort, although I cannot think of many since I am headed to bed soon and am quite tired. We leave up mana to do stuff, so end of turn effects would be nice, especially something repeatable. Mind Games seems decent in that regard. I will have to try it. That or Sprout Swarm.
People overstate how many times you wipe the board. Someone said how my deck is unfun cause I wipe every other turn, when I only did it twice that game. The chilling effect of having Child out buys you so much time and reduces that actual amount of wrathing that you need to do. I got a reputation of wrathing to kill one powerful creature, so people respect what I do.
About politics-Mind Extraction basically says reveal it and target player can never attack you until they have 2 counters in hand. You can ride that card all the way to victory by twisting people's arms to not do anything relevant until you have the soft lock set up.
I have yet to get Disturbed Burial countered. People do not respect that card at all. I do not know why though.
Bajuka Bog will always be headed your way, so play Dredge-do not overextend into the graveyard sweeper. You only need one of Grim Harvest, Disturbed Burial and Death Denied to be on infi gas, so save the rest for after Bog/Crypt/Bog/Spellbomb/Bog/Wretch/and Bog.
Removal spells like Unmake, Terminate, Rend Flesh, and Wrecking Ball usually create branching lines of play. That is, destroying something other than Child of Alara. Streamlining is good! Replacing them with 1cc removal in the form of blasts and Skred has to be optimal.
Drawing cards is nowhere near as important as increasing card quality when playing "pillow fort" like this. Rush of Knowledge is included as a returnable refill button, but everything else is instant speed draw filtering. We don't need tons of extra cards...we need the correct ones.
Every playable tutor is included (some marginal). Dizzy Spell is actually pretty clutch with an assortment of blasts and Reclaim available.
Condescend and Overrule are way too restrictive on the cost and are much better as Cancel and Stoic Rebuttal. Wandering Stream is a shotgun blast of life that fills that hole, costs very little, and is easily returnable. Its also easier to play with than Sylvok Lifestaff while wiping the board.
Cycling lands are quaint, but always lackluster. The combination of Trinket Mage for lands plus Panoramas makes landing Child of Alara early and through LD much easier.
This is going very well indeed. Thoughts welcome of course.
It's been awhile since I've gotten to play with the deck, but I do have some quick thoughts.
Everyone's running Altar's Reap since it's obviously insane, but no one else seems to be running Skulltap or Primal Growth, the sorcery-speed equivalents. The fact that they can't counter your "removal spell" for Child is a pretty high upside, and getting the extra cards/lands is just pure value. They're cheap enough that you can easily leave up countermagic and have utility outside of killing Child.
For people looking for life gain, I've been playing with Kabira Crossroads for awhile, and Capsizing that has won me a ton of games without taking up a spell slot. I really wanted Wandering Stream to be good, but I just haven't liked it. Maybe Gnaw to the Bone is a reasonable thing to try? Seems like on average it'd gain as much or more life as Wandering Stream, with flashback and at instant speed.
@TheOrangePet
Have you considered Deprive or Syncopate instead of Cancel or Stoic Rebuttal? I haven't seen too many people playing with either of those two counters, but they've both been very good for me, especially Deprive. Because of the spell-lands like Halimar Depths and Bojuka Bog, Deprive often feels like a 2-for-1, and seems much better than Cancel, at the least.
I also want to know how the Blue Blasts have been. I really like having as many one-mana ways to kill Child as possible, and the REBs are sweet because they hate on the best color, but the blue blasts just seem excessive. How good are they if people are only playing red as a secondary or tertiary color? That just seems a little too narrow to me.
I like the idea of Scrivener and Vedalken Aethermage. The biggest problem I see is that you're making room for that by cutting all of the utility spells like Qasali Pridemage and Rend Flesh. Can you deal with problematic permanents without Child of Alara or Capsize? What do you do if you have to Wrath early and then someone casts another threat that must be dealt with? The card selection and additional recursion is nice, but doesn't seem like it does much if all you can find is more card selection.
Nice to see you're still with us on this Carlos, your opinions are always welcome!
Quote from cag08055 »
It's been awhile since I've gotten to play with the deck, but I do have some quick thoughts.
Everyone's running Altar's Reap since it's obviously insane, but no one else seems to be running Skulltap or Primal Growth, the sorcery-speed equivalents. The fact that they can't counter your "removal spell" for Child is a pretty high upside, and getting the extra cards/lands is just pure value. They're cheap enough that you can easily leave up countermagic and have utility outside of killing Child.
Bold underline is my emphasis and the major stumbling block. With this issue we're talking about the difference between a sledgehammer and a scalpel. You're getting a strong, nigh-unstoppable, sweeper effect in exchange for political leverage. I get really cautious about these because I can longer play politician during other peoples turns with instant speed sweeping. That being said, these might honestly have a place in cutthroat meta-games where no one is paying attention to table politics, but my meta-game isn't that and I suspect the majority are the same.
Quote from cag08055 »
For people looking for life gain, I've been playing with Kabira Crossroads for awhile, and Capsizing that has won me a ton of games without taking up a spell slot. I really wanted Wandering Stream to be good, but I just haven't liked it. Maybe Gnaw to the Bone is a reasonable thing to try? Seems like on average it'd gain as much or more life as Wandering Stream, with flashback and at instant speed.
I've really been wrestling with the slot I use to gain life. I know Overrule is too costly to fill it. The main reason I went away from Kabira Crossroads is because of the card heavy nature of Trinket Mage and artifact lands. Gnaw to the Bone is a great idea that will probably be going in, thanks!
@TheOrangePet
Quote from cag08055 »
Have you considered Deprive or Syncopate instead of Cancel or Stoic Rebuttal? I haven't seen too many people playing with either of those two counters, but they've both been very good for me, especially Deprive. Because of the spell-lands like Halimar Depths and Bojuka Bog, Deprive often feels like a 2-for-1, and seems much better than Cancel, at the least.
Syncopate has the same issues as Overrule and Condescend, this deck is clearly mana hungry and leaving up half-a-dozen mana for a counter really kills your lines of play until you've already got the game in the bag. Deprive has been in the deck from time to time. Its not in now because, just like above, my ETB land count is low because of the resiliency of artifact lands and Panoramas.
Quote from cag08055 »
I also want to know how the Blue Blasts have been. I really like having as many one-mana ways to kill Child as possible, and the REBs are sweet because they hate on the best color, but the blue blasts just seem excessive. How good are they if people are only playing red as a secondary or tertiary color? That just seems a little too narrow to me.
They seem narrow, but really help add consistency to an inconsistent constructed deck type. If we assume our opponent is playing red as tertiary, the worst thing they'll ever do is counter a commander, which is actually the most threatening thing many decks can muster after a few Child of Alara triggers. In a different deck these are certainly too narrow to be played given the power level and frequency of good targets, but Child of Alara always provides a perfect target. Having so many instant speed 1cc ways to suicide the angry baby lets you play table politics like no ones business.
Quote from cag08055 »
I like the idea of Scrivener and Vedalken AEthermage. The biggest problem I see is that you're making room for that by cutting all of the utility spells like Qasali Pridemage and Rend Flesh. Can you deal with problematic permanents without Child of Alara or Capsize? What do you do if you have to Wrath early and then someone casts another threat that must be dealt with? The card selection and additional recursion is nice, but doesn't seem like it does much if all you can find is more card selection.
I feel like the best counter opinion to your very relevant points is that Child of Alara should be popped again. Even in the mid-game, with so much draw filtering, tutoring, and recursion finding another way to cast and again stomp out the baby is almost trivial.
It seems like theres a perception among us that frequently triggering Child of Alara is socially taboo, almost like Armageddon effects. Don't get me wrong here, I enjoy socially acceptable lines of play, but if your opponents allow you to ramp out of control through land-based and graveyard-based resources it simply invokes them to increase the resiliency of their decks to remain competitive. I really felt that every time I casted those pinpoint utility spells I was giving up card economy and tempo compared to simply wiping the slate clean again.
Glad to see Wizardcycling tech being used. Your list also seems to be without Grim Harvest, so I assume that is a typo?
I blow up Child a lot, but I find that when it comes down to 1v1, it is nice to have real removal in order win more quickly, as in before I deck myself and people start to complain about the slowness. Anyway, I like the flexibility of Eyeblight's Ending over Hydroblast. It can kill Child, but also a Sphinx or Titan. Sure Child can kill them, but what it you only have Gravedigger in hand and not Grim Harvest and friends?
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Moriok Replica is a big deal, like Zombie Shakespeare pointed out. Gargoyle also chump blocks fliers, which has been incredibly useful for me -- I do a lot of chump blocking in between board resets.
I have actually considered the other cards you mentioned at one point or another. Dismantling Blow was in one build, but I decided I didn't really need another disenchant effect. Call to Heel and Skulltap are probably fine, but they are a little too situational for my tastes.
Overheat pretty much covered this. As a colorless mana fixer that is easily reused, Twisted Abomination is solid, and it can do a fine job in the red zone if need be. I think that perhaps this slot is supposed to be Preordain, though... I don't remember.
Sweet! Thanks a ton for the tournament report; I love reading this sort of thing. Congratulations on the solid finish. Keep us posted on this!
1. I may have to jump on the Pyroblast bandwagon. My old (new old, not old old) playgroup had very little serious blue, but blue is usually prevalent in random pickup games. I hope it's as bonkers as everyone is making it out to be.
2. Sounds difficult to enforce, but whatever! Good for us!
3. That's perfectly acceptable. Between those, Rush of Knowledge, and the preexisting draw spells, you should be set.
4. Bah, we don't need those shenanigans. In fact, I don't think I'd play them even if they were common! Dedicated sac outlets are just too narrow, and we need to make the most of our 99!
Still not a fan of Dizzy Spell. If you use it primarily as a way to tutor Fireball, why not just play Rolling Thunder instead and tutor for it with Muddle the Mixture, Shred Memory, or Dimir Infiltrator? Double red is a pain, I guess, but by the time I want to start burning opponents out of the game, I have approximately >9000 mana available, anyway.
Command Tower is superb and should already be in the list in the OP. Mana Cylix is card disadvantage for minimal gain; I would turn to Wanderer's Twig or something before this. Hull Breach is great, and would be a fine replacement/supplement to the disenchants already in the deck! And Hearth Charm just doesn't do enough to warrant an inclusion, typically.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Honestly, any old draw spell will get the job done. Foresee, Compulsive Research, whatever. The Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora slots are very flexible, and the only reason I continue to strictly adhere to these two are because a friend has given them custom art, so they have some sentimental value.
Speaking of which, sentimental value is one of the reasons I continue to play a Trinket Mage package. Now that I have cut Dispeller's Capsule, the package is not actively bad, so I am content with the added utility. Apparently a build without Trinket Mage works very well, though.
Bonus! SCG Open: Atlanta Report
I happened to be in Atlanta buying a new drum set today, and it just so happened that SCG was in town! Awesome. I dropped by to see some judge friends, and I managed to squeak in one Commander side event before I had to leave. I played this deck, of course. Here is a very brief rundown:
Against Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Nin, the Pain Artist, and Mikaeus, the Luminarch. Between Twisted Abomination, Farhaven Elf, and Momentary Blink, I am set for mana. I am afraid of Armageddon, so I am leaving mana up for Arcane Denial almost the entire game. Nin draws some early hate despite playing the "group hug" game for a while, so I get some breathing room until Child of Alara hits the field and Brainspoil resets the board.
The hate starts coming my way, but I stave off most of it with chump blockers and Capsize. Everyone else is starting to run low on gas, and Nin does some crazy mana shenanigans to get a huge Insurrection. After going into the tank, I take a gamble and let it resolve -- if the Nin player swings at me, I'm toast. If he doesn't, then he's out of gas and someone else is dead. Good news: the Elesh Norn bites the bullet instead!
I start to lock up the game with Child of Alara and Oblivion Ring + Capsize, and the Mikaeus player scoops in aggravation. Nin tries to fight it out, but he is topdecking and I have a fist full of gas and two counterspells.
I leave with -1 Flusterstorm, +1 Chandra, the Firebrand, +1 Sensei's Divining Top, and +1 Demonic Tutor. I'd say it was a success!
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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About Dizzy Spell, I mainly use it to get Fireball... and by Fireball I mean Pyroblast. Seriously, against blue decks there is nothing that you want more than that. It counters counters for one mana and kills Sphinx dead. Also, if the table has no Blue, then not only can you kill Child with it but victory should be easy.
Here is what I will be sleeving up tomorrow.
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Horizon Spellbomb
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Mulldrifter
1 Scrivener
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Izzet Chronarch
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Vedalken Aethermage
1 Gravedigger
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Cadaver Imp
1 Anarchist
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Snakeform
1 Grim Harvest
1 Condescend
1 Overrule
1 Dizzy Spell
1 Impulse
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Arcane Denial
1 Death Denied
1 Counterspell
1 Perplex
1 Pyroblast
1 Wrecking Ball
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Soul Manipulation
1 Shred Memory
1 Capsize
1 Rend Flesh
1 Momentary Blink
1 Unmake
1 Deep Analysis
1 Divination
1 Mind Extraction
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Foresee
1 Compulsive Research
1 Fireball
1 Cultivate
1 Disturbed Burial
1 Brainspoil
1 Preordain
1 Far Wanderings
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Rhystic Study
10 Island
1 Halimar Depths
3 Plains
8 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Mountain
10 Forest
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Rupture Spire
1 Command Tower
I played a few games this week, and Vedalken Aethermage is the real deal. That can get three of our spell recursion cards, and Qasali Pridemage, or Sea Gate Oracle, if you still run that. Also, bounces a sliver if you need it against slivers or Chameleon Colossus.
Some interesting stuff about what makes this deck tick. The average CMC for spells is a lean and mean 2.65. The highest CMC is 7 because of Tusker, but since he really is there to cycle, the highest real cost is 5. We can do our thing much earlier than anyone else. I have managed to cram 22 MONO-blue spells into a 5 color deck, Blue draw/filter and Transmute are what holds this deck together. Without those, it does nothing.
Also, med price on TCGPlayer is $31.03, so Child laughes at the measly $50 deck challenge. I also realized this week that this is close in power to my Thrax deck, which means Thrax needs to go on a CMC diet. "Bloat Creep" is an accurate term to describe what happens to many EDH decks over time. I just entered it and found Thrax average CMC is 3.98. Does not sound like much, but each spell is an average 1.33 more expensive, so it cannot cast two spells a turn until almost three turns later, and Child has much more ramp, being green and all.
tl;dr-keep the deck lean, it is what makes it tick the way it does.
Edit: Whoo that was epic. First, the Mimeoplasm player was not there, so I took out Nihil Spellbomb for Sea Gate Oracle.
Game 1: It was me vs Damia, Nin, and Rhys the Redeemed.
Rhys did nothing of interest during the entire games since he was not Blue, and never played anything threatening, since he was stuck on mana.
After about ten turns of setting up, the board was stalled because of Meishin, the Mind Cage and Child. I had a soft lock because of Scrivener+ Death Denied. I said that I could Mind Extraction people and win, but that that would be mean.
After another 15 turns or nothing relevant, there was 45 mins left in the round, so I said that I was going to try to win. I Mind Extracted the two Blue players, revealed 3 coutnerspells+Disturbed Burial+Death Denied to get the concession from the table.
The second game was much more interesting. I was against the same Damia, Hazezon Tamar, and Rafiq.
Rafiq and Hazezon got out Primeval Titan early and got tons of lands. Rafiq resolved Consecrated Sphinx, and drew tons of cards, but on his end step I killed his Reliquary Tower. Hazezon played Kozilek with Mosswart Bridge, and I bought his favor by bouncing it with Capsize to play again for more cards.
He killed Rafiq and Damia quickly with his tokens, then he is ready to kill me. I need to get Child from the graveyard to not die, and need to draw a way to do it. I had Chronarch in hand, but no spell ways to recur in my graveyard. I draw Brainspoil, and go into the tank. I transmute for Rush of Knowledge, cast it off Darksteel Ingot, and draw land, land, Merchant Scroll. I scroll for Mystical Teachings, cast that for Grim Harvest, then get back Child. His sand warriors come in during his turn. He passes, so on my turn I flashback Mystical Teachings to get Death Denied, and keep wiping the board until his general costs 23 mana to play, and then he concedes, since he has no hand from a Mind Extraction.
For almost not playing Sea Gate Oracle, he was very good, and I do not think that I can cut him again. Having 4 guys to return instants or sorceries is better than two even though they can only return one type. Far Wanderings was its usual awesome self. Both games it was played on turn three, then gotten back with Anarchist/Chronarch for a mana boost in the mid game. I have to stop praising the card, but it is so good that I do not know if I can. Unmake was also there for Ulamog and Shield of Kaldra, I would not every consider playing this deck without a way to kill Indestructible guys.
Making a land drop every turn is also important, and both games I played a land every turn until it was 1v1 or I had gone infinite with recursion.
It was an awesome week, and I am glad that I was able to win with Child again. However, next week I am expecting more Tormod's Crypts and Relics and Nihil Spellbombs. The Hazezon guy said he considered adding some this week, but did not, so he may have quite a bit next time.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
On Sea Gate Oracle: Yeah, this guy is a champ. He doesn't provide anything unique, really, but he's just good solid value. He's here to stay.
On Unmake: Indestructible dudes can be a pain, sure, but I'm not sure this is necessary. You make it sound like Diabolic Edict is our only out, but countermagic and Capsize do the job just as well. I'm still playing Oblivion Ring in this slot I guess, which handles indestructibles and gets really cute with Capsize (yesterday, I used Oblivion Ring and Capsize to handle the Mikaeus player's Shield of Kaldra, which was what prompted the concession/ragequit).
On Far Wanderings: Oh yeah, freaking awesome. Easily one of the best cards in the deck. Here is my stab at our top 5 cards (not counting the general, of course):
1. Capsize -- It's not even close. This card is ridonculous.
2. Mystical Teachings -- Grabs Capsize and anything else, and is the backbone of the tutor chain.
3. Far Wanderings -- Just abuse this card until we win. That is all.
4. Disturbed Burial -- One of our best, most flexible late-game plans.
5. Mind Extraction -- The haymaker of choice for transitioning from defensive mode to dreamcrushing mode.
Does that seem accurate?
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Top cards in the deck, IMHO:
1 Mystical Teachings:If I were asked what card to have in the opener, it is this card every time.
2 Mind Extraction: Stops Blue mages, and if you tutor for it EVERY SINGLE GAME, then it might be important to your strategy.
3 Death Denied: The disturbed burial for cheap instant speed and gases up our hand quickly at the end of our opponents turn. Does not have buyback, but you are getting Chronarch/Wall/Scrivener, right?
4 Izzet Chronarch/Mnemonic Wall/Scrivener/Anarchist: I thought of something today. When I am playing, I think of the game as having two states. Either we have access to our graveyard, or we do not. No degrees, no ifs, no buts, a binary statement of how we are doing in the game.
5 Far Wanderings: Same deal, it ramps, it ramps more, never countered even though it is a sweet 3 for 1.
6 Tutors:Transmute cards, Merchant Scroll, etc. Get the job done, provide consistency, let us play the good spells in our deck over and over and over.
7 Capsize: Against 2-3 Blue players (aka, every game at this league) this gets countered first time, every time if you use it on their stuff, and if you try anything powerful targeting your own stuff, then they counter/kill your guy. Still, its good after Mind Extraction has left you the only player with counters.
Let me say this. In this league, the lowest number of Blue players at a table I have played in is 3. Seeing just two Blue players at a table is extremely rare, it never really happens. Also, the Hazezon player is switching to Blue in three weeks when a new league starts. The decks are starting to add more countermagic, since noboby is punishing them for having so few win conditions. It is so bad that I would play Guttural Response if it were common. And that card is terrible. Actually, now that I think about it, Dispel should go into my deck. That is just sad, but I may have to do it.
Luckily, our deck is well suited against Blue. It gets CA in slow drips, so they cannot counter one spell and then we are out of gas. It is sickeningly redundant, and most of its tutors cannot be countered. I cannot blame everyone for playing Blue, since combo and mass LD are banned, how else are you supposed to win?
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Have you made any significant changes lately that would warrant the updating of the original deck list? I have seen some recommendations in the thread that have churned up good dialog and positive responses (Command Tower, Unmake, Hull Breach). Any thoughts of adding them to the OP deck list? Last update looks like end of June...
Forbidden Alchemy. Seems like an easy replacement for Impulse. Guaranteed 2 for 1 and puts card in GY instead of bottom of the library.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Teneb, the Harvester: Let there be life!
Drafting Aggro in the Cube: A Primer for Beginners
Your point is a good one. I am in the process of updating the OP into a full-fledged primer, with alternative card choices and everything.
Thank you for posting the link! I'd been meaning to reference it for a few days now. I added a reference in the OP.
Awww yeah, rocking the commons and crushing the competition. I like it!
Agreed; I'm pretty excited about this card. I hope the art is good.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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I guess this week I will have to take full notes about what happens.;)
I started to foil out this deck, and I got a foil Japanese signed Unmake, so sadly I can never cut it from my list ever. I finally got someone to trade a foil Preordain, but it is embarrassing what I had to give up for it.
After seeing the QS video, I must say that Skulltap looks interesting. Farhaven Elf sometimes dies to Child before it even chump blocks, so it maybe useful even if you do not need it to kill Child. That said, it does not help if you topdeck it late with no creatures, which seems to be a deal breaker.
Nothing new, except I have officially switched Sea Gate Oracle for Nihil Spellbomb. Sea gate is just too good, but Nihil will be there when I arrive and see that both Mimeoplasm and Chainer are there. Bojuka Bog and Shred Memory should be enough to stop most graveyard strategies.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
I played my deck in the OP, except I used Sea Gate instead of Nihil Spellbomb, since there were no other serious graveyard decks.
We had 9 people so there were 3 tables of 3. I was up against the previous Wrexial deck and Sakashima.
We do stuff the first 8 or so turns, then I play Child and start to swing at Sakashima. I start to stock counterspells, since none have been played and it seems like there will be an epic counterwar eventually.
I have done 18 general damage to Saka, so I play Foresee, Preordain, evoke Mulldrifter to draw Pyroblast. I swing at Sakashima, then Wrexial Go for the Throat's Child to get the Savior point, which I Arcane Denial, he Muddle the Mixture's that, then I play Pyroblast, which meets Counterspell, I have the trump card with Red Elemental Blast that I had Dizzy Spell'd for earlier, so 1 player down. I then Mind Extraction Wrexial and expect the concession soon after.
Wrexial had had Nihil Spellbomb out for a while, and I had tried to get him to break it, but he patiently waited until I went for Arcane Denial with Scrivener. I lost Wrecking Ball and Fireball in there, and when it turned out that he had Mystifying Maze in play, I thought I was not long for this world. I tried to get in as much damage as I could with dorks, but it was not going to happen. I thought I had him, then he cast Rite of Replication on Sphinx of Lost Truths to filter some cards and make blockers, so I tried to Diabolic Edict myself to kill Child in response. He had shuffled his graveyard with Ulamog, so he probably had some counters, but it was worth a try. He Muddled, I Muddled that, he Draining Whelks, I Faerie Trickery, and that gets Counterspell'd.
The only reason that I was not dead already was that Disturbed Burial gave me a counter a turn with Chronarch/Wall/Scrivener. I have about 15 cards left in my library, and realize that Capsize would get me out of this jam, so I evoke Mulldrifter, Grim Harvest, evoke, Impulse, take Capsize, pass the turn, and get the concession after I Capsize his Maze on my turn.
After this marathon, the second was very quick. Against the same Sakashima and Nin, we all do nothing for a while. Nin uses Pemmin's Aura on Fatesticher, that plus Khalani Gem + Blue Sun's Zenith is draw 47, play Stuffy Doll
Nin it to kill Sakashima, and Red Sun's Zenith to kill me. I could have stopped it by killing Fatesticher, but I did not see the combo, Saka was tapped out from unmorphing Brine Elemental, so we lost quite fast.
We tallied the scores for the month, and this great deck came in, out of 10-12 regulars..........................fourth place.
Thoughts after playing this deck for three weeks.
Death Denied is the best of the recursion, since it is the cheapest, Disturbed Burial is the next best, since it is reliable, and Grim Harvest is the worst, since you need a guy to die to get it back.
Condescend and Overrule need to go, to be replaced by real counters, since this deck needs to win counterwars to get anywhere and they do not counter much in the late game. I would probably replace one with Dispel, and maybe I should try Sun's Bounty for life gain.
Rush of Knowledge finally drew me 5 cards, and it allowed me to keep up a counterwall that was nigh unbeatable by one person.
Yavimaya Elder is hard to cast at 1GG, but I guess Mr. Greencestral is so good when he works that he cannot be cut.
I thought about putting in Gitaxian Probe/Duress to see if the way is clear before doing stuff, then I realized I should just add another counter and be good.
Needless to say, after playing this month, counters are important for this deck.
Also, after we played the rounds, someone asked why I did not use uncommons. I said in order to give them a chance to win.
Think of the sick stuff this could do with E Wit, more transmute, and Controvert.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Edit: Another good one: Compulsive Research
Hindering Light is a sick, sick blowout in 1v1. In multi, it is good, but I found that I mostly use my counters to counter counters. It has a place, maybe in a version that runs more enchantments or in a meta that has lots of land destruction. Hindering Light on Primal Command targeting your 1 mountain is downright amazing. I may try it over the unless pay X counters, and it looks like a beautiful foil.
EDIT: I switched out Condescend for Memory Lapse for testing purposes. Its a hard counter for 1U, which seems good.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Rend Spirit, Eyeblights ending. Both are instant speed and can kill child, I found the red in terminate to be detrimental.
Spore frog, this guy + recursion > every aggro deck ever.
Worldly consul, though this might become forbidden alchemy as its generally better.
Skulltap, its one of my sac outlets and a decent draw spell. There's a new one in Inistard that's instant speed, but that might be an uncommon. Nope Altar's Reap is a common. I'll post my list if anyone is interested.
Memory Lapse
seemsISquite a bitway better than Condescend in meta full of counters. It is similar to Arcane Denial in that they seem bad at first glance, but counters that counter everything with no exceptions for 1U are great. Also, like Arcane Denial, people are not so mad when you counter their spell with Memory Lapse.Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
In the first week of the league, first game, I was against Wrexial again, and Rhys, and Doran. Eh, the game took a long time, I had my graveyard exiled with about 50 cards in it, but me and Wrexial were the only ones standing at the end of the round.
The second round, which is currently happening when I write this, was me vs Garza Zol, Angus, and Rhys again. The Garza Zol player said he would go for me from the beginning, not caring about anyone else, because my deck was unfun to play against. I cannot get over the hypocrisy of ruining someone else's fun to make a point like that. I had never played this guy, and this was his first week at the league, so the only reason he knew about my deck was the Rafiq player saying how I scooped to early pressure and how I took a long time to win, and last round, I had said that I should try to survive the final 18 minutes until it was over.
Anyway, since he was hellbent on ruining my fun, even at the cost of his own chance of winning, I left before I even got a turn so that I could actually enjoy the next two hours. This ....human being will probably be at the next three weeks, and since it is a month long league, I cannot switch generals for a while. So I guess this means that I wont have weekly updates with this deck, for good.
I do not know what I am expected to do, though. It is not like the deck can magicly speed up its winning by 20+ turns. This guy also had no problem with a point farmer stalling the game in order to get more points, while playing probably the best deck there that day.
Hopefully I will not go back to this league this month, but since I will have softened up by next week, I may try it one more time. Who knows. The deck is probably going to be unplayable, since even the theoretically best version can never stand up to 3v1, which that guy tried to convince the others to do. Agh, I cannot believe I traded with this jerk before the first round started.
I will not take this deck apart, but I do not know if it can even be salvaged to agree with these people's newfound standards of fun. I maybe have to run every x burn spell that I can, since nobody has ever heard of scooping, and complain when I wrath all the time and have the game locked up 100%.
All this to say, be careful. Apparently, even the fact that you run ALL COMMONS with not be enough for some to declare your deck something worth triple-teaming and hating out.
Oh yeah, Reaping the Graves is a card that I have considered for a while.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Man, I'm sorry to hear that. While the Garza Zol player was clearly in the wrong, this seems to be a recurring trend: the attrition-based win conditions of this deck are not for the faint-hearted, and they will surely agitate anyone without thick skin, levelheadedness, or at least an appreciation for what we are trying to do. LittlestMorte had to stop playing the deck because folks in his playgroup started to despise losing to it, Nideovinja gets called a d-bag for it, I've had people say "I'm not playing in a game as long as Child of Alara is in it," and now this nonsense. I feel we have created a monster.
Maybe it's a little sick of me to consider that a success?
Still, it is unfortunate (and largely representative of the casual M:tG community) that people will just pick and choose which parts of Magic are acceptable, while socially retaliating against things they don't like. You're allowed to "eat the meat and spit out the bones," but come on, all this over a trading card game? People need to chill, because in a thousand years, who's really going to care? You made the right decision to stop playing the deck for a while; it's not worth provoking people to anger.
I haven't found the time to finish the "Card Choices" section of the primer because things at work have been very taxing of late, and the EDH tournament has eaten a good chunk of my EDH time. I am still working on it, though.
Reaping the Graves IS good, and I have used it to some success in other pauper decks. Here, it could have a place, but I feel like it is just more of something we have plenty of already. Like Memory Lapse and Pyroblast, it would probably shine best in a meta of heavy blue control decks since it is resistant to countermagic. Possibly it could just replace Disturbed Burial or something?
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
I've been following this for sometime and I'm proud to say that I have a large stack of commons on the way! This concept has reinvigorated this retired PTQ grinders zest for MtG after a long hiatus because of the games unaffordable price creep.
Reaping the Graves is in fact a powerful common, but it isn't better than Grim Harvest, Disturbed Burial, or Death Denied. It may certainly warrant inclusion, but replacing one of the other recursion spells isn't at all optimal.
Looking forward to posting here going forward! Thanks again everyone!:thumbsup:
Green mana might as well be colorless at the end of the game, we play so many forests just so that we can fix our mana, but so few green spells. Not much we can do except maybe play some heavier green spells without worry.
This deck really could use a mana sink of some sort, although I cannot think of many since I am headed to bed soon and am quite tired. We leave up mana to do stuff, so end of turn effects would be nice, especially something repeatable. Mind Games seems decent in that regard. I will have to try it. That or Sprout Swarm.
People overstate how many times you wipe the board. Someone said how my deck is unfun cause I wipe every other turn, when I only did it twice that game. The chilling effect of having Child out buys you so much time and reduces that actual amount of wrathing that you need to do. I got a reputation of wrathing to kill one powerful creature, so people respect what I do.
About politics-Mind Extraction basically says reveal it and target player can never attack you until they have 2 counters in hand. You can ride that card all the way to victory by twisting people's arms to not do anything relevant until you have the soft lock set up.
I have yet to get Disturbed Burial countered. People do not respect that card at all. I do not know why though.
Bajuka Bog will always be headed your way, so play Dredge-do not overextend into the graveyard sweeper. You only need one of Grim Harvest, Disturbed Burial and Death Denied to be on infi gas, so save the rest for after Bog/Crypt/Bog/Spellbomb/Bog/Wretch/and Bog.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
1 Child of Alara
Creature (19)
1 Anarchist
1 Scrivener
1 Leonin Squire
1 Mulldrifter
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Trinket Mage
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Gravedigger
1 Cadaver Imp
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Tilling Treefolk
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Izzet Chronarch
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Vedalken AEthermage
Instant (25)
1 Momentary Blink
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Capsize
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Counterspell
1 Arcane Denial
1 Death Denied
1 Shred Memory
1 Skred
1 Pyroblast
1 Soul Manipulation
1 Perplex
1 Altar's Reap
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Cancel
1 Dizzy Spell
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Hydroblast
1 Impulse
1 Reclaim
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Stoic Rebuttal
1 Worldly Counsel
1 Brainstorm
1 Brainspoil
1 Mind Extraction
1 Disturbed Burial
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Far Wanderings
1 Cultivate
1 Fireball
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Rush of Knowledge
1 Wandering Stream
Artifact (5)
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Horizon Spellbomb
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Expedition Map
Land (40)
1 Command Tower
1 Rupture Spire
1 Shimmering Grotto
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Tree of Tales
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Strip Mine
1 Bant Panorama
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Naya Panorama
1 Jund Panorama
1 Esper Panorama
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
7 Snow-Covered Island
7 Snow-Covered Forest
5 Snow-Covered Swamp
This is my current iteration. Its a mixture of ideas presented here and elsewhere. Its very streamlined for its purpose and feels really tight.
This is going very well indeed. Thoughts welcome of course.
Everyone's running Altar's Reap since it's obviously insane, but no one else seems to be running Skulltap or Primal Growth, the sorcery-speed equivalents. The fact that they can't counter your "removal spell" for Child is a pretty high upside, and getting the extra cards/lands is just pure value. They're cheap enough that you can easily leave up countermagic and have utility outside of killing Child.
For people looking for life gain, I've been playing with Kabira Crossroads for awhile, and Capsizing that has won me a ton of games without taking up a spell slot. I really wanted Wandering Stream to be good, but I just haven't liked it. Maybe Gnaw to the Bone is a reasonable thing to try? Seems like on average it'd gain as much or more life as Wandering Stream, with flashback and at instant speed.
@TheOrangePet
Have you considered Deprive or Syncopate instead of Cancel or Stoic Rebuttal? I haven't seen too many people playing with either of those two counters, but they've both been very good for me, especially Deprive. Because of the spell-lands like Halimar Depths and Bojuka Bog, Deprive often feels like a 2-for-1, and seems much better than Cancel, at the least.
I also want to know how the Blue Blasts have been. I really like having as many one-mana ways to kill Child as possible, and the REBs are sweet because they hate on the best color, but the blue blasts just seem excessive. How good are they if people are only playing red as a secondary or tertiary color? That just seems a little too narrow to me.
I like the idea of Scrivener and Vedalken Aethermage. The biggest problem I see is that you're making room for that by cutting all of the utility spells like Qasali Pridemage and Rend Flesh. Can you deal with problematic permanents without Child of Alara or Capsize? What do you do if you have to Wrath early and then someone casts another threat that must be dealt with? The card selection and additional recursion is nice, but doesn't seem like it does much if all you can find is more card selection.
Bold underline is my emphasis and the major stumbling block. With this issue we're talking about the difference between a sledgehammer and a scalpel. You're getting a strong, nigh-unstoppable, sweeper effect in exchange for political leverage. I get really cautious about these because I can longer play politician during other peoples turns with instant speed sweeping. That being said, these might honestly have a place in cutthroat meta-games where no one is paying attention to table politics, but my meta-game isn't that and I suspect the majority are the same.
I've really been wrestling with the slot I use to gain life. I know Overrule is too costly to fill it. The main reason I went away from Kabira Crossroads is because of the card heavy nature of Trinket Mage and artifact lands. Gnaw to the Bone is a great idea that will probably be going in, thanks!
@TheOrangePet
Syncopate has the same issues as Overrule and Condescend, this deck is clearly mana hungry and leaving up half-a-dozen mana for a counter really kills your lines of play until you've already got the game in the bag. Deprive has been in the deck from time to time. Its not in now because, just like above, my ETB land count is low because of the resiliency of artifact lands and Panoramas.
They seem narrow, but really help add consistency to an inconsistent constructed deck type. If we assume our opponent is playing red as tertiary, the worst thing they'll ever do is counter a commander, which is actually the most threatening thing many decks can muster after a few Child of Alara triggers. In a different deck these are certainly too narrow to be played given the power level and frequency of good targets, but Child of Alara always provides a perfect target. Having so many instant speed 1cc ways to suicide the angry baby lets you play table politics like no ones business.
I feel like the best counter opinion to your very relevant points is that Child of Alara should be popped again. Even in the mid-game, with so much draw filtering, tutoring, and recursion finding another way to cast and again stomp out the baby is almost trivial.
It seems like theres a perception among us that frequently triggering Child of Alara is socially taboo, almost like Armageddon effects. Don't get me wrong here, I enjoy socially acceptable lines of play, but if your opponents allow you to ramp out of control through land-based and graveyard-based resources it simply invokes them to increase the resiliency of their decks to remain competitive. I really felt that every time I casted those pinpoint utility spells I was giving up card economy and tempo compared to simply wiping the slate clean again.
Thanks for provoking thought!
Glad to see Wizardcycling tech being used. Your list also seems to be without Grim Harvest, so I assume that is a typo?
I blow up Child a lot, but I find that when it comes down to 1v1, it is nice to have real removal in order win more quickly, as in before I deck myself and people start to complain about the slowness. Anyway, I like the flexibility of Eyeblight's Ending over Hydroblast. It can kill Child, but also a Sphinx or Titan. Sure Child can kill them, but what it you only have Gravedigger in hand and not Grim Harvest and friends?
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide