Questions for Overheat: How are the guildgates working out? I know you can fetch them with Gatecreeper Vine, but does that make them more worthwhile than say, the bouncelands, which effectively net you advantage by being two lands at once?
I noticed you're not running Trinket Mage. Did you find that it didn't have enough utility? Related: no mass graveyard hate?
Bouncelands are a tempo blowout in a land where every deck has Strip Mine AND Tectonic Edge. Also, I am discarding down to 7 multiple times per game already, so the extra card might just be discarded anyway.
Trinket Mage without artifact lands is just meh. it gets Nihil Spellbomb or somesuch, nothing else really. Sadly, most other artifacts would only be run because of Trinket Mage, since they are less efficient than their spell-based counterparts. I prefer Sea Gate Oracle, because he gets new cards in my hand, including lands that are not killed by Disk/Vengeance.
Mass Graveyard hate? You mean like Nihil? Most cards in a graveyard do not matter, so you rely on Shred Memory for the specific ones. My version is about getting to inevitability as soon as possible, with as few cards that are not useful all the time as possible. Nihil early is just a cycler for no gain, and late game it is OK, but sometimes it is not great, instead of being a spell I always want. When you play so much mana, you can't afford to have your spells be bad too.
Ghostly Flicker and Mind Extraction are so powerful that you make exceptions, but value spells that are not always "on" are sketchy. Nobody can out-graveyard you anyway.
Kami of False Hope is another Spore Frog. I suppose creature-based fog effects are the best type for the deck, if you want them.
I think the benefit with Cavern Harpy is that it's an engine unto itself, though it can't save anything at instant speed (except itself). Then again, that's what GY recursion is for.
Also, Mystic Speculation is an uncommon.
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@Zombie, will test this Lion for sure, but not as a replacement for Harpy, which can be used multiple times. But will have to have more white mana available, I will change the mana base to fit it. Thanks pal!
@urdjur, thank you too. Dammit, I didn't see it (the uncommon)... will put the lion reaplacing it, tune the lands accordingly. About the Kami, will take one and put it in my maybeboard. Fog effects are not as cool as 'come into play' ones (which Harpy and Lion allow).
Edit1: My deck was edited.
Edit2: I tried to put the most relevant Gates (3 main colors) and 4 Panoramas (only RW didn't do it), so no utility lands. The only one I'm tempted to put is Haunted Fengraf. It's in my maybeboard with urdjur's Kami of False Hope. Any other ideas?
So, for my next Pauper project, I'm thinking of actually building this deck I'm starting with the mana base, as I think it is the biggest "problem" (or where there's most room for innovation) in the current list.
Most pauper lists start with 40 lands and trim down to 35-ish while adding 5-10 ramp spells and 5-10 draw spells. For some reason, this deck doesn't. It's not due to curve reasons - the mana demands of this deck isn't greater than most pauper decks. This leaves color fixing. The problem though is that the deck uses green for color fixing, forcing it to add lots of forests so it can play lots of green color fixers/ramp, without much use for green mana outside of color fixing. In this manner, about a dozen slots go to waste IMO, that could have been valuable business spells.
My solution to this problem is basically a single card: Traumatic Visions. If we can tap into the power of this deck's 10-or-so tutors for non-green mana fixing, we don't really need the heavy green stuff nor the forests to back them up. This means more blue and black mana for us, and better consistency, while still being able to assemble all colors by turn 5-6. We can already transmute for Darksteel Ingot with the 3 CMC tutors, and for Expedition Map (or Wayfarer's Bauble) with Dizzy Spell (which I will run, along with Skred, Reclaim, Mystic Remora and others). Adding Traumatic Visions puts Merchant Scroll on-line, but also adds all the 2 CMC transmuters that tutor for Merchant Scroll as a color fixing option (Armillary Sphere is a more direct path, but I haven't decided on it yet). It's also possible to get via Brainspoil and Mystical Teachings.
My secondary solution is to include the Golgari and Simic guildgates, as well as the 2 green cyclers. In this manner, we get 4 more green sources to motivate a handfull or so of the best green ramp/fetch spells (Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Far Wanderings, Sakura Tribe-Elder and perhaps a few others), without running lots of forests. By running Fireball over Rolling Thunder, I think I can get away with a 35 land base running single copies of Forest, Mountain and Plains and still have as many green sources, basics and even more blue and black sources than the lists pushing 40-ish lands. There will also be about 10 fetch/ramp cards and of course lots of blue/black draw as well. I don't have time to present an exact list yet, but I thought I'd check with you other dreamcrushers first what you think about the idea, potential weaknesses and how they can be amended.
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So, for my next Pauper project, I'm thinking of actually building this deck I'm starting with the mana base, as I think it is the biggest "problem" (or where there's most room for innovation) in the current list.
Most pauper lists start with 40 lands and trim down to 35-ish while adding 5-10 ramp spells and 5-10 draw spells. For some reason, this deck doesn't. It's not due to curve reasons - the mana demands of this deck isn't greater than most pauper decks. This leaves color fixing. The problem though is that the deck uses green for color fixing, forcing it to add lots of forests so it can play lots of green color fixers/ramp, without much use for green mana outside of color fixing. In this manner, about a dozen slots go to waste IMO, that could have been valuable business spells.
My solution to this problem is basically a single card: Traumatic Visions. If we can tap into the power of this deck's 10-or-so tutors for non-green mana fixing, we don't really need the heavy green stuff nor the forests to back them up. This means more blue and black mana for us, and better consistency, while still being able to assemble all colors by turn 5-6. We can already transmute for Darksteel Ingot with the 3 CMC tutors, and for Expedition Map (or Wayfarer's Bauble) with Dizzy Spell (which I will run, along with Skred, Reclaim, Mystic Remora and others). Adding Traumatic Visions puts Merchant Scroll on-line, but also adds all the 2 CMC transmuters that tutor for Merchant Scroll as a color fixing option (Armillary Sphere is a more direct path, but I haven't decided on it yet). It's also possible to get via Brainspoil and Mystical Teachings.
My secondary solution is to include the Golgari and Simic guildgates, as well as the 2 green cyclers. In this manner, we get 4 more green sources to motivate a handfull or so of the best green ramp/fetch spells (Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Far Wanderings, Sakura Tribe-Elder and perhaps a few others), without running lots of forests. By running Fireball over Rolling Thunder, I think I can get away with a 35 land base running single copies of Forest, Mountain and Plains and still have as many green sources, basics and even more blue and black sources than the lists pushing 40-ish lands. There will also be about 10 fetch/ramp cards and of course lots of blue/black draw as well. I don't have time to present an exact list yet, but I thought I'd check with you other dreamcrushers first what you think about the idea, potential weaknesses and how they can be amended.
The thing that jumps to mind right now is that running single copies of basics is asking for trouble as long as Strip Mine is a thing. You sometimes need to get a mountain with one in your grave and Cultivate in hand.
Another problem that I see is that your cards do not provide card advantage. Cultivate/Reach/Wanderings pull you ahead in cards, something this deck really needs. I also love running the full 40 since recurring a counterspell every turn and being able to cast it costs a ton of mana. Missing a land drop in the first ~15 turns is not desirable, at least with my playstyle. The Forest count in unfortunate, but you have lots of colorless costs to pay anyway.
The idea is interesting, and may be superior, but these are the potential problems that I see right away.
I tend to agree with Overheat points, green provides ramp and CA. And at least 2 mountains and 2 plains doesn't hurt either. I put Panoramas in my base land so I don't get hurt by 10 CITP Gates and get colorless mana right away.
@urdjur, please provide your list so we can see what you do with the remaining slots. I play 39 lands, no 'd0su's packages' so I can try cool things like Darksteel Pendant and Spore Frog.
The thing that jumps to mind right now is that running single copies of basics is asking for trouble as long as Strip Mine is a thing. You sometimes need to get a mountain with one in your grave and Cultivate in hand.
A valid point. However, I probably don't need to find a Mountain with Cultivate specifically (though in that situation, it might be the most convenient option) - it's more a question of finding any red source. So let's say they've stripped my gold lands and basic mountain and I need to Fireball them and have Cultivate. Going for the Mountain is fastest but requires me to run three more off-color basics (Mountain, Plains, Forest) only to handle a rather narrow scenario optimally. I could also tutor for Expedition Map, Reclaim or Darksteel Relic.
I also intend to reduce my depency on off-color sources by running Fireball over Rolling Thunder, and running enough mono-black removal for early survival. Having said that, it would probably be easy to just include extra off-color basics if needed since I won't be running many guildgates or any artifact lands. But if d0su can manage with singletons while running Rolling Thunder and without Expedition Map, I think I will be OK. (See EDIT below - I spoke too soon and you are right).
Another problem that I see is that your cards do not provide card advantage. Cultivate/Reach/Wanderings pull you ahead in cards, something this deck really needs.
Oh, I'm definetely running those. I'm not saying "do not run green ramp", I'm saying don't go overboard. More specifically, I'm trying to stay withing these parameters:
*Total amount of dedicated land ramp/fetch = 10
*Land count = 35
*Green land ramp/fetch = the number of green sources in excess of white or red sources (assuming a similar number of actual business spells in the off colors)
*The number of green sources in excess of white or red sources should not come from lazily adding forests, but from clever and flexible design of the mana base
I also love running the full 40 since recurring a counterspell every turn and being able to cast it costs a ton of mana. Missing a land drop in the first ~15 turns is not desirable, at least with my playstyle. The Forest count in unfortunate, but you have lots of colorless costs to pay anyway.
I agree with making land drops, however my experience from Mistmeadow Witch tells me that MOAR lands is a poor solution. If you want to make your first 15 land drops, playing 35 or 40 lands will not matter much. What matters is if you can chain draw yourself into more land/ramp/draw/tutors so that you get to draw 2-3 cards/turn on average. For instance, it's typically better to play Foresee than land #36.
The idea is interesting, and may be superior, but these are the potential problems that I see right away.
Thanks for the feedback - it made me think a lot and make a few changes to my plans for added resiliency.
@urdjur, please provide your list so we can see what you do with the remaining slots.
Yes, good idea It's not finished yet, but I'm think I'm 95% decided on the "shell", that is lands + draw/ramp/tutor/recursion. Actual business spells will be added later when I see how many slots an "optimum" (from my perspective) shell will leave me. Here it is, please tell me what you think:
That's 77 cards, making room for 22 additional business spells + commander (the snow-covered lands is in anticipation of Skred, though I'm not completely decided yet). What you see above is all there is, so if a staple is missing from a category I probably don't intend to play it. Some notable omissions:
Farhaven Elf + Yavimaya Elder: I am making cuts to green ramp/fetch and these are the worst IMO.
Gravedigger + Cadaver Imp: I play Elven Cache and Urborg Uprising instead. I intend to run more instant speed removal (and Khalni Garden) to compensate for their defensive value.
Now, to the list. The "green flexibility" land package is a way to increase the early number of green sources without having to play more forests. Counting only lands and non-green ramp/fetch, the list runs 18 early green sources. However, 9 out of 11 tutors can find a non-green ramp/fetch card, increasing this to 27 sources in a pinch, which should let you play a turn 5 CoA almost all the time if you wanted to. The number of red and white sources is the same, though they rely of course on the green ramp for this.
Khalni Garden and Haunted Fengraf are non-standard options, but I think their small utility is underestimated. Too many dedicated GY recursion spells means more dead cards in your opener, so I try to keep the package as flexible as possible and then Fengraf makes sense. The garden produces a token which helps with early defense or forms an engine with Ghostly Flicker.
The rest should probably be pretty standard stuff, except Altar's Reap. I don't understand why this isn't on any of the lists in the OP. It's a cheap draw spell AND an uncounterable sacrifice outlet rolled into one. If that doesn't make it the best draw spell in this deck, it at least puts it in the same ball park as Brainstorm, Impulse and Forbidden Alchemy.
Looking forward to your comments!
EDIT: Re-examining d0su's list, I note that he actually runs both off-color cyclers AND artifact lands, so maybe running just single copies of off-color basics IS too ballsy if I exclude those. Hence, I went:
-2 Swamp
-1 Island
+1 Forest, Mountains and Plains
EDIT 2: Added Soul Manipulation to the recursion package.
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Altar's Reap cannot be cast whenever you want, which is a legitimate downside. Not being able to draw cards with it when you have nothing/only have Child but don't want to blow up the board can be a problem in my experience. It is uncounterable sacrifice, but it is horrific in your opener, for example.
Haunted Fengraf- Dat colorless land.
Khalani Garden- CIPT lands get worse as you add more, especially in this already slow deck.
Wizard package- I heartily approve. I use Sea Gate Oracle to turn Aethermage into a card if needed, and he is good with Ghostly Flicker (which isn't in your list even though you mentioned it).
I'll give Altar's Reap, Haunted Fengraf and Khalni Garden some extra thought and get back on those
Wizard package- I heartily approve. I use Sea Gate Oracle to turn Aethermage into a card if needed, and he is good with Ghostly Flicker (which isn't in your list even though you mentioned it).
Sea Gate Oracle is in there, in the card draw section. Like I said, that was just the "shell" part - actual business spells and bounce/blink like Capsize and Flicker weren't in the package. But I've been busy, so here they come!
So that's the 23 business spells I've narrowed it down to thus far. I've also considered but so far decided against:
Unmake and Snakeform: Alternatives to Oblivion Ring/Faceless Butcher, but not as castable, verstaile and abusable.
Rend Flesh, Eyeblight's Ending, Murder: More instant speed removal. Not really needed and worse than above alternatives.
Reality Acid: Kinda like an extra ORing for handling indestructible stuff with CoA or abuse with bounce. Also nukes lands. Could be run, but I wanted the aura-based reanimation package over more removal.
Counters: Also considered Condescend, Arcane Denial and Memory Lapse but I found them lacking and went with Rewind instead, which I really like in a Ghostly Flicker lock and with the many instants in general.
Thoughts and suggestions are very welcome. I'll try to put together a more complete, finalized list when I've taken your feedback on this into account
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I have a question. My play group allows commons and uncommons in the deck itself. So my question is I love the build you have here, what would your build be if you could use commons and uncommons? Everytime I change cards around I screw things up, so what would you change? Thank you
Unmake is really hard to cast. But it answers Ulamog or Spearbreaker Behemoth, and unlike O-Ring, it does it permanently. I used to play O-Ring, but it is a nombo with Child. Faceless Butcher is similar.
Snakeform is harder to use, but it has good art, so meh. Honestly though, it stops dying triggers and messes up combat.
Fireball? Kaervek's Torch is usually better, unless you use it to kill multiple creatures often.
Let us know how the aura package works.
@Nantuko-This has been asked several times throughout the thread, read through it from a decent selection of uncommons.
Unmake is really hard to cast. But it answers Ulamog or Spearbreaker Behemoth, and unlike O-Ring, it does it permanently. I used to play O-Ring, but it is a nombo with Child. Faceless Butcher is similar.
I disagree about the nonbo. The primary use for these temporary exilers is to kill commanders. In my experience, people will move their commander to the command zone 99% of the time when faced with these cards, because they don't want to be at your mercy or wait for Child to explode. If they keep it under there, you can really make them regret it and teach them not to do it again!
The secondary use is to kill indestructable stuff, mostly creatures. This can be done permanently by responding to the trigger (sacrifice, bounce etc.) Yes, sometimes this will be costly or cause card disadvantage, but we're talking fringe situations here in a deck with tons of card advantage already. Besides, bounce, edict and countering are other answers to these things so it's not like you have to rely on Capsize + ORing to handle Ulamog.
The THIRD use actually makes these cards into a combo with Child, because you can use them to protect your own ETB stuff. Consider ORing on your Mnemonic Wall and then Devour Flesh on Child, getting back Devour Flesh and ending your turn with a 0/4 wall in play. That makes it almost futile to attack you until you can set up Child again, and after that even more so...
Snakeform is harder to use, but it has good art, so meh. Honestly though, it stops dying triggers and messes up combat.
It's a good card, but such a narrow answer. You basically need Ulamog to attack to put it to good use and then the annihilator trigger is already on the stack Exiling also stops dying triggers but it's usually a moot point since any self respecting deck relying on dying triggers should have reusable instant speed sac outlets anyway. Like Unmake, I think this is a good card but it takes up a deck slot without really solving any new problems.
Fireball? Kaervek's Torch is usually better, unless you use it to kill multiple creatures often.
Good thinking. When making the deck, I thought Rolling Thunder/Fireball were included to serve as a finisher 50% of the time and as a weenie sweeper the other 50%. Haha. Not so in a deck that lets you sweep EVERYTHING at instant speed. The choice between Thunder/Torch is then basically just if you have enough goodies to support Dizzy Spell (I do).
Let us know how the aura package works.
EXCELLENT! Seriously, I cannot recommend it enough. I feel like the aura package is the fruit of my labor working with this deck's mana base - by streamlining it without really removing colored sources or consistency, I've vacated a handfull of slots to run these awesome cards without cutting back on draw or answers!
The ability of the auras to protect/reuse your own dudes (including Child) through Child explosions is only their weakest applications. They really shine when playing the deck in a full-power meta, since almost EVERY threat in normal EDH is bigger/scarier than ANY threat in PDH.
Imagine being able to run three Bribery costing 3 mana and having the added benefit of letting you keep the threat you just stole after blowing up one of the best sweepers in the game which happens to be your general. Then add a recursion package that ensures your opponent isn't getting his monster back any time soon, and if he plays a bigger monster you may be inclined to steal that instead, or simply blow up Child again to kill it while keeping his first monster.
These cards are like Child of Alara itself in that they let you play with the big boys. Creature bombs worthy of this deck's power simply do not exist in Pauper, but these auras are even better since they scale throughout the game and always let you keep the best guy after blowing up Alara - and in the worst case scenario, that's Alara Oh, and did I mention how they stop recursion as a viable recovery option?
I'm still shuffling around a handful of slots in the deck, but I'll get back with an updated decklist shortly.
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I might have to try one or two to see how they work in my meta before going all in. Shade's Form seems to be the best as long as politics is a thing.
The true power of Snakeform is drawing a card. We have nice recursion, but if you have not got anything good, then recurring that garbage again won't help you. Getting new cards helps find what you needs, especially on a removal spell. I will admit that I am nostalgic, as Snakeform was the first instant ever cast against me in Magic, and Unmake is the first instant I ever cast. I do like the mental relief of exiling a powerful card, instead of O-Ringing it.
A side note here- Since this deck takes quite a bit of thought on how to play, I like cards that provide some relief in that area. Getting to see new cards makes it easier, instead of looking at the same art for two hours. Every draw provides a small amount of pleasure for me, so I am attracted to cards that let me do just that. When you play long games at 2 AM, you want a different sort of deck.
Back on topic- I am curious about the political implications of auras, since slapping False Demise on Consecrated Sphinx doesn't make many friends.
Okay, so I have a few observations on my card choices that I'd like to share with you other dreamcrushers and get some opinions on:
Skred: This isn't really working that well for me. It's hard to use as your first CoA kill spell, and later when you have 6+ snow lands in play, the R cost isn't really that much better than your 2-3 CMC non red outs. I put it in mainly as a way to get more out of Dizzy Spell, but I'm rather disappointed with the 1 CMC transmute targets as a whole. I don't have much blue in my meta, but if I decide to keep the Dizzy Spell (for Kaervek's Torch over Rolling Thunder), I might include REB/Pyroblast instead of Skred. Unfortunately, there are no good instant speed blue or black sac outlets at 1 mana.
Oblivion Ring: I included this as a catch-all against indestructible non-creatures, and as an out against Humility. However, it's bad in this capacity when you don't have Capsize (there are many more cards for abusing Faceless Butcher, so that's a different story) since CoA blows it up. I've been looking at Reality Acid instead. It has the same abuse potential with Capsize and even more so since it hits lands too. It also have better CoA synergy, essentially "priming" indestructible targets before she explodes. It can also slowly kill CoA on its own, which ORing can't. Two things make me hesitate though:
1) It's a more useless than ORing on its own, and a more narrow tutor target (basically never tutored for without something indestructible on the board, unless you need to LD while blowing up CoA)
2) It means I'll have to run Dismantling Blow over Qasali Pridemage to still have a feasible out against Humility. Not sure which is the better card though, so this might not be a problem.
Expedition Map: This should probably be Reap and Sow. It costs 1 more but puts the land into play untapped, so the total net cost is the same. It also ramps and has added LD utility. This is exactly why I don't like Dizzy Spell - because it makes me want to run inferior cards just so I can add value to the tutor. OTOH, Kaervak's Torch *is* a lot better than Rolling Thunder for this deck IMO. And colorless manafixing is what makes my build work, so...
Mystic Remora and Rhystic Study: I'm taking a hard look at my draw package and these are probably the worst/most unreliable, despite running Auramancer (which may well be a mistake in itself - despite creature theft auras). I think Ponder and Preordain would really shine in my build since it's so lean on green and forests. Another card I've looked at is Wordly Counsel, which looks great considering I'm already running Intuition. I think Deep Analysis would be the one to go for that one. If I need to transmute for a 4 CMC draw spell, I always pick Foresee. DA is mostly good for discarding, and even then I find it pales in comparison to Altar's Reap (but I know the latter is a matter of controversy for some).
Reclaim: Another card for the Dizzy Spell package, that ends up being a worse Elven Cache when actually tutored for. I'm not sure this is better than even Raise Dead, especially if Cache is already run as a way to get back a Mountain or aura. Something I have considered instead (especially if Dizzy Spell stays for Torch) is Undying Evil. That has gotta be the best CoA recursion target at 1 CMC in PDH (despite its timing limitations).
Another card I'm strongly considering is Harrow. Why don't I see this in lists more? It's instant speed (fetches with Teachings) and its effective cost is 1 since the lands ETB untapped. It doesn't come with Cultivate's/Kodama's CA, but at 2 mana cheaper, who cares - it still fixes two colors which is awesome. I'm considering it over Krosan Tusker (or possibly in addition to, but I'm trying to keep the green fixing to a minimum).
All thoughts on these cards are very appreciated as it will help me greatly in finalizing my list!
EDIT: What do you think about Tragic Slip? Hasn't been mentioned in the thread before I think, but I'd say it has at least as much potential as Skred, and it's on color.
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I think you are missing the point of Dizzy Spell. For me, it is there for one reason-to get REB or Pyro. Getting anything else is rare, maybe 1/10 times or so.
I have been considering cutting Rhystic Study forever as well, because I never tutor for it and it isn't too good late game.
Another meh for Rhystic Study. Seriously thinking about replacing it and 1 land (Island or a Panorama, most probably) with Vedalken Aethermage (losing my vanilla build but oh well, I need to abuse my wizards) and Divination (ok 2-for-1, sucks only in early game, can be abused with Ghostly Flicker, etc) or Tragic Slip (with some sac creature features, it's a very nice CoA killer IMO).
I dig Undying Evil but I don't like Dizzy Spell. Maybe I have to change my mind about this. Having things like REB and Pyroblast and some more 1-cmc threats in my deck it might be good enough... oh the prejudice
If I keep my main CMC at 2.5 or less most probably I'll cut some more lands (making it 37-38 total) and test some tweaks. Urdjur let me greedy about deck space used by lands. This might be the best thought about the deck - it floods for me sometimes....
That settles that at least - I'm getting rid of Rhystic Study.
I think you are missing the point of Dizzy Spell. For me, it is there for one reason-to get REB or Pyro. Getting anything else is rare, maybe 1/10 times or so.
And the reason you're getting REB/Pyro is to off CoA? Or to cover your plays against counters? I've been getting Skred to kill CoA instead, which has been working so-so as reported above, and hesitating to include REB/Pyro due to having less blue in my meta. However, if you're in a blue meta and still mostly use them to kill CoA, I might reconsider. My main reason to run Dizzy Spell is to avoid having your red X-spell stuck in your last cards. That alone isn't reason enough to run it though, so I try to get more value out of it.
The more I think about it, the more I like Tragic Slip and Undying Evil. I think they will be great with cards like Sakura-Tribe Elder and Mulldrifter. Might even go with Alexandre's idea and include Spore Frog and Kami of False Hope if I go with that package.
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That settles that at least - I'm getting rid of Rhystic Study.
And the reason you're getting REB/Pyro is to off CoA? Or to cover your plays against counters? I've been getting Skred to kill CoA instead, which has been working so-so as reported above, and hesitating to include REB/Pyro due to having less blue in my meta. However, if you're in a blue meta and still mostly use them to kill CoA, I might reconsider. My main reason to run Dizzy Spell is to avoid having your red X-spell stuck in your last cards. That alone isn't reason enough to run it though, so I try to get more value out of it.
The more I think about it, the more I like Tragic Slip and Undying Evil. I think they will be great with cards like Sakura-Tribe Elder and Mulldrifter. Might even go with Alexandre's idea and include Spore Frog and Kami of False Hope if I go with that package.
The beauty of the two spells is their flexibility. If you are in meta without heavy blue, then winning is a complete and utter joke. After about turn 10 or so, nobody can stand up to you at all. The spells kill Child a fair amount, but having a counterspell/vindicate split card for one mana is useful as well.
Time to find a replacement for Rhystic Study, tough since I am playing almost every draw spell anyway, maybe Shade's Form in order to try it out.
Faceless Butcher: Discussed earlier in the thread but got cut for some reason. Great synergy with Capsize, Altar's Reap and Ghostly Flicker, can kill indestructible stuff as you blow up CoA at instant speed or save a dude from the blast.
Kami of False Hope + Spore Frog: Surviving to the mid game is a top priority and these guys help. Also forms a hard to disrupt immunity with Grim Harvest/Disturbed Burial and has synergy with Tragic Slip.
Scrivener: "Instants only" is still 25% of the deck and getting 2 recursion wizards in play with Ghostly Flicker in the deck is just too good to pass up, so I max out on instant competent recursion bears.
False Demise + Shade's Form + Unhallowed Pact: I've already explained why I think these are great (see above). Of course, since they recur CoA a lot of the time, I cut back on other forms of recursion.
Elven Cache: To recur a countered Freed from the Real or off color mana source. Mostly recurs other stuff though, but it's good insurance. My only 4 CMC recursion spell (I try to have at least one at each CMC and I value this over Gravedigger).
Last Rites: To interact with fast combo. I think it's a good strategy for this deck to run cards that may not be that advantageous on their own, if they allow the deck to handle situations that it otherwise couldn't.
Reap and Sow: This replaces Expedition Map/Nihil Spellbomb for the GY hate slot, it replaces Wrecking Ball for LD utility (often just used to kill CoA anyway, and much too expensive for that use), it ramps (!) and it provides 2-for-1 potential! I think more lists should play this card - it saves valuable deck space.
Revoke Existence: As with Last Rites, this could be something cooler like Dismantling Blow, but no other disenchant effect solves problems for the deck like this single card (darksteel stuff for instance). I suck it up and play it.
Urborg Uprising: My recursion spell at 5 CMC (Brainspoil) and it's a great one. I think it's probably as strong as Rush of Knowledge at the same CMC.
Altar's Reap: I have enough card draw to not have to play this early and uncounterable sac at instant speed is great. I've had no issue with this at all and think more should play it - definetely before Diviniation or some such.
Harrow: Manafixes two colors and ramps for a net cost of one green mana. And it is an instant (very few ramp spells are) so you now have a Teachings target too. I think more people should play this over stuff like Farhaven Elf.
Pyroblast + Red Elemental Blast: While I only have about 1/3 blue in my meta, this follows the philosophy of Revoke Existence/Last Rites/Spore Frog. If blue is one of the few threats this deck faces, why not run anti-blue sac outlets for CoA to make you more unstoppable?
Rewind: I think I'm the only one playing this counter. With 2 recursion bears and ghostly flicker, this lets you counter a spell for 3 mana (as long as you keep at least 4 open) as many times as you like. Spend 9 mana, counter 3 spells - repeat next turn. With 25% of the deck being instants, sitting with mana open is not a problem, plus you get it all back to play more instants. Run it!
Tragic Slip: My answer to indestructible creatures together with butcher, devour flesh and ye olde Capsize + counter.
Undying Evil: My 1 CMC CoA recursion and the most efficient one in the deck by far - good synergy also with evoke and sac dudes.
Worldly Counsel: Impulse #2, I picked this over Deep Analysis which was often a let down to me.
Khalni Garden: I let this stay (but removed Haunted Fengraf) mainly because I have so few Ghostly Flicker targets and producing tokens for 3 each turn can be useful for chumping. Also provides that key early defense. The ETB tapped issue isn't that great since I'm only running 4 total guildgates + cyclers.
I've discussed the mana base before, so I won't reiterate that here. Looking forward to your comments!
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Faceless Butcher: I like Cavern Harpy better. Cheaper and auto-reusable. Makes sense in your build though.
Kami of False Hope + Spore Frog: Well you know, I like the original idea can put both critters but I will test only the Frog for now.
Scrivener: Makes sense, completely. I hate his 5-cmc but it can be worth a try. Replacing what is the question. Will think about it in the near future...
False Demise + Shade's Form + Unhallowed Pact: I prefer the vanilla recursions, but these are cool options.
Elven Cache: Dunno, Gravedigger is better colored and it's a creature. And costs 2GG, dangerous particularly in your lightly green mana sources. Won't Reclaim do?
Last Rites: No political, kills CA. Don't like.
Reap and Sow: good points, but I prefer cheaper spells. In your build this is better, I guess.
Revoke Existence: I prefer Qasali Pridemage. More abuse with reanimate spells. It beats. But this exiles stuff. It's a good tradeoff to think about.
Urborg Uprising: nice but expensive to cast, I think Reaping the Graves is better. Both don't fit right now in my deck, but who knows?
Altar's Reap: Don't like.
Harrow: Can your 35-land build be that aggresive on ramp? If so, go ahead. It's risky but everything you said is true.
Pyroblast + Red Elemental Blast: Nuff said, it's dat cool.
Rewind: This is the first one I'd try. Looks a bit situational to be a combo in itself though (very late game to have all that mana available, plus Flicker and dudes). Kudos for this one anyway.
Tragic Slip: Was in previous builds of mine, now with Dizzy Spell and sac dorks it's amazing.
Undying Evil: Now we're talking - cheap 'n' good. Kudos again
Worldly Counsel: Meh so far IMO.
Khalni Garden: Double meh, sorry.
Final feedback, on the mana base: I still think you can't run less than 35 lands in this deck (so you're on the edge), and still you play some ETB lands, Harrow, and your build looks expensive to cast (didn't make or see the stats). If you feel you don't need to rethink something here that's cool, but that's my feeling.
Edit 1: changed my deck replacing Ambush Viper with Winged Coatl - flying must help. Better than Snakeform IMO and not much more difficult to cast. I lose CA but I gain reuse with GY recurs. And the other creature actually dies, which must be good!
Edit 2: played 1v1 with my current deck against a boy with a (non-Pauper, of course, lol) RGW deck based on token generation, elves/ramp and fatties. He was going to kill me with an infinite Fireball on turn 6 but I cracked my CoA first. Then I abused his usage (5-6 times, even using dat Pyroblast as trigger) and locked him with Capsize/Archaeomancer/Soul Manipulation and beat him till he was 8 (I was like 48) and used Rolling Thunder to save some time. Some thoughts: a) Darksteel Pendant is my SDT for this deck, seriously. b) Rest of the Weary looks meh, if it continues like that I will put Kami of False Hope instead. c) not bad for a deck costing about as much as a good shield for it.
I don't see it in Overheat's list on page 1 or page 21, which is why I asked.
Bouncelands are a tempo blowout in a land where every deck has Strip Mine AND Tectonic Edge. Also, I am discarding down to 7 multiple times per game already, so the extra card might just be discarded anyway.
Trinket Mage without artifact lands is just meh. it gets Nihil Spellbomb or somesuch, nothing else really. Sadly, most other artifacts would only be run because of Trinket Mage, since they are less efficient than their spell-based counterparts. I prefer Sea Gate Oracle, because he gets new cards in my hand, including lands that are not killed by Disk/Vengeance.
Mass Graveyard hate? You mean like Nihil? Most cards in a graveyard do not matter, so you rely on Shred Memory for the specific ones. My version is about getting to inevitability as soon as possible, with as few cards that are not useful all the time as possible. Nihil early is just a cycler for no gain, and late game it is OK, but sometimes it is not great, instead of being a spell I always want. When you play so much mana, you can't afford to have your spells be bad too.
Ghostly Flicker and Mind Extraction are so powerful that you make exceptions, but value spells that are not always "on" are sketchy. Nobody can out-graveyard you anyway.
Trancer- Also, Trinket Mage isn't ramp.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
My current list:
5 Child of Alara
Sac Outlets (9)
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sidisi's Faithful
2 Costly Plunder
2 Devour Flesh
2 Terminate
3 Angelic Purge
3 Mind Extraction
7 Wretched Gryff
Tutors (11)
1 Dizzy Spell
2 Dimir Infiltrator
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Shred Memory
2 Vedalken Aethermage
3 Drift of Phantasms
3 Perplex
4 Dimir House Guard
4 Mystical Teachings
5 Brainspoil
Combo/Other (9)
2 Cloud of Faeries
2 Rolling Thunder
3 Capsize
3 Displace
3 Ghostly Flicker
4 Archaeomancer
5 Izzet Chronarch
5 Salvager of Secrets
5 Peregrine Drake
1 Spore Frog
2 Counterspell
3 Faerie Trickery
3 Unmake
Dig/Draw (10)
1 Brainstorm
1 Preordain
2 Night's Whisper
3 Read the Bones
3 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Secrets of the Golden City
4 Deep Analysis
4 Foresee
5 Mulldrifter
7 Treasure Cruise
Recursion (7)
1 Undying Evil
2 Disturbed Burial
2 Grim Harvest
2 Evolution Charm
3 Cadaver Imp
3 Soul Manipulation
4 Breath of Life
Ramp (10)
1 Crop Rotation
1 Expedition Map
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
3 Cultivate
3 Darksteel Ingot
3 Far Wanderings
3 Kodama's Reach
4 Reap and Sow
5 Traumatic Visions
1 Command Tower
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Gateway Plaza
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Naya Panorama
1 Ash Barrens
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Dismal Backwater
1 Halimar Depths
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mortuary Mire
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Simic Growth Chamber
7 Island
5 Swamp
4 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Plains
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
I think the benefit with Cavern Harpy is that it's an engine unto itself, though it can't save anything at instant speed (except itself). Then again, that's what GY recursion is for.
Also, Mystic Speculation is an uncommon.
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@urdjur, thank you too. Dammit, I didn't see it (the uncommon)... will put the lion reaplacing it, tune the lands accordingly. About the Kami, will take one and put it in my maybeboard. Fog effects are not as cool as 'come into play' ones (which Harpy and Lion allow).
Edit1: My deck was edited.
Edit2: I tried to put the most relevant Gates (3 main colors) and 4 Panoramas (only RW didn't do it), so no utility lands. The only one I'm tempted to put is Haunted Fengraf. It's in my maybeboard with urdjur's Kami of False Hope. Any other ideas?
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Most pauper lists start with 40 lands and trim down to 35-ish while adding 5-10 ramp spells and 5-10 draw spells. For some reason, this deck doesn't. It's not due to curve reasons - the mana demands of this deck isn't greater than most pauper decks. This leaves color fixing. The problem though is that the deck uses green for color fixing, forcing it to add lots of forests so it can play lots of green color fixers/ramp, without much use for green mana outside of color fixing. In this manner, about a dozen slots go to waste IMO, that could have been valuable business spells.
My solution to this problem is basically a single card: Traumatic Visions. If we can tap into the power of this deck's 10-or-so tutors for non-green mana fixing, we don't really need the heavy green stuff nor the forests to back them up. This means more blue and black mana for us, and better consistency, while still being able to assemble all colors by turn 5-6. We can already transmute for Darksteel Ingot with the 3 CMC tutors, and for Expedition Map (or Wayfarer's Bauble) with Dizzy Spell (which I will run, along with Skred, Reclaim, Mystic Remora and others). Adding Traumatic Visions puts Merchant Scroll on-line, but also adds all the 2 CMC transmuters that tutor for Merchant Scroll as a color fixing option (Armillary Sphere is a more direct path, but I haven't decided on it yet). It's also possible to get via Brainspoil and Mystical Teachings.
My secondary solution is to include the Golgari and Simic guildgates, as well as the 2 green cyclers. In this manner, we get 4 more green sources to motivate a handfull or so of the best green ramp/fetch spells (Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Far Wanderings, Sakura Tribe-Elder and perhaps a few others), without running lots of forests. By running Fireball over Rolling Thunder, I think I can get away with a 35 land base running single copies of Forest, Mountain and Plains and still have as many green sources, basics and even more blue and black sources than the lists pushing 40-ish lands. There will also be about 10 fetch/ramp cards and of course lots of blue/black draw as well. I don't have time to present an exact list yet, but I thought I'd check with you other dreamcrushers first what you think about the idea, potential weaknesses and how they can be amended.
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The thing that jumps to mind right now is that running single copies of basics is asking for trouble as long as Strip Mine is a thing. You sometimes need to get a mountain with one in your grave and Cultivate in hand.
Another problem that I see is that your cards do not provide card advantage. Cultivate/Reach/Wanderings pull you ahead in cards, something this deck really needs. I also love running the full 40 since recurring a counterspell every turn and being able to cast it costs a ton of mana. Missing a land drop in the first ~15 turns is not desirable, at least with my playstyle. The Forest count in unfortunate, but you have lots of colorless costs to pay anyway.
The idea is interesting, and may be superior, but these are the potential problems that I see right away.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
@urdjur, please provide your list so we can see what you do with the remaining slots. I play 39 lands, no 'd0su's packages' so I can try cool things like Darksteel Pendant and Spore Frog.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
A valid point. However, I probably don't need to find a Mountain with Cultivate specifically (though in that situation, it might be the most convenient option) - it's more a question of finding any red source. So let's say they've stripped my gold lands and basic mountain and I need to Fireball them and have Cultivate. Going for the Mountain is fastest but requires me to run three more off-color basics (Mountain, Plains, Forest) only to handle a rather narrow scenario optimally. I could also tutor for Expedition Map, Reclaim or Darksteel Relic.
I also intend to reduce my depency on off-color sources by running Fireball over Rolling Thunder, and running enough mono-black removal for early survival.
Having said that, it would probably be easy to just include extra off-color basics if needed since I won't be running many guildgates or any artifact lands. But if d0su can manage with singletons while running Rolling Thunder and without Expedition Map, I think I will be OK.(See EDIT below - I spoke too soon and you are right).Oh, I'm definetely running those. I'm not saying "do not run green ramp", I'm saying don't go overboard. More specifically, I'm trying to stay withing these parameters:
*Total amount of dedicated land ramp/fetch = 10
*Land count = 35
*Green land ramp/fetch = the number of green sources in excess of white or red sources (assuming a similar number of actual business spells in the off colors)
*The number of green sources in excess of white or red sources should not come from lazily adding forests, but from clever and flexible design of the mana base
I agree with making land drops, however my experience from Mistmeadow Witch tells me that MOAR lands is a poor solution. If you want to make your first 15 land drops, playing 35 or 40 lands will not matter much. What matters is if you can chain draw yourself into more land/ramp/draw/tutors so that you get to draw 2-3 cards/turn on average. For instance, it's typically better to play Foresee than land #36.
Thanks for the feedback - it made me think a lot and make a few changes to my plans for added resiliency.
Yes, good idea It's not finished yet, but I'm think I'm 95% decided on the "shell", that is lands + draw/ramp/tutor/recursion. Actual business spells will be added later when I see how many slots an "optimum" (from my perspective) shell will leave me. Here it is, please tell me what you think:
//Multi (6)
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Command Tower
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguid Promenade
1 Shimmering Grotto
1 Halimar Depths
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Khalni Garden
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Bant Panorama
1 Jund Panorama
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Simic Guildgate
1 Slippery Karst
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Snow-covered Forest
2 Snow-covered Mountain
2 Snow-covered Plains
7 Snow-covered Island
6 Snow-covered Swamp
//Non-green (4)
1 Expedition Map
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
3 Darksteel Ingot
5 Traumatic Visions
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
2 Evolution Charm
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Cultivate
3 Far Wanderings
7 Krosan Tusker
TUTORING (11)
//transmute (8)
1 Dizzy Spell
2 Dimir Infiltrator
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Shred Memory
3 Drift of Phantasms
3 Perplex
4 Dimir House Guard
5 Brainspoil
4 Mystical Teachings
2 Vedalken Aethermage
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Altar's Reap
1 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
3 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Mystic Remora
3 Rhystic Study
3 Sea Gate Oracle
5 Mulldrifter
5 Rush of Knowledge
4 Deep Analysis
4 Foresee
RECURSION (10)
2 Disturbed Burial
2 Grim Harvest
3 Reaping the Graves
5 Urborg Uprising
3 Soul Manipulation
1 Reclaim
4 Elven Cache
4 Archaeomancer
5 Izzet Chronarch
5 Mnemonic Wall
That's 77 cards, making room for 22 additional business spells + commander (the snow-covered lands is in anticipation of Skred, though I'm not completely decided yet). What you see above is all there is, so if a staple is missing from a category I probably don't intend to play it. Some notable omissions:
Farhaven Elf + Yavimaya Elder: I am making cuts to green ramp/fetch and these are the worst IMO.
Gravedigger + Cadaver Imp: I play Elven Cache and Urborg Uprising instead. I intend to run more instant speed removal (and Khalni Garden) to compensate for their defensive value.
Now, to the list. The "green flexibility" land package is a way to increase the early number of green sources without having to play more forests. Counting only lands and non-green ramp/fetch, the list runs 18 early green sources. However, 9 out of 11 tutors can find a non-green ramp/fetch card, increasing this to 27 sources in a pinch, which should let you play a turn 5 CoA almost all the time if you wanted to. The number of red and white sources is the same, though they rely of course on the green ramp for this.
Khalni Garden and Haunted Fengraf are non-standard options, but I think their small utility is underestimated. Too many dedicated GY recursion spells means more dead cards in your opener, so I try to keep the package as flexible as possible and then Fengraf makes sense. The garden produces a token which helps with early defense or forms an engine with Ghostly Flicker.
The rest should probably be pretty standard stuff, except Altar's Reap. I don't understand why this isn't on any of the lists in the OP. It's a cheap draw spell AND an uncounterable sacrifice outlet rolled into one. If that doesn't make it the best draw spell in this deck, it at least puts it in the same ball park as Brainstorm, Impulse and Forbidden Alchemy.
Looking forward to your comments!
EDIT: Re-examining d0su's list, I note that he actually runs both off-color cyclers AND artifact lands, so maybe running just single copies of off-color basics IS too ballsy if I exclude those. Hence, I went:
-2 Swamp
-1 Island
+1 Forest, Mountains and Plains
EDIT 2: Added Soul Manipulation to the recursion package.
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Altar's Reap cannot be cast whenever you want, which is a legitimate downside. Not being able to draw cards with it when you have nothing/only have Child but don't want to blow up the board can be a problem in my experience. It is uncounterable sacrifice, but it is horrific in your opener, for example.
Haunted Fengraf- Dat colorless land.
Khalani Garden- CIPT lands get worse as you add more, especially in this already slow deck.
Wizard package- I heartily approve. I use Sea Gate Oracle to turn Aethermage into a card if needed, and he is good with Ghostly Flicker (which isn't in your list even though you mentioned it).
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Sea Gate Oracle is in there, in the card draw section. Like I said, that was just the "shell" part - actual business spells and bounce/blink like Capsize and Flicker weren't in the package. But I've been busy, so here they come!
1 Capsize
1 Krosan Restorer
1 Freed from the Real
1 Fireball
1 Devour Flesh
1 Terminate
1 Skred
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Wrecking Ball
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Mind Extraction
1 Last Rites
1 Rend Flesh
1 Counterspell
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Rewind
1 Overrule
1 Auramancer
1 False Demise
1 Shade's Form
1 Unhallowed Pact
So that's the 23 business spells I've narrowed it down to thus far. I've also considered but so far decided against:
Unmake and Snakeform: Alternatives to Oblivion Ring/Faceless Butcher, but not as castable, verstaile and abusable.
Rend Flesh, Eyeblight's Ending, Murder: More instant speed removal. Not really needed and worse than above alternatives.
Reality Acid: Kinda like an extra ORing for handling indestructible stuff with CoA or abuse with bounce. Also nukes lands. Could be run, but I wanted the aura-based reanimation package over more removal.
Counters: Also considered Condescend, Arcane Denial and Memory Lapse but I found them lacking and went with Rewind instead, which I really like in a Ghostly Flicker lock and with the many instants in general.
Thoughts and suggestions are very welcome. I'll try to put together a more complete, finalized list when I've taken your feedback on this into account
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Unmake is really hard to cast. But it answers Ulamog or Spearbreaker Behemoth, and unlike O-Ring, it does it permanently. I used to play O-Ring, but it is a nombo with Child. Faceless Butcher is similar.
Snakeform is harder to use, but it has good art, so meh. Honestly though, it stops dying triggers and messes up combat.
Fireball? Kaervek's Torch is usually better, unless you use it to kill multiple creatures often.
Let us know how the aura package works.
@Nantuko-This has been asked several times throughout the thread, read through it from a decent selection of uncommons.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
I disagree about the nonbo. The primary use for these temporary exilers is to kill commanders. In my experience, people will move their commander to the command zone 99% of the time when faced with these cards, because they don't want to be at your mercy or wait for Child to explode. If they keep it under there, you can really make them regret it and teach them not to do it again!
The secondary use is to kill indestructable stuff, mostly creatures. This can be done permanently by responding to the trigger (sacrifice, bounce etc.) Yes, sometimes this will be costly or cause card disadvantage, but we're talking fringe situations here in a deck with tons of card advantage already. Besides, bounce, edict and countering are other answers to these things so it's not like you have to rely on Capsize + ORing to handle Ulamog.
The THIRD use actually makes these cards into a combo with Child, because you can use them to protect your own ETB stuff. Consider ORing on your Mnemonic Wall and then Devour Flesh on Child, getting back Devour Flesh and ending your turn with a 0/4 wall in play. That makes it almost futile to attack you until you can set up Child again, and after that even more so...
It's a good card, but such a narrow answer. You basically need Ulamog to attack to put it to good use and then the annihilator trigger is already on the stack Exiling also stops dying triggers but it's usually a moot point since any self respecting deck relying on dying triggers should have reusable instant speed sac outlets anyway. Like Unmake, I think this is a good card but it takes up a deck slot without really solving any new problems.
Good thinking. When making the deck, I thought Rolling Thunder/Fireball were included to serve as a finisher 50% of the time and as a weenie sweeper the other 50%. Haha. Not so in a deck that lets you sweep EVERYTHING at instant speed. The choice between Thunder/Torch is then basically just if you have enough goodies to support Dizzy Spell (I do).
EXCELLENT! Seriously, I cannot recommend it enough. I feel like the aura package is the fruit of my labor working with this deck's mana base - by streamlining it without really removing colored sources or consistency, I've vacated a handfull of slots to run these awesome cards without cutting back on draw or answers!
The ability of the auras to protect/reuse your own dudes (including Child) through Child explosions is only their weakest applications. They really shine when playing the deck in a full-power meta, since almost EVERY threat in normal EDH is bigger/scarier than ANY threat in PDH.
Imagine being able to run three Bribery costing 3 mana and having the added benefit of letting you keep the threat you just stole after blowing up one of the best sweepers in the game which happens to be your general. Then add a recursion package that ensures your opponent isn't getting his monster back any time soon, and if he plays a bigger monster you may be inclined to steal that instead, or simply blow up Child again to kill it while keeping his first monster.
These cards are like Child of Alara itself in that they let you play with the big boys. Creature bombs worthy of this deck's power simply do not exist in Pauper, but these auras are even better since they scale throughout the game and always let you keep the best guy after blowing up Alara - and in the worst case scenario, that's Alara Oh, and did I mention how they stop recursion as a viable recovery option?
I'm still shuffling around a handful of slots in the deck, but I'll get back with an updated decklist shortly.
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The true power of Snakeform is drawing a card. We have nice recursion, but if you have not got anything good, then recurring that garbage again won't help you. Getting new cards helps find what you needs, especially on a removal spell. I will admit that I am nostalgic, as Snakeform was the first instant ever cast against me in Magic, and Unmake is the first instant I ever cast. I do like the mental relief of exiling a powerful card, instead of O-Ringing it.
A side note here- Since this deck takes quite a bit of thought on how to play, I like cards that provide some relief in that area. Getting to see new cards makes it easier, instead of looking at the same art for two hours. Every draw provides a small amount of pleasure for me, so I am attracted to cards that let me do just that. When you play long games at 2 AM, you want a different sort of deck.
Back on topic- I am curious about the political implications of auras, since slapping False Demise on Consecrated Sphinx doesn't make many friends.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Skred: This isn't really working that well for me. It's hard to use as your first CoA kill spell, and later when you have 6+ snow lands in play, the R cost isn't really that much better than your 2-3 CMC non red outs. I put it in mainly as a way to get more out of Dizzy Spell, but I'm rather disappointed with the 1 CMC transmute targets as a whole. I don't have much blue in my meta, but if I decide to keep the Dizzy Spell (for Kaervek's Torch over Rolling Thunder), I might include REB/Pyroblast instead of Skred. Unfortunately, there are no good instant speed blue or black sac outlets at 1 mana.
Oblivion Ring: I included this as a catch-all against indestructible non-creatures, and as an out against Humility. However, it's bad in this capacity when you don't have Capsize (there are many more cards for abusing Faceless Butcher, so that's a different story) since CoA blows it up. I've been looking at Reality Acid instead. It has the same abuse potential with Capsize and even more so since it hits lands too. It also have better CoA synergy, essentially "priming" indestructible targets before she explodes. It can also slowly kill CoA on its own, which ORing can't. Two things make me hesitate though:
1) It's a more useless than ORing on its own, and a more narrow tutor target (basically never tutored for without something indestructible on the board, unless you need to LD while blowing up CoA)
2) It means I'll have to run Dismantling Blow over Qasali Pridemage to still have a feasible out against Humility. Not sure which is the better card though, so this might not be a problem.
Expedition Map: This should probably be Reap and Sow. It costs 1 more but puts the land into play untapped, so the total net cost is the same. It also ramps and has added LD utility. This is exactly why I don't like Dizzy Spell - because it makes me want to run inferior cards just so I can add value to the tutor. OTOH, Kaervak's Torch *is* a lot better than Rolling Thunder for this deck IMO. And colorless manafixing is what makes my build work, so...
Mystic Remora and Rhystic Study: I'm taking a hard look at my draw package and these are probably the worst/most unreliable, despite running Auramancer (which may well be a mistake in itself - despite creature theft auras). I think Ponder and Preordain would really shine in my build since it's so lean on green and forests. Another card I've looked at is Wordly Counsel, which looks great considering I'm already running Intuition. I think Deep Analysis would be the one to go for that one. If I need to transmute for a 4 CMC draw spell, I always pick Foresee. DA is mostly good for discarding, and even then I find it pales in comparison to Altar's Reap (but I know the latter is a matter of controversy for some).
Reclaim: Another card for the Dizzy Spell package, that ends up being a worse Elven Cache when actually tutored for. I'm not sure this is better than even Raise Dead, especially if Cache is already run as a way to get back a Mountain or aura. Something I have considered instead (especially if Dizzy Spell stays for Torch) is Undying Evil. That has gotta be the best CoA recursion target at 1 CMC in PDH (despite its timing limitations).
Another card I'm strongly considering is Harrow. Why don't I see this in lists more? It's instant speed (fetches with Teachings) and its effective cost is 1 since the lands ETB untapped. It doesn't come with Cultivate's/Kodama's CA, but at 2 mana cheaper, who cares - it still fixes two colors which is awesome. I'm considering it over Krosan Tusker (or possibly in addition to, but I'm trying to keep the green fixing to a minimum).
All thoughts on these cards are very appreciated as it will help me greatly in finalizing my list!
EDIT: What do you think about Tragic Slip? Hasn't been mentioned in the thread before I think, but I'd say it has at least as much potential as Skred, and it's on color.
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I have been considering cutting Rhystic Study forever as well, because I never tutor for it and it isn't too good late game.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
I dig Undying Evil but I don't like Dizzy Spell. Maybe I have to change my mind about this. Having things like REB and Pyroblast and some more 1-cmc threats in my deck it might be good enough... oh the prejudice
If I keep my main CMC at 2.5 or less most probably I'll cut some more lands (making it 37-38 total) and test some tweaks. Urdjur let me greedy about deck space used by lands. This might be the best thought about the deck - it floods for me sometimes....
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
And the reason you're getting REB/Pyro is to off CoA? Or to cover your plays against counters? I've been getting Skred to kill CoA instead, which has been working so-so as reported above, and hesitating to include REB/Pyro due to having less blue in my meta. However, if you're in a blue meta and still mostly use them to kill CoA, I might reconsider. My main reason to run Dizzy Spell is to avoid having your red X-spell stuck in your last cards. That alone isn't reason enough to run it though, so I try to get more value out of it.
The more I think about it, the more I like Tragic Slip and Undying Evil. I think they will be great with cards like Sakura-Tribe Elder and Mulldrifter. Might even go with Alexandre's idea and include Spore Frog and Kami of False Hope if I go with that package.
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Out: 4 Panoramas, Krosan Wayfarer, and Rhystic Study.
In: Dizzy Spell, Vedalken Aethermage, Tragic Slip, Undying Evil, Island, and Swamp.
Let's see what happen. I guess it'll be faster
Did you see the new card Deputy of Acquittals? Looks a worse Whitemane Lion but will keep an eye on it.
Also, do you think Psychotic Fury deserves a place in the deck?
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
The beauty of the two spells is their flexibility. If you are in meta without heavy blue, then winning is a complete and utter joke. After about turn 10 or so, nobody can stand up to you at all. The spells kill Child a fair amount, but having a counterspell/vindicate split card for one mana is useful as well.
Time to find a replacement for Rhystic Study, tough since I am playing almost every draw spell anyway, maybe Shade's Form in order to try it out.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
5 Child of Alara
CREATURES (15)
4 Archaeomancer
4 Faceless Butcher
4 Dimir House Guard
2 Dimir Infiltrator
3 Drift of Phantasms
5 Izzet Chronarch
1 Kami of False Hope
3 Krosan Restorer
5 Mnemonic Wall
5 Mulldrifter
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
5 Scrivener
3 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Spore Frog
2 Vedalken Aethermage
ARTIFACTS (3)
3 Darksteel Ingot
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
3 False Demise
3 Freed from the Real
3 Shade's Form
3 Unhallowed Pact
SORCERIES (16)
3 Cultivate
2 Disturbed Burial
4 Elven Cache
3 Far Wanderings
4 Foresee
1 Kaervek's Torch
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Last Rites
2 Merchant Scroll
3 Mind Extraction
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Reap and Sow
2 Revoke Existence
5 Rush of Knowledge
5 Urborg Uprising
2 Altar's Reap
1 Brainstorm
3 Capsize
2 Counterspell
2 Devour Flesh
1 Dizzy Spell
3 Faerie Trickery
3 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Ghostly Flicker
2 Grim Harvest
3 Harrow
2 Impulse
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Mystical Teachings
2 Overrule
3 Perplex
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shred Memory
3 Soul Manipulation
4 Rewind
2 Terminate
1 Tragic Slip
5 Traumatic Visions
1 Undying Evil
2 Worldly Counsel
LANDS (35)
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Command Tower
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguid Promenade
1 Shimmering Grotto
1 Halimar Depths
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Khalni Garden
1 Bant Panorama
1 Jund Panorama
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Simic Guildgate
1 Slippery Karst
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Plains
7 Island
7 Swamp
A few brief notes on unorthodox choices:
Faceless Butcher: Discussed earlier in the thread but got cut for some reason. Great synergy with Capsize, Altar's Reap and Ghostly Flicker, can kill indestructible stuff as you blow up CoA at instant speed or save a dude from the blast.
Kami of False Hope + Spore Frog: Surviving to the mid game is a top priority and these guys help. Also forms a hard to disrupt immunity with Grim Harvest/Disturbed Burial and has synergy with Tragic Slip.
Scrivener: "Instants only" is still 25% of the deck and getting 2 recursion wizards in play with Ghostly Flicker in the deck is just too good to pass up, so I max out on instant competent recursion bears.
False Demise + Shade's Form + Unhallowed Pact: I've already explained why I think these are great (see above). Of course, since they recur CoA a lot of the time, I cut back on other forms of recursion.
Elven Cache: To recur a countered Freed from the Real or off color mana source. Mostly recurs other stuff though, but it's good insurance. My only 4 CMC recursion spell (I try to have at least one at each CMC and I value this over Gravedigger).
Last Rites: To interact with fast combo. I think it's a good strategy for this deck to run cards that may not be that advantageous on their own, if they allow the deck to handle situations that it otherwise couldn't.
Reap and Sow: This replaces Expedition Map/Nihil Spellbomb for the GY hate slot, it replaces Wrecking Ball for LD utility (often just used to kill CoA anyway, and much too expensive for that use), it ramps (!) and it provides 2-for-1 potential! I think more lists should play this card - it saves valuable deck space.
Revoke Existence: As with Last Rites, this could be something cooler like Dismantling Blow, but no other disenchant effect solves problems for the deck like this single card (darksteel stuff for instance). I suck it up and play it.
Urborg Uprising: My recursion spell at 5 CMC (Brainspoil) and it's a great one. I think it's probably as strong as Rush of Knowledge at the same CMC.
Altar's Reap: I have enough card draw to not have to play this early and uncounterable sac at instant speed is great. I've had no issue with this at all and think more should play it - definetely before Diviniation or some such.
Harrow: Manafixes two colors and ramps for a net cost of one green mana. And it is an instant (very few ramp spells are) so you now have a Teachings target too. I think more people should play this over stuff like Farhaven Elf.
Pyroblast + Red Elemental Blast: While I only have about 1/3 blue in my meta, this follows the philosophy of Revoke Existence/Last Rites/Spore Frog. If blue is one of the few threats this deck faces, why not run anti-blue sac outlets for CoA to make you more unstoppable?
Rewind: I think I'm the only one playing this counter. With 2 recursion bears and ghostly flicker, this lets you counter a spell for 3 mana (as long as you keep at least 4 open) as many times as you like. Spend 9 mana, counter 3 spells - repeat next turn. With 25% of the deck being instants, sitting with mana open is not a problem, plus you get it all back to play more instants. Run it!
Tragic Slip: My answer to indestructible creatures together with butcher, devour flesh and ye olde Capsize + counter.
Undying Evil: My 1 CMC CoA recursion and the most efficient one in the deck by far - good synergy also with evoke and sac dudes.
Worldly Counsel: Impulse #2, I picked this over Deep Analysis which was often a let down to me.
Khalni Garden: I let this stay (but removed Haunted Fengraf) mainly because I have so few Ghostly Flicker targets and producing tokens for 3 each turn can be useful for chumping. Also provides that key early defense. The ETB tapped issue isn't that great since I'm only running 4 total guildgates + cyclers.
I've discussed the mana base before, so I won't reiterate that here. Looking forward to your comments!
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Kami of False Hope + Spore Frog: Well you know, I like the original idea can put both critters but I will test only the Frog for now.
Scrivener: Makes sense, completely. I hate his 5-cmc but it can be worth a try. Replacing what is the question. Will think about it in the near future...
False Demise + Shade's Form + Unhallowed Pact: I prefer the vanilla recursions, but these are cool options.
Elven Cache: Dunno, Gravedigger is better colored and it's a creature. And costs 2GG, dangerous particularly in your lightly green mana sources. Won't Reclaim do?
Last Rites: No political, kills CA. Don't like.
Reap and Sow: good points, but I prefer cheaper spells. In your build this is better, I guess.
Revoke Existence: I prefer Qasali Pridemage. More abuse with reanimate spells. It beats. But this exiles stuff. It's a good tradeoff to think about.
Urborg Uprising: nice but expensive to cast, I think Reaping the Graves is better. Both don't fit right now in my deck, but who knows?
Altar's Reap: Don't like.
Harrow: Can your 35-land build be that aggresive on ramp? If so, go ahead. It's risky but everything you said is true.
Pyroblast + Red Elemental Blast: Nuff said, it's dat cool.
Rewind: This is the first one I'd try. Looks a bit situational to be a combo in itself though (very late game to have all that mana available, plus Flicker and dudes). Kudos for this one anyway.
Tragic Slip: Was in previous builds of mine, now with Dizzy Spell and sac dorks it's amazing.
Undying Evil: Now we're talking - cheap 'n' good. Kudos again
Worldly Counsel: Meh so far IMO.
Khalni Garden: Double meh, sorry.
Final feedback, on the mana base: I still think you can't run less than 35 lands in this deck (so you're on the edge), and still you play some ETB lands, Harrow, and your build looks expensive to cast (didn't make or see the stats). If you feel you don't need to rethink something here that's cool, but that's my feeling.
Edit 1: changed my deck replacing Ambush Viper with Winged Coatl - flying must help. Better than Snakeform IMO and not much more difficult to cast. I lose CA but I gain reuse with GY recurs. And the other creature actually dies, which must be good!
Edit 2: played 1v1 with my current deck against a boy with a (non-Pauper, of course, lol) RGW deck based on token generation, elves/ramp and fatties. He was going to kill me with an infinite Fireball on turn 6 but I cracked my CoA first. Then I abused his usage (5-6 times, even using dat Pyroblast as trigger) and locked him with Capsize/Archaeomancer/Soul Manipulation and beat him till he was 8 (I was like 48) and used Rolling Thunder to save some time. Some thoughts: a) Darksteel Pendant is my SDT for this deck, seriously. b) Rest of the Weary looks meh, if it continues like that I will put Kami of False Hope instead. c) not bad for a deck costing about as much as a good shield for it.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G