Take to these results as you will. I will not post my HORDE decklist here, however you can find it in my tag if your curious.
DOUBLE TAP:
in larger multiplayer games wrath effects are too common and make the game to easy. So we modified it. the FIRST wrath effect cast by a survivor only wipes 50% of the horde's creature base (random and rounded up), but acts normal on the survivors. So to completely wipe the Horde's board in a single turn, 2 wrath effects will need to be played. This was cleaverly called the DOUBLE TAP.
STARTING LIFE:
We used 20 + 10 per player. 20 wasn't enough for single player, and 80 was too much for 4 players.
1 player = 30
2 player = 40
3 player = 50
4 player = 60
HOW WE HANDLED FLASHBACK:
After much testing this became the easiest: Flashback cards that are seen in the graveyard at the start of the turn are cast. They are not cast again the same turn they are revealed. Example: Moan of the unhallowed adds 2 zombies the turn it is revealed, and another 2 zombies the following turn from flashback. If milled into the graveyard via damage to the horde, it will add 2 zombies the next turn the horde takes.
LIFELINK AND LIFE GAIN:
some cards like soul warden or putting lifelink on a huge beater (Spirit Loop) tend to break the game a little in the survivor's favor. We're having debates if it really maters. Your thoughts? We did all our matches posted below with gaining life as normal.
11 match results:
all these matches had all 100 horde cards to help determin how easy it was to win. Current horde deck is posted in my tag.
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(1) 1 player: LOST: -8/100 total : Plague Wind = last flipped
(2) 1 player: LOST: -25/100 total: Fleshbag Maurader = last flipped
(3) 1 player: LOST: -47/100 total: Noxious Ghoul = last fliped (5 zombie tokens same turn)
(4) 2 Player: LOST: -100/100 total: Phage (final boss) + cover of darkness
(5) 2 player: WON: -100/100 total:
(6) 2 player: LOST: -16/100 total: Army of the damned = last flipped
(7) 2 player: WON: -100/100 total:
(8) 3 player: LOST: -16/100 total: Twilights call = last flipped
(9) 3 player: WON: -100/100 total:
(10) 3 player: WON: -100/100 total:
(11) 3 player: LOST: -25/100 total: Fleshbag marauder = last flipped
The first spell resolves at the beginning of the 1st main phase and we just figure the Zombies see a castable spell and cast it again. So, unless there is instant speed graveyard removal (which I see a ton of in my group) the Zombies get 26 dudes with Army and 4 dudes with Moan. I haven't felt the need to neuter it yet though.
DOUBLE TAP:
in larger multiplayer games wrath effects are too common and make the game to easy. So we modified it. the FIRST wrath effect cast by a survivor only wipes 50% of the horde's creature base (random and rounded up), but acts normal on the survivors. So to completely wipe the Horde's board in a single turn, 2 wrath effects will need to be played. This was cleaverly called the DOUBLE TAP.
I like this, though my meta is one where more spot removal is played; no one really plays creature-heavy decks there. I could see this if my meta had more wrath effects, but it doesn't. Are you okay with me adding the Double Tap to my list of rules Cap?
STARTING LIFE:
We used 20 + 10 per player. 20 wasn't enough for single player, and 80 was too much for 4 players.
1 player = 30
2 player = 40
3 player = 50
4 player = 60
I like 30+10, just because one player needs more than 20 most of the time against this hyper-tuned list. Though I MAY adjust it to be 30-40-40-50, because 4 players don't need that much life, and I feel no REAL difference in 2-3 Survivors. Anyone with more experience in these games that can add to that?
LIFELINK AND LIFE GAIN:
some cards like soul warden or putting lifelink on a huge beater (Spirit Loop) tend to break the game a little in the survivor's favor. We're having debates if it really maters. Your thoughts? We did all our matches posted below with gaining life as normal.
Lifelink IS huge, but the Horde spits out a TON of damage, and has a healthy stock of mass removal with two copies of Plague Winds and three copies of Noxious Ghoul. There's also been no real indication to me of needing review on the principle that no one in our group plays heavy lifegain. Though my Isamaru deck DID get Ajani, Elspeth, the Soul Sisters, the Jitte, AND Warhammer out at once; needless to say the zombies sucked it hard.
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EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Thinking about the whole kicker thing, what if it were randomized. X D6, where X equals the number of survivors left.
But kicker is a choice.....so woudnt it be randomized as to if you do or don't?
Here's an automated way of doing kicker, since Horde is supposed to be able to run itself. Roll a D6 when you cast a spell with kicker; even, it gets kicked, odd it doesn't. Should it get kicked, I feel that it should be roll [S+2]D6, where S=number of Survivors; We play Musketeer-style all for one and one for all, everyone Survives, or everyone dies; no one left behind! Anywho, just a thought, in terms of competitive; you'd have to test and tweak that, though.
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EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Here's an automated way of doing kicker, since Horde is supposed to be able to run itself. Roll a D6 when you cast a spell with kicker; even, it gets kicked, odd it doesn't. Should it get kicked, I feel that it should be roll [S+2]D6, where S=number of Survivors; We play Musketeer-style all for one and one for all, everyone Survives, or everyone dies; no one left behind! Anywho, just a thought, in terms of competitive; you'd have to test and tweak that, though.
hmm...makes sense. And if its multikicker or X then its 100 max.
mind you, my debate comes with Verdeloth the ancient, and 100 2/2 Saprolings are no worse than the same amount as elves.
hmm...makes sense. And if its multikicker or X then its 100 max.
mind you, my debate comes with Verdeloth the ancient, and 100 2/2 Saprolings are no worse than the same amount as elves.
I understand. My only thing is that WAS with Ver in mind. There shouldn't be a cap, because once in a while they DESERVE to go nuts. Keep in mind this is a competitive primer. I don't have the time or resources curently to put a Sap deck together, as much as I'd love to. But the deck needs outs and in's. Being, cards that end the game and put them back in it, which isn't something Green's particularly good at without crazy plays like 250 2/2's.
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EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I understand. My only thing is that WAS with Ver in mind. There shouldn't be a cap, because once in a while they DESERVE to go nuts. Keep in mind this is a competitive primer. I don't have the time or resources curently to put a Sap deck together, as much as I'd love to. But the deck needs outs and in's. Being, cards that end the game and put them back in it, which isn't something Green's particularly good at without crazy plays like 250 2/2's.
okay....i was having a brain fart. I want to do this, but my group i know will whine that the horde is too powerful, so im trying to keep it as competitive as it is here, but with the illusion of it seeming fairer.
But green really does benefit well, Doubling Season and the new ISD one would break it if i did throw the ancient in.
I like this, though my meta is one where more spot removal is played; no one really plays creature-heavy decks there. I could see this if my meta had more wrath effects, but it doesn't. Are you okay with me adding the Double Tap to my list of rules Cap?
This is an open source varient, add whatever you like. Our playgroup loves it, and it will probably stay here as a rule until we find something better, but it works rather well.
I haven't felt the need to neuter it yet though.
We did, almost right away. Any we're a wrath heavy meta. Now have it cast flashback if it sees the card in the graveyard at the start of the turn.
For anybody looking to design a co-op friendly deck for fighting the horde, Eladamri's Vineyard is a decent start. Who doesn't like getting two free mana (even if colourless for most decks)? Some of the other cards I've found: a green enchantment that stops all mana pools from emptying, an XG sorcery that allows all players to search for X basic lands, Collective Voyage, Death by Dragons, Mana Flare, a green version of Mana Flare (Calprinicus has shown it to be Heartbeat of Spring), and Mass Hysteria. If anybody has any other cards that help everybody out (and conveniently doesn't help the horde) please list them. After all, I'm designing a bunch of decks to fight the horde and all of the co-op friendly cards there are would be a great help.
Veteran Explorer fits in perfectly for what I'm looking for. Standstill is also quite nice. Heartbeat of Spring is exactly the "red Mana Flare" I mentioned in my last post, so thanks for providing me with the name of that card.
As for Howling Mine and Rites of Flourishing, I'm wondering if they're as good as they seem. I mean, all the heroes getting a free card every turn is fantastic (especially if they get the first card by dropping this on free turn two). However, the horde also gets a card. I guess it all comes down to how the horde draws a card. As far as I can tell, there are two ways to do it. You can either treat it the same as the horde's draw step (in other words, reveal until non-token and keep them all), or you can treat the draw step as unique and instead just give them the amount of cards drawn. I mean, if the average zombie tokens hit per draw is (for this example) 3, it means that they'll get 3 tokens and something, then 3 tokens and something. If it's treated as a normal draw, it would likely mean 3 tokens and something and then 1 token. This is likely something that needs to be tested for difficulty (in just a general scenario), but what is everyones first thought for how to treat the horde drawing outside of its draw step? Due to the wording of the two cards above, they'd get to cast anything they get from the free draw on their first main phase of the turn, so the draw step way of doing it provides a larger opportunity of being blown out of the water. Regardless, I'd like opinions from everyone on how their group does it (or plans on doing it).
okay....i was having a brain fart. I want to do this, but my group i know will whine that the horde is too powerful, so im trying to keep it as competitive as it is here, but with the illusion of it seeming fairer.
But green really does benefit well, Doubling Season and the new ISD one would break it if i did throw the ancient in.
Parallel Lives. And yes, I think if you tweaked it to a certain point of perfection, it would be absolutely bonkers. DO IT!
Veteran Explorer fits in perfectly for what I'm looking for. Standstill is also quite nice. Heartbeat of Spring is exactly the "red Mana Flare" I mentioned in my last post, so thanks for providing me with the name of that card.
As for Howling Mine and Rites of Flourishing, I'm wondering if they're as good as they seem. I mean, all the heroes getting a free card every turn is fantastic (especially if they get the first card by dropping this on free turn two). However, the horde also gets a card. I guess it all comes down to how the horde draws a card. As far as I can tell, there are two ways to do it. You can either treat it the same as the horde's draw step (in other words, reveal until non-token and keep them all), or you can treat the draw step as unique and instead just give them the amount of cards drawn. I mean, if the average zombie tokens hit per draw is (for this example) 3, it means that they'll get 3 tokens and something, then 3 tokens and something. If it's treated as a normal draw, it would likely mean 3 tokens and something and then 1 token. This is likely something that needs to be tested for difficulty (in just a general scenario), but what is everyones first thought for how to treat the horde drawing outside of its draw step? Due to the wording of the two cards above, they'd get to cast anything they get from the free draw on their first main phase of the turn, so the draw step way of doing it provides a larger opportunity of being blown out of the water. Regardless, I'd like opinions from everyone on how their group does it (or plans on doing it).
Howling mine gives the green deck a fair shake, but it helps the Survivors more than itself, so try out a couple copies of Harmonize.
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EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Your peer pressure is going to make me broke (although the tabernacle didnt help my wallet)
fine then.....but im going pure saproling so no treefolk shaman tokens.
Tell you what; send me a PM with the state/country you live in, and I may make a donation to your cause; I have plenty of tokens, among other things.
Also, on another note: Cards like Ant Queen should have a cap, if there are any that make x tokens for mana. Maybe 25? Should test it alone first, then decide. Also, Heartstone seems useless, but it works for the Survivors, and you should add flavor, like it doubles all current activated ability caps.
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EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Also, on another note: Cards like Ant Queen should have a cap, if there are any that make x tokens for mana. Maybe 25?
So our playgroup has a sliver horde. After the horde deck is depleted we turn over a final boss. We have two. One is Sliver Legion the other is Sliver Queen. How we managed Sliver Queen is by each player rolls 1d6 and it produces that many slivers per horde's turn. I would imagine you can manage Ant Queen in a simular way.
Howling mine gives the green deck a fair shake, but it helps the Survivors more than itself, so try out a couple copies of Harmonize.
I'm referring to having the heroes using Howling Mine, Font of Mythos, and Rites of Flourishing. I'm trying to design co-op based decks for the heroes to use. It's either better for the horde or heroes based on if the drawing from these cards would cause the "revealing" that the zombies get in their draw step or if it's just drawing cards like normal that get played in the horde's next main phase.
As are mine; someone brought up Saps and I was providing input. As for the "each player is forced to..." cards, it can cause some tension if the game gets dragged on and with constant "Didja remember to"s, I personally stay away form them; but to each their own.
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EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
As for the "each player is forced to..." cards, it can cause some tension if the game gets dragged on and with constant "Didja remember to"s, I personally stay away form them; but to each their own.
I think it's a good way to increase the team spirit. Maybe not the Howling Mine and such, but the other ones that I listed before that are pure benefit to only the heroes. It helps them try and defend the onslaught together. I mean, if one person was grabbing ammunition in a zombie apocalypse, common sense says that they'd be able to bring more than just they want for their allies. Plus since everyone is on the same side, even Howling Mine and them aren't as big of a pain. The reminders are nice when it's your free card that may be the one to help repel the horde.
Anyways, I finally read your first post again Moxious One and I gotta say... I like how you resolved the drawing problem for the Horde. Your method allows the horde to benefit from Howling Mine and company, but at the same time can give them nothing. Best of all is that if the horde hits a card they play, the heroes effectively cut their one turn of safety out of the picture (after all, if the top card isn't a token, it would have meant no surprise rush of zombie tokens to ruin your day). I definitely think I'll be adopting that method for our group, as it enables us to use Howling Mine, Rites of Flourishing, and all those cards without having to decide on rules for the situation.
THIS
IS
AWESOME.
That's all I can say about this variant. Many thanks for posting this thread here. A few suggestions that lend to excellent flavor: Dark Triumph Unnerve Overrun.
Granted, I haven't built a Horde deck though, but I will be getting as many zombie tokens as possible so I can build this. I actually cannot wait to play this.
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In love with Black since I first began playing Avatar of Woe.
In love with Blue since Cryptic Command was printed.
I think it's a good way to increase the team spirit. Maybe not the Howling Mine and such, but the other ones that I listed before that are pure benefit to only the heroes. It helps them try and defend the onslaught together. I mean, if one person was grabbing ammunition in a zombie apocalypse, common sense says that they'd be able to bring more than just they want for their allies. Plus since everyone is on the same side, even Howling Mine and them aren't as big of a pain. The reminders are nice when it's your free card that may be the one to help repel the horde.
I understand your logic here. I'm not saying they're bad, just that they're not worth throwing in the Horde deck is all. Most EDH decks that can run these do any ways.
Anyways, I finally read your first post again Moxious One and I gotta say... I like how you resolved the drawing problem for the Horde. Your method allows the horde to benefit from Howling Mine and company, but at the same time can give them nothing. Best of all is that if the horde hits a card they play, the heroes effectively cut their one turn of safety out of the picture (after all, if the top card isn't a token, it would have meant no surprise rush of zombie tokens to ruin your day). I definitely think I'll be adopting that method for our group, as it enables us to use Howling Mine, Rites of Flourishing, and all those cards without having to decide on rules for the situation.
That's what I'm here for; to help smooth out some of the unforeseen glitches in the matrix.
Planeswalkers. These have been the biggest pain in my arse in trying to perfect this format. Seriously. I have no real answer. If the Horde automatically ignores them, they all go ultimate and Zombies lose. If they always attack them, they soak up WAY too much damage for their (usually) low mana cost. I play with rolling for each zombie as to whether or not they attack the Survivors, or their summoned allies, the Planeswalkers. If they roll to attack a 'walker, and there's more than one out, they roll randomly to attack specific ones. This seems to be effective in my playgroup, but if your playgroup's highly impatient, you may come up with something that works for you; these are just guidelines and suggestions, after all.
We found a better way to deal with Planeswalkers that doesn't involve dice rolling or coin flipping.
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PLANESWALKERS:
Once the horde attacks and all blockers are declared if any get through your defenses (a.k.a not blocked or trample damage) the horde first assigns combat damage to the planeswalkers, enough for lethal, with the fewest possible minnions, then assigns the rest to the player.
For example: You have a planeswalker with 4 Loyalty. The horde attacks and after blockers are declared 2 zombie tokens (2/2) and 1 zombie giant token (5/5) get through. The horde then assigns the 1 unblocked zombie giant token (fewest number of minnions rule) to the planewalker and the other 2 unblocked zombie tokens hit the players.
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For us this makes sense to resolve after blockers are declared since everyone is trying to survive so we shouldn't block differently. We also found we pretty much block the same reguardless of who is attacking what and rolling / flipping per monster gets too complicated and wastes too much time.
With the "Fewest Possible Minnions" clause the planewalkers act as a "bait" for the big baddies and can help survival strategy. Also finding the biggest baddies is again normally an easy thing to find and calculate on the spot. Since planewalkers rarely "go off" in this format anyways this "bait" method adds a different kind of strategy for them. If you do want them to "Go Off" you gotta defend them pretty well to make this possible, since their ultimates are pretty game breaking in most scenarios.
I understand your logic here. I'm not saying they're bad, just that they're not worth throwing in the Horde deck is all. Most EDH decks that can run these do any ways.
Oh I'm not putting anything like this into my horde. My horde is going to be a grueling challenge to the heroes. My intent is to allow some of the heroes decks to get cards like this to help fight against the horde. Since I'm building a bunch of hero decks (to make sure there isn't anything broken or unfair) I figure some advantages like these cards should be tossed into the heroes decks. Effectively I'm treating the horde as a board game. Pre-set classes that are built to work in a team to defeat the horde. Better yet is that I'm designing enough so that if the decks are randomly chosen no two teams should be exactly alike in a game session.
I'm thinking of letting the players use their full EDH deck, including infinites and whatever.
However, I'm planning on making the horde that much more dangerous. I do not have the cards yet etc, so this requires playtesting etc, just asking opinions here.
I was thinking using the horde deck as follows:
1-2 players: 100 cards, draw tokens until first non-token is flipped
3-4 players: 150 cards, draw tokens until 2 non-tokens are flipped
5-6 players: 200 cards, draw tokens until 3 non-tokens are flipped
I.e. the more players there are, the more "draws" or "plays" the horde gets each turn. If you play with 5, the survivors have 100 life (using the 20 per person, might try the 30+10/extra) and the horde flips three times the tokens and non-token cards each turn.
In addition to the normal big bosses and such, the horde deck would have cards like the ones below. I would only use cards that are at least partly black. No overruns etc. For monsters, they should be zombies, with maybe few other "big guys":
I.e. anything that destroys the hand, landbase, any permanents etc from the survivors.
The tokens and non-tokens would be in separate piles before game. I would choose correct amount of non-tokens, but take random cards from the pile, when making the deck. That way nobody would know what non-token cards there would be each time.
I was thinking using the horde deck as follows:
1-2 players: 100 cards, draw tokens until first non-token is flipped
3-4 players: 150 cards, draw tokens until 2 non-tokens are flipped
5-6 players: 200 cards, draw tokens until 3 non-tokens are flipped
I.e. the more players there are, the more "draws" or "plays" the horde gets each turn. If you play with 5, the survivors have 100 life (using the 20 per person, might try the 30+10/extra) and the horde flips three times the tokens and non-token cards each turn.
Here's my thing with that: Higher-valued X's in "until x non-tokens are revealed" usually equates to the Horde decking itself a LOT quicker, and takes time away from your combo players. What if no one's playing Combo?
In addition to the normal big bosses and such, the horde deck would have cards like the ones below. I would only use cards that are at least partly black. No overruns etc. For monsters, they should be zombies, with maybe few other "big guys":
I.e. anything that destroys the hand, landbase, any permanents etc from the survivors.
The tokens and non-tokens would be in separate piles before game. I would choose correct amount of non-tokens, but take random cards from the pile, when making the deck. That way nobody would know what non-token cards there would be each time.
I'm not really into adding non-black cards, just because I like the flavor of mono black, but I do encourage others to try new things. By the way, one of the "bosses" I tried was Living Death, lol
Oh I'm not putting anything like this into my horde. My horde is going to be a grueling challenge to the heroes. My intent is to allow some of the heroes decks to get cards like this to help fight against the horde. Since I'm building a bunch of hero decks (to make sure there isn't anything broken or unfair) I figure some advantages like these cards should be tossed into the heroes decks. Effectively I'm treating the horde as a board game. Pre-set classes that are built to work in a team to defeat the horde. Better yet is that I'm designing enough so that if the decks are randomly chosen no two teams should be exactly alike in a game session.
Are you saying my list isn't a grueling challenge? It's at about a 60% win ratio against tuned decks... Though I have thought about the "classes" idea, and shrugged it off due to my general lack of availability to build them. Though I would Recommend highly, Tolsimir Wolfsblood as your Ranger; he's good.
We found a better way to deal with Planeswalkers that doesn't involve dice rolling or coin flipping.
---------------------------
PLANESWALKERS:
Once the horde attacks and all blockers are declared if any get through your defenses (a.k.a not blocked or trample damage) the horde first assigns combat damage to the planeswalkers, enough for lethal, with the fewest possible minnions, then assigns the rest to the player.
For example: You have a planeswalker with 4 Loyalty. The horde attacks and after blockers are declared 2 zombie tokens (2/2) and 1 zombie giant token (5/5) get through. The horde then assigns the 1 unblocked zombie giant token (fewest number of minnions rule) to the planewalker and the other 2 unblocked zombie tokens hit the players.
---------------------------
For us this makes sense to resolve after blockers are declared since everyone is trying to survive so we shouldn't block differently. We also found we pretty much block the same reguardless of who is attacking what and rolling / flipping per monster gets too complicated and wastes too much time.
With the "Fewest Possible Minnions" clause the planewalkers act as a "bait" for the big baddies and can help survival strategy. Also finding the biggest baddies is again normally an easy thing to find and calculate on the spot. Since planewalkers rarely "go off" in this format anyways this "bait" method adds a different kind of strategy for them. If you do want them to "Go Off" you gotta defend them pretty well to make this possible, since their ultimates are pretty game breaking in most scenarios.
Eh, I agree and disagree; I'm just sticking with random over pre-determined decisions, no offense.
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EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
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DOUBLE TAP:
in larger multiplayer games wrath effects are too common and make the game to easy. So we modified it. the FIRST wrath effect cast by a survivor only wipes 50% of the horde's creature base (random and rounded up), but acts normal on the survivors. So to completely wipe the Horde's board in a single turn, 2 wrath effects will need to be played. This was cleaverly called the DOUBLE TAP.
STARTING LIFE:
We used 20 + 10 per player. 20 wasn't enough for single player, and 80 was too much for 4 players.
1 player = 30
2 player = 40
3 player = 50
4 player = 60
HOW WE HANDLED FLASHBACK:
After much testing this became the easiest: Flashback cards that are seen in the graveyard at the start of the turn are cast. They are not cast again the same turn they are revealed. Example: Moan of the unhallowed adds 2 zombies the turn it is revealed, and another 2 zombies the following turn from flashback. If milled into the graveyard via damage to the horde, it will add 2 zombies the next turn the horde takes.
LIFELINK AND LIFE GAIN:
some cards like soul warden or putting lifelink on a huge beater (Spirit Loop) tend to break the game a little in the survivor's favor. We're having debates if it really maters. Your thoughts? We did all our matches posted below with gaining life as normal.
11 match results:
all these matches had all 100 horde cards to help determin how easy it was to win. Current horde deck is posted in my tag.
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(1) 1 player: LOST: -8/100 total : Plague Wind = last flipped
(2) 1 player: LOST: -25/100 total: Fleshbag Maurader = last flipped
(3) 1 player: LOST: -47/100 total: Noxious Ghoul = last fliped (5 zombie tokens same turn)
(4) 2 Player: LOST: -100/100 total: Phage (final boss) + cover of darkness
(5) 2 player: WON: -100/100 total:
(6) 2 player: LOST: -16/100 total: Army of the damned = last flipped
(7) 2 player: WON: -100/100 total:
(8) 3 player: LOST: -16/100 total: Twilights call = last flipped
(9) 3 player: WON: -100/100 total:
(10) 3 player: WON: -100/100 total:
(11) 3 player: LOST: -25/100 total: Fleshbag marauder = last flipped
R Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
BG Varolz, the scar-striped
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I did because I have played a TON of one-two Survivor games, and it's just nuts if neither deck is running a wrath-heavy deck.
I like this, though my meta is one where more spot removal is played; no one really plays creature-heavy decks there. I could see this if my meta had more wrath effects, but it doesn't. Are you okay with me adding the Double Tap to my list of rules Cap?
I like 30+10, just because one player needs more than 20 most of the time against this hyper-tuned list. Though I MAY adjust it to be 30-40-40-50, because 4 players don't need that much life, and I feel no REAL difference in 2-3 Survivors. Anyone with more experience in these games that can add to that?
Lifelink IS huge, but the Horde spits out a TON of damage, and has a healthy stock of mass removal with two copies of Plague Winds and three copies of Noxious Ghoul. There's also been no real indication to me of needing review on the principle that no one in our group plays heavy lifegain. Though my Isamaru deck DID get Ajani, Elspeth, the Soul Sisters, the Jitte, AND Warhammer out at once; needless to say the zombies sucked it hard.
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
But kicker is a choice.....so woudnt it be randomized as to if you do or don't?
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyHere's an automated way of doing kicker, since Horde is supposed to be able to run itself. Roll a D6 when you cast a spell with kicker; even, it gets kicked, odd it doesn't. Should it get kicked, I feel that it should be roll [S+2]D6, where S=number of Survivors; We play Musketeer-style all for one and one for all, everyone Survives, or everyone dies; no one left behind! Anywho, just a thought, in terms of competitive; you'd have to test and tweak that, though.
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
hmm...makes sense. And if its multikicker or X then its 100 max.
mind you, my debate comes with Verdeloth the ancient, and 100 2/2 Saprolings are no worse than the same amount as elves.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyI understand. My only thing is that WAS with Ver in mind. There shouldn't be a cap, because once in a while they DESERVE to go nuts. Keep in mind this is a competitive primer. I don't have the time or resources curently to put a Sap deck together, as much as I'd love to. But the deck needs outs and in's. Being, cards that end the game and put them back in it, which isn't something Green's particularly good at without crazy plays like 250 2/2's.
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
okay....i was having a brain fart. I want to do this, but my group i know will whine that the horde is too powerful, so im trying to keep it as competitive as it is here, but with the illusion of it seeming fairer.
But green really does benefit well, Doubling Season and the new ISD one would break it if i did throw the ancient in.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyThis is an open source varient, add whatever you like. Our playgroup loves it, and it will probably stay here as a rule until we find something better, but it works rather well.
We did, almost right away. Any we're a wrath heavy meta. Now have it cast flashback if it sees the card in the graveyard at the start of the turn.
R Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
BG Varolz, the scar-striped
veteran explorer, and standstill is free draw for your friends if it's the last spell cast on the survivor's turn.
Adding a false prophet also helps clear the board when it blocks. howling mine, rite of flourishing and heartbeat of spring are also nice ones.
R Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
BG Varolz, the scar-striped
Veteran Explorer fits in perfectly for what I'm looking for. Standstill is also quite nice. Heartbeat of Spring is exactly the "red Mana Flare" I mentioned in my last post, so thanks for providing me with the name of that card.
As for Howling Mine and Rites of Flourishing, I'm wondering if they're as good as they seem. I mean, all the heroes getting a free card every turn is fantastic (especially if they get the first card by dropping this on free turn two). However, the horde also gets a card. I guess it all comes down to how the horde draws a card. As far as I can tell, there are two ways to do it. You can either treat it the same as the horde's draw step (in other words, reveal until non-token and keep them all), or you can treat the draw step as unique and instead just give them the amount of cards drawn. I mean, if the average zombie tokens hit per draw is (for this example) 3, it means that they'll get 3 tokens and something, then 3 tokens and something. If it's treated as a normal draw, it would likely mean 3 tokens and something and then 1 token. This is likely something that needs to be tested for difficulty (in just a general scenario), but what is everyones first thought for how to treat the horde drawing outside of its draw step? Due to the wording of the two cards above, they'd get to cast anything they get from the free draw on their first main phase of the turn, so the draw step way of doing it provides a larger opportunity of being blown out of the water. Regardless, I'd like opinions from everyone on how their group does it (or plans on doing it).
Parallel Lives. And yes, I think if you tweaked it to a certain point of perfection, it would be absolutely bonkers. DO IT!
Howling mine gives the green deck a fair shake, but it helps the Survivors more than itself, so try out a couple copies of Harmonize.
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Your peer pressure is going to make me broke (although the tabernacle didnt help my wallet)
fine then.....but im going pure saproling so no treefolk shaman tokens.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyTell you what; send me a PM with the state/country you live in, and I may make a donation to your cause; I have plenty of tokens, among other things.
Also, on another note: Cards like Ant Queen should have a cap, if there are any that make x tokens for mana. Maybe 25? Should test it alone first, then decide. Also, Heartstone seems useless, but it works for the Survivors, and you should add flavor, like it doubles all current activated ability caps.
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
So our playgroup has a sliver horde. After the horde deck is depleted we turn over a final boss. We have two. One is Sliver Legion the other is Sliver Queen. How we managed Sliver Queen is by each player rolls 1d6 and it produces that many slivers per horde's turn. I would imagine you can manage Ant Queen in a simular way.
R Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
BG Varolz, the scar-striped
I'm referring to having the heroes using Howling Mine, Font of Mythos, and Rites of Flourishing. I'm trying to design co-op based decks for the heroes to use. It's either better for the horde or heroes based on if the drawing from these cards would cause the "revealing" that the zombies get in their draw step or if it's just drawing cards like normal that get played in the horde's next main phase.
My heroes are fighting a zombie horde by the way.
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I think it's a good way to increase the team spirit. Maybe not the Howling Mine and such, but the other ones that I listed before that are pure benefit to only the heroes. It helps them try and defend the onslaught together. I mean, if one person was grabbing ammunition in a zombie apocalypse, common sense says that they'd be able to bring more than just they want for their allies. Plus since everyone is on the same side, even Howling Mine and them aren't as big of a pain. The reminders are nice when it's your free card that may be the one to help repel the horde.
Anyways, I finally read your first post again Moxious One and I gotta say... I like how you resolved the drawing problem for the Horde. Your method allows the horde to benefit from Howling Mine and company, but at the same time can give them nothing. Best of all is that if the horde hits a card they play, the heroes effectively cut their one turn of safety out of the picture (after all, if the top card isn't a token, it would have meant no surprise rush of zombie tokens to ruin your day). I definitely think I'll be adopting that method for our group, as it enables us to use Howling Mine, Rites of Flourishing, and all those cards without having to decide on rules for the situation.
IS
AWESOME.
That's all I can say about this variant. Many thanks for posting this thread here. A few suggestions that lend to excellent flavor:
Dark Triumph
Unnerve
Overrun.
Granted, I haven't built a Horde deck though, but I will be getting as many zombie tokens as possible so I can build this. I actually cannot wait to play this.
In love with Blue since Cryptic Command was printed.
-----------------------------
Standard: Bahahaha. What a waste.
Modern: 4CC
Legacy: Dredge, UB Control
EDH:
UB Dralnu, Lord of Griefer Turns
UErtai, Wizard Adept
I understand your logic here. I'm not saying they're bad, just that they're not worth throwing in the Horde deck is all. Most EDH decks that can run these do any ways.
That's what I'm here for; to help smooth out some of the unforeseen glitches in the matrix.
You're quite welcome.
Excellent flavor, but I'd rather have another [/card=undead warchief]Warchief[/card], personally
I like discard, but 4 Fiends isn't enough?
Flavorful, but against my mono-black build. Pretty sure it'd be funny as heck, though!
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
We found a better way to deal with Planeswalkers that doesn't involve dice rolling or coin flipping.
---------------------------
PLANESWALKERS:
Once the horde attacks and all blockers are declared if any get through your defenses (a.k.a not blocked or trample damage) the horde first assigns combat damage to the planeswalkers, enough for lethal, with the fewest possible minnions, then assigns the rest to the player.
For example: You have a planeswalker with 4 Loyalty. The horde attacks and after blockers are declared 2 zombie tokens (2/2) and 1 zombie giant token (5/5) get through. The horde then assigns the 1 unblocked zombie giant token (fewest number of minnions rule) to the planewalker and the other 2 unblocked zombie tokens hit the players.
---------------------------
For us this makes sense to resolve after blockers are declared since everyone is trying to survive so we shouldn't block differently. We also found we pretty much block the same reguardless of who is attacking what and rolling / flipping per monster gets too complicated and wastes too much time.
With the "Fewest Possible Minnions" clause the planewalkers act as a "bait" for the big baddies and can help survival strategy. Also finding the biggest baddies is again normally an easy thing to find and calculate on the spot. Since planewalkers rarely "go off" in this format anyways this "bait" method adds a different kind of strategy for them. If you do want them to "Go Off" you gotta defend them pretty well to make this possible, since their ultimates are pretty game breaking in most scenarios.
R Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
BG Varolz, the scar-striped
Oh I'm not putting anything like this into my horde. My horde is going to be a grueling challenge to the heroes. My intent is to allow some of the heroes decks to get cards like this to help fight against the horde. Since I'm building a bunch of hero decks (to make sure there isn't anything broken or unfair) I figure some advantages like these cards should be tossed into the heroes decks. Effectively I'm treating the horde as a board game. Pre-set classes that are built to work in a team to defeat the horde. Better yet is that I'm designing enough so that if the decks are randomly chosen no two teams should be exactly alike in a game session.
However, I'm planning on making the horde that much more dangerous. I do not have the cards yet etc, so this requires playtesting etc, just asking opinions here.
I was thinking using the horde deck as follows:
1-2 players: 100 cards, draw tokens until first non-token is flipped
3-4 players: 150 cards, draw tokens until 2 non-tokens are flipped
5-6 players: 200 cards, draw tokens until 3 non-tokens are flipped
I.e. the more players there are, the more "draws" or "plays" the horde gets each turn. If you play with 5, the survivors have 100 life (using the 20 per person, might try the 30+10/extra) and the horde flips three times the tokens and non-token cards each turn.
In addition to the normal big bosses and such, the horde deck would have cards like the ones below. I would only use cards that are at least partly black. No overruns etc. For monsters, they should be zombies, with maybe few other "big guys":
-Decree of pain, Overwhelming forces, Hellfire
- Call to the grave, pillar tombs of aku, the abyss
-Worms of the earth, smallpox, ( pox ?)
-Living death, Living end (the horde tokens will go to graveyard when they die, not disappear)
-Empty the catacombs (anything that goes to horde hand is exiled and put into stack on their next main phase)
-Cabal conditioning, Noxious vapors, Strongarm tactics, syphon mind
- Grave pact
I.e. anything that destroys the hand, landbase, any permanents etc from the survivors.
The tokens and non-tokens would be in separate piles before game. I would choose correct amount of non-tokens, but take random cards from the pile, when making the deck. That way nobody would know what non-token cards there would be each time.
Here's my thing with that: Higher-valued X's in "until x non-tokens are revealed" usually equates to the Horde decking itself a LOT quicker, and takes time away from your combo players. What if no one's playing Combo?
I'm not really into adding non-black cards, just because I like the flavor of mono black, but I do encourage others to try new things. By the way, one of the "bosses" I tried was Living Death, lol
Are you saying my list isn't a grueling challenge? It's at about a 60% win ratio against tuned decks... Though I have thought about the "classes" idea, and shrugged it off due to my general lack of availability to build them. Though I would Recommend highly, Tolsimir Wolfsblood as your Ranger; he's good.
Eh, I agree and disagree; I'm just sticking with random over pre-determined decisions, no offense.
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben