As you all know, the Horde format is an exciting way for Magic players to sit around and kill hordes of Zombies and have fun with friends over pizza and beers. What you may not know is how to go about tweaking it to fit your play group, and hopefully I can help on the Competitive end of that.
I've come to may a few rules changes that have helped to balance the game in a competitive format.
DECK CONSTRUCTION
Size Matters The size of the Horde deck does matter, and selecting the proper token:non-token ratio can be very important. If you're playing casual. I've been playesting new EDH decks of mine against a full-strength Horde deck, and have produced some strong decks because of it. But for you casual players, here's a quick guide. Token:Non-token ratio 1 player- 50 cards, 30:20. 2 players- 65 cards, 39:26. 3 players- 80 cards, 48:32
The 60:40 I feel that a 60:40 ratio for tokens:non-tokens is potent, and I haven't really tried messing with increasing the ratio, to be honest.
There are websites that suggest 20 life/player, and some that have individual Survivor tactics. It's been, in my experience, easier to start at 30 life for one player, then add ten life per additional player. This gives one Survivor a chance at defeating the Horde, and four players more of a reason to work together and plan for crazy Zombie Token conga lines and mass-reanimation spells.
GAME PLAY
First rules change. No infinite combos. They're not fun for everyone, nor is it fair to the Horde. If you want fair, we'll play with 100 Zombie Giant tokens, scoop on the Horde's first turn, then go turn on the Nintendo. That's not what anyone wants in playing Horde magic!
If you have a card that is part of a combo, or single-handedly shuts down the Horde (see White Cheater #1), then you exile that card, and draw a replacement card immediately. This is usually understood by all players, but if there's any question, explain how the card is unfair. Despite the fact you're playing with competitive decks, the format is, by nature, casual; most players will just nod and you'll draw.
The Horde cannot "lose life," as they don't have any to lose. It doesn't make sense, to me, for cards to drain life that doesn't exist. Most cards associated with life lose incorporate life gain, so those spells become life gain spells. If no life gain is involved, only life loss, then the Survivor exile that card and redraws. Feel free to ignore this in your group if you don't agree.
The Horde doesn't get a hand. Ever. If the Horde would be forced to draw a card, it instead reveals to top card of the deck. Non-tokens come into play immediately, and tokens causes the deck to be reshuffled immediately. Do this for each card they would be forced to draw (i.e. skeins). If the Horde would be forced to return permanents to their hand, instead put that card in exile, and cast it on top of the stack at the beginning of their next available main phase. Updated 25.10.11- rules revision
Revealing is also placing spells on the stack. If you reveal 5 tokens, then a Damnation, then cast the Damnation, then the five tokens. It sucks, but there's not many cases where it happens. If it does, take the ten burst damage or counter the black Wrath-effect.
The Horde is mindless, and so is their decision-making Zombies are dumb. If forced to make a decision, as in Trade Secrets, then they roll randomly/flip a coin for it. It's only fair a dumb creature does something randomly.
Planeswalkers. These have been the biggest pain in my arse in trying to perfect this format. Seriously. I have no real answer. If the Horde automatically ignores them, they all go ultimate and Zombies lose. If they always attack them, they soak up WAY too much damage for their (usually) low mana cost. I play with rolling for each zombie as to whether or not they attack the Survivors, or their summoned allies, the Planeswalkers. If they roll to attack a 'walker, and there's more than one out, they roll randomly to attack specific ones. This seems to be effective in my playgroup, but if your playgroup's highly impatient, you may come up with something that works for you; these are just guidelines and suggestions, after all.
So here's how my cutting-edge(ish) deck looks. Feel free to power it up even more or less depending on how it goes in your group. I'd say play it five to six times before tweaking, because of the random and situational performance each time.
------->I say that no two spells can be cast the same turn. Meaning, no casting AotD, then flashback for a net-gain of 26 zombies in one turn. Can be taken out for higher Threat Level (TL). Syphon Flesh begets RIDICULOUS advantage, so I might take one Grave Titan out for another copy, since the net is usually better. The upshot is that you get to get rid of 2-3 of the Survivors' creatures. Might make room for another AotD; must investigate further.
-------> TL's of these vary, but Living Death has been BY FAR the most potent. DotD has been useful, but the randomosity of it makes me think I should take it out for a second Twilight, or another Living Death. Gravebane has been a great source of trouble for Survivors, giving that extra little umph for win condition. A lot of players have gotten the idea to keep blocking it to stop up the flow of zombie tokens so the Survivors can have a breather and get their footing back. May take it out if this continues to lead to unparalelled victories for the Survivors. The Vultures are flying zombies, which are pretty cool. And they usually end up adding to the Zombie Conga Line (ZCL) the next turn.
-------> PW is ridiculous, but not OP in a competitive environment. Call is REALLY good. The Ghouls are RIDICULOUS. Two is bad news, bears. Looking into throwing in a copy of Grave Pact for added Survivor nuisance.
4 Cackling Fiend
-------> With the survivors getting three turns' setup; Getting CF usually means they discard a good deal of their mid/late game advantage. Usefull in raising the TL of the Horde, as well as slowing down synergy combos, since infinite really isn't too problematic.
-------> Not really a fan of the Moons; I like having another Warchief, since I feel like the Horde rarely gets one out, having it milled from damage. Think I might take out the BM and add another Warchief. Done. Don't like Bad Moons, and I don't think I ever will.Updated 25.10.11- deck revision
-------> The "threats" of the deck are many, but these guys add a living-dead body to them! Soulless is self-explanatory: Get rid of him or have a blocking strategy. Unbreathing has proven itself useful EVERY time he's been dropped, forcing out answers on something that shouldn't be such a threat. Marauders have been pretty sweet, and the Muse useful, but usually taken off the board quick with my rules the way they are. (I houserule that if Zombie Master is on the board, zombies auto-regen. This encourages Survivors to use targeted removal on the Master, since he can't do anything to himself without two of them being on the board.)
-------> I looked at the cane and laughed hysterically! It's evil! It resets the Horde's life, effectively. Haven't pulled it off more than once or twice, though, due to it being milled.
EDIT:Also, I keep the deck mono black for flavor, even though I'm well aware of the fact that adding non-black/multi-colored cards could greatly increase the TL of the deck. To each their own.
All feedback and constructive criticism is welcome!
I havent read all of it, but I think you need more zombie giants, I always disagree with people using so few, more ozmbie giants makes lower amount turned over more effective. I would even encourage a 3:1 ratio for a challenge.
I agree with your revisions of the rules, it' so easy to break the format without trying and combo is against spirit of what you're trying to do. In a zombie invasion you can't combo off to kill them, you can only stop them or wait it out.
As for your deck, I would add that two Endless Ranks of the Undead is also a good way to power it up, those challenge the survivors more than most cards and can undo a wrath.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
I have to extend a hearty thanks to you, good sir. As soon as I learned about this format, I ran out and picked up tons of zombie tokens. I was sorely disappointed at the near-impossibility that the single player variant provided, and how laughably easy it got when more players joined. This is a much needed increase in the overall power of the deck, and I intend to test this version out myself shortly.
That said, I do have some suggestions. I think Lord of the Undead and Cemetery Reaper both deserve spots in here, not only as a method to pump the other zombies, but they place an actual body onto the field, unlike Bad Moon for example. Patriarch's Bidding is also a worthy inclusion, because even if you're playing a tribal deck, you generally cannot handle THAT many zombies.
I also usually have the horde cast spells from its "hand" on the main phase after combat if it would have things returned to its hand. As for flashback, I have them cast the spell on the next turn's main phase.
...I would even encourage a 3:1 ratio for a challenge.
I agree with your revisions of the rules, it' so easy to break the format without trying and combo is against spirit of what you're trying to do. In a zombie invasion you can't combo off to kill them, you can only stop them or wait it out.
As for your deck, I would add that two Endless Ranks of the Undead is also a good way to power it up, those challenge the survivors more than most cards and can undo a wrath.
I might entertain the thought of having a higher ratio and more cards flipped, but there's not too many times where I feel like the Horde didn't do a lot of damage on their turn; I'll play with it some. I do have one ERotD, though I haven't had it be relavent enough for two copies.
I have to extend a hearty thanks to you, good sir. As soon as I learned about this format, I ran out and picked up tons of zombie tokens. I was sorely disappointed at the near-impossibility that the single player variant provided, and how laughably easy it got when more players joined. This is a much needed increase in the overall power of the deck, and I intend to test this version out myself shortly.
That said, I do have some suggestions. I think Lord of the Undead and Cemetery Reaper both deserve spots in here, not only as a method to pump the other zombies, but they place an actual body onto the field, unlike Bad Moon for example. Patriarch's Bidding is also a worthy inclusion, because even if you're playing a tribal deck, you generally cannot handle THAT many zombies.
I also usually have the horde cast spells from its "hand" on the main phase after combat if it would have things returned to its hand. As for flashback, I have them cast the spell on the next turn's main phase.
I agree with mainphase after combat, but may just go with the NEXT AVAILABLE main phase. Bad moon is a filler for a body pump, and may just give in and get another warchief, as I like them more for the automated deck; the other two have more abilities that we need to roll for. Been looking out for a copy of the Bidding, and that's probably what my random filler card is for, honestly.
Keep the ideas coming; bump coming up for the list!
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EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I mean, I don't think Lord of the Undead or Cemetery Reaper would use their abilities. They would attack, and make everyone around them bigger. That's how I've been using them anyway. The abilities aren't terribly relevant, not as much as the pump and extra body is.
EDH, on the other hand, is more like a monster truck rally. It's more about the spectacle than the race, the games go long, and it's not usually clear who's in the lead until there's only one truck left.*
Single player EDH is like two guys smacking each other with pillows... until one of them pulls out a shotgun.
I agree with all of your rules revisions, except this one... Minor nit pick. In my playgroup we have the zombies attack and any not blocked will assign their damage to planeswalkers. For example I have JTMS at 5 loyalty and there are 3 unblocked 2/2 tokens, Jace takes 6 damage and dies. The flavour for this is that Planeswalkers are in front of you closer to the front line, they will get attacked by the zombies first.
More complex example, 1 JTMS at 3 loyalty, 1 Venser at 5 loyalty would require 5 2/2 zombies to go unblocked to kill them, 4 damage to Jace, 6 damage to Venser. We have yet to have a situation where one might die but one might not, but I feel we might let the horde take out the more powerful (useful) one. (Much like how we let a player split the piles on our fact or fiction as if they were the horde).
These seem like complicated things that almost require decision-making. I understand that my option is more time-consuming, but that's what I feel is the most random and automated. Though I may try a few games with them attacking for just enough lethal, even though I feel it's too easy for them to say respond with a spot removal and have their walker live for one or two mana.
For anybody looking for a challenge, toss in Time Reversal. It takes a near defeated horde and puts them in a great position (they'll get that many more cards their next turn due to drawing from the Time Reversal). It could be rather back-breaking if they get a Plague Wind and a couple of zombie pump guys. Sure they aren't known to go back in time, but I take this as them reanimating to wreck havoc once again.
Here's my post from the other horde thread about planeswalkers being hit by zombies:
The way that my group has decided to handle planeswalkers is as follows:
1.The horde attacks
2.Blockers are declared
3.Any damage that would go through, must first deal lethal to a planeswalker before hitting a player.
4.This damage is decided in the order 2/2 tokens -> 5/5 tokens -> weakest zombies to stronger zombies (in terms of power).
5.Zombies will only send enough to kill a planeswalker and no more. Zombie damage cannot be split up, so if a planeswalker has 5 loyalty 3 zombie 2/2 tokens would hit it for 6 (not splitting it so one is done to the players).
As it happens in the damage step, there is no chance for a player to hit a zombie with removal so that their walker lives while others will die. As it has been brought up on how to decide which planeswalkers get hit if there are more than one out... I sugges the weakest dies first. Why the weakest? Well, zombies just want to gnaw on somebodies face. They don't really care whether it's a strong football player or a weak little child. In this regard, the stronger one would (in theory) be able to escape zombies easier. So my thought is that the planeswalker with the lowest loyalty should get hit with the damage first. This also prevents the zombies from only wounding a strong walker when a weak one would have died. Giving the horde the best chance to kill a walker seems like the best option for both gameplay and flavour.
If anybody is interested in making decks to fight the horde, this is what I've come up with for some generals and their "class".
Here are some classes for the heroes I've thought of. My idea is to treat this like a board game where you have multiple classes to choose from. This way you can have a different game each time as you'll have different classes participating all the time.
Tor Wauki - Sniper (targeted removal such as burn, pingers, and kill spells that can hit black creatures) Mikaeus, the Lunarch - Cleric (human deck that has lots of support magic like Mikaeus' ability, equipment, and aura's) Riku of Two Reflections - Wizard (take your pick... card draw, burn, pump spells... I'm thinking few creatures and lots of attack and support magic to replicate) Lovisa Coldeyes - Warrior (lots of big guys that are meant to either attack the horde. Equipment sub-theme is what I also think for this deck) Kiku, Night's Flower - Assassin (does what black does best - kill opponents creatures. Any kind of killing effect that can hit black creatures is what this is all about. Deathtouch aplenty) Ragnar - Supporter/beastmaster (lots of aura's and other supportive magic. This also boasts animal creatures to back up the support [animals to make him a beastmaster is just for my personal flavour]) Kaysa - Swarm (lots of smaller green creatures that get mean when put alongside her effect. Cheap and quick, it's all about getting a quick defense or offense of little guys [your choice based on how you want to design it]) Lady Evangela - Walls (this is all about getting a rock-solid defense going. These three colours often have some of the best walls, hence why I went with esper. The white portion also has a lot of the prevent damage creatures like Atalya, Samite Master)
That's all I've thought of for now. Obviously some of these are not the optimal choices (I'm doing these for flavour of fitting their decks first). I also held myself to humans/humanoids for the generals.
I know you said "almost". I feel my method could be even more simplified by saying all unblocked damage is assigned to the strongest planeswalker first.
This would eliminate any decision-making. Please alart me to anywhere a decision needs to be made.
I plan to post my list on here some point 200 cards tall at a ratio of 65:35.
I like the idea of all attacking damage must be assigned to the "strongest" planeswalker, lethal only, then on to the next, until it gets through to the Survivors. Will bump the frint page tomorrow at some point for that.
I actually got a friend who quit Magic back into it with teaching him the rules for commander, and then for Horde.
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EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Ok. So I am thinking a Golem/artifact horde would be great. ATM I have a "slaves of man" G/W/golem going, but eventually I want a MAN VERSUS MACHINE deck.
1/1 myr 3/3 Golems and 9/9 Golems 1/1 Pentavites
Yes please.
EDIT:
Gargoyle Tokens too. 3/4 with Flying. I think it would be a blast.
I've been theorycrafting and have some questions. This seems like a good place to ask what people think.
Flashback:
Horde flips Army of the Damned does it immediately get flashbacked? Does it wait until the next turn? Horde has infinite mana so couldn't it immediately flash it back? Does it never flash it back? Thinking might roll a D6 each turn and on a 6 it gets flashbacked. Not sure.
Zombie Tokens:
Do they go to the Horde graveyard? Can they be countered (CMC=0 I would think)? If in the graveyard do they count as creature cards (ala Living Death bringing them back)?
I've constructed a Zed Horde deck but haven't put it into action yet. Like to know what you all think and what you do.
Flashback:
Horde flips Army of the Damned does it immediately get flashbacked? Does it wait until the next turn? Horde has infinite mana so couldn't it immediately flash it back? Does it never flash it back? Thinking might roll a D6 each turn and on a 6 it gets flashbacked. Not sure.
As stated on the first page, the Horde cannot caste the same non-token spell twice in a turn. I play it that they caste it the next available pre-combat main phase.
Zombie Tokens:
Do they go to the Horde graveyard? Can they be countered (CMC=0 I would think)? If in the graveyard do they count as creature cards (ala Living Death bringing them back)?
Tokens created from AotD are tokens, whereas the "tokens" in the deck are played as cards, CMC=0. Any spell in their deck is counterable. And yes; I play so that death brings them back; this is for competitive, tuned decks.
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EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
How would you go about a more living type of horde: Saprolings.
And in that, what about Kicker? Does Verdeloth the Ancient create an infinite-1 number of tokens?
you could always make it so that the spell can only be kicked a number of times equal to the number of turns the horde deck has taken to avoid that whole issue.
[I posted this in the main Commander section, but it seems more appropriate here]
I tried some of the designs other built and it was way too easy to beat. So, we hammered out a harder more aggressive deck that seems to keep the pace more in line with a Zombie Apocalypse. First, when playing with 3 players (the preferred number), we start with 60 life and take 2 turns before the Zombies start their turn. Three was too many. Second, the Zombies get all 100 cards since shaving cards off made it really imbalanced towards the Survivors. Third, Army of the Damned is cast and then immediately flashed back unless someone can Crypt it away - which usually happens. Fourth, Infect is at 10 poison counters. Finally, Yawgmoth Will is nuts.
[I posted this in the main Commander section, but it seems more appropriate here]
I tried some of the designs other built and it was way too easy to beat. So, we hammered out a harder more aggressive deck that seems to keep the pace more in line with a Zombie Apocalypse. First, when playing with 3 players (the preferred number), we start with 60 life and take 2 turns before the Zombies start their turn. Three was too many. Second, the Zombies get all 100 cards since shaving cards off made it really imbalanced towards the Survivors. Third, Army of the Damned is cast and then immediately flashed back unless someone can Crypt it away - which usually happens. Fourth, Infect is at 10 poison counters. Finally, Yawgmoth Will is nuts.
All variants are welcome here! I just ask that we not get into the whole "my list is better" thing, because that simply depends on the metagame. I am anxious to get ahold of a Yawg Will, since I playtested it, and it usually translated to cast, GG. CoA, I am not a fan of, but then again I'm using Feldon's Cane for shi'ggles. You guys find ERotD as useless as I do in this format?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
How do we feel about custom tokens?
Like a U/B 2/1 Flying Zombie Wight token. Or Etc. Something like Boss tokens or just generally beefier tokens. Or evergreen ability tokens.
I think Deathtouch and pro colors would be the best on smaller tokens to create tension. Trample on big guy would be nice. Get around reoccurring chump blockers.
All variants are welcome here! I just ask that we not get into the whole "my list is better" thing, because that simply depends on the metagame. I am anxious to get ahold of a Yawg Will, since I playtested it, and it usually translated to cast, GG. CoA, I am not a fan of, but then again I'm using Feldon's Cane for shi'ggles. You guys find ERotD as useless as I do in this format?
I can't honestly see how someone could claim their list is better than another since the quality of the deck is 100% dependent on the playgroup. This deck would absolutely plow some groups I know and others just brush it off
Yawg's Will early is "meh." But when it's in the bottom half it's funny because if it casts Living End/Death it can backfire.
And yes, Endless Ranks either wins games the Zombies are winning or it does nothing... Winmore for sure.
I've come to may a few rules changes that have helped to balance the game in a competitive format.
DECK CONSTRUCTION
Size Matters The size of the Horde deck does matter, and selecting the proper token:non-token ratio can be very important. If you're playing casual. I've been playesting new EDH decks of mine against a full-strength Horde deck, and have produced some strong decks because of it. But for you casual players, here's a quick guide.
Token:Non-token ratio 1 player- 50 cards, 30:20. 2 players- 65 cards, 39:26. 3 players- 80 cards, 48:32
The 60:40 I feel that a 60:40 ratio for tokens:non-tokens is potent, and I haven't really tried messing with increasing the ratio, to be honest.
There are websites that suggest 20 life/player, and some that have individual Survivor tactics. It's been, in my experience, easier to start at 30 life for one player, then add ten life per additional player. This gives one Survivor a chance at defeating the Horde, and four players more of a reason to work together and plan for crazy Zombie Token conga lines and mass-reanimation spells.
GAME PLAY
First rules change. No infinite combos. They're not fun for everyone, nor is it fair to the Horde. If you want fair, we'll play with 100 Zombie Giant tokens, scoop on the Horde's first turn, then go turn on the Nintendo. That's not what anyone wants in playing Horde magic!
If you have a card that is part of a combo, or single-handedly shuts down the Horde (see White Cheater #1), then you exile that card, and draw a replacement card immediately. This is usually understood by all players, but if there's any question, explain how the card is unfair. Despite the fact you're playing with competitive decks, the format is, by nature, casual; most players will just nod and you'll draw.
The Horde cannot "lose life," as they don't have any to lose. It doesn't make sense, to me, for cards to drain life that doesn't exist. Most cards associated with life lose incorporate life gain, so those spells become life gain spells. If no life gain is involved, only life loss, then the Survivor exile that card and redraws. Feel free to ignore this in your group if you don't agree.
The Horde doesn't get a hand. Ever. If the Horde would be forced to draw a card, it instead reveals to top card of the deck. Non-tokens come into play immediately, and tokens causes the deck to be reshuffled immediately. Do this for each card they would be forced to draw (i.e. skeins). If the Horde would be forced to return permanents to their hand, instead put that card in exile, and cast it on top of the stack at the beginning of their next available main phase. Updated 25.10.11- rules revision
Revealing is also placing spells on the stack. If you reveal 5 tokens, then a Damnation, then cast the Damnation, then the five tokens. It sucks, but there's not many cases where it happens. If it does, take the ten burst damage or counter the black Wrath-effect.
The Horde is mindless, and so is their decision-making Zombies are dumb. If forced to make a decision, as in Trade Secrets, then they roll randomly/flip a coin for it. It's only fair a dumb creature does something randomly.
Planeswalkers. These have been the biggest pain in my arse in trying to perfect this format. Seriously. I have no real answer. If the Horde automatically ignores them, they all go ultimate and Zombies lose. If they always attack them, they soak up WAY too much damage for their (usually) low mana cost. I play with rolling for each zombie as to whether or not they attack the Survivors, or their summoned allies, the Planeswalkers. If they roll to attack a 'walker, and there's more than one out, they roll randomly to attack specific ones. This seems to be effective in my playgroup, but if your playgroup's highly impatient, you may come up with something that works for you; these are just guidelines and suggestions, after all.
So here's how my cutting-edge(ish) deck looks. Feel free to power it up even more or less depending on how it goes in your group. I'd say play it five to six times before tweaking, because of the random and situational performance each time.
The Horde, With Explanations!
------->Threw another Giant in an never looked back. Might add one or two more.
------->I say that no two spells can be cast the same turn. Meaning, no casting AotD, then flashback for a net-gain of 26 zombies in one turn. Can be taken out for higher Threat Level (TL). Syphon Flesh begets RIDICULOUS advantage, so I might take one Grave Titan out for another copy, since the net is usually better. The upshot is that you get to get rid of 2-3 of the Survivors' creatures. Might make room for another AotD; must investigate further.
-------> TL's of these vary, but Living Death has been BY FAR the most potent. DotD has been useful, but the randomosity of it makes me think I should take it out for a second Twilight, or another Living Death. Gravebane has been a great source of trouble for Survivors, giving that extra little umph for win condition. A lot of players have gotten the idea to keep blocking it to stop up the flow of zombie tokens so the Survivors can have a breather and get their footing back. May take it out if this continues to lead to unparalelled victories for the Survivors. The Vultures are flying zombies, which are pretty cool. And they usually end up adding to the Zombie Conga Line (ZCL) the next turn.
-------> PW is ridiculous, but not OP in a competitive environment. Call is REALLY good. The Ghouls are RIDICULOUS. Two is bad news, bears. Looking into throwing in a copy of Grave Pact for added Survivor nuisance.
4 Cackling Fiend
-------> With the survivors getting three turns' setup; Getting CF usually means they discard a good deal of their mid/late game advantage. Usefull in raising the TL of the Horde, as well as slowing down synergy combos, since infinite really isn't too problematic.
-------> Not really a fan of the Moons; I like having another Warchief, since I feel like the Horde rarely gets one out, having it milled from damage. Think I might take out the BM and add another Warchief. Done. Don't like Bad Moons, and I don't think I ever will. Updated 25.10.11- deck revision
-------> The "threats" of the deck are many, but these guys add a living-dead body to them! Soulless is self-explanatory: Get rid of him or have a blocking strategy. Unbreathing has proven itself useful EVERY time he's been dropped, forcing out answers on something that shouldn't be such a threat. Marauders have been pretty sweet, and the Muse useful, but usually taken off the board quick with my rules the way they are. (I houserule that if Zombie Master is on the board, zombies auto-regen. This encourages Survivors to use targeted removal on the Master, since he can't do anything to himself without two of them being on the board.)
-------> These guys are silly good. Especially the Cover.
-------> I looked at the cane and laughed hysterically! It's evil! It resets the Horde's life, effectively. Haven't pulled it off more than once or twice, though, due to it being milled.
EDIT:Also, I keep the deck mono black for flavor, even though I'm well aware of the fact that adding non-black/multi-colored cards could greatly increase the TL of the deck. To each their own.
All feedback and constructive criticism is welcome!
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I agree with your revisions of the rules, it' so easy to break the format without trying and combo is against spirit of what you're trying to do. In a zombie invasion you can't combo off to kill them, you can only stop them or wait it out.
As for your deck, I would add that two Endless Ranks of the Undead is also a good way to power it up, those challenge the survivors more than most cards and can undo a wrath.
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
That said, I do have some suggestions. I think Lord of the Undead and Cemetery Reaper both deserve spots in here, not only as a method to pump the other zombies, but they place an actual body onto the field, unlike Bad Moon for example. Patriarch's Bidding is also a worthy inclusion, because even if you're playing a tribal deck, you generally cannot handle THAT many zombies.
I also usually have the horde cast spells from its "hand" on the main phase after combat if it would have things returned to its hand. As for flashback, I have them cast the spell on the next turn's main phase.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I might entertain the thought of having a higher ratio and more cards flipped, but there's not too many times where I feel like the Horde didn't do a lot of damage on their turn; I'll play with it some. I do have one ERotD, though I haven't had it be relavent enough for two copies.
I agree with mainphase after combat, but may just go with the NEXT AVAILABLE main phase. Bad moon is a filler for a body pump, and may just give in and get another warchief, as I like them more for the automated deck; the other two have more abilities that we need to roll for. Been looking out for a copy of the Bidding, and that's probably what my random filler card is for, honestly.
Keep the ideas coming; bump coming up for the list!
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
If that's the case, why not add more Warchiefs?
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
Sure, here ya go.
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Many thanks to you, good sir.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
On building a Celestial Kirin Stax EDH:
I feel it could work. Might be a tad OP for the combo survivors, or storm players. But it could work. I shall have t acquire a copy and test it out.
These seem like complicated things that almost require decision-making. I understand that my option is more time-consuming, but that's what I feel is the most random and automated. Though I may try a few games with them attacking for just enough lethal, even though I feel it's too easy for them to say respond with a spot removal and have their walker live for one or two mana.
I would like to try it out, too. Have a spare copy you could mail me?
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Here's my post from the other horde thread about planeswalkers being hit by zombies:
As it happens in the damage step, there is no chance for a player to hit a zombie with removal so that their walker lives while others will die. As it has been brought up on how to decide which planeswalkers get hit if there are more than one out... I sugges the weakest dies first. Why the weakest? Well, zombies just want to gnaw on somebodies face. They don't really care whether it's a strong football player or a weak little child. In this regard, the stronger one would (in theory) be able to escape zombies easier. So my thought is that the planeswalker with the lowest loyalty should get hit with the damage first. This also prevents the zombies from only wounding a strong walker when a weak one would have died. Giving the horde the best chance to kill a walker seems like the best option for both gameplay and flavour.
If anybody is interested in making decks to fight the horde, this is what I've come up with for some generals and their "class".
This is kinda interesting, this Horde format. Think I'll tell my zombie loving friend about it :D.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
I like the idea of all attacking damage must be assigned to the "strongest" planeswalker, lethal only, then on to the next, until it gets through to the Survivors. Will bump the frint page tomorrow at some point for that.
I actually got a friend who quit Magic back into it with teaching him the rules for commander, and then for Horde.
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1/1 myr 3/3 Golems and 9/9 Golems 1/1 Pentavites
Yes please.
EDIT:
Gargoyle Tokens too. 3/4 with Flying. I think it would be a blast.
Going for it, the tokens are crazy- 300 Card deck (50 cards per person)
150 tokens:
40 Myr 1/1
15 Thopter 1/1 Flying
5 Pentavite 1/1 Flying
5 Wasp 1/1 Flying
5 Hornet 1/1 Flying Haste
25 Golem 3/3
15 Wurm 1 3/3 Deathtouch
15 Wurm 2 3/3 Lifelink
10 Gargoyle 3/4 Flying
15 Golem 9/9
10 Construct 6/12 Trample
150 Cards (not done I want about 1/6 of the deck as mean cards):
Mean Cards
Nice cards
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
Flashback:
Horde flips Army of the Damned does it immediately get flashbacked? Does it wait until the next turn? Horde has infinite mana so couldn't it immediately flash it back? Does it never flash it back? Thinking might roll a D6 each turn and on a 6 it gets flashbacked. Not sure.
Zombie Tokens:
Do they go to the Horde graveyard? Can they be countered (CMC=0 I would think)? If in the graveyard do they count as creature cards (ala Living Death bringing them back)?
I've constructed a Zed Horde deck but haven't put it into action yet. Like to know what you all think and what you do.
As stated on the first page, the Horde cannot caste the same non-token spell twice in a turn. I play it that they caste it the next available pre-combat main phase.
Tokens created from AotD are tokens, whereas the "tokens" in the deck are played as cards, CMC=0. Any spell in their deck is counterable. And yes; I play so that death brings them back; this is for competitive, tuned decks.
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
And in that, what about Kicker? Does Verdeloth the Ancient create an infinite-1 number of tokens?
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicyyou could always make it so that the spell can only be kicked a number of times equal to the number of turns the horde deck has taken to avoid that whole issue.
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I tried some of the designs other built and it was way too easy to beat. So, we hammered out a harder more aggressive deck that seems to keep the pace more in line with a Zombie Apocalypse. First, when playing with 3 players (the preferred number), we start with 60 life and take 2 turns before the Zombies start their turn. Three was too many. Second, the Zombies get all 100 cards since shaving cards off made it really imbalanced towards the Survivors. Third, Army of the Damned is cast and then immediately flashed back unless someone can Crypt it away - which usually happens. Fourth, Infect is at 10 poison counters. Finally, Yawgmoth Will is nuts.
60 Zombie Tokens
5 Zombie Giant Token
1 Cackling Fiend
1 Cemetery Reaper
1 Death Baron
2 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Lord of the Undead
1 Noxious Ghoul
2 Phyrexian Crusader
1 Scourge Servant
1 Unbreathing Horde
1 Undead Warchief
1 Vengeful Dead
1 Withered Wretch
1 Zombie Master
1 All is Dust
2 Army of the Damned
1 Damnation
1 Decree of Pain
2 Delirium Skeins
1 Living Death
1 Living End
1 Mind Shatter
1 Mind Twist
1 Plague Wind
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Call to the Grave
1 Contamination
1 Endless Ranks of the Dead
1 Grave Pact
1 Leyline of the Void
1 No Mercy
Artifacts - 1
1 Coat of Arms
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
All variants are welcome here! I just ask that we not get into the whole "my list is better" thing, because that simply depends on the metagame. I am anxious to get ahold of a Yawg Will, since I playtested it, and it usually translated to cast, GG. CoA, I am not a fan of, but then again I'm using Feldon's Cane for shi'ggles. You guys find ERotD as useless as I do in this format?
EDH:
:symb::symb::symb: The Horde! :symb::symb::symb:
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
:symwu::symur::symrw: Zedruu the Greathearted :symrw::symur::symwu:
:symwu::symub::symwb: Zur the Enchanter :symwb::symub::symwu:
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Like a U/B 2/1 Flying Zombie Wight token. Or Etc. Something like Boss tokens or just generally beefier tokens. Or evergreen ability tokens.
I think Deathtouch and pro colors would be the best on smaller tokens to create tension. Trample on big guy would be nice. Get around reoccurring chump blockers.
I may make some later.
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
I can't honestly see how someone could claim their list is better than another since the quality of the deck is 100% dependent on the playgroup. This deck would absolutely plow some groups I know and others just brush it off
Yawg's Will early is "meh." But when it's in the bottom half it's funny because if it casts Living End/Death it can backfire.
And yes, Endless Ranks either wins games the Zombies are winning or it does nothing... Winmore for sure.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.