Because his ability requires you to exile legends from your graveyard at two each time you want to cast stuff from your graveyard each turn, you want a large number of cards in your deck to obviously be legendary. It really is a large requirement.
With this in mind 51 cards in the deck are legends, literally over half the deck. This even includes lands of which there are 16 of them that are legends.
Because Kethis, the Hidden Hand can cast legends from the graveyard, there is a dredge theme as your "hand" becomes more like your graveyard.
You want to set this dredge recursion as quickly as possible. Golgari Grave-Troll will dredge the most, but it's likely that you don't want to keep casting it, so there are some legendary discard outlets, so that you can keep discarding your dredgers without casting them out. Entomb or Buried Alive is a quick way to get your dredge engine setup, and in fact even Demonic Tutor or Vampiric Tutor in the early stages could be for Entomb to then put either Golgari Grave-Troll or Life from the Loam to start dredging.
Because Kethis, the Hidden Hand has an inbuilt cost reduction and there are some mana efficient hate-bear style legendary creatures, I've gone for a nasty stax theme.
There is even mass land destruction as Kethis, the Hidden Hand can even allow you to play lands from your graveyard, so you can bounce back immediately by being able to play legendary lands from your graveyard each turn, if you have enough legends to exile.
There are a number of ways to get additional mana from legends to help with the overall stax theme.
There are also legends that have removal as well, and the deck is looking to grind out opponents with overall card advantages as you can play out legends turn after turn if you get a graveyard engine going.
There are 9 planeswalkers in the deck, with some additional support cards in some of the Oaths. Kethis, the Hidden Hand will allow you to cast or keep recasting these from the graveyard if necessary.
Some very real win-conditions are aiming for ultimate's or simply grinding out opponents with value. Liliana of the Veil [-6]: Separate all permanents target player controls into two piles. That player sacrifices all permanents in the pile of their choice. Liliana, Defiant Necromancer [-8]: You get an emblem with "Whenever a creature dies, return it to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the next end step." Liliana Vess [-8]: Put all creature cards from all graveyards onto the battlefield under your control. Nissa, Sage Animist [-7]: Untap up to six target lands. They become 6/6 Elemental creatures. They're still lands. Nissa, Vital Force [-6]: You get an emblem with "Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may draw a card." Nissa, Who Shakes the World [-8]: You get an emblem with "Lands you control have indestructible." Search your library for any number of Forest cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library. Vivien Reid [-8]: You get an emblem with "Creatures you control get +2/+2 and have vigilance, trample, and indestructible." Elspeth, Knight-Errant [-8]: You get an emblem with "Artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and lands you control have indestructible."
There are two legends that can potentially wipe the board of creatures in Kagemaro, First to Suffer and Massacre Girl.
You can look to re-cast these out from graveyard when you need to clear the board, and because Kethis, the Hidden Hand is only three mana, you should be able to work with the commander tax better than most.
Urza's Ruinous Blast is a trump card in the deck as you can keep recasting it as needed from your graveyard and as I've already mentioned over half the deck is legendary, so chances are you'll keep your board while opponents will be mostly destroyed each time.
Other stax like cards with Smallpox and Pox are perfect as you can discard dredge cards from hand, and play lands or creatures that you sacrifice from your graveyard again.
Hermit Druid is a sure fire way to get a sizeable graveyard with only two basic lands in the deck. Underrealm Lich is another heavy hitter as you can keep dumping cards into your graveyard.
Consider Kethis's effect lasts an entire turn, it might be wise to pool resources/mana first before using him, i.e., instead of activating Kethis every turn. aim to activate him once to seal the game, like casting a big Torment of Hailfire.
Consider Kethis's effect lasts an entire turn, it might be wise to pool resources/mana first before using him, i.e., instead of activating Kethis every turn. aim to activate him once to seal the game, like casting a big Torment of Hailfire.
I'm sure you could try and setup more like a Yawgmoth's Will type turns, but literally even Yawgmoth's Will is hard card to pull off in commander, even without the legendary restriction.
There are going to need to be turns you'll have to take off casting cards from your graveyard for sure, but I think consistently using the ability to cast out one or two cards per turn is going to be a much better plan in the long run, otherwise you just run the risk of losing value due to graveyard removal.
Setting up your graveyard and then losing it to a Bojuka Bog is pretty miserable, and instant regret for not just having used your graveyard in previous turns for value.
Don't get me wrong there is going to be a large management of resources for your graveyard. What to exile and what to cast?
Honestly just going to need to play some games before I get a feel for how to really manage this fella. Time will tell.
Consider Kethis's effect lasts an entire turn, it might be wise to pool resources/mana first before using him, i.e., instead of activating Kethis every turn. aim to activate him once to seal the game, like casting a big Torment of Hailfire.
I'm sure you could try and setup more like a Yawgmoth's Will type turns, but literally even Yawgmoth's Will is hard card to pull off in commander, even without the legendary restriction.
There are going to need to be turns you'll have to take off casting cards from your graveyard for sure, but I think consistently using the ability to cast out one or two cards per turn is going to be a much better plan in the long run, otherwise you just run the risk of losing value due to graveyard removal.
Setting up your graveyard and then losing it to a Bojuka Bog is pretty miserable, and instant regret for not just having used your graveyard in previous turns for value.
Don't get me wrong there is going to be a large management of resources for your graveyard. What to exile and what to cast?
Honestly just going to need to play some games before I get a feel for how to really manage this fella. Time will tell.
Comparison with Will is apt, and you’re right about GY removal that’s everywhere today. Do you think self-hexproof is needed, like Tayo?
I tested your deck on Cockatrice, the immediate issue I see is refilling my hand when I hit a streak of lands, but if I manage to activate Hermit once, the game is quite over.
Comparison with Will is apt, and you’re right about GY removal that’s everywhere today. Do you think self-hexproof is needed, like Tayo?
I tested your deck on Cockatrice, the immediate issue I see is refilling my hand when I hit a streak of lands, but if I manage to activate Hermit once, the game is quite over.
I used to run Leyline of Sanctity and Aegis of the Gods in my Karador deck because I was so paranoid about graveyard removal. But the truth is that the cards lining up to save you are not consistent enough to warrant slots. If Teyo, the Shieldmage did something legitimate then it would be a cool option, but you're better off playing the gambling game, and just making sure that you try and get value when you can rather than being greedy imo.
There are only 34 lands in the deck, so I was really thinking flooding wouldn't be a problem. But my hope is to get the dredge plan going and then you're never really drawing cards anyway, with the idea that you play a land from your graveyard each turn if possible.
Or am I misinterpreting what you mean?
Comparison with Will is apt, and you’re right about GY removal that’s everywhere today. Do you think self-hexproof is needed, like Tayo?
I tested your deck on Cockatrice, the immediate issue I see is refilling my hand when I hit a streak of lands, but if I manage to activate Hermit once, the game is quite over.
I used to run Leyline of Sanctity and Aegis of the Gods in my Karador deck because I was so paranoid about graveyard removal. But the truth is that the cards lining up to save you are not consistent enough to warrant slots. If Teyo, the Shieldmage did something legitimate then it would be a cool option, but you're better off playing the gambling game, and just making sure that you try and get value when you can rather than being greedy imo.
There are only 34 lands in the deck, so I was really thinking flooding wouldn't be a problem. But my hope is to get the dredge plan going and then you're never really drawing cards anyway, with the idea that you play a land from your graveyard each turn if possible.
Or am I misinterpreting what you mean?
You read it right. I think I just got unlucky in some games.
I play a near-creatureless Varina deck, and I use a lot of filter spells like Opt to cycle through my deck for mana/counters while exiling those cantrips for zombies. I think Tayo being a legendary serves similar double purpose here, one being protecting your GY and requiring your opponent to deal with it, the other being it could be fuels for other legends when others legends are more vital.
There's also Primevals' Glorious Rebirth as a crazy combo with Hermit Druid. Mana intensive to be sure but it'd surely be funny to do. Add in Akroma's Memorial for haste as well.
There's also Primevals' Glorious Rebirth as a crazy combo with Hermit Druid. Mana intensive to be sure but it'd surely be funny to do. Add in Akroma's Memorial for haste as well.
I did look at Primevals' Glorious Rebirth, but I felt like because you are exiling so much of your graveyard, by the time you get to 7 mana it wouldn't be as effective as you might hope. Better in a build that look to do one or two big turns of casting spells, rather than the way I plan on getting value almost every turn if possible.
Any interest in everyone’s favourite legendary artifact, Mindslaver?
Having used Sorin Markov ultimate multple times with my Yawgmoth deck, I can first hand recommend that it can be one of the more fun things to do in multiplayer commander games as you get to do some outrageous plays that you will never see otherwise.
You could play Ugin, the Ineffable to reduce the cost of casting Mindslaver each time.
Because his ability requires you to exile legends from your graveyard at two each time you want to cast stuff from your graveyard each turn, you want a large number of cards in your deck to obviously be legendary. It really is a large requirement.
With this in mind 51 cards in the deck are legends, literally over half the deck. This even includes lands of which there are 16 of them that are legends.
Because Kethis, the Hidden Hand can cast legends from the graveyard, there is a dredge theme as your "hand" becomes more like your graveyard.
You want to set this dredge recursion as quickly as possible. Golgari Grave-Troll will dredge the most, but it's likely that you don't want to keep casting it, so there are some legendary discard outlets, so that you can keep discarding your dredgers without casting them out.
Entomb or Buried Alive is a quick way to get your dredge engine setup, and in fact even Demonic Tutor or Vampiric Tutor in the early stages could be for Entomb to then put either Golgari Grave-Troll or Life from the Loam to start dredging.
Because Kethis, the Hidden Hand has an inbuilt cost reduction and there are some mana efficient hate-bear style legendary creatures, I've gone for a nasty stax theme.
There is even mass land destruction as Kethis, the Hidden Hand can even allow you to play lands from your graveyard, so you can bounce back immediately by being able to play legendary lands from your graveyard each turn, if you have enough legends to exile.
There are a number of ways to get additional mana from legends to help with the overall stax theme.
There are also legends that have removal as well, and the deck is looking to grind out opponents with overall card advantages as you can play out legends turn after turn if you get a graveyard engine going.
There are 9 planeswalkers in the deck, with some additional support cards in some of the Oaths. Kethis, the Hidden Hand will allow you to cast or keep recasting these from the graveyard if necessary.
Some very real win-conditions are aiming for ultimate's or simply grinding out opponents with value.
Liliana of the Veil [-6]: Separate all permanents target player controls into two piles. That player sacrifices all permanents in the pile of their choice.
Liliana, Defiant Necromancer [-8]: You get an emblem with "Whenever a creature dies, return it to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the next end step."
Liliana Vess [-8]: Put all creature cards from all graveyards onto the battlefield under your control.
Nissa, Sage Animist [-7]: Untap up to six target lands. They become 6/6 Elemental creatures. They're still lands.
Nissa, Vital Force [-6]: You get an emblem with "Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may draw a card."
Nissa, Who Shakes the World [-8]: You get an emblem with "Lands you control have indestructible." Search your library for any number of Forest cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library.
Vivien Reid [-8]: You get an emblem with "Creatures you control get +2/+2 and have vigilance, trample, and indestructible."
Elspeth, Knight-Errant [-8]: You get an emblem with "Artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and lands you control have indestructible."
What I like is that you can aim for the Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Nissa, Who Shakes the World emblems and then your Armageddon and Ravages of War won't effect you.
There are two legends that can potentially wipe the board of creatures in Kagemaro, First to Suffer and Massacre Girl.
You can look to re-cast these out from graveyard when you need to clear the board, and because Kethis, the Hidden Hand is only three mana, you should be able to work with the commander tax better than most.
Urza's Ruinous Blast is a trump card in the deck as you can keep recasting it as needed from your graveyard and as I've already mentioned over half the deck is legendary, so chances are you'll keep your board while opponents will be mostly destroyed each time.
Other stax like cards with Smallpox and Pox are perfect as you can discard dredge cards from hand, and play lands or creatures that you sacrifice from your graveyard again.
Hermit Druid is a sure fire way to get a sizeable graveyard with only two basic lands in the deck.
Underrealm Lich is another heavy hitter as you can keep dumping cards into your graveyard.
1 Kethis, the Hidden Hand
Dredge:
1 Life from the Loam
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Golgari Thug
1 Stinkweed Imp
Legends Discard:
1 Vivien's Arkbow
1 Yawgmoth, Thran Physician
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
Legends Stax:
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Karn, the Great Creator
1 God-Pharaoh's Statue
Legends Mana:
1 Selvala, Heart of the Wilds
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Growing Rites of Itlimoc
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Nissa, Who Shakes the World
Legends Advantage:
1 Reki, the History of Kamigawa
1 Captain Sisay
1 The Gitrog Monster
Legends Tutors:
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Liliana Vess
Legends Protection:
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Journey to Eternity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Legends Removal:
1 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
1 Vivien Reid
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Massacre Girl
1 Urza's Ruinous Blast
1 Oath of Nissa
1 Oath of Gideon
1 Oath of Ajani
Non-legendary Creatures:
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Hermit Druid
1 Underrealm Lich
Land Destruction:
1 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Cataclysm
Stax (Artifacts):
1 Trinisphere
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Null Rod
1 Stony Silence
1 Winter Orb
1 Static Orb
Stax (Enchantments):
1 Root Maze
Sorcery:
1 Smallpox
1 Pox
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Buried Alive
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Realms Uncharted
Instant:
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Nature's Claim
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Force of Vigor
Enchantments:
1 Sylvan Library
Legendary Lands (16)
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Pendelhaven
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Tomb of Urami
1 Urborg
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Inventors' Fair
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Command Tower
1 Savannah
1 Temple Garden
1 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
There are going to need to be turns you'll have to take off casting cards from your graveyard for sure, but I think consistently using the ability to cast out one or two cards per turn is going to be a much better plan in the long run, otherwise you just run the risk of losing value due to graveyard removal.
Setting up your graveyard and then losing it to a Bojuka Bog is pretty miserable, and instant regret for not just having used your graveyard in previous turns for value.
Don't get me wrong there is going to be a large management of resources for your graveyard. What to exile and what to cast?
Honestly just going to need to play some games before I get a feel for how to really manage this fella. Time will tell.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I just wished you'd titled your thread "Legends of the Grave"
Comparison with Will is apt, and you’re right about GY removal that’s everywhere today. Do you think self-hexproof is needed, like Tayo?
I tested your deck on Cockatrice, the immediate issue I see is refilling my hand when I hit a streak of lands, but if I manage to activate Hermit once, the game is quite over.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
There are only 34 lands in the deck, so I was really thinking flooding wouldn't be a problem. But my hope is to get the dredge plan going and then you're never really drawing cards anyway, with the idea that you play a land from your graveyard each turn if possible.
Or am I misinterpreting what you mean?
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
You read it right. I think I just got unlucky in some games.
I play a near-creatureless Varina deck, and I use a lot of filter spells like Opt to cycle through my deck for mana/counters while exiling those cantrips for zombies. I think Tayo being a legendary serves similar double purpose here, one being protecting your GY and requiring your opponent to deal with it, the other being it could be fuels for other legends when others legends are more vital.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
-Modern-
WMartyrProcB
BBurnR
-Commander-
You could play Ugin, the Ineffable to reduce the cost of casting Mindslaver each time.
Another artifact combo that I was thinking about is Ugin's Nexus and Karn, the Great Creator, with some type of way to keep putting Ugin's Nexus into the graveyard, say Kataki, War's Wage for example.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith