Trying to find my way back into MTG after having stopped playing with the release of Mirrodin, I'm immensely interested in the "new" (at least to me) Commander format. I already fiddled around with a Cromat-Domain deck, but I also had an alternative led by Adun Oakenshield for mere endless value and card advantage in mind:
I'm still unsure about some of the creature choices and overall amounts of specific card types, maybe someone might have one or two ideas for improvement?
I know those are all pretty old and partly not competitive cards, stopped playing when Mirrodin hit the shelves back then, but I feel that a format like Commander might go a bit easier on my older cards.
So I'm not the world's greatest deckbuilder, someone will probably be along in a bit to tell you if any aspect is out of whack. However, I can suggest upgrades/replacements for some of the stuff, especially creatures and lands. I'll tag everything as you may or may not have heard of the stuff I'm recommending.
Personally I'd cut the creature based ramp (other than possibly Yavimaya Elder, he's card advantage) for either more mana rocks such as Darksteel Ingot, Rakdos Signet, Golgari Signet and Gruul Signet or spell based ramp such as Cultivate and Kodama's Reach. Reason being, there's a lot of wraths in the average game of commander, and suddenly having three less mana than you expected because some other guy's board needed to die is a real pain.
All in all, looks like a solid first run, mainly hampered by the age of your collection in terms of power level. Kudos on trying to make an older legend work as well, I feel like older generals gets overlooked in favour of newer, shinier toys sometimes.
Wow. Old school magic cards. I love the deck, sir! In general, the previous poster is correct and there are many better cards that have been printed since your collection that are considered strictly better. However, even within the limits of your collection (probably), there are cards you could run that should be considered better optimized for commander. Therefore, I will focus on older cards that you probably have laying around.
Commander is a multiplayer format usually. Cards like verdant force that were pretty good in 1 on 1 become obscene in multiplayer. Do you have a seedborne muse floating around? If so, it will quickly get out of hand with your general and activated abilities.
Of course, I know they are expensive cards, but back in your day they weren't so expensive. Demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, worldly tutor, and gamble and grim monolith would be great additions. I had several of the tutors laying around from my collection back in those days and I wasn't what anyone woul call rich by any means.
krosan restorer is a good card. It's no worse than any other three mana option like ley druid,indeed it may be the potentially strongest out of all of them! Your graveyard will be full quickly. In a similar vein, far wanderings would be a solid addition. It's barely acceptable at regular cost and quickly goes nuts if you have threshold.
IF you have one, exploration would be a good addition. They still haven't made a better version of this card in magic's history. Mana bond or burgeoning are excellent as well and will help you keep up with modern, more powerful cards.
You seem to have already figured out that repeatable or multi-target removable is pretty darned good in a multiplayer format. I would add hull breach and rack and ruin (or possibly shatterstorm) to the list of removal spells. They are still very very good cards and this is a format of vandalblast and cyclonic rift. Plague wind may also be worth it if you can consistently ramp to it. Flexible removal is also good and you might want to consider aftershock as well.
Ramp: Generally, no comments here. However, I would suggest that fertile ground, overgrowth, and wild growth would be good considerations. They die less often than mana dorks and will provide a nice boost to your mana.
Lands: You really want a strip mine in here. It answers a lot of problems in this format. Wasteland, too, if you have one.
Winding canyons would be a good addition if you have one. Instant speed with your creatures is a good thing to have!
Mossfire valley, shadowblood ridge, and gemstone mine are playable, but you really want cards that don't have too many drawbacks. I think that shivan oasis, urborg volcano, llanowar wastes, and darigaaz's caldera are actually better lands in this format. Certainly current decks play common versions of these lands. No reason you can't run what you probably already have and keep up!
Koskun keep could come out as well. I would also consider mountain valley and rocky tar pit. (of course, bloodstained mire, wooded foothills, and aBUR duals if you have them are natural fits). They are slow fetches, but being able to fetch up the appropriate land is always useful even if you wait a turn.
I would consider terrain generator. You're running 28 basic lands and a very mana hungry deck. Any way of putting extra lands onto the battlefield is a very good thing.
For cards to consider removing for some of the additions I mentioned above.
Subversion: There are decks in which this card would be playable. This deck is not one of them. I think you would be better served by necropotence or attrition for card advantage.
Thundermare: Your fatties are pretty solid, but they aren't game endingly good in just one turn. This sort of card is better used as a hail mary kill one opponent sort of card and your only free way to cheat him in is defense of the heart. If you fetch him and one other card, the other card ends up tapped and likely doesn't have haste. Bollocks!! Speaking of haste, fervor or fires of yavimaya would be a great addition here! (or both...)
Tor wauki: Fun card and wish I had one. But, not here. There are decks where you want to force combat where he would be obscene, but you're not doing that here. Visara, the dreadful, shauku endbringer, or avatar of woe would have much more impact and aren't limited to the combat step.
Harbinger of night: Unless you're aiming to kill your own guys, this guy seems like a bad addition. If you're after your opponents weenies and utility creatures, then I would consider goblin sharpshooter. He will very quickly clean up the problems!
Wall of souls: This card doesn't seem very good here. Again, you don't seem to be trying to force combat so this sort of rattlesnake card doesn't seem to do much.
In general: You have a lot of utility guys and powerful removal, but winning will become problematic. To be blunt, you need a few more fatties to end the game. If you have them, dragons are always good. But avatar of fury, avatar of might, thorn elemental, etc. become problems for your opponent in a hurry and end the game quickly.
Guys, thanks A TON for all the time you've spent writing up those tips, tricks and ideas, I can't thank you enough!
Having already made some more changes in between, those were some very helpful tips for the format overall as well as for specific cards. With the cards I still own, I made some considerable changes again (first post is edited).
There are mainly two things I'm still unsure about though:
1) The manabase. I'm still unsure if it is good enough for such a slow multiplayer format, or if I need more ramping and stuff still.
2) Life. I have many effects sacrificing my own life, but not a lot gaining life again. Might this be an issue in this format? (This is the reason I put Subversion in it, albeit being totally out of place)
It looks a lot better, that is for sure! There is a lot of recursion and activated abilities for card advantage. These are what it takes to compete in any format of commander.
To answer your questions:
1. Manabase isn't bad at all. You have 39 lands, and 10 other mana rocks or ways to find the lands. I consider this extremely solid for such a mana hungry deck. I still don't like tarnished citadel, mossfire valley, shadowblood ridge, or temple of the false god. Tarnished citadel will get you mana, but those bolts add up quickly. The others are non starters unless certain conditions are met. I believe basics to be better than these!
2. Lifegain isn't often relevant in edh. It's a resource, use it for card advantage or to win the game. You have constant mists. If you're worried about big damage, then you could add moment's peace as an additional fog (or spore frog/spike weaver which are super good with your general).
Compost is great if there is a lot of black in your meta. If not, it's a dead draw. Same with snake pit. If you want hosers to be ready, I will admit compost might be the best black has to offer, though pygmy kavu may have applications here. However, blue and green are the two most played colors in the format. I think that carpet of flowers is a better blue hoser, though.
These could be other cards. Consider the land destruction of some kind (decimate is the only way I see to hit a problematic land and in this format, there are many) that I mentioned before, haste outlets, or hull breach. You won't be disappointed I promise!
Incidentally, I neglected to mention them before, but the age and nature of your collection suggests you may have some of these:
(might as well read: B, find any creature I want, put it into my hand for RGB)
If you have a withered wretch or tormod's crypt, you might want to add those. Everyone either combos fast or runs interaction/recursion. Being able to snipe a graveyard can be awfully important!
Glad to hear that the basic manabase is looking good. I will keep those lands questioned by you in for the beginning and see for myself how they play out - still have my first commander game before me.
Made some changes to the deck again,following your advice. Especially Night Soil seems like a great new addition - while sniping graveyards (at least for creatures) I can additionally create tokens for sacrificial purposes.
Looking forward to finally test the deck in the coming weeks and see which improvements can be made! =)
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Trying to find my way back into MTG after having stopped playing with the release of Mirrodin, I'm immensely interested in the "new" (at least to me) Commander format. I already fiddled around with a Cromat-Domain deck, but I also had an alternative led by Adun Oakenshield for mere endless value and card advantage in mind:
1 Adun Oakenshield
Creature
1 Mortivore
1 Will-o'-the-Wisp
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Forgotten Ancient
1 Hell's Caretaker
1 Xira Arien
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Spore Frog
1 Thunderscape Familiar
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Nekrataal
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Thunderscape Master
1 Thunderscape Battlemage
1 Anger
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Brawn
1 Genesis
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Avatar of Fury
1 Avatar of Woe
1 Darigaaz, the Igniter
1 Spiritmonger
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Verdant Force
1 Symbiotic Wurm
1 Avatar of Might
1 Night Soil
1 Grave Pact
1 Defense of the Heart
1 Attrition
1 Fertile Ground
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Oversold Cemetery
Land
11 Forest
6 Mountain
1 Mountain Valley
1 Rocky Tar Pit
8 Swamp
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Shivan Oasis
1 Urborg Volcano
1 Terminal Moraine
1 City of Brass
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mossfire Valley
1 Shadowblood Ridge
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Temple of the False God
Artifact
1 Sol Ring
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Crawlspace
1 Phyrexian Vault
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Bloodstone Cameo
1 Planar Portal
1 Troll-Horn Cameo
1 Bottle Gnomes
1 Constant Mists
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Slaughter
1 Harrow
Sorcery
1 Ritual of the Machine
1 Savage Twister
1 Desert Twister
1 Dregs of Sorrow
1 Rampant Growth
1 Plague Wind
1 Lay of the Land
1 Decimate
1 Deep Reconnaissance
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Explosive Vegetation
I'm still unsure about some of the creature choices and overall amounts of specific card types, maybe someone might have one or two ideas for improvement?
I know those are all pretty old and partly not competitive cards, stopped playing when Mirrodin hit the shelves back then, but I feel that a format like Commander might go a bit easier on my older cards.
Thanks in advance folks!
Personally I'd cut the creature based ramp (other than possibly Yavimaya Elder, he's card advantage) for either more mana rocks such as Darksteel Ingot, Rakdos Signet, Golgari Signet and Gruul Signet or spell based ramp such as Cultivate and Kodama's Reach. Reason being, there's a lot of wraths in the average game of commander, and suddenly having three less mana than you expected because some other guy's board needed to die is a real pain.
Change Druid Lyrist out for Caustic Caterpillar. Sure it's one more mana overall, but you can do it the same turn and it'll hit artifacts as well. Ravenous Chupacabra is a straight upgrade on Nekrataal. You aren't running enough Beasts to make Ravenous Baloth worthwhile, maybe swap it for something like Soul of the Harvest for the extra card draw? At he end of the day, more cards is batter than more life. Maybe Fleshbag Marauder/Merciless Executioner over Abyssal Gatekeeper? Oh, I'd probably try and find room for Solemn Simulacrum
There's a few things I'd cut but I've got no specific swap in for them, namely Spiritmonger, Vaevictis Asmadi, Thunderscape Master and Thunderscape Battlemage. There's just better fatties out there nowadays, have a tool around on Gatherer/Scryfall and see what takes your fancy.
Right then, land. Savage Lands in for Koskun Falls would be my first swap, followed swiftly by Evolving Wilds in for Terminal Moraine. Depending on budget as well, there's also the option of running the fetches/shocklands in your colours such as Bloodstained Mire and Blood Crypt.
All in all, looks like a solid first run, mainly hampered by the age of your collection in terms of power level. Kudos on trying to make an older legend work as well, I feel like older generals gets overlooked in favour of newer, shinier toys sometimes.
Dragonlover
Lathliss Dragon Queen - All dragons all the time!
Mono-White Mono-Legends
Ruhan of the Fomori
Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer
Storrev, Devkarin Lich
Commander is a multiplayer format usually. Cards like verdant force that were pretty good in 1 on 1 become obscene in multiplayer. Do you have a seedborne muse floating around? If so, it will quickly get out of hand with your general and activated abilities.
Of course, I know they are expensive cards, but back in your day they weren't so expensive. Demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, worldly tutor, and gamble and grim monolith would be great additions. I had several of the tutors laying around from my collection back in those days and I wasn't what anyone woul call rich by any means.
krosan restorer is a good card. It's no worse than any other three mana option like ley druid,indeed it may be the potentially strongest out of all of them! Your graveyard will be full quickly. In a similar vein, far wanderings would be a solid addition. It's barely acceptable at regular cost and quickly goes nuts if you have threshold.
IF you have one, exploration would be a good addition. They still haven't made a better version of this card in magic's history. Mana bond or burgeoning are excellent as well and will help you keep up with modern, more powerful cards.
You seem to have already figured out that repeatable or multi-target removable is pretty darned good in a multiplayer format. I would add hull breach and rack and ruin (or possibly shatterstorm) to the list of removal spells. They are still very very good cards and this is a format of vandalblast and cyclonic rift. Plague wind may also be worth it if you can consistently ramp to it. Flexible removal is also good and you might want to consider aftershock as well.
Ramp: Generally, no comments here. However, I would suggest that fertile ground, overgrowth, and wild growth would be good considerations. They die less often than mana dorks and will provide a nice boost to your mana.
Lands: You really want a strip mine in here. It answers a lot of problems in this format. Wasteland, too, if you have one.
Winding canyons would be a good addition if you have one. Instant speed with your creatures is a good thing to have!
Mossfire valley, shadowblood ridge, and gemstone mine are playable, but you really want cards that don't have too many drawbacks. I think that shivan oasis, urborg volcano, llanowar wastes, and darigaaz's caldera are actually better lands in this format. Certainly current decks play common versions of these lands. No reason you can't run what you probably already have and keep up!
Koskun keep could come out as well. I would also consider mountain valley and rocky tar pit. (of course, bloodstained mire, wooded foothills, and aBUR duals if you have them are natural fits). They are slow fetches, but being able to fetch up the appropriate land is always useful even if you wait a turn.
I would consider terrain generator. You're running 28 basic lands and a very mana hungry deck. Any way of putting extra lands onto the battlefield is a very good thing.
For cards to consider removing for some of the additions I mentioned above.
Subversion: There are decks in which this card would be playable. This deck is not one of them. I think you would be better served by necropotence or attrition for card advantage.
Thundermare: Your fatties are pretty solid, but they aren't game endingly good in just one turn. This sort of card is better used as a hail mary kill one opponent sort of card and your only free way to cheat him in is defense of the heart. If you fetch him and one other card, the other card ends up tapped and likely doesn't have haste. Bollocks!! Speaking of haste, fervor or fires of yavimaya would be a great addition here! (or both...)
Tor wauki: Fun card and wish I had one. But, not here. There are decks where you want to force combat where he would be obscene, but you're not doing that here. Visara, the dreadful, shauku endbringer, or avatar of woe would have much more impact and aren't limited to the combat step.
Vhati il-dal: See above.
Harbinger of night: Unless you're aiming to kill your own guys, this guy seems like a bad addition. If you're after your opponents weenies and utility creatures, then I would consider goblin sharpshooter. He will very quickly clean up the problems!
Wall of souls: This card doesn't seem very good here. Again, you don't seem to be trying to force combat so this sort of rattlesnake card doesn't seem to do much.
In general: You have a lot of utility guys and powerful removal, but winning will become problematic. To be blunt, you need a few more fatties to end the game. If you have them, dragons are always good. But avatar of fury, avatar of might, thorn elemental, etc. become problems for your opponent in a hurry and end the game quickly.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Having already made some more changes in between, those were some very helpful tips for the format overall as well as for specific cards. With the cards I still own, I made some considerable changes again (first post is edited).
There are mainly two things I'm still unsure about though:
1) The manabase. I'm still unsure if it is good enough for such a slow multiplayer format, or if I need more ramping and stuff still.
2) Life. I have many effects sacrificing my own life, but not a lot gaining life again. Might this be an issue in this format? (This is the reason I put Subversion in it, albeit being totally out of place)
Thanks a ton again! <3
To answer your questions:
1. Manabase isn't bad at all. You have 39 lands, and 10 other mana rocks or ways to find the lands. I consider this extremely solid for such a mana hungry deck. I still don't like tarnished citadel, mossfire valley, shadowblood ridge, or temple of the false god. Tarnished citadel will get you mana, but those bolts add up quickly. The others are non starters unless certain conditions are met. I believe basics to be better than these!
2. Lifegain isn't often relevant in edh. It's a resource, use it for card advantage or to win the game. You have constant mists. If you're worried about big damage, then you could add moment's peace as an additional fog (or spore frog/spike weaver which are super good with your general).
Compost is great if there is a lot of black in your meta. If not, it's a dead draw. Same with snake pit. If you want hosers to be ready, I will admit compost might be the best black has to offer, though pygmy kavu may have applications here. However, blue and green are the two most played colors in the format. I think that carpet of flowers is a better blue hoser, though.
These could be other cards. Consider the land destruction of some kind (decimate is the only way I see to hit a problematic land and in this format, there are many) that I mentioned before, haste outlets, or hull breach. You won't be disappointed I promise!
Incidentally, I neglected to mention them before, but the age and nature of your collection suggests you may have some of these:
- anger
- brawn
- black market
- entomb
(might as well read: B, find any creature I want, put it into my hand for RGB)If you have a withered wretch or tormod's crypt, you might want to add those. Everyone either combos fast or runs interaction/recursion. Being able to snipe a graveyard can be awfully important!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Glad to hear that the basic manabase is looking good. I will keep those lands questioned by you in for the beginning and see for myself how they play out - still have my first commander game before me.
Made some changes to the deck again,following your advice. Especially Night Soil seems like a great new addition - while sniping graveyards (at least for creatures) I can additionally create tokens for sacrificial purposes.
Looking forward to finally test the deck in the coming weeks and see which improvements can be made! =)