The Oona player upgraded his deck and combo'd out with infinite manan 4/6 games. I managed to stop him in one with Phyrexian Revoker and ended up winning that one. I might need some more anti combo techs....
And this is how people end up hating Oona decks. The decks power level is overwhelming the group now, especially with playing only that one deck every game.
Anyway, Pithing Needle is the slightly less squishy version, though it allows mana abilities. But this is more of a problem that should be solved outside of deckbuilding.
Yeah, it's a little unfortunate, but we'll sort it out.
The funny thing about this whole ordeal is, that the Oona player is actually the newest(to the game) player in the group. The 2nd time we sat down to play he already had Isochron Scepter and Dramatic Reversal aswell as Paradox Engine in the deck. That was before he even knew the card Expropriate existed. I guess he's just a natural born spike.
Since then he's added various ways to create infinite mana to the deck and recently started to cut even the likes of Phyrexian Altar, because why sac your Oona tokens for mana, when you can just make infinite mana and win without needing any tokens in the first place.
Also, since Bolas's Citadel was printed recently, that's already in the deck with Top and Necro to go infinite and kill the table with Aetherflux Reservoir.....
Don't worry about the venting — it's frustrating. Been on both sides of that. And it's okay to have that OP deck that you whip out for one game for a quick ego-soothing/cathartic win. They definitely need some other decks.
Don't worry about the venting — it's frustrating. Been on both sides of that. And it's okay to have that OP deck that you whip out for one game for a quick ego-soothing/cathartic win. They definitely need some other decks.
Actually he's currently building a Krenko, Mob Boss deck, which will definitly be different. Still likely very powerful tho, as there are a ton of possible infinite combos in Krenko aswell.
LOL — The good ol' "arms race". Choosing Krenko for their second deck does seem kinda Spikey. The key is: will winning quickly in always-the-same-way become boring for them at some point?
LOL — The good ol' "arms race". Choosing Krenko for their second deck does seem kinda Spikey. The key is: will winning quickly in always-the-same-way become boring for them at some point?
I think it will, but there's no reason not to talk it through first.
Also, I've been thinking about replacing Ashnod's Altar with something else, it just feels like making 2 is so much worse, than making B with Phyrexian Altar or literally any other Sac Outlet with Pitiless Plunderer on the board. Is that crazy?
Lastly, what are your thoughts on playing some other cheap Reanimation spells aside from Reanimate? something like Animate Dead or Victimize/Exhume? I think that might make the deck less reliant on the commander and allow me to play a stronger game if I don't have enough mana available.
Also, I've been thinking about replacing Ashnod's Altar with something else, it just feels like making 2 is so much worse, than making B with Phyrexian Altar or literally any other Sac Outlet with Pitiless Plunderer on the board. Is that crazy?
Definitely not crazy. I don't run Ashnod's in mine, there are several sac outlets I'd add ahead of it if I need more.
Lastly, what are your thoughts on playing some other cheap Reanimation spells aside from Reanimate? something like Animate Dead or Victimize/Exhume? I think that might make the deck less reliant on the commander and allow me to play a stronger game if I don't have enough mana available.
Animate Dead is usually a good one. Cheap cost and works on any graveyard. Necromancy is also an option with it's possibility of temporary instant-speed tradeoff. I don't think I would use Exhume unless I built around it a bit.
I'd say I use it quite a bit, especially with Final Parting. Paying 3BBB and some life to play any creature from your library is pretty great.
Exhume came to mind, because I'm not really in a creature meta and I think I could get away with it pretty easily.
Sometimes I feel like I don't have enough time to actually get to Chainer, since he's quite mana intensive, which made me think about making the deck less commander dependant.
Overall I think the deck would benefit from cutting some of the expensive stuff for some cheaper options. For example I might cut Ashnod's Altar and readd Viscera Seer etc.
Made some experimental changes to the list. None of these are fixed, but they are things I want to try.
Notable cuts:
Caged Sun: Felt clunky at times. Nirkana Revenant can be reanimated, while this neeeds to be cast, which imo makes it much worse. I'll see how I fare without it.
Kokusho, the Evening Star: This one is probably not correct to cut. However, I find that I win less and less with the drain/gain loops. I my attempt to reduce the overall cmc of the deck, I'll try to exclude this for now and see how it goes. Gray Merchant of Asphodel stays, since he's a mana cheaper and a zombie.
Abhorrent Overlord: Doesn't do much on it's own. Wurmcoil Engine combos off just as well as this and is cheaper with an arguably better body.
Disciple of Bolas: Probably wrong to cut this too, but I feel that sometimes reanimating this takes up too much time. If I miss it, I'll add it back in.
Notable Inclusions:
Everflowing Chalice: Wanted a cheaper piece of ramp. Thefact that this can't produce B might be a problem, but if that ends up being the case I can still go for Coldsteel Heart or Fellwar Stone.
Dark Deal: To add to the discard sub-theme. Also this + Sangromancer would solve all the life cost problems.
Thoughtseize: I think this might end up being pretty decent. It can disrupt an expected combo, discarda big creature from an opponents hand to bring back, or worst case discard a Razaketh that got stuck in my own hand.
Rune-Scarred Demon: Great reanimation target that helps find the combo pieces I need.
Praetor's Grasp: Another piece of combo hate. Also if I need a lot of mana, this can go get me another Sol Ring. Should be pretty good.
Dark Deal has been interesting so far. Thoughtseize was surprisingly effective in a multiplayer setting. Praetor's Grasp felt a bit underwhelming, turns out stopping only one of many combos that could win the game on the spot was often not enough.
Praetor's Grasp felt a bit underwhelming, turns out stopping only one of many combos that could win the game on the spot was often not enough.
I guess I haven't had a problem because my friends decks aren't so combo-centric that they have multiple combos in them. Also that I'm usually stealing a bomb or removal instead.
In my long quest to find ways to deal with Ground Seal & Co I'm considering testing Ugin, the Ineffable. Has anyone done any testing with him?
Also, Blast Zone should probably be in this deck, don't know why I didn't add it sooner.
I haven't even been able to get War of the Spark of Modern Horizons cards yet, sigh.
Stuff like Ground Seal and Grafdigger's Cage is why I currently run Oblivion Stone and Unstable Obelisk. Gonti usually gets aimed at the green player in that kind of game, too, and I've had good luck grabbing artifact/enchantment removal with him. Praetor's Grasp can be handy for that, too, if I can produce any color mana (currently can't, though). And then if I don't have any of those to solve the problem, I just try to make it painful for them.
In retrospect I might have been at fault for that, looking through ihs deck I saw that he had to have Grand Architect and Bolas's Citadel in his hand. I ended up exiling his Pili-Pala, since that felt like the most tutoarble wincon he had available with how things were.
Ultimately he won that game with Citadel, but i guess I might not have been able to stop that anyways, since he didn't win with Aetherflux Reservoir (which I would have taken to stop Citadel) but instead had Top and dug for another way to make infinite mana.
He ended up at 5 life, and I had told the rest of the table what was waiting in his hand... One of them still attacked me, bc I had the highest life total, but hey, at least I tried
Personally I hesitate to include too many boardclears in the deck, it often feels like I have the biggest board or at least a creature that I wouldn't want to destroy myself. Oblivion Stone even with fate counters seems incredibly slow.
I'll definitly try out Ugin, the Ineffable. Maybe he's exactly what the deck wants. He does a lot of stuff that is pretty decent for us. Permanent removal is ofc the reason to play him, but making all our artifacts cheaper should provide some nice "ramp" in the later stages of the game. A 4 mana Caged Sun or a 3 mana Gilded Lotus seems pretty strong to me.
His token generation is also nice. Especially since we run a ton of sac outlets anyway and can potentially turn the ability of "make a 2/2" into "draw a card" relatively easily.
This deck definitely needs Yawgmoth, Thran Physician in its life. A free sac outlet that draws cards and takes out random dorks? That card was a godsend to Chainer decks.
This deck definitely needs Yawgmoth, Thran Physician in its life. A free sac outlet that draws cards and takes out random dorks? That card was a godsend to Chainer decks.
It's possible, but if I'm 100% honest, I'm not so sure about it. Here's why:
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician is just a sac outlet for the most part. Sure, he's a pretty good one, but he also costs 4 mana. I like my sac outlets to be a s cheap as possible, so I can easily fit them in durin big reanimation turns in order to not get completely blown out by a removal spell. Yawgmoth can't do this very well unfortunately. I see myself needing to wait an extra turn to first play him and then only do my stuff on the next turn.
Also his proliferating ability seems mostly useless in the deck.
I guess maybe a build with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed which is also certainly very strong in this deck could make better use of Yawgmoth?
The drawing cards part is totally worth the extra mana imo. The proliferate isn't amazing but it is a discard outlet to put something in the GY from your hand.
The drawing cards part is totally worth the extra mana imo. The proliferate isn't amazing but it is a discard outlet to put something in the GY from your hand.
But it's not like the deck struggles with card draw in the first place.
It's also additional life loss, which imo might be an actual problem. Life and Mana are the two resources the deck is most hungry for.
Anyway, Pithing Needle is the slightly less squishy version, though it allows mana abilities. But this is more of a problem that should be solved outside of deckbuilding.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
The funny thing about this whole ordeal is, that the Oona player is actually the newest(to the game) player in the group. The 2nd time we sat down to play he already had Isochron Scepter and Dramatic Reversal aswell as Paradox Engine in the deck. That was before he even knew the card Expropriate existed. I guess he's just a natural born spike.
Since then he's added various ways to create infinite mana to the deck and recently started to cut even the likes of Phyrexian Altar, because why sac your Oona tokens for mana, when you can just make infinite mana and win without needing any tokens in the first place.
Also, since Bolas's Citadel was printed recently, that's already in the deck with Top and Necro to go infinite and kill the table with Aetherflux Reservoir.....
Sry, I'm just venting a bit here
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
But also, as far as in-game handling, a Wydwen, the Biting Gale permission deck, or even this Phelddagrif deck would be an excellent foil to keep them in check.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Actually he's currently building a Krenko, Mob Boss deck, which will definitly be different. Still likely very powerful tho, as there are a ton of possible infinite combos in Krenko aswell.
I suppose I could up the powerlevel of my own deck a bit and go full-on RazaReanimator and combo out before everyone else, maybe something similar to this: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/razabridge-reanimator/
Probably not a smart choice in the long run. We'll just have to convince him to power down the deck.
If only I wasn't one of those blue-hating "I don't want to play the control game" kind of players, things could be so much easier
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I think it will, but there's no reason not to talk it through first.
Anyways, back to Chainer.
Are there any more cards like Entomb, Buried Alive, Final Parting and Corpse Connoisseur?
Also, I've been thinking about replacing Ashnod's Altar with something else, it just feels like making 2 is so much worse, than making B with Phyrexian Altar or literally any other Sac Outlet with Pitiless Plunderer on the board. Is that crazy?
Lastly, what are your thoughts on playing some other cheap Reanimation spells aside from Reanimate? something like Animate Dead or Victimize/Exhume? I think that might make the deck less reliant on the commander and allow me to play a stronger game if I don't have enough mana available.
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
Definitely not crazy. I don't run Ashnod's in mine, there are several sac outlets I'd add ahead of it if I need more.
Animate Dead is usually a good one. Cheap cost and works on any graveyard. Necromancy is also an option with it's possibility of temporary instant-speed tradeoff. I don't think I would use Exhume unless I built around it a bit.
Do you use Reanimate often?
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Exhume came to mind, because I'm not really in a creature meta and I think I could get away with it pretty easily.
Sometimes I feel like I don't have enough time to actually get to Chainer, since he's quite mana intensive, which made me think about making the deck less commander dependant.
Overall I think the deck would benefit from cutting some of the expensive stuff for some cheaper options. For example I might cut Ashnod's Altar and readd Viscera Seer etc.
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
1x Chainer, Dementia Master
Card Draw (7):
1x Skullclamp
1x Night's Whisper
1x Sign in Blood
1x Read the Bones
1x Dark Deal
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Necropotence
Tutors (7):
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Beseech the Queen
1x Dimir House Guard
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1x Final Parting
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Razaketh, the Foulblooded
Ramp (12):
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Sol Ring
1x Expedition Map
1x Wayfarer's Bauble
1x Dark Ritual
1x Soldevi Adnate
1x Extraplanar Lens
1x Bog Witch
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Crypt Ghast
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Nirkana Revenant
1x Carrion Feeder
1x Viscera Seer
1x Spawning Pit
1x Altar of Dementia
1x Phyrexian Altar
1x Ashnod's Altar
Alternate Recursion (4):
1x Reanimate
1x Myr Retriever
1x Junk Diver
1x Yawgmoth's Will
Lifegain/Lifedrain (5):
1x Blood Artist
1x Zulaport Cutthroat
1x Exsanguinate
1x Sangromancer
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Grave Fuel (3):
1x Entomb
1x Stitcher's Supplier
1x Buried Alive
Removal and Permission (11):
1x Thoughtseize
1x Withering Boon
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Plaguecrafter
1x Oppression
1x Praetor's Grasp
1x Sudden Spoiling
1x Ravenous Chupacabra
1x Mindslicer
1x Painful Quandary
1x Meteor Golem
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Living Death
1x Massacre Wurm
Utility/Other (4)
1x Gravecrawler
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Pitiless Plunderer
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Lands (36):
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Deserted Temple
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Geier Reach Sanitarium
1x High Market
26x Snow-Covered Swamp
Made some experimental changes to the list. None of these are fixed, but they are things I want to try.
Notable cuts:
Caged Sun: Felt clunky at times. Nirkana Revenant can be reanimated, while this neeeds to be cast, which imo makes it much worse. I'll see how I fare without it.
Kokusho, the Evening Star: This one is probably not correct to cut. However, I find that I win less and less with the drain/gain loops. I my attempt to reduce the overall cmc of the deck, I'll try to exclude this for now and see how it goes. Gray Merchant of Asphodel stays, since he's a mana cheaper and a zombie.
Abhorrent Overlord: Doesn't do much on it's own. Wurmcoil Engine combos off just as well as this and is cheaper with an arguably better body.
Disciple of Bolas: Probably wrong to cut this too, but I feel that sometimes reanimating this takes up too much time. If I miss it, I'll add it back in.
Notable Inclusions:
Everflowing Chalice: Wanted a cheaper piece of ramp. Thefact that this can't produce B might be a problem, but if that ends up being the case I can still go for Coldsteel Heart or Fellwar Stone.
Dark Deal: To add to the discard sub-theme. Also this + Sangromancer would solve all the life cost problems.
Thoughtseize: I think this might end up being pretty decent. It can disrupt an expected combo, discarda big creature from an opponents hand to bring back, or worst case discard a Razaketh that got stuck in my own hand.
Rune-Scarred Demon: Great reanimation target that helps find the combo pieces I need.
Praetor's Grasp: Another piece of combo hate. Also if I need a lot of mana, this can go get me another Sol Ring. Should be pretty good.
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
Also, Blast Zone should probably be in this deck, don't know why I didn't add it sooner.
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
I haven't even been able to get War of the Spark of Modern Horizons cards yet, sigh.
Stuff like Ground Seal and Grafdigger's Cage is why I currently run Oblivion Stone and Unstable Obelisk. Gonti usually gets aimed at the green player in that kind of game, too, and I've had good luck grabbing artifact/enchantment removal with him. Praetor's Grasp can be handy for that, too, if I can produce any color mana (currently can't, though). And then if I don't have any of those to solve the problem, I just try to make it painful for them.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Ultimately he won that game with Citadel, but i guess I might not have been able to stop that anyways, since he didn't win with Aetherflux Reservoir (which I would have taken to stop Citadel) but instead had Top and dug for another way to make infinite mana.
He ended up at 5 life, and I had told the rest of the table what was waiting in his hand... One of them still attacked me, bc I had the highest life total, but hey, at least I tried
Personally I hesitate to include too many boardclears in the deck, it often feels like I have the biggest board or at least a creature that I wouldn't want to destroy myself. Oblivion Stone even with fate counters seems incredibly slow.
I'll definitly try out Ugin, the Ineffable. Maybe he's exactly what the deck wants. He does a lot of stuff that is pretty decent for us. Permanent removal is ofc the reason to play him, but making all our artifacts cheaper should provide some nice "ramp" in the later stages of the game. A 4 mana Caged Sun or a 3 mana Gilded Lotus seems pretty strong to me.
His token generation is also nice. Especially since we run a ton of sac outlets anyway and can potentially turn the ability of "make a 2/2" into "draw a card" relatively easily.
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
It's possible, but if I'm 100% honest, I'm not so sure about it. Here's why:
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician is just a sac outlet for the most part. Sure, he's a pretty good one, but he also costs 4 mana. I like my sac outlets to be a s cheap as possible, so I can easily fit them in durin big reanimation turns in order to not get completely blown out by a removal spell. Yawgmoth can't do this very well unfortunately. I see myself needing to wait an extra turn to first play him and then only do my stuff on the next turn.
Also his proliferating ability seems mostly useless in the deck.
I guess maybe a build with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed which is also certainly very strong in this deck could make better use of Yawgmoth?
I think I wouldn't play him for the same reason that I don't play Yahenni, Undying Partisan
Then again I might also be completely wrong on this
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
But it's not like the deck struggles with card draw in the first place.
It's also additional life loss, which imo might be an actual problem. Life and Mana are the two resources the deck is most hungry for.
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim