I finally put this deck together last week and played one game with it. I don't have a thread for it yet as a)I want to get a couple more games with it to make sure it is something I want to keep around (I always get "bored" with Tribal decks) and b) I will likely just make this one of my first "new" threads on MTGNexus.
While my list is quite a bit different outside of the zombies themselves (and even some zombies are different) I had a few things that stood out to me:
Alhammarret's Archive is a beast. I had picked one up based on a comment in this thread and, at least in the one game I played, it put in a ton of work. It not only got me the cards I wanted but it also filled my graveyard for some activations of Gravespawn Sovereign later on. I was even building towards a Patriarch's Bidding in my hand so I could mass reanimate everything. I ended up winning before getting to do that
Gray Merchant of Asphodel gained me 28 life in a 3 player game which the Archive doubled to 56 life. I went from 16 life to 72 and obviously had a massive board. The other two players kind of hung it up after that. I actually don't run Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in the deck even though it is mostly black but this situation shows I probably could. I only have 4 lands that don't produce color (and that counts Phyrexian Tower just in case I don't have a creature at the right time) so adding another "colorless" land might not be the worst option since it will very often at least produce 1 black.
Dreadhorde Invasion is kind of nice to have as it gives me a zombie every turn (or buffs one up) and the synergy with Soul Diviner is pretty good. Especially with Archive as well. I ended up constantly removing counters from my Army to keep my hand full.
Soul Diviner is basically the biggest reason I kept Noosegraf Mob, and the tokens it gives are also pretty good, but I think blinx28 has the right idea on lowering the curve and the Mob may not be nearly as good. My curve is at 3.23 right now with 3 six drops and 11 five drops. The five drops are on the high side but they include things like the aforementioned Archive, Kindred Discovery, Havengul Lich, Grimgrin, Gray Merchant, and God-Eternals Bontu and Oketra (among others).
I think the power of the 5 drops is enough to warrant the curve being a little high. I do run 39 lands, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, 2 Signets, and 2 Talismans. I do not run the non-black option for either set (so no Azorius Signet or Talisman of Progress). So, I am likely on the high side for mana sources as well, but as I just built the deck, I erred on the side of caution to ensure I could hit my land drops. Varina helps us draw out of mana flooding, but she would also help us draw out of mana screw too I suppose.
I am interested in what people think of Unsettled Mariner. It is not a card I thought of but it seems like a "decent" protection card. My thought has been that this deck wants to be pretty aggressive so I am not sure on the value of a card that doesn't do much to advance our game plan and only sort of protects us against stuff. I guess I prefer Patriarch's Bidding and Living Death to get all our stuff back after a wrath (though we are more susceptible to grave hate then).
I have seen a lot of comments on Tombstone Stairwell and I decided to omit it in mine to start with. I think an easy swap could be the Stairwell for the Mob as the Stairwell should produce a lot more zombies. Now, I don't run eitherAltar but I think it can still put in some good work even if it is a little tougher to keep around in my case.
I can see where Archfiend of Ifnir would be really good in this deck, but I really don't like the aesthetic of it not being a zombie (I am already stretching that for Burnished Hart and Solemn). I might have to suck it up as that card does seem pretty synergistic with the deck.
As for lands, I really like Vault of the Archangel and I can't believe I forgot about Unclaimed Territory. I have High Market in my list and really, I don't know that it is the greatest here. I think I would rather have something like the Vault even if High Market could sometimes save my dudes from being exiled. Especially since I have creature based sac outlets already. Path of Ancestry also makes sense but a) it comes into play tapped and b) doesn't have a foil (yet). I might have to think on this one too.
As an aside, your card tag for Path of Ancestry seems to have an apostrophe at the end of it for some reason so the card tag doesn't work.
Alhammarret's Archive is a beast. I had picked one up based on a comment in this thread and, at least in the one game I played, it put in a ton of work. It not only got me the cards I wanted but it also filled my graveyard for some activations of Gravespawn Sovereign later on. I was even building towards a Patriarch's Bidding in my hand so I could mass reanimate everything. I ended up winning before getting to do that
Yeah, it's pretty good draw power. The life gain I'm not so worried about, there's redundancy in my list to some extent. The issue I have with Archive is that when we have draw in play it's great, but its pretty dependent on other pieces to do pretty well anything. I guess if I end up picking up a copy I'll try it out here, but I'm in no rush personally.
Gray Merchant of Asphodel gained me 28 life in a 3 player game which the Archive doubled to 56 life. I went from 16 life to 72 and obviously had a massive board. The other two players kind of hung it up after that. I actually don't run Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in the deck even though it is mostly black but this situation shows I probably could. I only have 4 lands that don't produce color (and that counts Phyrexian Tower just in case I don't have a creature at the right time) so adding another "colorless" land might not be the worst option since it will very often at least produce 1 black.
I've just added Gary back in myself. I haven't played in the last couple of weeks, purely on account of being rather busy at work, but I fully expect it to be an excellent addition. I don't run Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx either, but I could totally see a place for it.
Dreadhorde Invasion is kind of nice to have as it gives me a zombie every turn (or buffs one up) and the synergy with Soul Diviner is pretty good. Especially with Archive as well. I ended up constantly removing counters from my Army to keep my hand full.
I haven't seen Soul Diviner come up, to be honest. I have since removed Dreadhorde Invasion though. There's nice synergy between these two, but Invasion was otherwise quite slow and I didn't find it really giving me a ton of advantage. It's nice early advantage, but I was left a little disappointed.
Soul Diviner is basically the biggest reason I kept Noosegraf Mob, and the tokens it gives are also pretty good, but I think blinx28 has the right idea on lowering the curve and the Mob may not be nearly as good. My curve is at 3.23 right now with 3 six drops and 11 five drops. The five drops are on the high side but they include things like the aforementioned Archive, Kindred Discovery, Havengul Lich, Grimgrin, Gray Merchant, and God-Eternals Bontu and Oketra (among others).
There's a pretty good justification for removing Mob. It's expensive to cast for sure. I like it purely for being able to grow an army outside of my turn, and it's nice and cute with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. That being said, 4BB is a lot, and my 5 CMC slot is pretty full.
I think the power of the 5 drops is enough to warrant the curve being a little high. I do run 39 lands, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, 2 Signets, and 2 Talismans. I do not run the non-black option for either set (so no Azorius Signet or Talisman of Progress). So, I am likely on the high side for mana sources as well, but as I just built the deck, I erred on the side of caution to ensure I could hit my land drops. Varina helps us draw out of mana flooding, but she would also help us draw out of mana screw too I suppose.
I agree here. The 5 slot is full, but Varina sort of allows us to keep what we need, and toss what we don't, so you'll sort of always have the best hand you can with the cards available at any given time. Choices. I've definitely found the list a little quicker with more rocks present, although there's probably never gonna be a Crypt in mine. I don't think it overly hurts to run heavy on lands either. Often I find myself leaving a land drop or two in hand and tossing surplus lands so that I can turn them into critters - either directly via Zombie Infestation or indirectly once they hit the yard with Varina - or both.
I am interested in what people think of Unsettled Mariner. It is not a card I thought of but it seems like a "decent" protection card. My thought has been that this deck wants to be pretty aggressive so I am not sure on the value of a card that doesn't do much to advance our game plan and only sort of protects us against stuff. I guess I prefer Patriarch's Bidding and Living Death to get all our stuff back after a wrath (though we are more susceptible to grave hate then).
I'm interested to hear back too. Personally I think it's meta dependent; if you see a lot of control decks it's a lock. Otherwise it might be a little vanilla. I guess it depends if there's an empty slot at 2 in the build. My current flex spot there is Lazotep Reaver. I have yet to test it, but I can't see it being astoundingly good.
I have seen a lot of comments on Tombstone Stairwell and I decided to omit it in mine to start with. I think an easy swap could be the Stairwell for the Mob as the Stairwell should produce a lot more zombies. Now, I don't run either Altar but I think it can still put in some good work even if it is a little tougher to keep around in my case.
It's strong if you're building around it. I guess the difference is it needs at least a little bit of leaning into. Totally worth it if you can though. If you run lords, it's great, if you run aristocrats it's great, it just ends games almost on the spot. Mob obviously doesn't, so it's clearly a stronger pick there.
I can see where Archfiend of Ifnir would be really good in this deck, but I really don't like the aesthetic of it not being a zombie (I am already stretching that for Burnished Hart and Solemn). I might have to suck it up as that card does seem pretty synergistic with the deck.
It really is a solid add. I don't like that it's not a zombie either, despite that this isn't intentionally a tribal build (it just works best that way). Being able to irrevocably clear the board is incredibly strong, and if you don't need it it cycles too.
As for lands, I really like Vault of the Archangel and I can't believe I forgot about Unclaimed Territory. I have High Market in my list and really, I don't know that it is the greatest here. I think I would rather have something like the Vault even if High Market could sometimes save my dudes from being exiled. Especially since I have creature based sac outlets already. Path of Ancestry also makes sense but a) it comes into play tapped and b) doesn't have a foil (yet). I might have to think on this one too.
Vault is awesome. It's a rattlesnake that people forget about all the time, and it keeps life totals adequate. It's expensive to activate, but totally worth the add. I got the idea from a previous Ghave, Guru of Spores deck where it was incredibly strong, and it's been top notch here too. Path of Ancestry I'm fairly happy with purely for the scry. ETB tapped is meh, but it's been good nonetheless.
As an aside, your card tag for Path of Ancestry seems to have an apostrophe at the end of it for some reason so the card tag doesn't work.
Thanks for the tip, have just amended. I'll keep an eye out for your list, too.
Normally this is just a great recursion spell, but with Varina’s ability it essentially reads “pay 2 life, pay 2 mana: draw a card” whenever she activates from attack triggers by stacking your hand with creatures you can repitch to the graveyard.
It's not a bad idea, at least in terms of mitigating the down side of Varina's attack trigger. It's a little slow and there's probably better things to do with 1B but I can't see why it isn't a decent way to get value out of both cards. I love Phyrexian Reclamation, it's great value, and it could probably do nice things even without Varina. Plays nicely with Diregraf Colossus and God-Eternal Oketra , too, so there's that. Would also be a nice mana sink in response to Bojuka Bog activations and such.
As for whether there's room....I honestly don't know. I've got a few bits on the way from Modern Horizons and a birthday order, so my list is in the ether currently. But I think if you have flex spots here or there there's a good chance it could fit nicely.
As far as additions go, I'm tossing up whether Hall of Heliod's Generosity and Mistveil Plains would be worth adding to the land base here. Hall picks up my cumulative upkeep enchantments, which saves me a bit of mana, as well as some of the more clutch enchantments like Smothering Tithe (which you can guarantee gets blown up). Mistveil would be more to have the possibility of saving bits and pieces from exile, or possibly recurring instants/sorceries. Currently there's only one piece that can drag them back out, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, though, so it might be a waste of time even exploring that space. You never know though, switching a land out is a reasonably small deck space to manipulate.
It's not a bad idea, at least in terms of mitigating the down side of Varina's attack trigger. It's a little slow and there's probably better things to do with 1B but I can't see why it isn't a decent way to get value out of both cards. I love Phyrexian Reclamation, it's great value, and it could probably do nice things even without Varina. Plays nicely with Diregraf Colossus and God-Eternal Oketra , too, so there's that. Would also be a nice mana sink in response to Bojuka Bog activations and such.
As for whether there's room....I honestly don't know. I've got a few bits on the way from Modern Horizons and a birthday order, so my list is in the ether currently. But I think if you have flex spots here or there there's a good chance it could fit nicely
I do think Reclamation might be pushing it in this build mostly because I don't know that there are a ton of high impact creatures we are getting back. Which means that it seems better as a way to build up a swarm again and that is a large investment. I think Patriarch's Bidding, Living Death, and Command the Dreadhorde are just better to get an army back.
In regards to using it so you have cards to pitch to Varina, I don't know that is enough reason to slot it in. I think just raw card draw would do the same thing.
It is definitely not a bad card, and it might be correct to slot it in to allow for a bit more resilience, but I think there may be better options.
As far as additions go, I'm tossing up whether Hall of Heliod's Generosity and Mistveil Plains would be worth adding to the land base here. Hall picks up my cumulative upkeep enchantments, which saves me a bit of mana, as well as some of the more clutch enchantments like Smothering Tithe (which you can guarantee gets blown up). Mistveil would be more to have the possibility of saving bits and pieces from exile, or possibly recurring instants/sorceries. Currently there's only one piece that can drag them back out, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, though, so it might be a waste of time even exploring that space. You never know though, switching a land out is a reasonably small deck space to manipulate.
Of the two, the Hall seems better if only because Mistveil seems less likely to ever "work". That is, you only have 6 permanents that are white (granted, one is Varina) which means that you only have 5 other cards in your remaining 98 to get you to two white permanents to let you activate it. It seems like those are slim odds to do what you want with it.
I do think Reclamation might be pushing it in this build mostly because I don't know that there are a ton of high impact creatures we are getting back. Which means that it seems better as a way to build up a swarm again and that is a large investment. I think Patriarch's Bidding, Living Death, and Command the Dreadhorde are just better to get an army back.
In regards to using it so you have cards to pitch to Varina, I don't know that is enough reason to slot it in. I think just raw card draw would do the same thing.
It is definitely not a bad card, and it might be correct to slot it in to allow for a bit more resilience, but I think there may be better options.
I mean personally, I prefer straight to battlefield reanimation, but if you don't have Living Death or Patriarch's Bidding then Reclamation possibly could pull some weight. That being said, there's a lot of options for cheap reanimation these days, so it's probably a moot point. Victimize, Apprentice Necromancer, Rise from the Grave or the functionally better Bond of Revival. Take your pick. I guess if you're wanting a mana cheap, instant speed option it could be reasonable though.
Of the two, the Hall seems better if only because Mistveil seems less likely to ever "work". That is, you only have 6 permanents that are white (granted, one is Varina) which means that you only have 5 other cards in your remaining 98 to get you to two white permanents to let you activate it. It seems like those are slim odds to do what you want with it.
Valid point. Let's flag that idea, I'd forgotten about the use restriction. I am still interested in options for recurring instants and sorceries, it just seems there's not much in the way of options there.
I agree it seems solid. It is low on the curve which is nice and works to (hopefully) make sure our opponents have less life than us when we activate Shepherd of Rot. I already know I am taking out Noosegraf Mob. This might just be the card to slot in for it for now.
Yeah, this one will likely come in for Reaver for me. Mob may still go, but I really don't know until my orders arrive and I lay the deck out for a look over. Command the Dreadhorde will likely come out, purely because I have a Patriarch's Bidding and Zombie Apocalypse on the way, both of which are probably superior here (Bidding easily is, Apocalypse mostly is aside from missing the walker reanimation). Otherwise, I'm not sure what else gets the chop until I can eyeball what's in and what needs to be in. It's weird, they just need to be in front of me to work it through.
Kind of a shame that we got all these enticing-looking zombie toys from WotS, and almost immediately they feel like they're coming back out.
Reaver is definitely weaker than this, but the 2-for-1 on bodies is still attractive. Not to mention, the cards work well together.
Soul Diviner doesn't have that many targets
How have you found Gisa? She always struck me as being slow, and as a non-zombie, a bit more fragile (dies with Noxious Ghoul around, and doesn't come back with Bidding).
Have you ever used Forgotten Creation's discard ability? I guess with Ilfnir out it would be useful, but in every game I've drawn it, I've had something else to play, and it has always just gotten pitched to a Varina wheel.
Oketra, I've only drawn once, but had to discard it after a few turns of not having the WW to cast it. Personally, I've tried avoiding anything with WW or UU, even with a solid mana base.
So, for instance, I'm running Toxic Deluge rather than Bust or Supreme Verdict. Then again, I haven't brought in Smothering Tithe yet, either.
How have you found Gisa? She always struck me as being slow, and as a non-zombie, a bit more fragile (dies with Noxious Ghoul around, and doesn't come back with Bidding).
I actually haven't had her come up yet, strangely enough. I've been pretty busy at work, so it's been hard to squeeze in any playtime, but when I have played, she just hasn't cropped up.
Have you ever used Forgotten Creation's discard ability? I guess with Ilfnir out it would be useful, but in every game I've drawn it, I've had something else to play, and it has always just gotten pitched to a Varina wheel.
I have, but admittedly it's infrequently. The other decent side of Creation is that it has combat evasion, so there's that.
Oketra, I've only drawn once, but had to discard it after a few turns of not having the WW to cast it. Personally, I've tried avoiding anything with WW or UU, even with a solid mana base.
I've had her online a couple times, and she's pretty decent provided you have critters to cast. It's a shame she doesn't trigger from reanimation, but oh well.
So, for instance, I'm running Toxic Deluge rather than Bust or Supreme Verdict. Then again, I haven't brought in Smothering Tithe yet, either.
Initially, I had issues here so would have done the same, but I haven't seen the need recently, given a few mana fixing rocks and expanding the land options. Which is great because Deluge is way overpriced. It's excellent, but I'm not paying market price for it right now.
What is Aminatou doing for you?
She's a little bit of filtering, but mostly here to reset walkers and get extra triggers from things like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Bojuka Bog, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Mystic Remora and Tombstone Stairwell. That sort of thing. She does pretty well in that respect, just ekeing extra value from my key pieces and making my things go a little further. Bare minimum she can give me fresh rocks for a little extra mana or an extra blocker where needed.
I kind of want to just swap Corpse Knight for Vengeful Dead, but it works too well with Tombstone Stairwell...perhaps that just a one-off interaction that i shouldn't put so much weight on.
More likely just an addition since it adds another combo outlet for Gravecrawler, even though that's not the main win-con (no strict tutors in my build).
If Phyrexian Reclamation doesn't end up being the instant speed hand refiller that i hope it can be, this is the value swap. Don't really need slow recursion---always go forward until we dump them all out.
I kind of want to just swap Corpse Knight for Vengeful Dead, but it works too well with Tombstone Stairwell...perhaps that just a one-off interaction that i shouldn't put so much weight on.
To my mind, they're both great, and redundancy is never a bad thing if you're not running tutors. Either one of them could end the game with Tombstone Stairwell. If I were to swap it out for any effect similar to this it would be Shepherd of Rot. But even that is pretty damn strong, so...I dunno.
More likely just an addition since it adds another combo outlet for Gravecrawler, even though that's not the main win-con (no strict tutors in my build).
Not sure if you run Corpse Connoisseur but it's not a strict tutor, and Gravecrawler was my go-to target to Entomb with this every single time. It's a bit high on the curve, but then 4BB for 2 bodies isn't all that bad either, especially considering how gross Gravecrawler can be, and both can be recurred. Unearth is weird, but it's not awful either. I was actually a little bummed to be pulling Connoisseur out of my build, it was such a nice interaction.
Not sure if you run Corpse Connoisseur but it's not a strict tutor, and Gravecrawler was my go-to target to Entomb with this every single time. It's a bit high on the curve, but then 4BB for 2 bodies isn't all that bad either, especially considering how gross Gravecrawler can be, and both can be recurred. Unearth is weird, but it's not awful either. I was actually a little bummed to be pulling Connoisseur out of my build, it was such a nice interaction.
I had Corpse Connoisseur in for awhile helping me bring out Wonder as well. Lost it because it's a pretty narrow tutor, high cmc as you well know, and I'm learning I don't necessarily want my opponents seeing me dump a Gravecrawler and turn their heat my way.
As for Corpse Knight , you're right about Vengeful Dead, it's just a shame it costs 4CMC for the same effect. Maybe I developed a premature attachment to Unsettled Mariner, but he actually is a real stopper for anyone trying to combo-off with an activated ability that targets (like Niv-Mizzet, Parun) if that's something you see in local metas.
I'm also picking up Patriarch's Bidding to bring my mass recursion total to 3 (y'all make it sound so juicy). Think that will ensure I see at least one graveyard dumper every game if Varina is active a few turns. I'm going to replace Victimize even though it's excellent since I like the balance of effects i'm currently at. Just keeps my lines of play simpler too. Less temptation to spring the coop too early.
I had Corpse Connoisseur in for awhile helping me bring out Wonder as well. Lost it because it's a pretty narrow tutor, high cmc as you well know, and I'm learning I don't necessarily want my opponents seeing me dump a Gravecrawler and turn their heat my way.
Yeah, that's fair. Unless you can play him straight away it's a bit of a telegraph. And besides, at instant speed Entomb really isn't all that expensive anymore if you feel you want to run it.
As for Corpse Knight , you're right about Vengeful Dead, it's just a shame it costs 4CMC for the same effect. Maybe I developed a premature attachment to Unsettled Mariner, but he actually is a real stopper for anyone trying to combo-off with an activated ability that targets (like Niv-Mizzet, Parun) if that's something you see in local metas.
Yeah, 3B is expensive, but it really does have a devastating effect. It's weird though, each of the zombie aristocrats is slightly different in how they trigger. Corpse Knight and Wayward Severnt work well with reanimation or mass blink, Vengeful and Belcher work well with wipes and sac effects, and Diregraf does too, but in a more narrow way. Shepherd of Rot is just the black sheep of the lot in that it needs haste or a chance to untap, which definitely makes it the least useful of the lot - but when you can use it, it's strong.
I'm also picking up Patriarch's Bidding to bring my mass recursion total to 3 (y'all make it sound so juicy). Think that will ensure I see at least one graveyard dumper every game if Varina is active a few turns. I'm going to replace Victimize even though it's excellent since I like the balance of effects i'm currently at. Just keeps my lines of play simpler too. Less temptation to spring the coop too early.
This has been it for me too. Redundancy is key, and that's why I'm picking up Bidding and Apocalypse. I had a game the other weekend where I was waiting for Living Death for a win, but being the only card of its type wishing for it is a crapshoot. I ended up losing with a full graveyard and LD 2 draws away. I like Command the Dreadhorde too, but it does gouge a little, so I'll probably end up pulling it out.
Creation's combat "evasion" doesn't strike me as being very good. It can't be blocked by creatures power 4 or greater to start, which means most decks can chump it all day, and a some can block favorably, and that's before it gets pumped by the assortment of lords in the list. I think it will be exceedingly rare for a 3/3 unblockable creature to be relevant.
3 mass reanimation spells seems like a good number. I'm trying out Rot Hulk as a sort of 4th, just because he looks cool and is another zombie himself (plus, reanimating him some other way--Havenghoul--is going to be a lot of value).
3 mass reanimation spells seems like a good number. I'm trying out Rot Hulk as a sort of 4th, just because he looks cool and is another zombie himself (plus, reanimating him some other way--Havenghoul--is going to be a lot of value).
Rot Hulk is awesome, but it’s expensive price and cmc, so I just went for Bidding.
Going to pull Fleshbag Marauder to make room...edict effect is great but off theme for my focuses. Also a leftover from my old dimir build that could more reliably recast it every turn.
Yeah Fleshbag seems reasonable to remove. Unless you’re building around a sac theme it’s an easy cut. Rot Hulk I haven’t pursued purely because it’s so damn hard to find outside of the set it was released in.
No more definite locks from Core 2020 yet, but Field of the Dead is a possible consideration for those running a suitable land suite. ETB tapped and colorless production is a shame, so it’s probably at least a little suboptimal, but you could do worse than getting a free token per turn I guess. I probably won’t add, but with fetches, duals and shocks I can definitely see how it’d be decent.
Meh, between illness and work I've been out of the loop for so long, and now I return to find three new sets and this website on its way to closing/moving elsewhere/whatever the hell is going on. It's nice to see a topic I was fond of still going, in these confusing times.
So, how has Varina been doing for you these days? I wanted to stop by and ask if you've been testing the God-Eternals, as both Bontu and Oketra feel like they'd do a lot of work for this deck, the latter by creating even more zombies and the former by providing even more card draw, potentially to hilarious results (I'm pretty sure I can put together a combo to draw your deck with her and Varina given the time, which could lead to a slew of new and exciting potential wincons).
Welcome back! Glad to hear you’re recovered somewhat. And yeah, Wizards is churning through sets at a huge pace at present, salvation is changing hands, and Nexus is coming online soon with some of the EDH stalwarts from here behind the scenes running the show. I’ll be taking my lists there when it’s online.
Varina has been doing well. I’m still waiting for some pieces to throw in from an online order, and there’s been a few changes I have yet to document, but otherwise it’s a pretty enjoyable build to play at present. Still more of a mid range build than a combo build, but that’s what I like so that’s what I do.
Welcome back! Glad to hear you’re recovered somewhat. And yeah, Wizards is churning through sets at a huge pace at present, salvation is changing hands, and Nexus is coming online soon with some of the EDH stalwarts from here behind the scenes running the show. I’ll be taking my lists there when it’s online.
Varina has been doing well. I’m still waiting for some pieces to throw in from an online order, and there’s been a few changes I have yet to document, but otherwise it’s a pretty enjoyable build to play at present. Still more of a mid range build than a combo build, but that’s what I like so that’s what I do.
Glad Varina has ben working out well for you. I was looking into the sets I had missed, and it seems to me Amass could be a decently powerful ability for her... So I figured I'd disregard everything else and build a list focused solely on producing and supporting zombie tokens: here, have a look.
I still kept the Gravecrawler+Phyrexian Altar combo because I'm a horrible person: in fact, Putrid Warrior is a stand-in for the upcoming Corpse Knight, which will be yet another finisher for said combo. The general idea here is to create lots of tokens, buff them, support them, and attack with them: draw power and tutors help speed us towards a wincon (a lord/god to set up a massive attack, or the aforementioned combo), while counters are meant to be used solely to stop enemy board wipes, or to prevent the pesky Niv-Mizzet playr from comboing off. Of course, all the missing cards are supposed to be lands. Your thoughts?
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What’s the split y’all are finding between high cost synergies and just getting to play at a higher rate?
Also unsettled mariner did stop a whole wheel of damage from a niv-mizzet so it’s earning its keep hahaha
While my list is quite a bit different outside of the zombies themselves (and even some zombies are different) I had a few things that stood out to me:
Alhammarret's Archive is a beast. I had picked one up based on a comment in this thread and, at least in the one game I played, it put in a ton of work. It not only got me the cards I wanted but it also filled my graveyard for some activations of Gravespawn Sovereign later on. I was even building towards a Patriarch's Bidding in my hand so I could mass reanimate everything. I ended up winning before getting to do that
Gray Merchant of Asphodel gained me 28 life in a 3 player game which the Archive doubled to 56 life. I went from 16 life to 72 and obviously had a massive board. The other two players kind of hung it up after that. I actually don't run Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in the deck even though it is mostly black but this situation shows I probably could. I only have 4 lands that don't produce color (and that counts Phyrexian Tower just in case I don't have a creature at the right time) so adding another "colorless" land might not be the worst option since it will very often at least produce 1 black.
Dreadhorde Invasion is kind of nice to have as it gives me a zombie every turn (or buffs one up) and the synergy with Soul Diviner is pretty good. Especially with Archive as well. I ended up constantly removing counters from my Army to keep my hand full.
Soul Diviner is basically the biggest reason I kept Noosegraf Mob, and the tokens it gives are also pretty good, but I think blinx28 has the right idea on lowering the curve and the Mob may not be nearly as good. My curve is at 3.23 right now with 3 six drops and 11 five drops. The five drops are on the high side but they include things like the aforementioned Archive, Kindred Discovery, Havengul Lich, Grimgrin, Gray Merchant, and God-Eternals Bontu and Oketra (among others).
I think the power of the 5 drops is enough to warrant the curve being a little high. I do run 39 lands, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, 2 Signets, and 2 Talismans. I do not run the non-black option for either set (so no Azorius Signet or Talisman of Progress). So, I am likely on the high side for mana sources as well, but as I just built the deck, I erred on the side of caution to ensure I could hit my land drops. Varina helps us draw out of mana flooding, but she would also help us draw out of mana screw too I suppose.
I am interested in what people think of Unsettled Mariner. It is not a card I thought of but it seems like a "decent" protection card. My thought has been that this deck wants to be pretty aggressive so I am not sure on the value of a card that doesn't do much to advance our game plan and only sort of protects us against stuff. I guess I prefer Patriarch's Bidding and Living Death to get all our stuff back after a wrath (though we are more susceptible to grave hate then).
I have seen a lot of comments on Tombstone Stairwell and I decided to omit it in mine to start with. I think an easy swap could be the Stairwell for the Mob as the Stairwell should produce a lot more zombies. Now, I don't run either Altar but I think it can still put in some good work even if it is a little tougher to keep around in my case.
I can see where Archfiend of Ifnir would be really good in this deck, but I really don't like the aesthetic of it not being a zombie (I am already stretching that for Burnished Hart and Solemn). I might have to suck it up as that card does seem pretty synergistic with the deck.
As for lands, I really like Vault of the Archangel and I can't believe I forgot about Unclaimed Territory. I have High Market in my list and really, I don't know that it is the greatest here. I think I would rather have something like the Vault even if High Market could sometimes save my dudes from being exiled. Especially since I have creature based sac outlets already. Path of Ancestry also makes sense but a) it comes into play tapped and b) doesn't have a foil (yet). I might have to think on this one too.
As an aside, your card tag for Path of Ancestry seems to have an apostrophe at the end of it for some reason so the card tag doesn't work.
Yeah, it's pretty good draw power. The life gain I'm not so worried about, there's redundancy in my list to some extent. The issue I have with Archive is that when we have draw in play it's great, but its pretty dependent on other pieces to do pretty well anything. I guess if I end up picking up a copy I'll try it out here, but I'm in no rush personally.
I've just added Gary back in myself. I haven't played in the last couple of weeks, purely on account of being rather busy at work, but I fully expect it to be an excellent addition. I don't run Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx either, but I could totally see a place for it.
I haven't seen Soul Diviner come up, to be honest. I have since removed Dreadhorde Invasion though. There's nice synergy between these two, but Invasion was otherwise quite slow and I didn't find it really giving me a ton of advantage. It's nice early advantage, but I was left a little disappointed.
There's a pretty good justification for removing Mob. It's expensive to cast for sure. I like it purely for being able to grow an army outside of my turn, and it's nice and cute with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. That being said, 4BB is a lot, and my 5 CMC slot is pretty full.
I agree here. The 5 slot is full, but Varina sort of allows us to keep what we need, and toss what we don't, so you'll sort of always have the best hand you can with the cards available at any given time. Choices. I've definitely found the list a little quicker with more rocks present, although there's probably never gonna be a Crypt in mine. I don't think it overly hurts to run heavy on lands either. Often I find myself leaving a land drop or two in hand and tossing surplus lands so that I can turn them into critters - either directly via Zombie Infestation or indirectly once they hit the yard with Varina - or both.
I'm interested to hear back too. Personally I think it's meta dependent; if you see a lot of control decks it's a lock. Otherwise it might be a little vanilla. I guess it depends if there's an empty slot at 2 in the build. My current flex spot there is Lazotep Reaver. I have yet to test it, but I can't see it being astoundingly good.
It's strong if you're building around it. I guess the difference is it needs at least a little bit of leaning into. Totally worth it if you can though. If you run lords, it's great, if you run aristocrats it's great, it just ends games almost on the spot. Mob obviously doesn't, so it's clearly a stronger pick there.
It really is a solid add. I don't like that it's not a zombie either, despite that this isn't intentionally a tribal build (it just works best that way). Being able to irrevocably clear the board is incredibly strong, and if you don't need it it cycles too.
Vault is awesome. It's a rattlesnake that people forget about all the time, and it keeps life totals adequate. It's expensive to activate, but totally worth the add. I got the idea from a previous Ghave, Guru of Spores deck where it was incredibly strong, and it's been top notch here too. Path of Ancestry I'm fairly happy with purely for the scry. ETB tapped is meh, but it's been good nonetheless.
Thanks for the tip, have just amended. I'll keep an eye out for your list, too.
Normally this is just a great recursion spell, but with Varina’s ability it essentially reads “pay 2 life, pay 2 mana: draw a card” whenever she activates from attack triggers by stacking your hand with creatures you can repitch to the graveyard.
Is there room for something like this?
As for whether there's room....I honestly don't know. I've got a few bits on the way from Modern Horizons and a birthday order, so my list is in the ether currently. But I think if you have flex spots here or there there's a good chance it could fit nicely.
As far as additions go, I'm tossing up whether Hall of Heliod's Generosity and Mistveil Plains would be worth adding to the land base here. Hall picks up my cumulative upkeep enchantments, which saves me a bit of mana, as well as some of the more clutch enchantments like Smothering Tithe (which you can guarantee gets blown up). Mistveil would be more to have the possibility of saving bits and pieces from exile, or possibly recurring instants/sorceries. Currently there's only one piece that can drag them back out, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, though, so it might be a waste of time even exploring that space. You never know though, switching a land out is a reasonably small deck space to manipulate.
In regards to using it so you have cards to pitch to Varina, I don't know that is enough reason to slot it in. I think just raw card draw would do the same thing.
It is definitely not a bad card, and it might be correct to slot it in to allow for a bit more resilience, but I think there may be better options.
Of the two, the Hall seems better if only because Mistveil seems less likely to ever "work". That is, you only have 6 permanents that are white (granted, one is Varina) which means that you only have 5 other cards in your remaining 98 to get you to two white permanents to let you activate it. It seems like those are slim odds to do what you want with it.
I mean personally, I prefer straight to battlefield reanimation, but if you don't have Living Death or Patriarch's Bidding then Reclamation possibly could pull some weight. That being said, there's a lot of options for cheap reanimation these days, so it's probably a moot point. Victimize, Apprentice Necromancer, Rise from the Grave or the functionally better Bond of Revival. Take your pick. I guess if you're wanting a mana cheap, instant speed option it could be reasonable though.
Valid point. Let's flag that idea, I'd forgotten about the use restriction. I am still interested in options for recurring instants and sorceries, it just seems there's not much in the way of options there.
Corpse Knight
It's a definite slot for me over Lazotep Reaver. Every opponent is awesome, entering the battlefield instead of casting is awesome, and plays right into Patriarch's Bidding, Living Death, Zombie Apocalypse and Ghoulcaller Gisa. Should be a great add.
He's definitely an auto-include.
Kind of a shame that we got all these enticing-looking zombie toys from WotS, and almost immediately they feel like they're coming back out.
Reaver is definitely weaker than this, but the 2-for-1 on bodies is still attractive. Not to mention, the cards work well together.
Soul Diviner doesn't have that many targets
How have you found Gisa? She always struck me as being slow, and as a non-zombie, a bit more fragile (dies with Noxious Ghoul around, and doesn't come back with Bidding).
Have you ever used Forgotten Creation's discard ability? I guess with Ilfnir out it would be useful, but in every game I've drawn it, I've had something else to play, and it has always just gotten pitched to a Varina wheel.
Oketra, I've only drawn once, but had to discard it after a few turns of not having the WW to cast it. Personally, I've tried avoiding anything with WW or UU, even with a solid mana base.
So, for instance, I'm running Toxic Deluge rather than Bust or Supreme Verdict. Then again, I haven't brought in Smothering Tithe yet, either.
What is Aminatou doing for you?
I actually haven't had her come up yet, strangely enough. I've been pretty busy at work, so it's been hard to squeeze in any playtime, but when I have played, she just hasn't cropped up.
I have, but admittedly it's infrequently. The other decent side of Creation is that it has combat evasion, so there's that.
I've had her online a couple times, and she's pretty decent provided you have critters to cast. It's a shame she doesn't trigger from reanimation, but oh well.
Initially, I had issues here so would have done the same, but I haven't seen the need recently, given a few mana fixing rocks and expanding the land options. Which is great because Deluge is way overpriced. It's excellent, but I'm not paying market price for it right now.
She's a little bit of filtering, but mostly here to reset walkers and get extra triggers from things like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Bojuka Bog, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Mystic Remora and Tombstone Stairwell. That sort of thing. She does pretty well in that respect, just ekeing extra value from my key pieces and making my things go a little further. Bare minimum she can give me fresh rocks for a little extra mana or an extra blocker where needed.
More likely just an addition since it adds another combo outlet for Gravecrawler, even though that's not the main win-con (no strict tutors in my build).
If Phyrexian Reclamation doesn't end up being the instant speed hand refiller that i hope it can be, this is the value swap. Don't really need slow recursion---always go forward until we dump them all out.
To my mind, they're both great, and redundancy is never a bad thing if you're not running tutors. Either one of them could end the game with Tombstone Stairwell. If I were to swap it out for any effect similar to this it would be Shepherd of Rot. But even that is pretty damn strong, so...I dunno.
Not sure if you run Corpse Connoisseur but it's not a strict tutor, and Gravecrawler was my go-to target to Entomb with this every single time. It's a bit high on the curve, but then 4BB for 2 bodies isn't all that bad either, especially considering how gross Gravecrawler can be, and both can be recurred. Unearth is weird, but it's not awful either. I was actually a little bummed to be pulling Connoisseur out of my build, it was such a nice interaction.
I had Corpse Connoisseur in for awhile helping me bring out Wonder as well. Lost it because it's a pretty narrow tutor, high cmc as you well know, and I'm learning I don't necessarily want my opponents seeing me dump a Gravecrawler and turn their heat my way.
As for Corpse Knight , you're right about Vengeful Dead, it's just a shame it costs 4CMC for the same effect. Maybe I developed a premature attachment to Unsettled Mariner, but he actually is a real stopper for anyone trying to combo-off with an activated ability that targets (like Niv-Mizzet, Parun) if that's something you see in local metas.
I'm also picking up Patriarch's Bidding to bring my mass recursion total to 3 (y'all make it sound so juicy). Think that will ensure I see at least one graveyard dumper every game if Varina is active a few turns. I'm going to replace Victimize even though it's excellent since I like the balance of effects i'm currently at. Just keeps my lines of play simpler too. Less temptation to spring the coop too early.
Yeah, that's fair. Unless you can play him straight away it's a bit of a telegraph. And besides, at instant speed Entomb really isn't all that expensive anymore if you feel you want to run it.
Yeah, 3B is expensive, but it really does have a devastating effect. It's weird though, each of the zombie aristocrats is slightly different in how they trigger. Corpse Knight and Wayward Severnt work well with reanimation or mass blink, Vengeful and Belcher work well with wipes and sac effects, and Diregraf does too, but in a more narrow way. Shepherd of Rot is just the black sheep of the lot in that it needs haste or a chance to untap, which definitely makes it the least useful of the lot - but when you can use it, it's strong.
This has been it for me too. Redundancy is key, and that's why I'm picking up Bidding and Apocalypse. I had a game the other weekend where I was waiting for Living Death for a win, but being the only card of its type wishing for it is a crapshoot. I ended up losing with a full graveyard and LD 2 draws away. I like Command the Dreadhorde too, but it does gouge a little, so I'll probably end up pulling it out.
3 mass reanimation spells seems like a good number. I'm trying out Rot Hulk as a sort of 4th, just because he looks cool and is another zombie himself (plus, reanimating him some other way--Havenghoul--is going to be a lot of value).
Rot Hulk is awesome, but it’s expensive price and cmc, so I just went for Bidding.
Going to pull Fleshbag Marauder to make room...edict effect is great but off theme for my focuses. Also a leftover from my old dimir build that could more reliably recast it every turn.
No more definite locks from Core 2020 yet, but Field of the Dead is a possible consideration for those running a suitable land suite. ETB tapped and colorless production is a shame, so it’s probably at least a little suboptimal, but you could do worse than getting a free token per turn I guess. I probably won’t add, but with fetches, duals and shocks I can definitely see how it’d be decent.
So, how has Varina been doing for you these days? I wanted to stop by and ask if you've been testing the God-Eternals, as both Bontu and Oketra feel like they'd do a lot of work for this deck, the latter by creating even more zombies and the former by providing even more card draw, potentially to hilarious results (I'm pretty sure I can put together a combo to draw your deck with her and Varina given the time, which could lead to a slew of new and exciting potential wincons).
Varina has been doing well. I’m still waiting for some pieces to throw in from an online order, and there’s been a few changes I have yet to document, but otherwise it’s a pretty enjoyable build to play at present. Still more of a mid range build than a combo build, but that’s what I like so that’s what I do.
Glad Varina has ben working out well for you. I was looking into the sets I had missed, and it seems to me Amass could be a decently powerful ability for her... So I figured I'd disregard everything else and build a list focused solely on producing and supporting zombie tokens: here, have a look.
I still kept the Gravecrawler+Phyrexian Altar combo because I'm a horrible person: in fact, Putrid Warrior is a stand-in for the upcoming Corpse Knight, which will be yet another finisher for said combo. The general idea here is to create lots of tokens, buff them, support them, and attack with them: draw power and tutors help speed us towards a wincon (a lord/god to set up a massive attack, or the aforementioned combo), while counters are meant to be used solely to stop enemy board wipes, or to prevent the pesky Niv-Mizzet playr from comboing off. Of course, all the missing cards are supposed to be lands. Your thoughts?