Just wanted to say i made an account to thank you all for the breakdowns and discussion here---invaluable resource when i switched from Gisa and Geralf to Varina. I was hoping I might get some feedback on what I think is a pretty stable version of my own Zombie Tribal take on Varina.
I finally pulled the trigger on Tombstone Stairwell and pulled Army of the Damned for it. Feels like a great swap.
Thanks very much, I'm glad this has been of use to you I'd be happy to look over your list, hopefully you might get some other interest here too.
In general terms, this looks like a swarm list, in that you're looking to make a crap-ton of zombies and turn them sideways with impunity. That's fine and I think it can work just fine.
With Archfiend of Ifnir in the deck, have you considered the possibility of adding some more looting in to accompany him? The pros of doing so are that it fills your yard for reanimation (if that's in your plans), gets your hand full of land and answers when needed, and obviously wrecks face with Archfiend. I'd say looking at either/or with Windfall, Whispering Madness (points for combat synergy here too) and Ancient Excavation could be beneficial. These sort of effects can be a little varied with your opponents, but a lot of the time if you drop the spell at the right time they can be pretty disruptive - especially if you're doing it repeatedly with Whispering Madness, or just saving the effect for yourself with Ancient Excavation.
I see Rooftop Storm in the list here. Great, flavourful card. Is it there for combo potential or cost reduction? In my opinion (and this is purely because I'm not into dedicated combo myself) if you're not planning on going infinite with it, I'd free up the space; it's a great effect, but at the point in the game where you're casting this if it's not winning you the game there's other stuff I'd rather be casting. Thinking on it, you've definitely got infinite here already with it in a number of ways anyway. That's just me though; it's totally fine to combo off with this, or have it in here purely from a Vorthos perspective.
Victimize seems strangely alone in terms of single target reanimation. Is this purely from a budget perspective? Dread Return could be reasonable for that too, otherwise Reanimate is nice if you can afford it. Generally though, unless I've got ways to recycle instants and sorceries a la Dralnu, Lich Lord I prefer to use reanimation that comes stapled to something. Have you given any thought to Havengul Lich or Mikaeus, the Unhallowed? Either could do excellent things here, and the Lich comes with the ability to double up on any activated abilities you might want to nab. He's a little costly, but you're running plenty of rocks here, including Ashnod's Altar so you should be able to field some decent burst mana. Considering all of that, Mike could be good with all those sacrifice outlets anyway. At the very least he gives you some redundancy in combat, as well as lots of death triggers and etb triggers from your bleeder zombies.
I'm really glad to see Tombstone Stairwell here, it's a savagely good card. Most times casting it wins the game for me, if not on the spot very shortly after casting. It is again something that will reward looting a little more, so don't be afraid to lean into that with Windfall effects and things like Necromancer's Stockpile.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on what's worked and what hasn't for you, thanks again for the feedback!
Thanks for diving into this——you’re right in that it mainly plans to win with combat, but there’s also a few life drain/aristocrat-like packages, as well as the one-off infinite combos you point out with things like Gravecrawler and Phyrexian Altar. As far as building up the Archfiend synergies, decided to focus on the commander synergies than the single in the 99 esp without any tutors. I like the random lines of play that this deck offers.
Victimize is just insane value, but I realized that the deck plays better when I focus on churning through the deck with Varina and attackers, then using a mass reanimate...this is why Gisa and Gerald as well as Havengul Lich have been removed. Spending my turns on single reanimation targets (unless I’m tossing a token to bring back key utility creatures) proved slower than I could afford, so it’s attack, cycle for respond cards, then bring everything back to overwhelm.
Haven’t tested tombstone yet, but certainly feels like the perfect deck for it. Army of the Damned similarly is a bomb but too slow to let 3 turns pass before they matter (besides sack value but tombstone does that better too maybe).
Totally get the Mike thing. I got him when he was around $10 a few years back and he’s climbed a bit from there.
As far as the Archfiend synergies, I would suggest that they’re not too far from what Varina does anyway. You want to be filling your yard, and they do that fairly well. I’d say the best of the bunch is Ancient Excavation in that you can pick and choose what you want to hold and what to drop; the synergy with Archfiend is incidental. I’ve found them pretty good for hitting land drops and filling the yard. Personally I need a couple more mass reanimate spells before I’m golden, but they’ve done well for giving me value in hand, the synergy with Archfiend is sort of just a happy coincidence.
It’s hard to go past Fact or Fiction. There’s almost nothing that’s bad about it. The reason I don’t run is partly space, and the fact that the looting variants scale to the game a little better. Remora is kind of a meta call. If you play against lots of control you could probably get value from it. That being said if you have a copy of Rhystic Study it’s probably going to go just as far and maybe be a little more versatile.
As far as Tombstone Stairwell goes, don’t be afraid of the upkeep. If you’re dropping it at the right time it will drastically turn the tide. Most games I don’t have to pay the upkeep more than once, lets put it that way. Pair it with Black market or an altar and you can pay the upkeep indefinitely. Pair it with a zombie aristocrat and the game will just drop away from your table, it’s that good.
I see what you’re saying with Urborg and I don’t disagree. The only problem I have there (and it has nothing to do with this deck) is that then I have a fair amount of value tied up in a coffers I can’t use, partially because I have enough decks and I have no intentions of building mono black anytime soon. I could use it as trade but I am loath to, as they’re not easy to come by. I’ll think about it.
I’d been thinking about dropping Lili too. She’s limited in a few ways that make her less than ideal, and the Master is probably the last lord I definitely want in here.
The rest of your recommendations, while generally valuable, do make up a considerable monetary investment, and I’d love to be able to manage that, but at present I’m not able to front that sort of cash. Titan is enormously overpriced at present, as is the Archive (my thoughts on it are mixed anyway, it seems like a win more card). Pretty sure Grotto is up over 10 NZD for an uncommon land too, and confluence and brass are much the same. I get what you’re heading for, and I do appreciate the suggestion, but it’s currently out of reach for me.
Edit - I hope this doesn’t sound rude, I certainly don’t mean it to. I’m just building as best I can within the limitations RL has imposed on me, and regardless of monetary value I can definitely see the principles of deck building you’re suggesting.
There is no offense to be taken. I'm aware you are on a budget, but I made the recommendations primarily because this is a primer thread and I think it's important to bring up those cards for people who aren't restrained by the same monetary constraints.
With that said, I disagree regarding Alhammarret's Archive. It's a redundant card that serves the same purpose that Kindred Discovery does, albeit ONLY if Varina is in play. It turns Varina into a real card advantage engine. She needs the help because she is a commander that, let's be honest, is a weaker version of Sidisi, Brood Tyrant in immediate function. Without support, she is designed to pitch cards to generate tokens at the cost of 2. Even with the support of Zombie tribal, she won't be as efficient at the same tasks as Sidisi with the might of milling shenanigans like Mesmeric Orb, Embalmer's Tools,Altar of Dementia, etc. Sidisi does that for free, doesn't require any attacks with its support package, and has access to the same artifact/enchantment hate in Sultai. What sets Varina apart is that, with the appropriate support of these draw enablers, she creates far more card advantage than Sidisi can with the same tribal backing.
Overall, I'd agree with you if Varina was in the 99, but it's the one consistent creature that you can count upon. If you are choosing to introduce Kindred Discovery, and have no monetary constraints, I see no reason why Archive shouldn't be included for redundancy. The reality is Kindred Discovery is going to attract attention the moment you drop it, I mean it has to or you will run away with the game, and someone is going to remove it. You need redundant effects, especially when not having something with heavy draw significantly weakens Varina. I'd much rather have a superior, Zombie tribal version of Edric, Spymaster of Trest than what Varina starts out as. If cost weren't a factor, I'd argue that Alhammarret's Archive is more deserving of a 5CC slot than Black Market, a card with diminishing returns without something like Exsanguinate or Torment of Hailfire, or Open the Graves, which creates a new vector for the Gravecrawler combo, however it's in a form that cannot win the game on the spot.
On a side note, I've noticed that you've increasingly gone into this discard theme. In that case, I'd recommend going back and taking a second look at Zombie Infestation. I really don't know what to take out for it, perhaps Dreadhorde Invasion, but I'd much rather be tossing cards to make Zombies, which fuels your win-condition, than ditching cards to give Putrid Imp flying.
EDIT: Correction, I thought it was a primer and now see it was not tagged as such. Still, I think it's valuable to bring up those more expensive options for those with the resources. I also wanted to add that Archfiend of Ifnir is a far more powerful addition than I initially gave it credit for. I've playtested it in a couple of games and having both it and Varina in play can do a significant amount of damage to the other sides board presence. Only issue I am having is that 5CC slot for creatures is a little full and it's hard to figure out what to remove for it. I've contemplated taking a break from Ghoulcaller Gisa to test the Archfiend out more.
With that said, I disagree regarding Alhammarret's Archive. It's a redundant card that serves the same purpose that Kindred Discovery does, albeit ONLY if Varina is in play. It turns Varina into a real card advantage engine. She needs the help because she is a commander that, let's be honest, is a weaker version of Sidisi, Brood Tyrant in immediate function. Without support, she is designed to pitch cards to generate tokens at the cost of 2. Even with the support of Zombie tribal, she won't be as efficient at the same tasks as Sidisi with the might of milling shenanigans like Mesmeric Orb, Embalmer's Tools,Altar of Dementia, etc. Sidisi does that for free, doesn't require any attacks with its support package, and has access to the same artifact/enchantment hate in Sultai. What sets Varina apart is that, with the appropriate support of these draw enablers, she creates far more card advantage than Sidisi can with the same tribal backing.
Overall, I'd agree with you if Varina was in the 99, but it's the one consistent creature that you can count upon. If you are choosing to introduce Kindred Discovery, and have no monetary constraints, I see no reason why Archive shouldn't be included for redundancy. The reality is Kindred Discovery is going to attract attention the moment you drop it, I mean it has to or you will run away with the game, and someone is going to remove it. You need redundant effects, especially when not having something with heavy draw significantly weakens Varina. I'd much rather have a superior, Zombie tribal version of Edric, Spymaster of Trest than what Varina starts out as. If cost weren't a factor, I'd argue that Alhammarret's Archive is more deserving of a 5CC slot than Black Market, a card with diminishing returns without something like Exsanguinate or Torment of Hailfire, or Open the Graves, which creates a new vector for the Gravecrawler combo, however it's in a form that cannot win the game on the spot.
I couldn't agree more on Archive. It's been great for me and the added redundancy (alongside Discovery) makes Psychosis Crawler particularly potent. Kindred Discovery and Archive are why I even bother to play Reliquary Tower and Thought Vessel. And the life gain bonus is not negligible either.
Speaking of 5-drops, I tried out Archfiend on your recommendation and it's been nothing less than stellar. Thanks!
There is no offense to be taken. I'm aware you are on a budget, but I made the recommendations primarily because this is a primer thread and I think it's important to bring up those cards for people who aren't restrained by the same monetary constraints.
orrection, I thought it was a primer and now see it was not tagged as such. Still, I think it's valuable to bring up those more expensive options for those with the resources.
Yeah, not a primer yet at least. Even though I'm on the committee, no one gets a free ride You raise a good point though; it might be a moot point for me, but I do want to encourage critical discussion of options here. Considering how new Varina is, it's probably worth discussing optimal inclusions (although for what it's worth I think she's wide open in design, so will probably never be 'solved' in the classic sense of say a commander like Omnath, Locus of Rage).
With that said, I disagree regarding Alhammarret's Archive. It's a redundant card that serves the same purpose that Kindred Discovery does, albeit ONLY if Varina is in play. It turns Varina into a real card advantage engine. She needs the help because she is a commander that, let's be honest, is a weaker version of Sidisi, Brood Tyrant in immediate function. Without support, she is designed to pitch cards to generate tokens at the cost of 2. Even with the support of Zombie tribal, she won't be as efficient at the same tasks as Sidisi with the might of milling shenanigans like Mesmeric Orb, Embalmer's Tools, Altar of Dementia, etc. Sidisi does that for free, doesn't require any attacks with its support package, and has access to the same artifact/enchantment hate in Sultai. What sets Varina apart is that, with the appropriate support of these draw enablers, she creates far more card advantage than Sidisi can with the same tribal backing.
I get where you're going with the comparison to Sidisi, although there's some big differences in that Sidisi needs a dedicated mill package. Similarly, Varina needs tribal support, whether that's in token or 'real' creature forms. It's sort of apples and oranges, although there's a reasonable comparison to be made in terms of how easily they can grow a token army. Honestly, this is part of why I haven't gone full swarm, it just doesn't naturally suit her, to my mind. Doable, but not as efficient as possible.
Overall, I'd agree with you if Varina was in the 99, but it's the one consistent creature that you can count upon. If you are choosing to introduce Kindred Discovery, and have no monetary constraints, I see no reason why Archive shouldn't be included for redundancy. The reality is Kindred Discovery is going to attract attention the moment you drop it, I mean it has to or you will run away with the game, and someone is going to remove it. You need redundant effects, especially when not having something with heavy draw significantly weakens Varina. I'd much rather have a superior, Zombie tribal version of Edric, Spymaster of Trest than what Varina starts out as. If cost weren't a factor, I'd argue that Alhammarret's Archive is more deserving of a 5CC slot than Black Market, a card with diminishing returns without something like Exsanguinate or Torment of Hailfire, or Open the Graves, which creates a new vector for the Gravecrawler combo, however it's in a form that cannot win the game on the spot.
I don't necessarily disagree, to be fair. The addition life gain I could take or leave. The extra draw, it's decent, albeit dependent on other pieces being in play to really optimise value (Mystic Remora, Varina etc). That being said, a card draw doubler really needs to lead into draws that end the game on the spot, or turn the game on the spot. I don't run Exsanguinate here, or Torment of Hailfire, and that probably won't change. I do need to look at more mass reanimation spells which could fill this slot. I'm currently considering Finale of Eternity, and I could definitely look at Zombie Apocalypse, although ultimately given all the removal in this deck Rise of the Dark Realms would ultimately be the optimal choice, probably even over Patriarch's Bidding, considering that Bidding is usually less than one-sided. I also sort of agree with both Market and Graves - they're reasonably ok if you're playing into them, but they are both a little conditional and require other pieces to really excel. Of the two, I'd prefer to drop Open the Graves. Market is Smothering Tithe #2, and they're both valued mana bursts, considering I don't have a rock package here.
On a side note, I've noticed that you've increasingly gone into this discard theme. In that case, I'd recommend going back and taking a second look at Zombie Infestation. I really don't know what to take out for it, perhaps Dreadhorde Invasion, but I'd much rather be tossing cards to make Zombies, which fuels your win-condition, than ditching cards to give Putrid Imp flying.
Yeah, I've looked at Zombie Infestation, and even had it in here for a tiny bit. I didn't really give it a full run, so it could well give more value than what I saw while it was here. I'd probably cut Graf Harvest for it, if anything. Menace is nice, but I'm almost never going to exile creatures from my yard. I like Infestation is instant speed, I like that the token enters untapped. The only issue I have with going all in on discard is being able to recur non-zombie spells; I have nothing here that can do it. I've considered Possessed Skaab or Dralnu, Lich Lord, but both are at that coveted 5CMC slot (see below). Putrid Imp isn't necessarily in here as a discard outlet; it happens to be a low costed zombie with potential evasion that curves into Varina's effect without her having to swing personally. The discard outlet is a sometimes happy coincidence, far from something I'm building around. I can work around the threshold effect with Varina's exile trigger, too.
I also wanted to add that Archfiend of Ifnir is a far more powerful addition than I initially gave it credit for. I've playtested it in a couple of games and having both it and Varina in play can do a significant amount of damage to the other sides board presence. Only issue I am having is that 5CC slot for creatures is a little full and it's hard to figure out what to remove for it. I've contemplated taking a break from Ghoulcaller Gisa to test the Archfiend out more.
The Archfiend is legitimately nuts, right? I definitely don't see it played as much as it deserves. Also, I have the same issues at 5CMC to be honest. I have 7 creatures at that slot myself, and with a reasonably lean mana package it's hard to justify anything more at that slot.
Yeah, I've looked at Zombie Infestation, and even had it in here for a tiny bit. I didn't really give it a full run, so it could well give more value than what I saw while it was here. I'd probably cut Graf Harvest for it, if anything. Menace is nice, but I'm almost never going to exile creatures from my yard. I like Infestation is instant speed, I like that the token enters untapped. The only issue I have with going all in on discard is being able to recur non-zombie spells; I have nothing here that can do it. I've considered Possessed Skaab or Dralnu, Lich Lord, but both are at that coveted 5CMC slot (see below). Putrid Imp isn't necessarily in here as a discard outlet; it happens to be a low costed zombie with potential evasion that curves into Varina's effect without her having to swing personally. The discard outlet is a sometimes happy coincidence, far from something I'm building around. I can work around the threshold effect with Varina's exile trigger, too.
I figured it wasn't just a discard outlet. I merely brought it up to highlight an existing discard synergy slot, albeit one with another role, that does less than Zombie Infestation. This might be a difference in deck design philosophy, but coming from a former Brago, King Eternal, I tend to focus early game drops in mana rocks with any deck that touches UW, outside of Bant. This has been especially true for me with Varina because a lot of the 1CC and 2CC Zombies have historically been complete garbage. There was once a time when your best option for an Eternal format Zombie tribal deck for a 1CC was Festering Goblin or Sarcomancy. Those days have gotten better, but the majority of the "scary" Zombies cost 3CC, 4CC, and 5CC. As a result, I prefer to ramp early rather than dedicate a lot of slots to "beatstick" Zombies. That early drop strategy, in my opinion, works better for Edgar Markov.
Market is Smothering Tithe #2, and they're both valued mana bursts, considering I don't have a rock package here.
Definitely a difference in design philosophy. My experience has been that mana rocks are the way to go because my 1CC and 2CC slots aren't being populated by many Zombies. If Black Market works, keep it.
As for the comparison between Smothering Tithe and Black Market, I see where you are coming from, but I think they are very different. For one, Smothering Tithe produces effectively produces any color of mana, which I greatly prefer over Black Market producing only B. Smothering Tithe also generates that mana through the natural progression of the game and is more punishing early in the game. T1 Sol Ring/Mana Crypt and T2 Plains/Dual, which is where I prefer to get into my ramp, into Smothering Tithe is a bad day for everyone else and you don't have to do anything other than set it and forget it. Black Market can sort of do that, but only if your opponents like crashing their creatures into things or destroying a lot of things themselves. More often, you are going to want to drop Black Market when you can generate a lot of charge counters yourself, which requires more set-up because that is often going to mean needing more than 5 mana accessible at that time.
I prefer Rooftop Storm in that slot because paying 6 mana into it still allows you to dump Zombies that could have been dropped in the same turn. Like Smothering Tithe, ramping into it in the early game is also a great position to be in. Unfortunately, it's a lot harder to do because it costs 6CC.
I wouldn't have recommended it anyway. I brought up those two cards because they represent why Black Market is often played, for the same reason Mana Echoes sees play in only some decks that could technically slot it in. They are expensive cards that produce very specific mana, a lot of it mind you, and best function when backed up by cards that can make use of the excess mana. If your average mana cost is between 3 and 4 mana, and you aren't running those X cards/effects, its extra mana that you often aren't going to need.
The Archfiend is legitimately nuts, right? I definitely don't see it played as much as it deserves. Also, I have the same issues at 5CMC to be honest. I have 7 creatures at that slot myself, and with a reasonably lean mana package it's hard to justify anything more at that slot.
Ghoulcaller Gisa is where I am leaning right now. Once upon a time, I ran Ghoulcaller Gisa as a monoblack Zombie commander, which is part of the reason I've held onto her. However, with the addition of U and W, I have far more ways to create those same tokens than I ever had in that monoblack deck. I'm not certain that she is quite "cutting the mustard" anymore.
I figured it wasn't just a discard outlet. I merely brought it up to highlight an existing discard synergy slot, albeit one with another role, that does less than Zombie Infestation. This might be a difference in deck design philosophy, but coming from a former Brago, King Eternal, I tend to focus early game drops in mana rocks with any deck that touches UW, outside of Bant.
Yeah, I think there's some relevance there. I've done much the same with my Dralnu build, although dropping more rocks than a landslide works well there purely on account of playing well into my likely win condition of overwhelming advantage with Paradox Engine. I don't have that here, although I can see the benefit of some high impact rocks here, purely to be able to hit that 5-6 CMC creature slot earlier and put pressure on the board and still hold mana for incidental value or removal. I think the low CMC zombies lean fairly heavily into Varina's ability, and without her on the field things are a little more tenuous; outside of the obvious value of Gravecrawler, they're chump blockers and not much else. I could see adapting, although my low cost zombies generally do have some intrinsic value. Putrid Imp and Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim I could see dropping from the low end of the curve as the weakest spots at present.
Definitely a difference in design philosophy. My experience has been that mana rocks are the way to go because my 1CC and 2CC slots aren't being populated by many Zombies. If Black Market works, keep it.
As for the comparison between Smothering Tithe and Black Market, I see where you are coming from, but I think they are very different. For one, Smothering Tithe produces effectively produces any color of mana, which I greatly prefer over Black Market producing only B. Smothering Tithe also generates that mana through the natural progression of the game and is more punishing early in the game. T1 Sol Ring/Mana Crypt and T2 Plains/Dual, which is where I prefer to get into my ramp, into Smothering Tithe is a bad day for everyone else and you don't have to do anything other than set it and forget it. Black Market can sort of do that, but only if your opponents like crashing their creatures into things or destroying a lot of things themselves. More often, you are going to want to drop Black Market when you can generate a lot of charge counters yourself, which requires more set-up because that is often going to mean needing more than 5 mana accessible at that time.
Thing is, Black Market has come up so rarely I'm not sure if it does work or not. Tithe is obviously gross, but it's a definite target once it resolves. That's fine, the treasure tokens are separate entities, and that's not the case with Market. The fact that it requires a wipe from me or some heavy combat makes it more of a corner case, too. I could see losing it in the respect that it requires a fair degree of set up and it's vulnerable to destruction - putting all of your eggs in one basket isn't ideal, especially when you can only spend them in one colour at a specific time of your turn only. The issue I have with directly swapping for rocks is not really having access to the higher impact rocks I'd need. I have the relevant signets, I don't have Mana Crypt, Mana Vault et al, so for my particular build it's concerning adding a suite of rocks if I can't really optimise the suite.
I prefer Rooftop Storm in that slot because paying 6 mana into it still allows you to dump Zombies that could have been dropped in the same turn. Like Smothering Tithe, ramping into it in the early game is also a great position to be in. Unfortunately, it's a lot harder to do because it costs 6CC.
Yeah, it's something I probably won't add to my list. Too easy to combo out with, and that's just not me. I'd be just as happy with a mass reanimator in that slot to achieve a similar end without being capable of that level off degeneracy.
This is a tricky problem. I've been fortunate where G dominates my area. You can find Reclamation Sage, Spore Frog, Bane of Progress, and Eternal Witness just about everywhere. My only answer to that has been to depend on removal to force those creatures into the graveyard and to use The Scarab God, Gravespawn Sovereign, and Havengul Lich to use those toolboxes myself.
I mean I've kind of worked around it in terms of redundancy - not sure if you've noticed, there's a fairly high density of wipes and single target removal in my build. That way, if/when I'm looting or discarding I can keep the most versatile or relevant version of what I need without having to worry about not having an answer to the game state. I have your options available to me in Scarab and Lich, so there's that. I don't think it's a major issue, it just means the deck can't scrap it out indefinitely.
Ghoulcaller Gisa is where I am leaning right now. Once upon a time, I ran Ghoulcaller Gisa as a monoblack Zombie commander, which is part of the reason I've held onto her. However, with the addition of U and W, I have far more ways to create those same tokens than I ever had in that monoblack deck. I'm not certain that she is quite "cutting the mustard" anymore.
I haven't brought her into play to test her out here, honestly. She just hasn't come up. Similarly, God-Eternal Oketra has only come up the once, too, and it was with a handful of heavily costed creatures, which was hardly a test of her optimal value. They're my two possible flex slots at 5 at present, I just don't know if they stay purely because I haven't had the opportunity to trial them.
I couldn't agree more on Archive. It's been great for me and the added redundancy (alongside Discovery) makes Psychosis Crawler particularly potent. Kindred Discovery and Archive are why I even bother to play Reliquary Tower and Thought Vessel. And the life gain bonus is not negligible either.
Speaking of 5-drops, I tried out Archfiend on your recommendation and it's been nothing less than stellar. Thanks!
Thanks for verifying this. I think with Archive I'm desperately hoping to come into some coin before I can add a copy. Psychosis Crawler is an interesting add too, hadn't really thought of that here. It could be savage.
Very much glad to see more folk getting on the train to Ifnir, that demon has performed remarkably well for me. It's funny, there's a ton of people out there that don't know it well. They're like 'oh, that's cute...wait lemme read that....oh damn'. It's always hilarious. Best of luck with Tombstone Stairwell, too. I trust it will do gross things for you. It's been a really strong add for me in conjunction with most of the key pieces here.
The new Undead Augur looks like a great value engine for this deck! Also, I think Cruel Celebrant deserves some consideration for this build, especially if we lean into the whole aristocrat style life drain. I tested it online and it did well enough to garner removal after a couple turns.
I'm beginning to realize that this deck does very well in a casual setting even though Varina is only considered a mid-power commander. In a lot of my games, I usually find myself the archenemy, especially since I play value cards such as Archfiend of Ifnir, The Scarab God, and surprisingly Lazav, The Multifarious. People are starting to catch on to Ifnir's synergy with Varina and have removed him on sight as well. However, in my Varina Reanimator build, Lazav has been a champ due to his synergy with Varina's selective discard.
I'll have Lazav copy a binned Sun Titan before combat to get the trigger, therefore recurring the things I pitched with Varina's ability. My favorite play was swinging in with some zombie tokens made by Scarab God, and then after the block phase, turning Lazav into Vizier of the Scorpion, killing every creature that blocked!
I still struggle with whether I want to commit to zombie tribal as my first deck to build since I sometimes doubt its viability, but I think it's time to pull the trigger. I will start assembling the individual cards and hopefully build it soon.
Undead Augur is definitely replacing my Nightscape Familiar as a low drop for Varina's trigger early game that has immense value tacked onto it.
I've been trying to find ways overall to slot more draw into the deck to allow me to keep playing spells rapidly and continue having a hand large enough to sculp...many games i'll find myself down to 1 or 2 cards and struggle to pick the best option to hold onto. Bringing this as well as Mystic Remora into the deck is important.
I'm honestly considering losing both Rooftop Storm and Liliana, Untouched by Death since they're both necessary for the optimal play, and when playing tutorless, i'm sure card draw and selection is better than a single multipoint combo (esp when the Altars and Gravecrawler already handle that need).
The new Undead Augur looks like a great value engine for this deck! Also, I think Cruel Celebrant deserves some consideration for this build, especially if we lean into the whole aristocrat style life drain. I tested it online and it did well enough to garner removal after a couple turns.
I've considered this too, there's a lot of bleeder variants you could add if you wanted to. I don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole personally, but if you're down with ultimate aristocrats the first thing I'd add is Zulaport Cutthroat, followed closely by Cruel Celebrant, Blood Artist and a few more sac outlets.
I'm beginning to realize that this deck does very well in a casual setting even though Varina is only considered a mid-power commander. In a lot of my games, I usually find myself the archenemy, especially since I play value cards such as Archfiend of Ifnir, The Scarab God, and surprisingly Lazav, The Multifarious. People are starting to catch on to Ifnir's synergy with Varina and have removed him on sight as well. However, in my Varina Reanimator build, Lazav has been a champ due to his synergy with Varina's selective discard.
Interesting to hear this about Lazav, the Multifarious. He seems like an opportunistic Havengul Lich in that respect. It's a little bit of a trade off, I guess, there's pro's and con's to running either of these. Lich is more costly but gives you access to all graveyards, any time you like. Lazav is cheaper, and his ability is cheaper too, but he doesn't add more numbers to your board state like Lich does. The floating mana is not often something I can manage early (although I have trialled adding the Signet suite back in which helped a bit here), but I can definitely see how you'd like this for an early tempo swing. Actually makes me wonder if OG Lazav, Dimir Mastermind would suit a place here - hexproof is a hell of a thing, and being able to change him to whatever you like at will has its benefits.
I still struggle with whether I want to commit to zombie tribal as my first deck to build since I sometimes doubt its viability, but I think it's time to pull the trigger. I will start assembling the individual cards and hopefully build it soon.
Ultimately, I think you need at least a couple of value adds in the tribe to make it worth running Varina at all. There's a reasonable degree of value in the tribe these days to the point where you don't need to add garbage creatures to fill out your list. And personally I think there's enough other bits to include in terms of removal/reanimation/ramp/draw that you don't need to dump everything into the list that has zombie in the name, either. Just pick and choose the select pieces you want and go from there is my suggestion. Any flex spots you can fill with the pieces you want to add for synergy, such as Lazav.
I've been trying to find ways overall to slot more draw into the deck to allow me to keep playing spells rapidly and continue having a hand large enough to sculp...many games i'll find myself down to 1 or 2 cards and struggle to pick the best option to hold onto. Bringing this as well as Mystic Remora into the deck is important.
Yeah, this has been important for me too. Mystic Remora, Kindred Discovery, Skullclamp, Midnight Reaper have all done work for me there. I also think it's something to work on in terms of the way you play out your hand. There's decks which reward playing out your entire hand on to the table and pushing forward, and there's decks that reward a more hesitant approach. Being as I've built mine without combo in mind, mine is definitely the latter. That should be clear purely in terms of the amount of removal I run, a lot of which is instant speed. Strategically, I aim to have a reasonable board state with at least 1-2 answers and 1-2 blowout spells held back in hand as an ideal state of the game. From there it comes down to timing my lines of play correctly, and Varina I use to help optimise my hand and optimise the value of whatever blowout spell I might have, whether that be Living Death or Tombstone Stairwell.
I'm honestly considering losing both Rooftop Storm and Liliana, Untouched by Death since they're both necessary for the optimal play, and when playing tutorless, i'm sure card draw and selection is better than a single multipoint combo (esp when the Altars and Gravecrawler already handle that need).
I can definitely see why you'd cut those. They're both pretty thirsty cards in their own ways, and if they're your combo line you really need to build around speeding into them to optimise how that looks. That being said, they both have some degree of intrinsic value in themselves, although Lili is definitely more so - she's removal, graveyard filler, reanimation enabler. Rooftop Storm is definitely the combo enabler here, and if it's proving too tough to make that work I could see it going. That being said there's plenty of combos you could work into the list that wouldn't require Rooftop Storm. We can go over some of these if you like.
I can definitely see why you'd cut those. They're both pretty thirsty cards in their own ways, and if they're your combo line you really need to build around speeding into them to optimise how that looks. That being said, they both have some degree of intrinsic value in themselves, although Lili is definitely more so - she's removal, graveyard filler, reanimation enabler. Rooftop Storm is definitely the combo enabler here, and if it's proving too tough to make that work I could see it going. That being said there's plenty of combos you could work into the list that wouldn't require Rooftop Storm. We can go over some of these if you like.
By the time I have Rooftop Storm in hand, i'm usually happy with my board-state and am working toward a mass reanimation. Liliana is capable of doing work on her own, but I don't really want to be milling as much as cycling (in case I lose important response spells) and she is ideally ult'd the turn she drops with rooftop on the field to play all my yard zombies for free. I think I may lose them both for Mystic Remora and another reanimation play (maybe Command the Dreadhorde or Finale of Eternity from WAR? Don't want to spend too much more and would love other cheap choices for resolving a zombie tribal plan) and keep dropping my deck's CMC.
Mind sharing some of those other combos? I try to keep them to a minimum since again, not running tutors...but Gravecrawler + Phyrexian Altar are great with zombistocrat package, or paired with God-Eternal Oketra.
By the time I have Rooftop Storm in hand, i'm usually happy with my board-state and am working toward a mass reanimation.
This is almost bang on why I don't play it - short of comboing out, it's just win-more. Varina doesn't need a swarm. As far as replacement goes, I'm trialling both Command the Dreadhorde and Finale of Eternity at present, but have drawn neither yet. I'll report back once I've got something for you. As an aside though, I mentioned earlier in the thread adding Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord. It's been actually really good value thus far. The lifelink is great, and the reanimation is cheap.
Mind sharing some of those other combos? I try to keep them to a minimum since again, not running tutors...but Gravecrawler + Phyrexian Altar are great with zombistocrat package, or paired with God-Eternal Oketra.
You've touched on one here with the bleeder effects, and that's probably whats most natural for a tribal zombie build. The other really obvious route you could go would be Aetherflux Reservoir lifegain build. That thing is hard to stop, and you're in colours to run Sydri, Galvanic Genius to give it lifelink. There's bound to be a ton of shenanigans there with Soul Sisters, Archangel of Thune and the blatantly obvious and eye roll inducing Sanguine Bond/Exquisite Blood combo. This would probably need a completely different build to be fair.
You could also go for a Paradox Engine zombie storm build. There's a couple of game winning storm spells in Tendrils of Agony, Bitter Ordeal and Mind's Desire, and these variants would probably fit fairly well with spamming Gravecrawler and Phyrexian Altar. While Paradox Engine doesn't go infinite on its own, if you're running enough rocks it'll pretty much feel like it. I run it in my Dralnu, Lich Lord build, and it just wins games. If it lands, you are 100% golden.
I guess you could fit Mike and Trike/Ballista in here as an obvious combo, too, and add Necrotic Ooze for consistency. There's plenty of options in Esper, these are just what I can pull off the top of my head as most likely to see/most likely to work in Varina.
He might well do - he's been decent. I've quite enjoyed him. Reanimate, blink with Aminatou, the Fateshifter, reanimate again.
You're welcome re the combo stuff - although to be fair I really only have a passing knowledge of combo builds, so there's bound to be bits I've missed.
I really like Rooftop in my list. Yes, sometimes it's a combo, but much of the time it's just been value.
I play the deck generally as an aggro strategy with some removal, but don't care if my creatures trade off, because I'm packing a few mass reanimation spells. One of my goals is to get Noxious Ghoul in the yard, mass reanimate, and then not care what everyone else brings back, because they die to the -1/-1s from NG.
It's not uncommon to have 2-4 zombies in my hand turn 5, 6, 7, and while I can pitch them to Varina to reanimate, if I draw a Rooftop, I can drop that and empty my hand as well.
Conversely, Rooftop is amazing with Havenghoul Lich!
What I like about this deck (and it is similar to yours) is that it has so many paths to victory: zombie beatdown, one-sided board wipe backed up by zombie beatdown, "fair" aristocrats effects and Gary to drain out the table, and sometimes you just "Oops, infinite combo" with some pieces that are just generally good in the deck on their own. I had that more often when the deck was helmed by Grimgrin, since it meant I always had a sac outlet available, but Varina just chugs along.
Having more ways to fill your hand is important. I put Sorin in my list and he's been great the one time I've dropped him.
That’s fair enough. I guess it’s just something I don’t want to make room for. Similarly I’m building a grid is superfriends deck at present, and I just can’t bring myself to include omniscience in the list, even though Vial Smasher is at the helm. It’s just too much like ‘easy mode’.
You mentioned Gary, too. How has he worked out in your build? From memory I think he was one of my early cuts here, purely because my black devotion was never a huge deal. Not sure whether that would be the case now or not, but adding a couple mass reanimation spells could really make him pop. On the offside though, he is another card at 5cmc, where I’ve got a bit of a hump as it is.
I think I've cast him only once or twice, but I'm running Patriarch's Bidding, Zombie Apocalypse, and Living Death, and if I draw into one of these, or a tutor, I pitch all the zombies in my hand to Varina then reanimate everybody.
I've also recycled him a few times in one turn with Rooftop Storm, a sac outlet, and Havenghoul.
Honestly, though, you don't need that much devotion to make him really good. Even 4 is decent, netting you 12 life, but I think the smallest I've gotten was devotion 7. I like Sorin, but I would much rather run Gary, in terms of slots devoted to life gain, since he's more easily abused, and can finish the game.
In my list, I've skipped a few of the cards you have, like:
Skullclamp - most of the creatures have 2+ toughness, so you can't equip and draw without a sac outlet, and the deck doesn't have enough for that to be reliable
Nim Deathmantle - do you find yourself activating this much? without comboing, it never seemed worth it to me, especially in a deck that almost always has ways to spend mana
Ashnod's Altar - other than as a combo piece with Deathmantle, I'd rather have Phyrexian Arena
Eldrazi Monument - I generally don't mind my guys dying, but this is probably worth trying, although as a 5 mana artifact, I think I'd prefer Vanquisher's Banner for the draw
Necromancer's Stockpile - I had been running this for a while, but found that I only rarely had the mana to spend to pitch something
Smothering Tithe - going to be good with your wheels, but I don't run any, and haven't wanted to spend 4 mana just to set up future turns
Tombstone Stairwell - I think I need this!
Black Market - See Smothering Tithe (although, this could potentially lead to even bigger turns than Rooftop Storm, I don't like playing this and then waiting for it to do something)
Open the Graves - I've been debating this, but so far haven't been able to commit to a 5 mana enchantment
Command the Dreadhorde - as good as this is, I'm not sure I would run it ahead of other mass reanimation options
I just started running Ilfnir, but haven't seen him in action yet, and otherwise haven't found a need for wheels. I'll try to put up my list when I have some time later.
Oh, and another reason I prefer Rooftop, is that it combos so well with Kindred Discovery. I've had a few games where I played 5+ zombies on turn 6 putting me way ahead of the table. The only wraths I care about exile or tuck, and few decks run those, so even if there's a board wipe, I'm usually in the best position to bounce back.
Thanks very much, I'm glad this has been of use to you I'd be happy to look over your list, hopefully you might get some other interest here too.
In general terms, this looks like a swarm list, in that you're looking to make a crap-ton of zombies and turn them sideways with impunity. That's fine and I think it can work just fine.
With Archfiend of Ifnir in the deck, have you considered the possibility of adding some more looting in to accompany him? The pros of doing so are that it fills your yard for reanimation (if that's in your plans), gets your hand full of land and answers when needed, and obviously wrecks face with Archfiend. I'd say looking at either/or with Windfall, Whispering Madness (points for combat synergy here too) and Ancient Excavation could be beneficial. These sort of effects can be a little varied with your opponents, but a lot of the time if you drop the spell at the right time they can be pretty disruptive - especially if you're doing it repeatedly with Whispering Madness, or just saving the effect for yourself with Ancient Excavation.
I see Rooftop Storm in the list here. Great, flavourful card. Is it there for combo potential or cost reduction? In my opinion (and this is purely because I'm not into dedicated combo myself) if you're not planning on going infinite with it, I'd free up the space; it's a great effect, but at the point in the game where you're casting this if it's not winning you the game there's other stuff I'd rather be casting. Thinking on it, you've definitely got infinite here already with it in a number of ways anyway. That's just me though; it's totally fine to combo off with this, or have it in here purely from a Vorthos perspective.
Victimize seems strangely alone in terms of single target reanimation. Is this purely from a budget perspective? Dread Return could be reasonable for that too, otherwise Reanimate is nice if you can afford it. Generally though, unless I've got ways to recycle instants and sorceries a la Dralnu, Lich Lord I prefer to use reanimation that comes stapled to something. Have you given any thought to Havengul Lich or Mikaeus, the Unhallowed? Either could do excellent things here, and the Lich comes with the ability to double up on any activated abilities you might want to nab. He's a little costly, but you're running plenty of rocks here, including Ashnod's Altar so you should be able to field some decent burst mana. Considering all of that, Mike could be good with all those sacrifice outlets anyway. At the very least he gives you some redundancy in combat, as well as lots of death triggers and etb triggers from your bleeder zombies.
I'm really glad to see Tombstone Stairwell here, it's a savagely good card. Most times casting it wins the game for me, if not on the spot very shortly after casting. It is again something that will reward looting a little more, so don't be afraid to lean into that with Windfall effects and things like Necromancer's Stockpile.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on what's worked and what hasn't for you, thanks again for the feedback!
Victimize is just insane value, but I realized that the deck plays better when I focus on churning through the deck with Varina and attackers, then using a mass reanimate...this is why Gisa and Gerald as well as Havengul Lich have been removed. Spending my turns on single reanimation targets (unless I’m tossing a token to bring back key utility creatures) proved slower than I could afford, so it’s attack, cycle for respond cards, then bring everything back to overwhelm.
Haven’t tested tombstone yet, but certainly feels like the perfect deck for it. Army of the Damned similarly is a bomb but too slow to let 3 turns pass before they matter (besides sack value but tombstone does that better too maybe).
As far as the Archfiend synergies, I would suggest that they’re not too far from what Varina does anyway. You want to be filling your yard, and they do that fairly well. I’d say the best of the bunch is Ancient Excavation in that you can pick and choose what you want to hold and what to drop; the synergy with Archfiend is incidental. I’ve found them pretty good for hitting land drops and filling the yard. Personally I need a couple more mass reanimate spells before I’m golden, but they’ve done well for giving me value in hand, the synergy with Archfiend is sort of just a happy coincidence.
Also weighing if a remove fact or fiction for mystic remora...I feel like tombstone, it’s a card we should all be playing more but upkeep is scary
As far as Tombstone Stairwell goes, don’t be afraid of the upkeep. If you’re dropping it at the right time it will drastically turn the tide. Most games I don’t have to pay the upkeep more than once, lets put it that way. Pair it with Black market or an altar and you can pay the upkeep indefinitely. Pair it with a zombie aristocrat and the game will just drop away from your table, it’s that good.
There is no offense to be taken. I'm aware you are on a budget, but I made the recommendations primarily because this is a primer thread and I think it's important to bring up those cards for people who aren't restrained by the same monetary constraints.
With that said, I disagree regarding Alhammarret's Archive. It's a redundant card that serves the same purpose that Kindred Discovery does, albeit ONLY if Varina is in play. It turns Varina into a real card advantage engine. She needs the help because she is a commander that, let's be honest, is a weaker version of Sidisi, Brood Tyrant in immediate function. Without support, she is designed to pitch cards to generate tokens at the cost of 2. Even with the support of Zombie tribal, she won't be as efficient at the same tasks as Sidisi with the might of milling shenanigans like Mesmeric Orb, Embalmer's Tools, Altar of Dementia, etc. Sidisi does that for free, doesn't require any attacks with its support package, and has access to the same artifact/enchantment hate in Sultai. What sets Varina apart is that, with the appropriate support of these draw enablers, she creates far more card advantage than Sidisi can with the same tribal backing.
Overall, I'd agree with you if Varina was in the 99, but it's the one consistent creature that you can count upon. If you are choosing to introduce Kindred Discovery, and have no monetary constraints, I see no reason why Archive shouldn't be included for redundancy. The reality is Kindred Discovery is going to attract attention the moment you drop it, I mean it has to or you will run away with the game, and someone is going to remove it. You need redundant effects, especially when not having something with heavy draw significantly weakens Varina. I'd much rather have a superior, Zombie tribal version of Edric, Spymaster of Trest than what Varina starts out as. If cost weren't a factor, I'd argue that Alhammarret's Archive is more deserving of a 5CC slot than Black Market, a card with diminishing returns without something like Exsanguinate or Torment of Hailfire, or Open the Graves, which creates a new vector for the Gravecrawler combo, however it's in a form that cannot win the game on the spot.
On a side note, I've noticed that you've increasingly gone into this discard theme. In that case, I'd recommend going back and taking a second look at Zombie Infestation. I really don't know what to take out for it, perhaps Dreadhorde Invasion, but I'd much rather be tossing cards to make Zombies, which fuels your win-condition, than ditching cards to give Putrid Imp flying.
EDIT: Correction, I thought it was a primer and now see it was not tagged as such. Still, I think it's valuable to bring up those more expensive options for those with the resources. I also wanted to add that Archfiend of Ifnir is a far more powerful addition than I initially gave it credit for. I've playtested it in a couple of games and having both it and Varina in play can do a significant amount of damage to the other sides board presence. Only issue I am having is that 5CC slot for creatures is a little full and it's hard to figure out what to remove for it. I've contemplated taking a break from Ghoulcaller Gisa to test the Archfiend out more.
I couldn't agree more on Archive. It's been great for me and the added redundancy (alongside Discovery) makes Psychosis Crawler particularly potent. Kindred Discovery and Archive are why I even bother to play Reliquary Tower and Thought Vessel. And the life gain bonus is not negligible either.
Speaking of 5-drops, I tried out Archfiend on your recommendation and it's been nothing less than stellar. Thanks!
I'm currently testing Tombstone Stairwell and excited to see how it plays.
Etali, Primal Storm EDH
Yeah, not a primer yet at least. Even though I'm on the committee, no one gets a free ride You raise a good point though; it might be a moot point for me, but I do want to encourage critical discussion of options here. Considering how new Varina is, it's probably worth discussing optimal inclusions (although for what it's worth I think she's wide open in design, so will probably never be 'solved' in the classic sense of say a commander like Omnath, Locus of Rage).
I get where you're going with the comparison to Sidisi, although there's some big differences in that Sidisi needs a dedicated mill package. Similarly, Varina needs tribal support, whether that's in token or 'real' creature forms. It's sort of apples and oranges, although there's a reasonable comparison to be made in terms of how easily they can grow a token army. Honestly, this is part of why I haven't gone full swarm, it just doesn't naturally suit her, to my mind. Doable, but not as efficient as possible.
I don't necessarily disagree, to be fair. The addition life gain I could take or leave. The extra draw, it's decent, albeit dependent on other pieces being in play to really optimise value (Mystic Remora, Varina etc). That being said, a card draw doubler really needs to lead into draws that end the game on the spot, or turn the game on the spot. I don't run Exsanguinate here, or Torment of Hailfire, and that probably won't change. I do need to look at more mass reanimation spells which could fill this slot. I'm currently considering Finale of Eternity, and I could definitely look at Zombie Apocalypse, although ultimately given all the removal in this deck Rise of the Dark Realms would ultimately be the optimal choice, probably even over Patriarch's Bidding, considering that Bidding is usually less than one-sided. I also sort of agree with both Market and Graves - they're reasonably ok if you're playing into them, but they are both a little conditional and require other pieces to really excel. Of the two, I'd prefer to drop Open the Graves. Market is Smothering Tithe #2, and they're both valued mana bursts, considering I don't have a rock package here.
Yeah, I've looked at Zombie Infestation, and even had it in here for a tiny bit. I didn't really give it a full run, so it could well give more value than what I saw while it was here. I'd probably cut Graf Harvest for it, if anything. Menace is nice, but I'm almost never going to exile creatures from my yard. I like Infestation is instant speed, I like that the token enters untapped. The only issue I have with going all in on discard is being able to recur non-zombie spells; I have nothing here that can do it. I've considered Possessed Skaab or Dralnu, Lich Lord, but both are at that coveted 5CMC slot (see below). Putrid Imp isn't necessarily in here as a discard outlet; it happens to be a low costed zombie with potential evasion that curves into Varina's effect without her having to swing personally. The discard outlet is a sometimes happy coincidence, far from something I'm building around. I can work around the threshold effect with Varina's exile trigger, too.
The Archfiend is legitimately nuts, right? I definitely don't see it played as much as it deserves. Also, I have the same issues at 5CMC to be honest. I have 7 creatures at that slot myself, and with a reasonably lean mana package it's hard to justify anything more at that slot.
I figured it wasn't just a discard outlet. I merely brought it up to highlight an existing discard synergy slot, albeit one with another role, that does less than Zombie Infestation. This might be a difference in deck design philosophy, but coming from a former Brago, King Eternal, I tend to focus early game drops in mana rocks with any deck that touches UW, outside of Bant. This has been especially true for me with Varina because a lot of the 1CC and 2CC Zombies have historically been complete garbage. There was once a time when your best option for an Eternal format Zombie tribal deck for a 1CC was Festering Goblin or Sarcomancy. Those days have gotten better, but the majority of the "scary" Zombies cost 3CC, 4CC, and 5CC. As a result, I prefer to ramp early rather than dedicate a lot of slots to "beatstick" Zombies. That early drop strategy, in my opinion, works better for Edgar Markov.
Definitely a difference in design philosophy. My experience has been that mana rocks are the way to go because my 1CC and 2CC slots aren't being populated by many Zombies. If Black Market works, keep it.
As for the comparison between Smothering Tithe and Black Market, I see where you are coming from, but I think they are very different. For one, Smothering Tithe produces effectively produces any color of mana, which I greatly prefer over Black Market producing only B. Smothering Tithe also generates that mana through the natural progression of the game and is more punishing early in the game. T1 Sol Ring/Mana Crypt and T2 Plains/Dual, which is where I prefer to get into my ramp, into Smothering Tithe is a bad day for everyone else and you don't have to do anything other than set it and forget it. Black Market can sort of do that, but only if your opponents like crashing their creatures into things or destroying a lot of things themselves. More often, you are going to want to drop Black Market when you can generate a lot of charge counters yourself, which requires more set-up because that is often going to mean needing more than 5 mana accessible at that time.
I prefer Rooftop Storm in that slot because paying 6 mana into it still allows you to dump Zombies that could have been dropped in the same turn. Like Smothering Tithe, ramping into it in the early game is also a great position to be in. Unfortunately, it's a lot harder to do because it costs 6CC.
I wouldn't have recommended it anyway. I brought up those two cards because they represent why Black Market is often played, for the same reason Mana Echoes sees play in only some decks that could technically slot it in. They are expensive cards that produce very specific mana, a lot of it mind you, and best function when backed up by cards that can make use of the excess mana. If your average mana cost is between 3 and 4 mana, and you aren't running those X cards/effects, its extra mana that you often aren't going to need.
This is a tricky problem. I've been fortunate where G dominates my area. You can find Reclamation Sage, Spore Frog, Bane of Progress, and Eternal Witness just about everywhere. My only answer to that has been to depend on removal to force those creatures into the graveyard and to use The Scarab God, Gravespawn Sovereign, and Havengul Lich to use those toolboxes myself.
Ghoulcaller Gisa is where I am leaning right now. Once upon a time, I ran Ghoulcaller Gisa as a monoblack Zombie commander, which is part of the reason I've held onto her. However, with the addition of U and W, I have far more ways to create those same tokens than I ever had in that monoblack deck. I'm not certain that she is quite "cutting the mustard" anymore.
Yeah, I think there's some relevance there. I've done much the same with my Dralnu build, although dropping more rocks than a landslide works well there purely on account of playing well into my likely win condition of overwhelming advantage with Paradox Engine. I don't have that here, although I can see the benefit of some high impact rocks here, purely to be able to hit that 5-6 CMC creature slot earlier and put pressure on the board and still hold mana for incidental value or removal. I think the low CMC zombies lean fairly heavily into Varina's ability, and without her on the field things are a little more tenuous; outside of the obvious value of Gravecrawler, they're chump blockers and not much else. I could see adapting, although my low cost zombies generally do have some intrinsic value. Putrid Imp and Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim I could see dropping from the low end of the curve as the weakest spots at present.
Thing is, Black Market has come up so rarely I'm not sure if it does work or not. Tithe is obviously gross, but it's a definite target once it resolves. That's fine, the treasure tokens are separate entities, and that's not the case with Market. The fact that it requires a wipe from me or some heavy combat makes it more of a corner case, too. I could see losing it in the respect that it requires a fair degree of set up and it's vulnerable to destruction - putting all of your eggs in one basket isn't ideal, especially when you can only spend them in one colour at a specific time of your turn only. The issue I have with directly swapping for rocks is not really having access to the higher impact rocks I'd need. I have the relevant signets, I don't have Mana Crypt, Mana Vault et al, so for my particular build it's concerning adding a suite of rocks if I can't really optimise the suite.
Yeah, it's something I probably won't add to my list. Too easy to combo out with, and that's just not me. I'd be just as happy with a mass reanimator in that slot to achieve a similar end without being capable of that level off degeneracy.
I mean I've kind of worked around it in terms of redundancy - not sure if you've noticed, there's a fairly high density of wipes and single target removal in my build. That way, if/when I'm looting or discarding I can keep the most versatile or relevant version of what I need without having to worry about not having an answer to the game state. I have your options available to me in Scarab and Lich, so there's that. I don't think it's a major issue, it just means the deck can't scrap it out indefinitely.
I haven't brought her into play to test her out here, honestly. She just hasn't come up. Similarly, God-Eternal Oketra has only come up the once, too, and it was with a handful of heavily costed creatures, which was hardly a test of her optimal value. They're my two possible flex slots at 5 at present, I just don't know if they stay purely because I haven't had the opportunity to trial them.
Thanks for verifying this. I think with Archive I'm desperately hoping to come into some coin before I can add a copy. Psychosis Crawler is an interesting add too, hadn't really thought of that here. It could be savage.
Very much glad to see more folk getting on the train to Ifnir, that demon has performed remarkably well for me. It's funny, there's a ton of people out there that don't know it well. They're like 'oh, that's cute...wait lemme read that....oh damn'. It's always hilarious. Best of luck with Tombstone Stairwell, too. I trust it will do gross things for you. It's been a really strong add for me in conjunction with most of the key pieces here.
I'm beginning to realize that this deck does very well in a casual setting even though Varina is only considered a mid-power commander. In a lot of my games, I usually find myself the archenemy, especially since I play value cards such as Archfiend of Ifnir, The Scarab God, and surprisingly Lazav, The Multifarious. People are starting to catch on to Ifnir's synergy with Varina and have removed him on sight as well. However, in my Varina Reanimator build, Lazav has been a champ due to his synergy with Varina's selective discard.
I'll have Lazav copy a binned Sun Titan before combat to get the trigger, therefore recurring the things I pitched with Varina's ability. My favorite play was swinging in with some zombie tokens made by Scarab God, and then after the block phase, turning Lazav into Vizier of the Scorpion, killing every creature that blocked!
I still struggle with whether I want to commit to zombie tribal as my first deck to build since I sometimes doubt its viability, but I think it's time to pull the trigger. I will start assembling the individual cards and hopefully build it soon.
I've been trying to find ways overall to slot more draw into the deck to allow me to keep playing spells rapidly and continue having a hand large enough to sculp...many games i'll find myself down to 1 or 2 cards and struggle to pick the best option to hold onto. Bringing this as well as Mystic Remora into the deck is important.
I'm honestly considering losing both Rooftop Storm and Liliana, Untouched by Death since they're both necessary for the optimal play, and when playing tutorless, i'm sure card draw and selection is better than a single multipoint combo (esp when the Altars and Gravecrawler already handle that need).
I've considered this too, there's a lot of bleeder variants you could add if you wanted to. I don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole personally, but if you're down with ultimate aristocrats the first thing I'd add is Zulaport Cutthroat, followed closely by Cruel Celebrant, Blood Artist and a few more sac outlets.
Interesting to hear this about Lazav, the Multifarious. He seems like an opportunistic Havengul Lich in that respect. It's a little bit of a trade off, I guess, there's pro's and con's to running either of these. Lich is more costly but gives you access to all graveyards, any time you like. Lazav is cheaper, and his ability is cheaper too, but he doesn't add more numbers to your board state like Lich does. The floating mana is not often something I can manage early (although I have trialled adding the Signet suite back in which helped a bit here), but I can definitely see how you'd like this for an early tempo swing. Actually makes me wonder if OG Lazav, Dimir Mastermind would suit a place here - hexproof is a hell of a thing, and being able to change him to whatever you like at will has its benefits.
Ultimately, I think you need at least a couple of value adds in the tribe to make it worth running Varina at all. There's a reasonable degree of value in the tribe these days to the point where you don't need to add garbage creatures to fill out your list. And personally I think there's enough other bits to include in terms of removal/reanimation/ramp/draw that you don't need to dump everything into the list that has zombie in the name, either. Just pick and choose the select pieces you want and go from there is my suggestion. Any flex spots you can fill with the pieces you want to add for synergy, such as Lazav.
Yeah, this has been important for me too. Mystic Remora, Kindred Discovery, Skullclamp, Midnight Reaper have all done work for me there. I also think it's something to work on in terms of the way you play out your hand. There's decks which reward playing out your entire hand on to the table and pushing forward, and there's decks that reward a more hesitant approach. Being as I've built mine without combo in mind, mine is definitely the latter. That should be clear purely in terms of the amount of removal I run, a lot of which is instant speed. Strategically, I aim to have a reasonable board state with at least 1-2 answers and 1-2 blowout spells held back in hand as an ideal state of the game. From there it comes down to timing my lines of play correctly, and Varina I use to help optimise my hand and optimise the value of whatever blowout spell I might have, whether that be Living Death or Tombstone Stairwell.
I can definitely see why you'd cut those. They're both pretty thirsty cards in their own ways, and if they're your combo line you really need to build around speeding into them to optimise how that looks. That being said, they both have some degree of intrinsic value in themselves, although Lili is definitely more so - she's removal, graveyard filler, reanimation enabler. Rooftop Storm is definitely the combo enabler here, and if it's proving too tough to make that work I could see it going. That being said there's plenty of combos you could work into the list that wouldn't require Rooftop Storm. We can go over some of these if you like.
By the time I have Rooftop Storm in hand, i'm usually happy with my board-state and am working toward a mass reanimation. Liliana is capable of doing work on her own, but I don't really want to be milling as much as cycling (in case I lose important response spells) and she is ideally ult'd the turn she drops with rooftop on the field to play all my yard zombies for free. I think I may lose them both for Mystic Remora and another reanimation play (maybe Command the Dreadhorde or Finale of Eternity from WAR? Don't want to spend too much more and would love other cheap choices for resolving a zombie tribal plan) and keep dropping my deck's CMC.
Mind sharing some of those other combos? I try to keep them to a minimum since again, not running tutors...but Gravecrawler + Phyrexian Altar are great with zombistocrat package, or paired with God-Eternal Oketra.
This is almost bang on why I don't play it - short of comboing out, it's just win-more. Varina doesn't need a swarm. As far as replacement goes, I'm trialling both Command the Dreadhorde and Finale of Eternity at present, but have drawn neither yet. I'll report back once I've got something for you. As an aside though, I mentioned earlier in the thread adding Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord. It's been actually really good value thus far. The lifelink is great, and the reanimation is cheap.
You've touched on one here with the bleeder effects, and that's probably whats most natural for a tribal zombie build. The other really obvious route you could go would be Aetherflux Reservoir lifegain build. That thing is hard to stop, and you're in colours to run Sydri, Galvanic Genius to give it lifelink. There's bound to be a ton of shenanigans there with Soul Sisters, Archangel of Thune and the blatantly obvious and eye roll inducing Sanguine Bond/Exquisite Blood combo. This would probably need a completely different build to be fair.
You could also go for a Paradox Engine zombie storm build. There's a couple of game winning storm spells in Tendrils of Agony, Bitter Ordeal and Mind's Desire, and these variants would probably fit fairly well with spamming Gravecrawler and Phyrexian Altar. While Paradox Engine doesn't go infinite on its own, if you're running enough rocks it'll pretty much feel like it. I run it in my Dralnu, Lich Lord build, and it just wins games. If it lands, you are 100% golden.
I guess you could fit Mike and Trike/Ballista in here as an obvious combo, too, and add Necrotic Ooze for consistency. There's plenty of options in Esper, these are just what I can pull off the top of my head as most likely to see/most likely to work in Varina.
You're welcome re the combo stuff - although to be fair I really only have a passing knowledge of combo builds, so there's bound to be bits I've missed.
I play the deck generally as an aggro strategy with some removal, but don't care if my creatures trade off, because I'm packing a few mass reanimation spells. One of my goals is to get Noxious Ghoul in the yard, mass reanimate, and then not care what everyone else brings back, because they die to the -1/-1s from NG.
It's not uncommon to have 2-4 zombies in my hand turn 5, 6, 7, and while I can pitch them to Varina to reanimate, if I draw a Rooftop, I can drop that and empty my hand as well.
Conversely, Rooftop is amazing with Havenghoul Lich!
What I like about this deck (and it is similar to yours) is that it has so many paths to victory: zombie beatdown, one-sided board wipe backed up by zombie beatdown, "fair" aristocrats effects and Gary to drain out the table, and sometimes you just "Oops, infinite combo" with some pieces that are just generally good in the deck on their own. I had that more often when the deck was helmed by Grimgrin, since it meant I always had a sac outlet available, but Varina just chugs along.
Having more ways to fill your hand is important. I put Sorin in my list and he's been great the one time I've dropped him.
You mentioned Gary, too. How has he worked out in your build? From memory I think he was one of my early cuts here, purely because my black devotion was never a huge deal. Not sure whether that would be the case now or not, but adding a couple mass reanimation spells could really make him pop. On the offside though, he is another card at 5cmc, where I’ve got a bit of a hump as it is.
I think I've cast him only once or twice, but I'm running Patriarch's Bidding, Zombie Apocalypse, and Living Death, and if I draw into one of these, or a tutor, I pitch all the zombies in my hand to Varina then reanimate everybody.
I've also recycled him a few times in one turn with Rooftop Storm, a sac outlet, and Havenghoul.
Honestly, though, you don't need that much devotion to make him really good. Even 4 is decent, netting you 12 life, but I think the smallest I've gotten was devotion 7. I like Sorin, but I would much rather run Gary, in terms of slots devoted to life gain, since he's more easily abused, and can finish the game.
Skullclamp - most of the creatures have 2+ toughness, so you can't equip and draw without a sac outlet, and the deck doesn't have enough for that to be reliable
Nim Deathmantle - do you find yourself activating this much? without comboing, it never seemed worth it to me, especially in a deck that almost always has ways to spend mana
Ashnod's Altar - other than as a combo piece with Deathmantle, I'd rather have Phyrexian Arena
Eldrazi Monument - I generally don't mind my guys dying, but this is probably worth trying, although as a 5 mana artifact, I think I'd prefer Vanquisher's Banner for the draw
Necromancer's Stockpile - I had been running this for a while, but found that I only rarely had the mana to spend to pitch something
Smothering Tithe - going to be good with your wheels, but I don't run any, and haven't wanted to spend 4 mana just to set up future turns
Tombstone Stairwell - I think I need this!
Black Market - See Smothering Tithe (although, this could potentially lead to even bigger turns than Rooftop Storm, I don't like playing this and then waiting for it to do something)
Open the Graves - I've been debating this, but so far haven't been able to commit to a 5 mana enchantment
Command the Dreadhorde - as good as this is, I'm not sure I would run it ahead of other mass reanimation options
I just started running Ilfnir, but haven't seen him in action yet, and otherwise haven't found a need for wheels. I'll try to put up my list when I have some time later.
Oh, and another reason I prefer Rooftop, is that it combos so well with Kindred Discovery. I've had a few games where I played 5+ zombies on turn 6 putting me way ahead of the table. The only wraths I care about exile or tuck, and few decks run those, so even if there's a board wipe, I'm usually in the best position to bounce back.