Regarding Gary, I agree. I think it’s worth squeezing him in here. I played a game last night prior to your post, and I was trying to envision what sort of devotion I’d have had at the point in the game I needed something like him. Probably would have been 7 easy.
Nim Deathmantle - yeah it hasn’t really done much. I’ve actually tried swapping it out for Finale of Eternity the last couple of games, and I haven’t missed it. Finale hasn’t been spectacular, so I think I’ll end up with something else in this slot either way, but the Deathmantle hasn’t really been stunning. Ashnod’s Altar - I’ll assume you meant Phyrexian Altar, not arena. Truly, the only reason I don’t run this Altar is because it’s capable of going infinite with a few pieces I run here. Your strategies may vary, but it’s not something I want in my build. I’m just not a combo player. Eldrazi Monument has been super strong. Get a Gravecrawler on the field and you’re golden. I don’t mind my guys dying either, but with this out I get to decide when that happens. Necromancer’s Stockpile - I have to admit to preferring Zombie Infestation. I don’t really care about the draw on Stockpile, and for the same cost, with infestation and Varina in play I can get twice the zombies that Stockpile provides. It’s one that’s in a flex spot at present. Smothering Tithe - it’s probably not worth it without the wheels. It does get targeted, but it gives me burst mana and/or colour fixing, and it can do that pretty early. Given the 5cmc hump I’ll take what I can get. Tombstone Stairwell - you definitely need this. It’s nuts. Black Market - definitely in a flex spot. It’s been a bit win more when landed, plus it’s a target and leaning into it means taking a huge risk that you lose it prior to being able to use it. I know when I see it I wait for someone to up the counters on it then ping it. Conmand the Dreadhorde - I’ve more or less come to the same conclusion. This needs to be Zombie Apocalypse. Ayli, Eternal pilgrim - yeah, she doesn’t get used a ton. Again, she’s in a flex spot. She sort of came into the list to account for a lack of removal options, but I now feel like I have enough options here to let go of her and free up a slot for something else.
You more or less hit all of the cards I’m looking at other options for. If nothing else I should drop three of these for the signets, for early mana. I want to grab Zombie Apocalypse too, if not Bidding or Realms (those last two are probably out of price range though). I’m going to see what I can do to pick up Alhammaret’s archive at some point, and I’m going to get Zombie Infestation back in here too. Gary is a possibility to add, don’t see why I can’t give him a test run.
My only problem with Infestation was that it’s hard keeping enough cards in hand to profitably churn with Varina, so discarding cards without drawing hurts. I did have one spectacular game with it though, where I had our Rooftop, Kindred, and something else drawing me cards, and I would pitch two cards to make a zombie and draw two until I hit an actual zombie, cast it, draw 2 and keep going. Drew the whole deck.
Still cut it.
Alhammaret’s I cut. Had it out only once or twice, and it was good, but I found I was never playing it if I had basically any other half decent card in my hand. It probably should be in here, since it helps solve the cards in hand issue.
My only problem with Infestation was that it’s hard keeping enough cards in hand to profitably churn with Varina, so discarding cards without drawing hurts. I did have one spectacular game with it though, where I had our Rooftop, Kindred, and something else drawing me cards, and I would pitch two cards to make a zombie and draw two until I hit an actual zombie, cast it, draw 2 and keep going. Drew the whole deck.
I did a playtest with it yesterday. Generally, I'd prefer to play out cards from my hand as they suit, so no probs there, that's what I did. This particular game, I was up against a guy spammming Mindslaver repeatedly. He chose me at one point, so prior to my turn I sacrificed anything that could be used against me (Ashnod's Altar, Varina, Lich Queen in this case) and dropped anything that could harm me from my hand into Infestation for tokens, to leave him as vanilla a board as I could. Granted this isn't going to happen every game, but it isn't without its uses. Similarly to my Dralnu build, I think a lot of the time the key is knowing what to pitch and when. With Dralnu it's pretty common to have a double digit hand size, so I'm confident to pitch lands if I need to, or an answer for later. Here, it depends if I have free mana and whats in hand. If I have incidental mana I'll pitch the odd land or non-zombie spell I don't need to turn it into a body. That's the thing, you can only play so many cards, and holding on to all of them is often relatively unnecessary. Here, pitching zombies benefits our reanimation, and anything that isn't a zombie we can turn into one anyway. I get what you're saying though, and I think it depends on how one uses the card. It could very easily be abused to one's detriment.
Alhammaret’s I cut. Had it out only once or twice, and it was good, but I found I was never playing it if I had basically any other half decent card in my hand. It probably should be in here, since it helps solve the cards in hand issue.
I mean, I'm not hugely convinced by Archive. Given how much it costs, I'd rather have something else, and without Varina (or some other existing draw engine) it does nothing for 5. And at present, I'm pretty happy with hand size through different stages of the game, I can keep a good sized grip, so it doesn't strike me as being totally necessary. I'd prefer a reliable draw engine that doesn't require anything else in play to work.
Smothering Tithe - going to be good with your wheels, but I don't run any, and haven't wanted to spend 4 mana just to set up future turns
Tithe tends to be more explosive if you are running a suite of tutors and mana rocks. If you can swing it, the goal is to get it out before T4. It's also about the best option Esper can hope for to create any sort of ramp.
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I mean, I'm not hugely convinced by Archive. Given how much it costs, I'd rather have something else, and without Varina (or some other existing draw engine) it does nothing for 5. And at present, I'm pretty happy with hand size through different stages of the game, I can keep a good sized grip, so it doesn't strike me as being totally necessary. I'd prefer a reliable draw engine that doesn't require anything else in play to work.
We are in the disadvantageous position of being in black, but being unable to play Necropotence because we are one of the few decks that is going to consistently trigger it's downside. We are also at a disadvantage without green because Sylvan Library is off of the table. Nearly all of our options are only reliable when they interact with existing pieces. My experience remains that Varina ditches so many of her own resources while also playing cards every turn that it has to be addressed or you feel like you are topdecking the whole game.
My only problem with Infestation was that it’s hard keeping enough cards in hand to profitably churn with Varina, so discarding cards without drawing hurts. I did have one spectacular game with it though, where I had our Rooftop, Kindred, and something else drawing me cards, and I would pitch two cards to make a zombie and draw two until I hit an actual zombie, cast it, draw 2 and keep going. Drew the whole deck.
I'll fully disclose that I run the main tutors in my own build, so maybe that's why I bank on having draw in some capacity, but I feel like you had might as well just assume that you will have some type of draw because, without it, you are probably going to lose with Varina anyway. Not having any draw online, Zombie Infestation in play or even some other card in play that fills its slot, is going to be an extremely difficult position to overcome because she will only ever loot on her own and the Zombie tokens she will generate from doing so are too insignificant to eliminate three players in combat. Between that and playing your own cards on your turns, you are, inevitably, going to run dry. I tend to lean heavily into drawing and, to be honest, I still feel like it's not enough. Undead Augur, especially if you are fortunate enough to combo it with Tombstone Stairwell, is going to help, but I'd still like even more.
Not all cards are going to be useful, and as I only run two permanents that even create a limitless handsize, I tend to assume that I have to discard beyond 7. If you are going to be pitching the worst options anyway during your end phase, might as well make more Zombies out of it.
We are in the disadvantageous position of being in black, but being unable to play Necropotence because we are one of the few decks that is going to consistently trigger it's downside. We are also at a disadvantage without green because Sylvan Library is off of the table. Nearly all of our options are only reliable when they interact with existing pieces. My experience remains that Varina ditches so many of her own resources while also playing cards every turn that it has to be addressed or you feel like you are topdecking the whole game.
I don’t disagree. I haven’t found myself top decking overly, but I’m very aware it’s a possibility in any game. I’m just not convinced that Archive is the best answer. Rhystic Study is probably the best we get, followed by Consecrated Sphinx, Nezahal, Primal Tide, maybe Notion Thief or River Kelpie? Not sure.
I'll fully disclose that I run the main tutors in my own build, so maybe that's why I bank on having draw in some capacity, but I feel like you had might as well just assume that you will have some type of draw because, without it, you are probably going to lose with Varina anyway. Not having any draw online, Zombie Infestation in play or even some other card in play that fills its slot, is going to be an extremely difficult position to overcome because she will only ever loot on her own and the Zombie tokens she will generate from doing so are too insignificant to eliminate three players in combat. Between that and playing your own cards on your turns, you are, inevitably, going to run dry. I tend to lean heavily into drawing and, to be honest, I still feel like it's not enough. Undead Augur, especially if you are fortunate enough to combo it with Tombstone Stairwell, is going to help, but I'd still like even more.
Not all cards are going to be useful, and as I only run two permanents that even create a limitless handsize, I tend to assume that I have to discard beyond 7. If you are going to be pitching the worst options anyway during your end phase, might as well make more Zombies out of it.
Fully agree. I don’t run tutors obviously, but regardless there’s always a)something you don’t need or b)something you’d prefer in the graveyard.
I definitely agree regarding draw. You need something whenever you’re casting Varina, so redundancy is important.
We are in the disadvantageous position of being in black, but being unable to play Necropotence because we are one of the few decks that is going to consistently trigger it's downside. We are also at a disadvantage without green because Sylvan Library is off of the table. Nearly all of our options are only reliable when they interact with existing pieces. My experience remains that Varina ditches so many of her own resources while also playing cards every turn that it has to be addressed or you feel like you are topdecking the whole game.
I don’t disagree. I haven’t found myself top decking overly, but I’m very aware it’s a possibility in any game. I’m just not convinced that Archive is the best answer. Rhystic Study is probably the best we get, followed by Consecrated Sphinx, Nezahal, Primal Tide, maybe Notion Thief or River Kelpie? Not sure.
I'll fully disclose that I run the main tutors in my own build, so maybe that's why I bank on having draw in some capacity, but I feel like you had might as well just assume that you will have some type of draw because, without it, you are probably going to lose with Varina anyway. Not having any draw online, Zombie Infestation in play or even some other card in play that fills its slot, is going to be an extremely difficult position to overcome because she will only ever loot on her own and the Zombie tokens she will generate from doing so are too insignificant to eliminate three players in combat. Between that and playing your own cards on your turns, you are, inevitably, going to run dry. I tend to lean heavily into drawing and, to be honest, I still feel like it's not enough. Undead Augur, especially if you are fortunate enough to combo it with Tombstone Stairwell, is going to help, but I'd still like even more.
Not all cards are going to be useful, and as I only run two permanents that even create a limitless handsize, I tend to assume that I have to discard beyond 7. If you are going to be pitching the worst options anyway during your end phase, might as well make more Zombies out of it.
Fully agree. I don’t run tutors obviously, but regardless there’s always a)something you don’t need or b)something you’d prefer in the graveyard.
I definitely agree regarding draw. You need something whenever you’re casting Varina, so redundancy is important.
So is anyone actually leaning out of tribal synergies in favor of these "better but off-theme" options? Consecrated Sphinx is fantastic but once you start considering that and others, the deck is simply much better suited to be a control build that makes zombies with Varina to activate her ability.
The opinions are a bit all over the place in this thread, so I wanted to ask in general if Varina pilots in general prefer the power of bombs like Rooftop Storm and Army of the Damned, or if keeping the overall CMC of the deck low is preferable. My build is roughly 3.25 right now, which feels pretty speedy, but there are probably some more ways to get it down unless it's clear the advantage of running high cost synergy cards is worth keeping it up.
Also for what it's worth, here's some thoughts on cards being discussed more. I don't get the chance to play too much so threads like this are so so helpful for me to keep my deck in fighting shape between matches:
Zombie Infestation - since Varina came out, and i've almost never been in a position to take advantage of it's effect---i'm always valuing my hand size and having more options when Varina triggers, especially when her activated ability is so similar.
Archfiend of Ifnir - as stated, asymmetric boardwipes are insanely valuable.
Binding Mummy - think i saw someone here discount it, but that's a mistake...it can be really useful and is frequently undertargeted.
Tombstone Stairwell - need to be more strategic when this is deployed...haven't seen it's true power yet and hope to get it online in my favor soon.
Liliana, Untouched by Death - w/o Rooftop Storm i don't think it's great for a midrange tribal build. Maybe the other Lily's have better use but haven't tried yet
Havengul Lich - this one darts in and out of my build depending on how I feel about single vs. mass reanimation focus. Like mentioned, it's expensive at 5CMC and unless i'm specifically working to gut my opponent's graveyard for value I worry it's more often just a 4/4. Kept it in more a long time for flavor reasons (Lich clan anyone?) but removed it and Gisa and Geralf to focus spending my mana on interaction and new creatures, saving everything in my graveyard for the big plays.
Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord - counter to the above, maybe something like this is good to have for select instances of one-off recursion. Waiting for more opinions on how well it continues to run, but having a pseudo Whip of Erebos with loyalty-costed reanimation seems toolboxy enough even without the flavor.
Anointed Procession - when balancing tribal vs token build, its tough to decide on this, but overall I think it's still worth slotting since even tribal has a ton of incidental token dropping (Oketra, Diregraf, Varina, Noosegraf, etc.)
Smothering Tithe - even without wheels, it's worth it simply to draw out opponent removal or have them suffer the ramp consequences. If another player wheels well then it's payday.
Undead Augur - going to replace a low CMC zombie ASAP for more (scary) draw potential. Midnight Reaper stays in too.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier - I have no traditional tutors in the deck, but having one stapled to one creature can be incredibly helpful so I think it stays just for that. Deathtouch is cool.
The WAR Zombie token enablers are awesome, but other than Gleaming Overseer which comes down before Varina sometimes and makes 2 bodies, I can't imagine any of them replacing other utility slots in a tribal build. Again, token builds may feel differently.
So is anyone actually leaning out of tribal synergies in favor of these "better but off-theme" options? Consecrated Sphinx is fantastic but once you start considering that and others, the deck is simply much better suited to be a control build that makes zombies with Varina to activate her ability.
So, the thing is, I've personally never intentionally built for tribal. We need some degree of zombies for her first ability, so I've always built with the intention of leaning into some of the better value that zombies have. Most of that comes in the form of 'zombies love company', and some of it is in terms looting, both of which work for Varina. When we consider draw for the deck, Seraphym is absolutely right; ideally we would want Necropotence, but that's a commodity we cannot have here, and it hurts. So we're a little hampered in terms of what we do have for optimal draw, which is why I suggest Consecrated Sphinx and such.
The opinions are a bit all over the place in this thread, so I wanted to ask in general if Varina pilots in general prefer the power of bombs like Rooftop Storm and Army of the Damned, or if keeping the overall CMC of the deck low is preferable. My build is roughly 3.25 right now, which feels pretty speedy, but there are probably some more ways to get it down unless it's clear the advantage of running high cost synergy cards is worth keeping it up.
I expected this to happen, purely because she's wide open for builds, and as such isn't a commander you can 'solve'. Personally, I think there's a balance between splashy expensive spells and a low curve. I've talked in the past about my 5 slot being a bit of a hump, and I'm still playtesting for potential chops there. I can absolutely see why Rooftop Storm is in some builds, although I prefer not to have it in mine. Army of the Damned I honestly don't think much of. 13 Zombies entering tapped is well and good, but with Tombstone Stairwell I can get them and attack with them same turn.
I'll touch on some of the more pertinent considerations you've given here:
Zombie Infestation - since Varina came out, and i've almost never been in a position to take advantage of it's effect---i'm always valuing my hand size and having more options when Varina triggers, especially when her activated ability is so similar.
For me, it's a critter on the field at instant speed when I need to attack or need a chump blocker. I'm always careful what I drop, too. It's always a consideration whether to use it or not, but the option of an instant speed zombie is not nothing.
God-Eternal Oketra - auto-include
I've had fair results, although it's still pretty new to the deck. It doesn't work out well with mass reanimation, and rewards a lower curve but otherwise is good value. Another reason to play Liliana, Untouched by Death.
Binding Mummy - think i saw someone here discount it, but that's a mistake...it can be really useful and is frequently undertargeted.
I've had good results with it. Definitely works best in a swarm build, but it's worthy of a slot. From memory I think I removed mine, and I can't remember what for, I'm sick so I'll find out later.
Tombstone Stairwell - need to be more strategic when this is deployed...haven't seen it's true power yet and hope to get it online in my favor soon.
The thing is, there's plenty this gives you huge advantage with. Kindred Discovery, aristocrats, The Scarab God, Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord, zombie lords. All you need is critters in the yard, so ideally you drop this post board wipe and have fun with it.
Liliana, Untouched by Death - w/o Rooftop Storm i don't think it's great for a midrange tribal build. Maybe the other Lily's have better use but haven't tried yet
Being honest, I haven't seen a lot of play with this Lili yet. All of her modes are relevant, although her last is somewhat lessened by not being able to cast zombies for free. Still, that's like saying the game is too hard when it's not on easy mode
Havengul Lich - this one darts in and out of my build depending on how I feel about single vs. mass reanimation focus. Like mentioned, it's expensive at 5CMC and unless i'm specifically working to gut my opponent's graveyard for value I worry it's more often just a 4/4. Kept it in more a long time for flavor reasons (Lich clan anyone?) but removed it and Gisa and Geralf to focus spending my mana on interaction and new creatures, saving everything in my graveyard for the big plays.
I understand the trepidation here, too. It's expensive to use and use adequately. I think it's meta dependent - if you see stuff you can use hitting your opponents'graveyards regularly he's worth it. I haven't seen him come up regularly at all strangely, but I do have my eye on him to hold his weight.
Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord - counter to the above, maybe something like this is good to have for select instances of one-off recursion. Waiting for more opinions on how well it continues to run, but having a pseudo Whip of Erebos with loyalty-costed reanimation seems toolboxy enough even without the flavor.
I've found him pretty decent. The static ability is nice, and being able to reanimate is solid. Obviously his first ability is a little lackluster but it's not nothing. It just means if you want something on board immediately after dropping him it's going to be a weenie.
Anointed Procession - when balancing tribal vs token build, its tough to decide on this, but overall I think it's still worth slotting since even tribal has a ton of incidental token dropping (Oketra, Diregraf, Varina, Noosegraf, etc.)
I haven't run this one personally, mostly because I haven't seen it as necessary, but also because I struggle with fitting everything in.
Undead Augur - going to replace a low CMC zombie ASAP for more (scary) draw potential. Midnight Reaper stays in too.
I think we can all agree this one is an auto include. It's well costed card advantage on a body that fits where we want it on the curve.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier - I have no traditional tutors in the deck, but having one stapled to one creature can be incredibly helpful so I think it stays just for that. Deathtouch is cool.
I don't run tutors unless they serve some other purpose. Partly because I think filling a deck with hard tutors is a little uncreative (although if combo is your intent I can see why you would), partly because they're ridiculously expensive, and partly because we could all do with a little less shuffling. Sidisi is really good though. Well costed unconditional tutor on a zombie with combat bonus is excellent.
Quote from from="blinx28 »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/800936-varina-lich-queen-esper-zombie-midrange?comment=138 »
So is anyone actually leaning out of tribal synergies in favor of these "better but off-theme" options? Consecrated Sphinx is fantastic but once you start considering that and others, the deck is simply much better suited to be a control build that makes zombies with Varina to activate her ability.
The opinions are a bit all over the place in this thread, so I wanted to ask in general if Varina pilots in general prefer the power of bombs like Rooftop Storm and Army of the Damned, or if keeping the overall CMC of the deck low is preferable. My build is roughly 3.25 right now, which feels pretty speedy, but there are probably some more ways to get it down unless it's clear the advantage of running high cost synergy cards is worth keeping it up.
I have seen those non-tribal builds and I have to say, I am unimpressed. If Varina's ability triggered off of ANY attacking creature, or if her token generation cost 0, I'd say it's viable. However, the problem you run into is her ability gets exponentially better for every single Zombie in play and it won't take long before the player realizes that. My experience from watching them evolve is that, slowly, they will introduce additional sources of Zombie token generation, along with lords, and then you just end up with a Zombie tribal deck. Just about every tribal build I have ever seen includes a few non-tribal creatures, so considering Consecrated Sphinx doesn't require you to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
As for where to go with your curve, as I said earlier, it's complicated for us. We aren't Edgar Markov where we get a ton of value for cheap, vanilla creatures. A lot of the 2CC and 1CC Zombies are absolute garbage. Zombies also have a ton of lords. Your initial builds will often immediately find your 3CC slots overburdened with little place to go but up because the better Zombies all cost 3CC or more. I am of the opinion that if you want to lower your curve, your 2CC and 1 CC slots are better dedicated to mana rocks. There are a ton of them to pick from.
Quote from from="blinx28 »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/800936-varina-lich-queen-esper-zombie-midrange?comment=138 »
Zombie Infestation - since Varina came out, and i've almost never been in a position to take advantage of it's effect---i'm always valuing my hand size and having more options when Varina triggers, especially when her activated ability is so similar.
This is a flexible spot. As I said earlier, not all of your cards are valuable and, sometimes, I'd rather reach further into my deck with an additional Varina trigger than hold onto a couple of cards that might be relevant later.
Quote from from="blinx28 »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/800936-varina-lich-queen-esper-zombie-midrange?comment=138 »
Tombstone Stairwell - need to be more strategic when this is deployed...haven't seen it's true power yet and hope to get it online in my favor soon.
Your best use of this behemoth is when you have two board conditions present at the same time. One, you need five or more creatures in your cemetery. The more, the better. Two, you need any of the Gravecrawler combo triggers other than the ones that require a hard cast: ie. Vengeful Dead, Diregraf Captain, Wayward Servant, Plague Belcher, etc. You can use it for other things too on your own turn, but where it gets silly is when those triggers are activating from putting those tokens into play or death.
As for the draw issue, Consecrated Sphinx could be a valuable addition. However, I disagree with Nezehal, Primal Tide. The particular ability that it has is best served when played as early as possible. 7CC is a lot of mana for an effect I would have rather had significantly earlier in the game. The only way I'd consider it is if you were already running Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora, Consecrated Sphinx, and then had an additional spot for it.
If we are considering Undead Augur, which I will preface by saying I agree its an autoinclude, I don't see why we wouldn't return to Graveborn Muse as well. Augur, like Archive, requires extra stuff to see a return. You either have to be killing off your own things or counting on your opponent to do it for you. Muse costs 2 more, but will at bare minimum, act as Phyrexian Arena on a body with nothing but itself in play. Even an additional Zombie token next to her nets you 3 cards immediately after your draw phase. Having the Muse in play with even just one other Zombie is hardly what I would call win more and gives you the same return as Sylvan Library for a fraction of the price.
As for the draw issue, Consecrated Sphinx could be a valuable addition. However, I disagree with Nezehal, Primal Tide. The particular ability that it has is best served when played as early as possible. 7CC is a lot of mana for an effect I would have rather had significantly earlier in the game. The only way I'd consider it is if you were already running Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora, Consecrated Sphinx, and then had an additional spot for it.
Pretty much agree, here. Nezahal is Mystic Remora on a creature (different, but similar). It works well in my Dralnu build purely because I can bring it out via Reanimate or Animate Dead for a fraction of its casting cost. Sphinx is undoubtedly stronger in terms of draw power, and if that's what we're considering these for it has to get the nod.
If we are considering Undead Augur, which I will preface by saying I agree its an autoinclude, I don't see why we wouldn't return to Graveborn Muse as well. Augur, like Archive, requires extra stuff to see a return. You either have to be killing off your own things or counting on your opponent to do it for you. Muse costs 2 more, but will at bare minimum, act as Phyrexian Arena on a body with nothing but itself in play. Even an additional Zombie token next to her nets you 3 cards immediately after your draw phase. Having the Muse in play with even just one other Zombie is hardly what I would call win more and gives you the same return as Sylvan Library for a fraction of the price.
This seems fair, too. You aren't required to remove your board presence to benefit from Muse, it's purely life that it demands. And you can still win the game from 1 life.
This seems fair, too. You aren't required to remove your board presence to benefit from Muse, it's purely life that it demands. And you can still win the game from 1 life.
It's the only reason this is the sole black deck that I have that doesn't include Phyrexian Arena. I will gladly pay 1 more for the same effect on a recurable, tribe relevant body with the side benefit as acting as an additional Arena for every other Zombie. She can definitely get life hungry, but she's a creature. The ability is easy to turn off with a sacrifice. One of my other decks is Edgar Markovand I would kill for Champion of Dusk to have her ability.
Yeah. I run Arena here, but I could easily see why you'd run Muse instead. In the right situation she digs deep. And to be fair, when she is digging that deep, she'll become a target anyway, so often you'll find someone wastes spot removal on her before you can sac her. Happened all the time when I ran her in Glissa.
Hmmm. I do like it, but I do think it’s meta dependent. I’d definitely like to try it out here, but I think a lot of the time it’s going to be best in a tempo build, but otherwise it’s not going to protect our stuff. Wipes happen, and if you’re in a control heavy meta one mana isn’t likely to make much of a difference.
This is such a great thread. I have't been playing magic very long and I am making a second deck with Varina as my commander (my first being Mayael), so this thread is a great help and learning a lot from it also.
Has anyone tried Cathar’s Crusade? Feels like it can really scale the anthems and might be good in addition to all the lords and maybe replace Liliana’s Mastery? Or take Sorin’s flex spot and choose anthems over lifegain tech.
I feel like it’d be a decent addition, provided you can make it work quickly. In my experience it lasts a turn or two tips before getting removed. Seems a nice way to follow up from Living Death or a mass reanimation spells of some other kind. From memory I believe the way to play it is to make sure the crusade trigger is last on the pile - that way every creature entering the battlefield gets the full run of counters.
This is such a great thread. I have't been playing magic very long and I am making a second deck with Varina as my commander (my first being Mayael), so this thread is a great help and learning a lot from it also.
It’s nice to hear this. I wish I could take all the credit, but a thread is nothing without a community to bounce ideas from, so I’m glad you found us all. If you have any questions or ideas for a build feel free to chime in!
I feel like it’d be a decent addition, provided you can make it work quickly. In my experience it lasts a turn or two tips before getting removed. Seems a nice way to follow up from Living Death or a mass reanimation spells of some other kind. From memory I believe the way to play it is to make sure the crusade trigger is last on the pile - that way every creature entering the battlefield gets the full run of counters.
You're very right about the delay! I forget that unless its late game it might not even make it around...that's why i removed some high CMC cards already so make sense to hold that philosophy.
Speaking of curve-dropping---i'm trying out Authority of the Consuls as more incidental life gain and a great light and early stax piece that interacts directly with opponent's tempo of dealing with combat.
You're very right about the delay! I forget that unless its late game it might not even make it around...that's why i removed some high CMC cards already so make sense to hold that philosophy.
Yeah, I mean my concern is making it worth casting. There's a few things that can go wrong with Crusade. The enchantment itself could get blown up, or your opponents let you buff your creatures then wipe before you can swing. Those are pretty standard scenarios obviously, so in one sense they're not worth worrying about overly, but if in the best case scenario you still can't make use of Crusade then it shouldn't be in here. The reason it's good in builds like Ghave, Guru of Spores (aside from being grotesque combo juice) is that you can otherwise use those counters on things like Spike Weaver or Ghave itself. We don't overly have that synergy, and in terms of combat I know I don't overly need my creatures to be huge to make an impact. I think in a lower curve tempo build Crusade could do some work if you land it early enough, but if you're casting it on curve you've really got to be able to make it work the turn you cast it, because it is a 'known' card, if you know what I mean.
Speaking of curve-dropping---i'm trying out Authority of the Consuls as more incidental life gain and a great light and early stax piece that interacts directly with opponent's tempo of dealing with combat.
I've considered using this, too. I think there's something to said for it as a moderate control piece, and I think you could say the same for Blind Obedience too - maybe more so, given the extort mechanic. They definitely give you a little more early game impetus to swing into a favourable board state while you dig for a game ender with Varina. My preference here is early ramp and draw, but I'd still like to hear how this plays out for you - my preferences are likely at least to some extent hangovers from building Dralnu, which runs some similar strategies.
Will do——my understanding from long time friends is it’s proven to be invaluable in mono white, and they recommend it in any deck that can play it and uses creatures. Plus for 1CMC it can come down any turn almost as an ancillary cast with leftover mana turns 4-8.
The 5 cmc enchantments were slow and laborious. Market in particular was precarious; big mana at one point during your own turn, contingent on death triggers and the enchanmtent surviving was just too corner case. Dreadhorde was ok, but no Bitterblossom. Too slow to really achieve anything significant. Imp and Ayli were ok, but I'd prefer to have a bigger impact than either provided (Ayli's third ability was why she was in here, and I can't remember the last time I got opportunity to use it). Deathmantle was often redundant, leaving clamp - the only card I'm slightly hesitant to remove. That being said, with 2/2's being the predominant token size it makes the draw that comes with Clamp more laborious to enable, and I don't run a glut of sacrifice outlets.
The signets were an easy addition in terms of colour fixing and early advantage. We've already discussed Infestation. I know there's some on the fence as to it's necessity, so I won't go over it again. I like the options it offers, so we'll see how it plays out. Windfall is great control and digs deep with draws, as well as giving me grave fodder. Reaver is ok, 2 bodies for one is nice. It may well be a placeholder with Modern Horizons' inclement release (see below), but we'll see. We've talked over Muse, too. I think it's worth trying. The life loss we can mitigate and sometimes even reverse, and I think there's a good chance it'll be worth it for the draw it offers, so let's give it a punt (in a similar vein, I'd also considered Corpse Augur, but foregoing it for now). Gary I haven't run here (at least to the best of my recollection), so it's worth a try given I can trigger it more than once.
There's still a few things I'm after at present. I've decided to get a few more mass reanimation spells in here, in the form of Zombie Apocalypse and Patriarch's Bidding - it's just a case of waiting for them to come into stock at my LGS. I have a little credit stored up, so it should be doable. As well as that, we have Modern Horizons coming through soon, too. There's not a lot of auto-include options, but there are a couple that are nice:
Winds of Abandon is at least interesting. I'd be hesitant to include it purely on the basis of ramping my opponent's being a slight detriment. But overload is cool, and it could end games or stalemates in the right scenario. I think it's a meta call; if you see Eldrazi or Colossi, it's worth a thought.
Endling - Not gonna lie, it's kinda cool. One of the better versions of the 'ling' family, it's worth consideration. It does a lot for itself, but it doesn't really serve the deck or the tribe overly. If you find you have extra mana moving to combat it could be a good choice to maximize damage.
Force of Despair - Seems reasonable if you see a lot of swarm, or Primal Surge. Seems like a Krenko hoser to me, if that's in your meta.
Rank Officer - Seems alright, if a little overcosted. I won't be running it, but I can see why you might.
Silumgar Scavenger - It's going to get big, but probably belongs more in an attrition style build more than here.
Etchings of the Chosen - Anthem and pseudo-protection is ok. A zombie player could do worse.
Fallen Shinobi - This is fairly cool. Being as most of our tech is fairly aspected to benefit our deck more than anyone else's I'm not sure playing cards off the top of someone else's pile is anything more than good stuff value, but that's a meta call I guess. I won't be looking at this guy immediately, purely on the basis of my 4-5 slots being pretty well full at present, but again, one to consider if you have extra mana moving into combat commonly.
Unsettled Mariner - Decent two-drop. I don't see a lot of targeted removal aimed at me, so I don't think he'd be overly valuable to me, but I could be calling that wrong.
Altar of Dementia - I know it's a reprint, but it's a damn good one. I think I prefer the mana altars here, even if they are more likely to combo. But if you're running mill a la Undead Alchemist and such, this is pure gold.
I think Talisman of Dominance and the newW/B one are going to be better than the signets, though it's probably worth running all of them. At least all of the ones that produce B. Not sure how I feel about the Azorius-colored ones, since most of the deck is black, though it is nice to get both of our other colors in one spot. I feel like the deck is pretty mana-hungry, so having more mana is never bad, while at the same time, Varina helps alleviate the pain of drawing a mana rock late game when we need gas, by cycling it away on attacks.
Undead Augur we're all in love with, obviously.
Yup!
Generous Gift I want to make some argument about Vindicate, but really, this is just going to be better almost all the time. In my list I have been running Jet Medallion since most of the list is black. There are non-black cards that it isn't helping with though, so it may not be the right call.
Winds of Abandon I think if you're not running Path of Exile it makes little sense to run this. I also think that the deck already has outs against large indestructible creatures with things like Living Death and Noxious Ghoul, not to mention Cyclonic Rift. Cunning Evasion Don't think it's worth it here. Yuriko is another story. Endling Do you find you have mana open to activate something like this very often? Strikes me as being fairly low impact. Force of Despair This looks SOLID, but not sure we need it. I think it's meta-dependent. Rank Officer I'm pretty underwhelmed Silumgar Scavenger There are a few zombies that can get big, that are cheaper. Yeah, this flies, which is a weakness of the deck, to a degree, and it can have haste, but unless you're dropping this then sac'ing the rest of your board to power it up and swing, I don't see it being super-relevant all that often. Etchings of the Chosen I'm torn, but it's an anthem, pseudo-protection, AND a sac outlet. I think individually it's not worth it, but with all those together, it may very well be! I'd want it in my Teysa deck, except I'd want to be able to protect the chosen creature type (Human) rather than have to sac the chosen type (likely Spirit). Fallen Shinobi The way I've been playing, I rarely cast anything before combat once Varina is down, because I want to see what I get off the looting. I think this can be really decent, maybe exciting, but agree that 4/5 mana is a tough spot for this effect. Unsettled Mariner Definitely plenty of strong non-creature permanents here, and especially in my build that this could make challenging to deal with. Not sure How I feel about the casting cost for an early drop, but it could find a slot. Altar of Dementia Yeah. I think it's already pretty easy to fill the yard with Varina, so a self-targeted effect like this isn't necessary, and if you're not going infinite or HUGE with this effect, it's likely not enough to be relevant in an EDH game without additional milling support.
I think Talisman of Dominance and the newW/B one are going to be better than the signets, though it's probably worth running all of them. At least all of the ones that produce B. Not sure how I feel about the Azorius-colored ones, since most of the deck is black, though it is nice to get both of our other colors in one spot. I feel like the deck is pretty mana-hungry, so having more mana is never bad, while at the same time, Varina helps alleviate the pain of drawing a mana rock late game when we need gas, by cycling it away on attacks.
Yeah, the talismans are good. I'm hesitant to wheedle away too much life purely for mana fixing, but being able to produce 1 is nice too. I'm always a little hesitant to go all in on signets anyway on account of requiring 1 to activate, too. They'll do for now, but I think I might replace at least Azorius with a Talisman. You're right, the B is strong here.
I think we're pretty well on the same page about all of the upcoming releases. Generous Gift and Undead Augur are my only locks. In one way I'm sad to lose Vindicate, but Gift is superior in most cases. And, I very much play the same way combat wise. The deck is mana hungry, and I'm always keen to see what comes out of the loot before I tap out, so a lot of these combat tricks are a little wasted here. A lot of it is almost good enough, but not quite there, but the two obvious inclusions are really good.
Regarding Gary, I agree. I think it’s worth squeezing him in here. I played a game last night prior to your post, and I was trying to envision what sort of devotion I’d have had at the point in the game I needed something like him. Probably would have been 7 easy.
Nim Deathmantle - yeah it hasn’t really done much. I’ve actually tried swapping it out for Finale of Eternity the last couple of games, and I haven’t missed it. Finale hasn’t been spectacular, so I think I’ll end up with something else in this slot either way, but the Deathmantle hasn’t really been stunning.
Ashnod’s Altar - I’ll assume you meant Phyrexian Altar, not arena. Truly, the only reason I don’t run this Altar is because it’s capable of going infinite with a few pieces I run here. Your strategies may vary, but it’s not something I want in my build. I’m just not a combo player.
Eldrazi Monument has been super strong. Get a Gravecrawler on the field and you’re golden. I don’t mind my guys dying either, but with this out I get to decide when that happens.
Necromancer’s Stockpile - I have to admit to preferring Zombie Infestation. I don’t really care about the draw on Stockpile, and for the same cost, with infestation and Varina in play I can get twice the zombies that Stockpile provides. It’s one that’s in a flex spot at present.
Smothering Tithe - it’s probably not worth it without the wheels. It does get targeted, but it gives me burst mana and/or colour fixing, and it can do that pretty early. Given the 5cmc hump I’ll take what I can get.
Tombstone Stairwell - you definitely need this. It’s nuts.
Black Market - definitely in a flex spot. It’s been a bit win more when landed, plus it’s a target and leaning into it means taking a huge risk that you lose it prior to being able to use it. I know when I see it I wait for someone to up the counters on it then ping it.
Conmand the Dreadhorde - I’ve more or less come to the same conclusion. This needs to be Zombie Apocalypse.
Ayli, Eternal pilgrim - yeah, she doesn’t get used a ton. Again, she’s in a flex spot. She sort of came into the list to account for a lack of removal options, but I now feel like I have enough options here to let go of her and free up a slot for something else.
You more or less hit all of the cards I’m looking at other options for. If nothing else I should drop three of these for the signets, for early mana. I want to grab Zombie Apocalypse too, if not Bidding or Realms (those last two are probably out of price range though). I’m going to see what I can do to pick up Alhammaret’s archive at some point, and I’m going to get Zombie Infestation back in here too. Gary is a possibility to add, don’t see why I can’t give him a test run.
Still cut it.
Alhammaret’s I cut. Had it out only once or twice, and it was good, but I found I was never playing it if I had basically any other half decent card in my hand. It probably should be in here, since it helps solve the cards in hand issue.
I did a playtest with it yesterday. Generally, I'd prefer to play out cards from my hand as they suit, so no probs there, that's what I did. This particular game, I was up against a guy spammming Mindslaver repeatedly. He chose me at one point, so prior to my turn I sacrificed anything that could be used against me (Ashnod's Altar, Varina, Lich Queen in this case) and dropped anything that could harm me from my hand into Infestation for tokens, to leave him as vanilla a board as I could. Granted this isn't going to happen every game, but it isn't without its uses. Similarly to my Dralnu build, I think a lot of the time the key is knowing what to pitch and when. With Dralnu it's pretty common to have a double digit hand size, so I'm confident to pitch lands if I need to, or an answer for later. Here, it depends if I have free mana and whats in hand. If I have incidental mana I'll pitch the odd land or non-zombie spell I don't need to turn it into a body. That's the thing, you can only play so many cards, and holding on to all of them is often relatively unnecessary. Here, pitching zombies benefits our reanimation, and anything that isn't a zombie we can turn into one anyway. I get what you're saying though, and I think it depends on how one uses the card. It could very easily be abused to one's detriment.
I mean, I'm not hugely convinced by Archive. Given how much it costs, I'd rather have something else, and without Varina (or some other existing draw engine) it does nothing for 5. And at present, I'm pretty happy with hand size through different stages of the game, I can keep a good sized grip, so it doesn't strike me as being totally necessary. I'd prefer a reliable draw engine that doesn't require anything else in play to work.
Tithe tends to be more explosive if you are running a suite of tutors and mana rocks. If you can swing it, the goal is to get it out before T4. It's also about the best option Esper can hope for to create any sort of ramp.
We are in the disadvantageous position of being in black, but being unable to play Necropotence because we are one of the few decks that is going to consistently trigger it's downside. We are also at a disadvantage without green because Sylvan Library is off of the table. Nearly all of our options are only reliable when they interact with existing pieces. My experience remains that Varina ditches so many of her own resources while also playing cards every turn that it has to be addressed or you feel like you are topdecking the whole game.
I'll fully disclose that I run the main tutors in my own build, so maybe that's why I bank on having draw in some capacity, but I feel like you had might as well just assume that you will have some type of draw because, without it, you are probably going to lose with Varina anyway. Not having any draw online, Zombie Infestation in play or even some other card in play that fills its slot, is going to be an extremely difficult position to overcome because she will only ever loot on her own and the Zombie tokens she will generate from doing so are too insignificant to eliminate three players in combat. Between that and playing your own cards on your turns, you are, inevitably, going to run dry. I tend to lean heavily into drawing and, to be honest, I still feel like it's not enough. Undead Augur, especially if you are fortunate enough to combo it with Tombstone Stairwell, is going to help, but I'd still like even more.
Not all cards are going to be useful, and as I only run two permanents that even create a limitless handsize, I tend to assume that I have to discard beyond 7. If you are going to be pitching the worst options anyway during your end phase, might as well make more Zombies out of it.
I don’t disagree. I haven’t found myself top decking overly, but I’m very aware it’s a possibility in any game. I’m just not convinced that Archive is the best answer. Rhystic Study is probably the best we get, followed by Consecrated Sphinx, Nezahal, Primal Tide, maybe Notion Thief or River Kelpie? Not sure.
Fully agree. I don’t run tutors obviously, but regardless there’s always a)something you don’t need or b)something you’d prefer in the graveyard.
I definitely agree regarding draw. You need something whenever you’re casting Varina, so redundancy is important.
I like Nezahal, Primal Tide the best because it has self-protection which synergizes with Archfiend of Ifnir.
So is anyone actually leaning out of tribal synergies in favor of these "better but off-theme" options? Consecrated Sphinx is fantastic but once you start considering that and others, the deck is simply much better suited to be a control build that makes zombies with Varina to activate her ability.
The opinions are a bit all over the place in this thread, so I wanted to ask in general if Varina pilots in general prefer the power of bombs like Rooftop Storm and Army of the Damned, or if keeping the overall CMC of the deck low is preferable. My build is roughly 3.25 right now, which feels pretty speedy, but there are probably some more ways to get it down unless it's clear the advantage of running high cost synergy cards is worth keeping it up.
Also for what it's worth, here's some thoughts on cards being discussed more. I don't get the chance to play too much so threads like this are so so helpful for me to keep my deck in fighting shape between matches:
Zombie Infestation - since Varina came out, and i've almost never been in a position to take advantage of it's effect---i'm always valuing my hand size and having more options when Varina triggers, especially when her activated ability is so similar.
God-Eternal Oketra - auto-include
Archfiend of Ifnir - as stated, asymmetric boardwipes are insanely valuable.
Binding Mummy - think i saw someone here discount it, but that's a mistake...it can be really useful and is frequently undertargeted.
Tombstone Stairwell - need to be more strategic when this is deployed...haven't seen it's true power yet and hope to get it online in my favor soon.
Liliana, Untouched by Death - w/o Rooftop Storm i don't think it's great for a midrange tribal build. Maybe the other Lily's have better use but haven't tried yet
Havengul Lich - this one darts in and out of my build depending on how I feel about single vs. mass reanimation focus. Like mentioned, it's expensive at 5CMC and unless i'm specifically working to gut my opponent's graveyard for value I worry it's more often just a 4/4. Kept it in more a long time for flavor reasons (Lich clan anyone?) but removed it and Gisa and Geralf to focus spending my mana on interaction and new creatures, saving everything in my graveyard for the big plays.
Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord - counter to the above, maybe something like this is good to have for select instances of one-off recursion. Waiting for more opinions on how well it continues to run, but having a pseudo Whip of Erebos with loyalty-costed reanimation seems toolboxy enough even without the flavor.
Anointed Procession - when balancing tribal vs token build, its tough to decide on this, but overall I think it's still worth slotting since even tribal has a ton of incidental token dropping (Oketra, Diregraf, Varina, Noosegraf, etc.)
Smothering Tithe - even without wheels, it's worth it simply to draw out opponent removal or have them suffer the ramp consequences. If another player wheels well then it's payday.
Undead Augur - going to replace a low CMC zombie ASAP for more (scary) draw potential. Midnight Reaper stays in too.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier - I have no traditional tutors in the deck, but having one stapled to one creature can be incredibly helpful so I think it stays just for that. Deathtouch is cool.
The WAR Zombie token enablers are awesome, but other than Gleaming Overseer which comes down before Varina sometimes and makes 2 bodies, I can't imagine any of them replacing other utility slots in a tribal build. Again, token builds may feel differently.
So, the thing is, I've personally never intentionally built for tribal. We need some degree of zombies for her first ability, so I've always built with the intention of leaning into some of the better value that zombies have. Most of that comes in the form of 'zombies love company', and some of it is in terms looting, both of which work for Varina. When we consider draw for the deck, Seraphym is absolutely right; ideally we would want Necropotence, but that's a commodity we cannot have here, and it hurts. So we're a little hampered in terms of what we do have for optimal draw, which is why I suggest Consecrated Sphinx and such.
I expected this to happen, purely because she's wide open for builds, and as such isn't a commander you can 'solve'. Personally, I think there's a balance between splashy expensive spells and a low curve. I've talked in the past about my 5 slot being a bit of a hump, and I'm still playtesting for potential chops there. I can absolutely see why Rooftop Storm is in some builds, although I prefer not to have it in mine. Army of the Damned I honestly don't think much of. 13 Zombies entering tapped is well and good, but with Tombstone Stairwell I can get them and attack with them same turn.
I'll touch on some of the more pertinent considerations you've given here:
I have seen those non-tribal builds and I have to say, I am unimpressed. If Varina's ability triggered off of ANY attacking creature, or if her token generation cost 0, I'd say it's viable. However, the problem you run into is her ability gets exponentially better for every single Zombie in play and it won't take long before the player realizes that. My experience from watching them evolve is that, slowly, they will introduce additional sources of Zombie token generation, along with lords, and then you just end up with a Zombie tribal deck. Just about every tribal build I have ever seen includes a few non-tribal creatures, so considering Consecrated Sphinx doesn't require you to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
As for where to go with your curve, as I said earlier, it's complicated for us. We aren't Edgar Markov where we get a ton of value for cheap, vanilla creatures. A lot of the 2CC and 1CC Zombies are absolute garbage. Zombies also have a ton of lords. Your initial builds will often immediately find your 3CC slots overburdened with little place to go but up because the better Zombies all cost 3CC or more. I am of the opinion that if you want to lower your curve, your 2CC and 1 CC slots are better dedicated to mana rocks. There are a ton of them to pick from.
This is a flexible spot. As I said earlier, not all of your cards are valuable and, sometimes, I'd rather reach further into my deck with an additional Varina trigger than hold onto a couple of cards that might be relevant later.
Your best use of this behemoth is when you have two board conditions present at the same time. One, you need five or more creatures in your cemetery. The more, the better. Two, you need any of the Gravecrawler combo triggers other than the ones that require a hard cast: ie. Vengeful Dead, Diregraf Captain, Wayward Servant, Plague Belcher, etc. You can use it for other things too on your own turn, but where it gets silly is when those triggers are activating from putting those tokens into play or death.
As for the draw issue, Consecrated Sphinx could be a valuable addition. However, I disagree with Nezehal, Primal Tide. The particular ability that it has is best served when played as early as possible. 7CC is a lot of mana for an effect I would have rather had significantly earlier in the game. The only way I'd consider it is if you were already running Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora, Consecrated Sphinx, and then had an additional spot for it.
If we are considering Undead Augur, which I will preface by saying I agree its an autoinclude, I don't see why we wouldn't return to Graveborn Muse as well. Augur, like Archive, requires extra stuff to see a return. You either have to be killing off your own things or counting on your opponent to do it for you. Muse costs 2 more, but will at bare minimum, act as Phyrexian Arena on a body with nothing but itself in play. Even an additional Zombie token next to her nets you 3 cards immediately after your draw phase. Having the Muse in play with even just one other Zombie is hardly what I would call win more and gives you the same return as Sylvan Library for a fraction of the price.
Pretty much agree, here. Nezahal is Mystic Remora on a creature (different, but similar). It works well in my Dralnu build purely because I can bring it out via Reanimate or Animate Dead for a fraction of its casting cost. Sphinx is undoubtedly stronger in terms of draw power, and if that's what we're considering these for it has to get the nod.
This seems fair, too. You aren't required to remove your board presence to benefit from Muse, it's purely life that it demands. And you can still win the game from 1 life.
It's the only reason this is the sole black deck that I have that doesn't include Phyrexian Arena. I will gladly pay 1 more for the same effect on a recurable, tribe relevant body with the side benefit as acting as an additional Arena for every other Zombie. She can definitely get life hungry, but she's a creature. The ability is easy to turn off with a sacrifice. One of my other decks is Edgar Markovand I would kill for Champion of Dusk to have her ability.
https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/171/564/636947830813160880.png
It’s nice to hear this. I wish I could take all the credit, but a thread is nothing without a community to bounce ideas from, so I’m glad you found us all. If you have any questions or ideas for a build feel free to chime in!
You're very right about the delay! I forget that unless its late game it might not even make it around...that's why i removed some high CMC cards already so make sense to hold that philosophy.
Speaking of curve-dropping---i'm trying out Authority of the Consuls as more incidental life gain and a great light and early stax piece that interacts directly with opponent's tempo of dealing with combat.
Yeah, I mean my concern is making it worth casting. There's a few things that can go wrong with Crusade. The enchantment itself could get blown up, or your opponents let you buff your creatures then wipe before you can swing. Those are pretty standard scenarios obviously, so in one sense they're not worth worrying about overly, but if in the best case scenario you still can't make use of Crusade then it shouldn't be in here. The reason it's good in builds like Ghave, Guru of Spores (aside from being grotesque combo juice) is that you can otherwise use those counters on things like Spike Weaver or Ghave itself. We don't overly have that synergy, and in terms of combat I know I don't overly need my creatures to be huge to make an impact. I think in a lower curve tempo build Crusade could do some work if you land it early enough, but if you're casting it on curve you've really got to be able to make it work the turn you cast it, because it is a 'known' card, if you know what I mean.
I've considered using this, too. I think there's something to said for it as a moderate control piece, and I think you could say the same for Blind Obedience too - maybe more so, given the extort mechanic. They definitely give you a little more early game impetus to swing into a favourable board state while you dig for a game ender with Varina. My preference here is early ramp and draw, but I'd still like to hear how this plays out for you - my preferences are likely at least to some extent hangovers from building Dralnu, which runs some similar strategies.
I’ll keep you posted!
2 Zombie Infestation
2 Azorius Signet
2 Dimir Signet
2 Orzhov Signet
3 Windfall
2 Lazotep Reaver
4 Graveborn Muse
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Dreadhorde Invasion
2 Necromancer's Stockpile
5 Open the Graves
5 Black Market
1 Putrid Imp
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
1 Skullclamp
2 Nim Deathmantle
The 5 cmc enchantments were slow and laborious. Market in particular was precarious; big mana at one point during your own turn, contingent on death triggers and the enchanmtent surviving was just too corner case. Dreadhorde was ok, but no Bitterblossom. Too slow to really achieve anything significant. Imp and Ayli were ok, but I'd prefer to have a bigger impact than either provided (Ayli's third ability was why she was in here, and I can't remember the last time I got opportunity to use it). Deathmantle was often redundant, leaving clamp - the only card I'm slightly hesitant to remove. That being said, with 2/2's being the predominant token size it makes the draw that comes with Clamp more laborious to enable, and I don't run a glut of sacrifice outlets.
The signets were an easy addition in terms of colour fixing and early advantage. We've already discussed Infestation. I know there's some on the fence as to it's necessity, so I won't go over it again. I like the options it offers, so we'll see how it plays out. Windfall is great control and digs deep with draws, as well as giving me grave fodder. Reaver is ok, 2 bodies for one is nice. It may well be a placeholder with Modern Horizons' inclement release (see below), but we'll see. We've talked over Muse, too. I think it's worth trying. The life loss we can mitigate and sometimes even reverse, and I think there's a good chance it'll be worth it for the draw it offers, so let's give it a punt (in a similar vein, I'd also considered Corpse Augur, but foregoing it for now). Gary I haven't run here (at least to the best of my recollection), so it's worth a try given I can trigger it more than once.
There's still a few things I'm after at present. I've decided to get a few more mass reanimation spells in here, in the form of Zombie Apocalypse and Patriarch's Bidding - it's just a case of waiting for them to come into stock at my LGS. I have a little credit stored up, so it should be doable. As well as that, we have Modern Horizons coming through soon, too. There's not a lot of auto-include options, but there are a couple that are nice:
Yup!
Generous Gift I want to make some argument about Vindicate, but really, this is just going to be better almost all the time. In my list I have been running Jet Medallion since most of the list is black. There are non-black cards that it isn't helping with though, so it may not be the right call.
Winds of Abandon I think if you're not running Path of Exile it makes little sense to run this. I also think that the deck already has outs against large indestructible creatures with things like Living Death and Noxious Ghoul, not to mention Cyclonic Rift.
Cunning Evasion Don't think it's worth it here. Yuriko is another story.
Endling Do you find you have mana open to activate something like this very often? Strikes me as being fairly low impact.
Force of Despair This looks SOLID, but not sure we need it. I think it's meta-dependent.
Rank Officer I'm pretty underwhelmed
Silumgar Scavenger There are a few zombies that can get big, that are cheaper. Yeah, this flies, which is a weakness of the deck, to a degree, and it can have haste, but unless you're dropping this then sac'ing the rest of your board to power it up and swing, I don't see it being super-relevant all that often.
Etchings of the Chosen I'm torn, but it's an anthem, pseudo-protection, AND a sac outlet. I think individually it's not worth it, but with all those together, it may very well be! I'd want it in my Teysa deck, except I'd want to be able to protect the chosen creature type (Human) rather than have to sac the chosen type (likely Spirit).
Fallen Shinobi The way I've been playing, I rarely cast anything before combat once Varina is down, because I want to see what I get off the looting. I think this can be really decent, maybe exciting, but agree that 4/5 mana is a tough spot for this effect.
Unsettled Mariner Definitely plenty of strong non-creature permanents here, and especially in my build that this could make challenging to deal with. Not sure How I feel about the casting cost for an early drop, but it could find a slot.
Altar of Dementia Yeah. I think it's already pretty easy to fill the yard with Varina, so a self-targeted effect like this isn't necessary, and if you're not going infinite or HUGE with this effect, it's likely not enough to be relevant in an EDH game without additional milling support.
Yeah, the talismans are good. I'm hesitant to wheedle away too much life purely for mana fixing, but being able to produce 1 is nice too. I'm always a little hesitant to go all in on signets anyway on account of requiring 1 to activate, too. They'll do for now, but I think I might replace at least Azorius with a Talisman. You're right, the B is strong here.
I think we're pretty well on the same page about all of the upcoming releases. Generous Gift and Undead Augur are my only locks. In one way I'm sad to lose Vindicate, but Gift is superior in most cases. And, I very much play the same way combat wise. The deck is mana hungry, and I'm always keen to see what comes out of the loot before I tap out, so a lot of these combat tricks are a little wasted here. A lot of it is almost good enough, but not quite there, but the two obvious inclusions are really good.